Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[Kitten Champion]

Isn't the whole point of a symbiote is that it needs a host/partner to function?
Without a host, isn't Venom just a puddle of black goo?

No, the symbiote can function individually and do things like turn into humanoid form to attack on its own. It's also sapient and reasonably intelligent.

[Doorhandle]

Wait, guys, I get the connection now! The riddle is solved!


Remember this death battle years back? The connection is that it's two of these hero's nemesis up to battle against each-other!


...I still think it's stupid though; it doesn't quite have the potential of Alex Mercer vs Venom. Then again, they might not have sprites/cg for the former...

[Kato]

It is indeed a weird and at first glance one-sided battle.
I'm hardly really knowledgeable about Bane but I can't think of any really impressive feats of his. Venom doesn't break physics either but he is quite a bit more superhuman than Bane. But maybe I'm missing something...

Also: which venom? Flash Thompson?

[Lemmy]

Bane is juiced up on a drug called Venom... yeah. There is your connection folks.

'Also, their masks are kinda similar... And they were introduced as dark versions of their hero antagonists... And that's about it.

[Celestia]

Also: which venom? Flash Thompson?

I'm assuming Eddie Brock since he's the first and most famous.

And this does seem hilariously one-sided.

[Traab]

I think cartoon/comic bane is far tougher than movie bane. Im not sure what sort of feats he has pulled off, but im fairly sure he is car tossing strong and brick wall crashing through tough at least. Which gives him a decent physical level for a fist fight with venom. He loses big time on agility and maneuverability though. Here is a wiki blurb,

Bane is highly intelligent; in Bane of the Demon, Ra's al Ghul says that Bane "has a mind equal to the greatest he has known" (although he dismisses Bane's intellect as the cunning of an animal rather than the cultured, trained intellect of Batman). His strength gives him more ways to go against Batman. Bane has shown to be capable of lifting 15 tons.[12] In prison, he taught himself various scientific disciplines equal to the level of understanding of leading experts in those fields.[4] He knows ten active languages and at least four additional arcane and dead ones. Among these are Spanish, English, French, German, Russian, Mandarin, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and Latin.[12][52] The Bane of the Demon storyline reveals that he has an eidetic memory. Within one year, he is able to deduce Batman's secret identity.[12]He is also highly devious and a superb strategist and tactician.[4] In prison, Bane also invented his own form of calisthenics, meditation, and a fighting style that he uses against other well-known martial arts fighters within the DC Universe

So basically he is really smart, very clever, and is superhuman in strength, though not on par with venom, as well as being a decent martial artist. He is still at a disadvantage, but it might not be a total stomp fest.

[Flickerdart]

It sounds like Bane is way beneath Spider-man, who is Venom's equal. It doesn't seem like he has a chance.

[Celestia]

Bane would be great against so many potential adversaries, but Venom is just too much. As smart as Bane is, Venom's physical abilities are simply too far beyond his. If given time to prepare and set up traps, I'm sure Bane could out maneuver Venom and possibly even figure out at least one of Venom's weaknesses, but that's not how Death Battle operates. In their gladiator arenas, the sledgehammer always beats the watch.

[Traab]

It sounds like Bane is way beneath Spider-man, who is Venom's equal. It doesn't seem like he has a chance.

Spiderman averages ten tons or so of lifting power on average, though he has been known to exceed that under duress. Basically the normal mom lifting a car type of scenarios. So physical strength wise, bane has an edge over spiderman, almost certainly in durability as well. And one of the biggest reasons venom is a tough fight for spiderman is because his spider sense doesnt work on him, which is a major handicap for spiderman. Bane has no such sense that he couldnt use against venom. Venom is 2-3 times stronger though.

[Rynjin]

I think cartoon/comic bane is far tougher than movie bane. Im not sure what sort of feats he has pulled off, but im fairly sure he is car tossing strong and brick wall crashing through tough at least. Which gives him a decent physical level for a fist fight with venom. He loses big time on agility and maneuverability though. Here is a wiki blurb,

Bane is highly intelligent; in Bane of the Demon, Ra's al Ghul says that Bane "has a mind equal to the greatest he has known" (although he dismisses Bane's intellect as the cunning of an animal rather than the cultured, trained intellect of Batman). His strength gives him more ways to go against Batman. Bane has shown to be capable of lifting 15 tons.[12] In prison, he taught himself various scientific disciplines equal to the level of understanding of leading experts in those fields.[4] He knows ten active languages and at least four additional arcane and dead ones. Among these are Spanish, English, French, German, Russian, Mandarin, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and Latin.[12][52] The Bane of the Demon storyline reveals that he has an eidetic memory. Within one year, he is able to deduce Batman's secret identity.[12]He is also highly devious and a superb strategist and tactician.[4] In prison, Bane also invented his own form of calisthenics, meditation, and a fighting style that he uses against other well-known martial arts fighters within the DC Universe

So basically he is really smart, very clever, and is superhuman in strength, though not on par with venom, as well as being a decent martial artist. He is still at a disadvantage, but it might not be a total stomp fest.

15 tons is great.

Venom can apparently lift up to 70 (confirmed, he apparently has no known max limit). So, he is nearly 5 times as strong as Bane.

Discounting any of his other powers (up to and including just diving into Bane's mouth or through his nose and ripping him apart from the inside out), he wins the straight up slugfest.

[Kitten Champion]

15 tons is great.

Venom can apparently lift up to 70 (confirmed, he apparently has no known max limit). So, he is nearly 5 times as strong as Bane.

Discounting any of his other powers (up to and including just diving into Bane's mouth or through his nose and ripping him apart from the inside out), he wins the straight up slugfest.

He's also considerably more durable and possesses very efficient regenerative abilities.

Still, Bane will win for some reason.

[Rynjin]

He's also considerably more durable and possesses very efficient regenerative abilities.

Still, Bane will win for some reason.

"But Bane is a hot-blooded fighter, and therefore he is the bane of Venom's existence. Bane wins!"

[Knaight]

Spiderman averages ten tons or so of lifting power on average, though he has been known to exceed that under duress. Basically the normal mom lifting a car type of scenarios. So physical strength wise, bane has an edge over spiderman, almost certainly in durability as well. And one of the biggest reasons venom is a tough fight for spiderman is because his spider sense doesnt work on him, which is a major handicap for spiderman. Bane has no such sense that he couldnt use against venom. Venom is 2-3 times stronger though.

Ten tons is vastly more than almost anything that can be reasonably called a car weighs, and even when one gets into trucks it tends to take heavy duty shipping trucks (but not straight up 18 wheelers) to hit 10 tons. Bane might still have an edge over Spiderman, but it's debatable at best. Reasonably Venom has an advantage.

With that said, it's not like comic book artists are running calculations for all the car throws and wall breaks they draw, so it likely comes down to cherry picking one panel somewhere, making a bunch of dubious calculations based on it, and then abusing that "data".

[Doorhandle]

With that said, it's not like comic book artists are running calculations for all the car throws and wall breaks they draw, so it likely comes down to cherry picking one panel somewhere, making a bunch of dubious calculations based on it, and then abusing that "data".

So, death battle as we already know it.

Training may also come into it: Bane has more experience as a brawler due to being raised in prison and self-teaching martial arts, while Brock didn't start fighting until he put on the suit.
It's what won the match between Star Fox and Bucky O'hare.

[Forum Explorer]

He's also considerably more durable and possesses very efficient regenerative abilities.

Still, Bane will win for some reason.

Why do you think so?

They've had a lot of really obvious stomps;

Donald Duck vs Shovel Knight

Thor vs Raiden

Flash vs Quicksilver

and each time the winner was exactly who you'd expect it to be. Also those episodes don't tend to be very interesting because of it. 2 Stomps in a row is pretty bad though.

[Knaight]

They've had a lot of really obvious stomps;
...
and each time the winner was exactly who you'd expect it to be. Also those episodes don't tend to be very interesting because of it. 2 Stomps in a row is pretty bad though.

On the other hand, they also had more than a few that are just bizarre - Link winning Link vs. Cloud is probably the most obvious one, with exactly the sort of cherry picking I was talking about (although I don't remember any straight up unit screwups, so there's that).

[Prime32]

Training may also come into it: Bane has more experience as a brawler due to being raised in prison and self-teaching martial arts, while Brock didn't start fighting until he put on the suit.
It's what won the match between Star Fox and Bucky O'hare.

Venom has Spider-Sense, though, which was declared a hard counter to Batman.

They could also try going with "Venom can copy the powers of all its past hosts, even if it's never been shown doing so"... which going by the Marvel wiki would result in it having the combined abilities of at the very least Spider-Man + Deadpool + Scorpion + Red Hulk + Ghost Rider + Groot + Rocket Raccoon + Drax the Destroyer + Mercurio + Reed Richards + Carol Danvers + Kulan Gath.

On the other hand, they could go with "Bane would have fire and sonic weapons lying around just in case he had to fight someone like Venom" or "Venom tries taking over Bane but his body is too poisonous and it weakens him enough for Bane to win".

[Traab]

Venom has Spider-Sense, though, which was declared a hard counter to Batman.

They could also try going with "Venom can copy the powers of all its past hosts, even if it's never been shown doing so"... which going by the Marvel wiki would result in it having the combined abilities of at the very least Spider-Man + Deadpool + Scorpion + Red Hulk + Ghost Rider + Groot + Rocket Raccoon + Drax the Destroyer + Mercurio + Reed Richards + Carol Danvers + Kulan Gath.

On the other hand, they could go with "Bane would have fire and sonic weapons lying around just in case he had to fight someone like Venom" or "Venom tries taking over Bane but his body is too poisonous and it weakens him enough for Bane to win".

They generally dont do either of those things. If Bane was known to carry around flamethrowers or sonic guns for various reasons then sure, but I doubt they will have him get interrupted in a fight with mr freeze so he luckily has the appropriate loadout. Same for venom. They are clearly going for the eddy brock version of him, so it seems likely they will only draw from that version of canon for things he has actually done. Its not absolutely certain sure, but most of the time they at least try to pretend to not be fixing the fight.

[Forum Explorer]

On the other hand, they also had more than a few that are just bizarre - Link winning Link vs. Cloud is probably the most obvious one, with exactly the sort of cherry picking I was talking about (although I don't remember any straight up unit screwups, so there's that).

I'd argue that one wasn't obvious. Cloud's strength is pretty variable, and for someone who didn't create a powerful Cloud, Link does look like the stronger of the two. He doesn't have that many impressive feats from the movie or cinematic scenes. And the fighting is wonky and we know it can't be literal, so that's subject to interpretation as well.

I'd say that the version of Cloud they used lost correctly, though I acknowledge that they used a particularly weak version of Cloud. On the other hand, that's also the version of Cloud that you see in other fighting games and crossovers, and in the movie, so I guess it's kinda justified?


Yaang vs Yuffie was just stupid though.

[digiman619]

Yaang vs Yuffie was just stupid though.

And right after they paired up with Rooster Teeth. What are the odds?

[Traab]

I'd argue that one wasn't obvious. Cloud's strength is pretty variable, and for someone who didn't create a powerful Cloud, Link does look like the stronger of the two. He doesn't have that many impressive feats from the movie or cinematic scenes. And the fighting is wonky and we know it can't be literal, so that's subject to interpretation as well.

I'd say that the version of Cloud they used lost correctly, though I acknowledge that they used a particularly weak version of Cloud. On the other hand, that's also the version of Cloud that you see in other fighting games and crossovers, and in the movie, so I guess it's kinda justified?


Yaang vs Yuffie was just stupid though.

Its rehashing an old argument thats gone back and forth since the first death battle subject went up, but the fact that they went pretty extensively into links gear loadouts and gave cloud bupkiss is the main source of the annoyance. Noones saying they should have given cloud 100% counter attack quad attack kotr blah blah blah cheese combos, but they gave him his weakest stuff possible while link got decent mid and upper range gear. Not HIS best, but still far more than cloud was given. The whole fight felt like it was designed specifically to make link win. Even the magic cloud got was specifically only included to show off links reflective shield ability.

[Forum Explorer]

Its rehashing an old argument thats gone back and forth since the first death battle subject went up, but the fact that they went pretty extensively into links gear loadouts and gave cloud bupkiss is the main source of the annoyance. Noones saying they should have given cloud 100% counter attack quad attack kotr blah blah blah cheese combos, but they gave him his weakest stuff possible while link got decent mid and upper range gear. Not HIS best, but still far more than cloud was given. The whole fight felt like it was designed specifically to make link win. Even the magic cloud got was specifically only included to show off links reflective shield ability.

I know. (Actually, I remember people saying Cloud should have gotten his absolute best, but whatever). I wouldn't say it's his weakest stuff possible. My end game Cloud was actually a lot weaker then theirs. But it's a lot further from his peak power then the Link they used.

Point is, there is some overlap and doubt on which one is stronger, depending on which Link and which Cloud. Cloud may be stronger and should've won, but it's not an obvious stomp.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, with Cloud, it was so subjective to what he got. It all depended on who played him. Link's gear is pretty much predestined to him. Not only that, we don't know what kind of gear Cloud himself would choose. Other then the Buster Sword. Cloud doesn't seem to be that inclined to Materia in the first place.

[Mato]

Cloud doesn't seem to be that inclined to Materia in the first place.

He's also not nearly as powerful as people think he is either.

Early FF games were notorious for battle sequences taking place in alternative realities. It's why Cloud's group are terrified of guns even through the enemy firing them could need fifty clips to kill them in battle or how a sword through the stomach permanently kills someone even through in battle they can survive the solar system from exploding without even needing to burn through their stock of feathers that resurrect the dead. So a suspect a large reason people might think Cloud should have won sorely comes from Advent Children but often overlooked is Cloud is expressly gaining power from the entire planet for most of the film. And it's a confirmed temporary power boost that only came around when he defends the planet from Jenova because everyone else had it as well and they lost it after they finished defending the planet during the events of FFVII. In a solo fight, against another good guy, Cloud's best is barely defending him self from shadow cats while on a bike fleeing, with nothing more than a sword and apparently none-working ribbon.

Even some of Link's less vague starting points, such as a kid on the farm able to stop charging bulls with his bare hands and dance around on the battle field with a stick better than anyone else in the game, may lack extended experience but it's already functioning at Cloud's level of skills and clearly above human levels as well. Like in LttP he clears an entire castle full of highly trained knights and royal guards and in Zelda the guy never even picked up a sword until the morning of his adventure and technically he either clears the first six dungeons full of monsters and multi-headed dragons with a wooden stick.

Point of discussion is if you feel the young adult and trained solider needs legendary equipment before squaring off against a nine year old kid in pajamas you've already subconsciously accepted Link's superior capabilities.

[Doorhandle]

He's also not nearly as powerful as people think he is either.

Early FF games were notorious for battle sequences taking place in alternative realities. It's why Cloud's group are terrified of guns even through the enemy firing them could need fifty clips to kill them in battle or how a sword through the stomach permanently kills someone even through in battle they can survive the solar system from exploding without even needing to burn through their stock of feathers that resurrect the dead. So a suspect a large reason people might think Cloud should have won sorely comes from Advent Children but often overlooked is Cloud is expressly gaining power from the entire planet for most of the film. And it's a confirmed temporary power boost that only came around when he defends the planet from Jenova because everyone else had it as well and they lost it after they finished defending the planet during the events of FFVII. In a solo fight, against another good guy, Cloud's best is barely defending him self from shadow cats while on a bike fleeing, with nothing more than a sword and apparently none-working ribbon.

Even some of Link's less vague starting points, such as a kid on the farm able to stop charging bulls with his bare hands and dance around on the battle field with a stick better than anyone else in the game, may lack extended experience but it's already functioning at Cloud's level of skills and clearly above human levels as well. Like in LttP he clears an entire castle full of highly trained knights and royal guards and in Zelda the guy never even picked up a sword until the morning of his adventure and technically he either clears the first six dungeons full of monsters and multi-headed dragons with a wooden stick.

Point of discussion is if you feel the young adult and trained soldier needs legendary equipment before squaring off against a nine year old kid in pajamas you've already subconsciously accepted Link's superior capabilities.

What about supernova though? It's a multi-planet buster, and Cloud can survive it, which basically puts him on DBZ level; even in an alternate reality.
Plus, if the fight-woosh really is an alternate reality where Cloud is stronger, wouldn't Link be inside it by dint of attacking Cloud or vice-versa in the first place?

Back to Deathbattle, I would at least want a video of them playing final fantasy VII, using the same equipment as in the video (so the starting sword, ribbon, and nothing else probably), to at least prove that he's not strong enough to tank that without endgame equipment.

Plus, they mention in every description that it's "the most powerful version of the character, at their full potential," so they should really be looking as some sort of optimisation guide as a source for what they can do. Going from "winning against sephiroth" to "one-hitting sephiroth" would probably change the results a bit...

[Kato]

Frankly, trying to include JRPG characters, or many RPG chars in general, is doomed from the beginning. Their power scale is too wide open towards the top, albeit it is often hard to measure in proper physical units. But considering what some attacks do, i.e. blowing up solar systems, it just makes little sense.

Granted, the same goes for many other characters but JRPGs love to have their final battles at extreme levels to look cool. Of course, then there is Superman lifting infinite mass, so...

BTW, I feel like venom taking over bane would be an interesting end for the next fight.

[Traab]

Pfft, if you want to pick feats, how about watching as link swings his sword a half a dozen times and only manages to piss off a chicken so much that it calls in a swarm to peck him to death? How is someone so weak they cant manage to kill standard poultry supposed to be a threat to cloud? Since these armed knights and monsters are clearly far weaker than a chicken, how can we be impressed by Link doing the equivalent of wiping out a nursing home for quadriplegics?

[Knaight]

Even some of Link's less vague starting points, such as a kid on the farm able to stop charging bulls with his bare hands and dance around on the battle field with a stick better than anyone else in the game, may lack extended experience but it's already functioning at Cloud's level of skills and clearly above human levels as well. Like in LttP he clears an entire castle full of highly trained knights and royal guards and in Zelda the guy never even picked up a sword until the morning of his adventure and technically he either clears the first six dungeons full of monsters and multi-headed dragons with a wooden stick.

Link is undeniably highly capable, and being instantly skilled in any weapon he comes across is a significant part of his shtick. As far as the bulls go though, those were goats, and the reasoning for the victory came down to a magic lifting item that demonstrably didn't make Link's strikes stronger making his strikes stronger. He also gets dropped relatively quickly when struck, and the Zelda series in general doesn't do planet destroying effects - with one notable exception where you reverse time and don't just take a moon to the face. It's much more grounded than that in a way that FF7 isn't.

[Mato]

What about supernova though? It's a multi-planet buster, and Cloud can survive it, which basically puts him on DBZ level; even in an alternate reality.

Thanks for

Early FF games were notorious for battle sequences taking place in alternative realities.

how a sword through the stomach permanently kills someone even through in battle they can survive the solar system from exploding without even needing to burn through their stock of feathers that resurrect the dead.

Not reading my post.

Battle theatrics are nothing more than theatrics, they are impossible to explain or logically use. Like how does Supernova blow up the sun and take out all the planets if four rounds ago they were already blown up? Why is Sephiroth chasing an uber legendary Materia capable of throwing a huge rock at a planet to destroy all life on it if he can casually destroy the solar system for a mere 9,300 damage? Obvious answer: It never blew anything up in the first place. It is an irreverent example held in contradiction to all the story, most depictions, dialogue, it's self, and not worth bringing up in any rational discussion.

[Lemmy]

Thanks for

Not reading my post.

Battle theatrics are nothing more than theatrics, they are impossible to explain or logically use. Like how does Supernova blow up the sun and take out all the planets if four rounds ago they were already blown up? Why is Sephiroth chasing an uber legendary Materia capable of throwing a huge rock at a planet to destroy all life on it if he can casually destroy the solar system for a mere 9,300 damage? Obvious answer: It never blew anything up in the first place.

Then arguably, while fighting, Cloud should use FF battle physics, not world-exploring physics (not a lot of NPC meeting in DB, after all). Which means he'd have all the resilience and powers displayed IN COMBAT, not those he displays while wandering around the world map.