Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[Dragonus45]

Okay, so, probably stupid but as someone who has seen the first twenty or so episodes of Jojo: How do Dio's enemies keep up with him? From what I know Dio neither is merciful nor too lazy to kill his opponents. If The World is so powerful how is the show still a thing and not "Dio rules the world"?

Well Jotaro Kujo's Star Platinum can do those things as well. Also Jotaro had a friend to get murdered first to give him a chance to understand DIOs powers and counter them.

[Traab]

But the thing is, Im not even sure its possible to truly kill alucard. Even pre schrodinger it would take millions of deaths to pull it off. All alucard has to do is get lucky once.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, so, probably stupid but as someone who has seen the first twenty or so episodes of Jojo: How do Dio's enemies keep up with him? From what I know Dio neither is merciful nor too lazy to kill his opponents. If The World is so powerful how is the show still a thing and not "Dio rules the world"?

At the beginning, DIO does not have The World, only basic vampire powers that are beaten by Hamon. By the time DIO gets The World, the protagonists acquire Stands who are in the same ballpark of power. Even so, two of them went down before the Jojo of the day was able to win - DIO is hardly a pushover.

But the thing is, Im not even sure its possible to truly kill alucard. Even pre schrodinger it would take millions of deaths to pull it off. All alucard has to do is get lucky once.

Alucard is simply not strong enough. Even luck won't close the gap between them. Imagine that you entered a series of death battle cage matches with an unarmed toddler, and also you could not get tired. Could the toddler get lucky eventually? No, there's no amount of luck that will help him.

[Celestia]

Alucard is simply not strong enough. Even luck won't close the gap between them. Imagine that you entered a series of death battle cage matches with an unarmed toddler, and also you could not get tired. Could the toddler get lucky eventually? No, there's no amount of luck that will help him.

Have you met a toddler before? If one of those monsters tried to kill me, I'd run home screaming.

[Flickerdart]

Have you met a toddler before? If one of those monsters tried to kill me, I'd run home screaming.

Toddlers in the real world have a convenient superpower - retribution against them is socially unacceptable. This is essentially their only ability, which is nullified in a no-holds-barred challenge.

The only other thing a toddler can do is ruin property. They combine a biting instinct with the ability to secrete diverse fluids, so when left alone, your things will inevitably end up chewed, sticky, and smelling like poop. But toddlers need time to do this. Normally they accomplish it through distracting their guardian, or biding their time until something else provides the distraction. But again, in this context, the toddler never gets the opportunity it needs.

[Rynjin]

Remember that Za Warudo gained the ability to stop time when DIO was doing his regular "catch all the pellets of a shotgun fired at me from point-blank range" exercise. He didn't just gain the ability to stop time, he started stopping time because he was moving so fast that it was the only way he could go faster.

"The World moves faster than light" is not borne out by...anything, at all, whatsoever in the source material.

It is very fast. It also has the ability to stop time. These two are not related abilities any more than Crazy Diamond's speed and power and its ability to fix things are related.

I don't think Alucard has demonstrated speed feats anywhere close to that. His extra lives are useless if he can't even touch DIO. DIO is also extremely cautious, so he's not likely to make a deadly mistake (which is how these things always tip towards the hero, or as close to a hero as Alucard is supposed to be, anyway).

...But Dio making a mistake is literally how Jotaro won

[Flickerdart]

...But Dio making a mistake is literally how Jotaro won

Yes, because Jotaro had the power to exploit that mistake - a Stand that was just as strong as The World.

[Rynjin]

I also think Alucard's dog-world...thing, whatever it is might be pretty effective at just surrounding Dio and ripping him apart.

I think we can all agree Eyes Over Heaven DIO wins hands down though.

[Anonymouswizard]

Okay, so, probably stupid but as someone who has seen the first twenty or so episodes of Jojo: How do Dio's enemies keep up with him? From what I know Dio neither is merciful nor too lazy to kill his opponents. If The World is so powerful how is the show still a thing and not "Dio rules the world"?

Long story short, Jotaro just happens to have a stand almost as strong and fast as The World and Dio is arrogant enough to be caught in a trap (if only barely). He not only manages to defeat every other stand user who goes up against him relatively easily, but is essentially winning until the last five subjective seconds of his fight with Jotaro. Although the reason it isn't 'Dio rules the world' is that Dio is not able to fully utilise The World's power at any point until possibly the end of the fight (and even then we don't know the true maximum of his time stop).

Spoiler

Show

The way I read it Jotaro only discovered Star Platinum's ability to stop time because Dio used it in their battle. Even then once Dio discovered it he actually attempted to discover how long Jotaro could move for and only lost because he didn't abuse his slightly longer duration to just pound Jotaro and Star Platinum into dust. I believe it's essentially established that Jotaro could never have reached the nine seconds Dio does at the end of the fight, so if he'd just focused on outpowering Jotaro he could have won a battle of attrition.

[Dragonus45]

"The World moves faster than light" is not borne out by...anything, at all, whatsoever in the source material.

Star Platinum is explicitly stated to have the power to move FTL during Stone Ocean. The World is a complicated stand but at the least its stated to be the same stand as Star Platinum and it moves just as fast. Reality is that it may simply have all the powers of the then living members of the Joestar Bloodline, although it only ever really uses the spirit photos. And really DIO did make some big mistakes in that last fight but to a degree that had a lot to do with the degree of his enemies and their abilities.

[Rynjin]

Haven't read Stone Ocean (only read through Stardust Crusaders years ago, just flowing with the anime now) so I'm not sure how accurate that is. Was the Stone Ocean translation any good?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I see the fight easily going nowhere, each fighter unable to deal any real damage to the other until they both decide the fight's simply no fun and just go home.

[Flickerdart]

I see the fight easily going nowhere, each fighter unable to deal any real damage to the other until they both decide the fight's simply no fun and just go home.

DIO is far too prideful to just give up, and I can't imagine Alucard not finding a battle fun.

[Rynjin]

Which leads us back to my original proposed outcome: The fight goes on, neither able to harm the other...until the sun comes up and DIO dies.

Or, more likely, DIO makes a strategic retreat at that point, since by part 3 his pride has been tempered a bit by a massive amount of caution and will to live. Hence willing to retreat, play dirty, etc. to win or survive. Dio is prideful to the point of stupidity, DIO is a survivor (though still a bit stupid).

[Lemmy]

BTW, I started watching JoJo a couple weeks ago, so I might as well ask you guys:

What's the order of the show's seasons?

[Anonymouswizard]

BTW, I started watching JoJo a couple weeks ago, so I might as well ask you guys:

What's the order of the show's seasons?

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (covers Part 1: Phantom Blood and Part 2: Battle Tendencies) -> JJBA Stardust Crusaders (Part 3 of the manga, watch the first half before the second half) -> JJBA Diamond is Unbreakable (Part 4 of the manga) -> why haven't they animated Part 5 already!?

Don't worry if the first part isn't particularly brilliant (I mean it's okay and has my favourite villain so far), the later parts are much better (Part 2 is a massive step up and then we argue over the best part, although Joseph is best JoJo).

[Rynjin]

Though his son Josuke definitely gives him a run for his money.

Literally.

[Celestia]

Question for discussion: In a Death Battle, would there be any character in all of fiction that would be an even match for the Lady of Pain?

[Lord Raziere]

Question for discussion: In a Death Battle, would there be any character in all of fiction that would be an even match for the Lady of Pain?

Depends, what are Lady Of Pain's feats and capabilities?

Well she killed at least one god with a single thought. Aoskar

how powerful is a DnD deity? how powerful was Aoskar?

lets see, they have a bunch of resistances, damage reduction and outright immunity to things like death effects, so the Lady of Pain if she can kill instantly with a thought, clearly bypasses their immunity.

so lets say that she is Overdeity level at least. because thats the model she fits best. how powerful is an Overdeity?

Lord Ao from Forgotten Realms is the model we have for that and he can enforce his will upon other gods and establish rules for how god interactions happen, so theoretically Ao and Lady of Pain are on the same level of godly hax.

But if Lady of Pain is statless while Ao does have stats, that would mean Lady of Pain is some even greater entity than an overdeity. Who knows how THAT works.

So I dunno, other "this is where the PC shenanigans stop" god-level characters? Zeno? Whatever DC Over-Entity that can kill superman with a single poke? The TTGL? Bugs Bunny? Who even knows.

[Celestia]

Depends, what are Lady Of Pain's feats and capabilities?

Well she killed at least one god with a single thought. Aoskar

how powerful is a DnD deity? how powerful was Aoskar?

lets see, they have a bunch of resistances, damage reduction and outright immunity to things like death effects, so the Lady of Pain if she can kill instantly with a thought, clearly bypasses their immunity.

so lets say that she is Overdeity level at least. because thats the model she fits best. how powerful is an Overdeity?

Lord Ao from Forgotten Realms is the model we have for that and he can enforce his will upon other gods and establish rules for how god interactions happen, so theoretically Ao and Lady of Pain are on the same level of godly hax.

But if Lady of Pain is statless while Ao does have stats, that would mean Lady of Pain is some even greater entity than an overdeity. Who knows how THAT works.

So I dunno, other "this is where the PC shenanigans stop" god-level characters? Zeno? Whatever DC Over-Entity that can kill superman with a single poke? The TTGL? Bugs Bunny? Who even knows.

Whatever she is, she's not a god. Gods require faith and worship to survive. Lady of Pain brutally and messilly butchers anyone who tries to worship her. So she's clearly something else.

[Kitten Champion]

I think it's pretty much impossible to weigh one abstract omnipotent figure against another, you'd simply end up picking the one that appears the most impressive to you personally. There's no reliable scale on which you can balance them upon that would hold any meaning to us in the real world.

[Flickerdart]

The Lady does not do enough things for her to be able to compete. Her limits have not been shown, but that doesn't mean she has no limits.

[Knaight]

Whatever she is, she's not a god. Gods require faith and worship to survive. Lady of Pain brutally and messilly butchers anyone who tries to worship her. So she's clearly something else.

She doesn't fit within the Planescape definition of a god. She fits pretty well within non-setting-jargon definitions.

[Lord Raziere]

Whatever she is, she's not a god. Gods require faith and worship to survive. Lady of Pain brutally and messilly butchers anyone who tries to worship her. So she's clearly something else.

Lord Ao and overdeities don't care about worshippers or granting spells either, to the point where only a few scholars even KNOW about them, so somehow on the road between a greater god and overdeity, you go from having millions of worshippers to sustain you, to somehow being more powerful yet not needing even more worshippers to sustain your power. Which is a very weird and unexplained part of DnD rules.

[Flickerdart]

Lord Ao and overdeities don't care about worshippers or granting spells either, to the point where only a few scholars even KNOW about them, so somehow on the road between a greater god and overdeity, you go from having millions of worshippers to sustain you, to somehow being more powerful yet not needing even more worshippers to sustain your power. Which is a very weird and unexplained part of DnD rules.

The way I see it, Ao is worshiped by the other gods. That's a better source of power than any piddly mortals could ever muster.

[Dragonus45]

Lord Ao and overdeities don't care about worshippers or granting spells either, to the point where only a few scholars even KNOW about them, so somehow on the road between a greater god and overdeity, you go from having millions of worshippers to sustain you, to somehow being more powerful yet not needing even more worshippers to sustain your power. Which is a very weird and unexplained part of DnD rules.

There is a very brief and occasional mention of there being some cosmic force above even the overdieties. I imagine that in order to maintain the integrity of an overdeities responsibilities they get set up with an alternate source of power that way they can do their job without worry of how it will affect worship.

[Doorhandle]

Okay, so, probably stupid but as someone who has seen the first twenty or so episodes of Jojo: How do Dio's enemies keep up with him? From what I know Dio neither is merciful nor too lazy to kill his opponents. If The World is so powerful how is the show still a thing and not "Dio rules the world"?

Dio's downfall is mostly that he took on someone with powers as broken as his. THE WORLD can 'only' stop time for 5 relative seconds, and Dio did not figure out how to move when someone else stopped time, unlike Jotaro, allowing the latter to beat him when his powers developed. Physically, the two stands are pretty evenly matched, and Dio was technically stronger in the same way that a 6.1ft man is slightly stronger than a 6.0ft man.

However, Dio has one of the other cliche villain weaknesses: He loves to grandstand. He knows the heros are no threat to him and until Jotaro's powers fully develop he's entirely correct.
In Jotaro's defence, he is both tough enough (surviving a barrage of knives with only shonen jump as protection, surviving temporarily stopping his own heart, ect.) and clever enough (using his stand to block when time's stopped, faking his death to get the drop on Dio, ect) to tank though the onslaught, but even then Dio probably should've targeted him first: it might have worked after the third steamroller.

Lord Ao and overdeities don't care about worshippers or granting spells either, to the point where only a few scholars even KNOW about them, so somehow on the road between a greater god and overdeity, you go from having millions of worshippers to sustain you, to somehow being more powerful yet not needing even more worshippers to sustain your power. Which is a very weird and unexplained part of DnD rules.

No, they realise the worship was inside them, all along!

On topic, the one thing that might threaten the lady of pain is being worshipped. It hasn't been discussed exactly why she hates it, but it might be because worship would "downgrade" her to a god, or it might disrupt the balance of power in sigil, or it might even physically harm her. It's not much of a threat, but it's something.

If it was actually run on the show, the deciding factor might be the fact that she was once overwhelmed by Vecna of all people during "Die Vecna, Die!" and that was written in a canon source, as much as people may wish it wasn't. Ao, in contrast, has not been debilitated by an upstart lich-god at any point, which may be enough to claim victory.

[Dragonus45]

Dio's downfall is mostly that he took on someone with powers as broken as his. THE WORLD can 'only' stop time for 5 relative seconds, and Dio did not figure out how to move when someone else stopped time, unlike Jotaro, allowing the latter to beat him when his powers developed. Physically, the two stands are pretty evenly matched, and Dio was technically stronger in the same way that a 6.1ft man is slightly stronger than a 6.0ft man.

However, Dio has one of the other cliche villain weaknesses: He loves to grandstand. He knows the heros are no threat to him and until Jotaro's powers fully develop he's entirely correct.
In Jotaro's defence, he is both tough enough (surviving a barrage of knives with only shonen jump as protection, surviving temporarily stopping his own heart, ect.) and clever enough (using his stand to block when time's stopped, faking his death to get the drop on Dio, ect) to tank though the onslaught, but even then Dio probably should've targeted him first: it might have worked after the third steamroller.


No, they realise the worship was inside them, all along!

On topic, the one thing that might threaten the lady of pain is being worshipped. It hasn't been discussed exactly why she hates it, but it might be because worship would "downgrade" her to a god, or it might disrupt the balance of power in sigil, or it might even physically harm her. It's not much of a threat, but it's something.

If it was actually run on the show, the deciding factor might be the fact that she was once overwhelmed by Vecna of all people during "Die Vecna, Die!" and that was written in a canon source, as much as people may wish it wasn't. Ao, in contrast, has not been debilitated by an upstart lich-god at any point, which may be enough to claim victory.

Vecna definitely cheated there, although the manner he cheated in involved holding Sigil hostage so that is also something to consider as a potential weakness of hers. Hold that place hostage and you gain a distinct edge.

[Lemmy]

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (covers Part 1: Phantom Blood and Part 2: Battle Tendencies) -> JJBA Stardust Crusaders (Part 3 of the manga, watch the first half before the second half) -> JJBA Diamond is Unbreakable (Part 4 of the manga) -> why haven't they animated Part 5 already!?

Don't worry if the first part isn't particularly brilliant (I mean it's okay and has my favourite villain so far), the later parts are much better (Part 2 is a massive step up and then we argue over the best part, although Joseph is best JoJo).

I gotta be honest here: The first part is cringe-worthy bad...><'

[Doorhandle]

I gotta be honest here: The first part is cringe-worthy bad...><'

Eeeh, it still has it's moments...all of which are near the end when it actually gets to the point. The first 2-or-so episodes don't do it many favors though.