Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[Dragonus45]

Give me a reason why 18 should win then.

Aside from having enough power to vaporize a planet, and clearly having physical feats on a level with Binary the nature of the "Androids", actually cyborgs, of DBZ is that their power source engines are essentially perpetual energy machines meaning she doesn't tire or run into stamina issues. Add in that while Danvers is military and would clearly have a degree of hand to hand training and experience 18 has technique from being a dedicated martial artist. Plus if 17's recent showing are anything to go by she has a much higher upper limit than her nature as a cyborg would indicate. Add in that we are likely to see some excellent feats from her against enemies from other dimensions to get a better scale for her power, with her already being clearly one of the strongest beings in universe 7 anyways its hard to get a gauge on exactly where she sits, and you get an enemy that could probably rival much heavier cosmic powers hitters like Silver Surfer, Quasar, or possibly even Captain Universe. Binary is strong but not that strong.

[McNum]

As far as I can tell, the next fight will come down to one question, then. Can 18 tank Carol's best shot? If so, 18 wins by attrition. The only way to really take down 17 or 18 is to hit them once far beyond what they can take. Chipping away at them doesn't work. Amusingly, they're quite binary like that. Effortlessly blocking your attack or dead in one shot. No in between.

[digiman619]

Spoiler: I know the fight is a dramatization and they choose the winner before plotting out the fight, but...

Show

I gotta call BS on Sub-Zero ice-cloning himself out of a Glacius' move. There's a fighting game term for when being hit doesn't stop you from finishing your move. It's called informally super-armor after its appearance in the Capcom vs series. I can't help but note two things, however.
1) Outside of unplayable bosses, super-armor has never been a thing in Mortal Kombat, and
2) Super-armor does nothing against grapples, which is clearly what Gladius is dong to him.

Sorry, but that was bugging me.

[Rynjin]

Zero's ice clone is an escape move though, I'm pretty sure. It doesn't have super armor, but it does have iframes. Admittedly, my Mortal Kombat meta knowledge is pretty low.

[Iamyourking]

In the begrudging defense of the Death Battle team, they do prefer to go for hard numbers when it comes to determining the capability of the fighters; and Dragonball is both quite reluctant to provide those and somewhat inconsistent in depicting what their characters can do-especially given Super and its recent tendency to allow characters to keep up with the divine Goku and Vegeta given shockingly small amounts of training.

That said, 18 was originally slightly weaker than 17; but I think it is safe to call them pretty much equal now, given that she has Krillin as a reliable training partner and has taken part in a few real fights while he has had to train by himself and has only had completely non-threatening poachers to fight. 17 was capable of fighting Goku-who by this point could probably destroy a significant portion of the universe-on equal footing. Even if we assume that Goku was holding back far more than 17 (Which is about the only way for his sparring matches against the other fighters, minus Gohan, to even remotely make sense), he-and by extension 18-must be ludicrously strong at this point.

[chainer1216]

and your reasoning there is exactly why 18 is going to lose. shes never DONE anything, the only way we can guess at her power is through transitive property, which is a no no in death battle.

[Iamyourking]

Being able to deflect a blast from SSB Goku is something, but given that we don't know how strong that blast was, other than "very", it doesn't really help. However, I do expect that the tournament will give them lots of information to work with.

[McNum]

Being able to deflect a blast from SSB Goku is something, but given that we don't know how strong that blast was, other than "very", it doesn't really help. However, I do expect that the tournament will give them lots of information to work with.

The tournament will air after the Death Battle, though. We're still a handful of weeks away from that starting.

That's why I said it's too early to do this. In 2-3 months, the result could have been upended completely by Dragon Ball Super. It can hardly be considered "once and for all" when one of the participants is about to fight the biggest battle she has fought, probably ever, right after the Death Battle has aired.

[Lord Raziere]

The tournament will air after the Death Battle, though. We're still a handful of weeks away from that starting.

That's why I said it's too early to do this. In 2-3 months, the result could have been upended completely by Dragon Ball Super. It can hardly be considered "once and for all" when one of the participants is about to fight the biggest battle she has fought, probably ever, right after the Death Battle has aired.

Exactly my point. Death Battle is basically taking the opportunity to pass judgement and troll the Dragon Ball fandom by doing this, saying she loses right as Dragon Ball Super is popular and going into its most powerful biggest arc. The timing is too convenient.

[Traab]

Here is the other thing that could really swing results. Doesnt marvel girl absorb energy attacks? That would basically leave our resident cyborg with nothing but physical attacks to work with if thats how it works.

[Anteros]

The tournament will air after the Death Battle, though. We're still a handful of weeks away from that starting.

That's why I said it's too early to do this. In 2-3 months, the result could have been upended completely by Dragon Ball Super. It can hardly be considered "once and for all" when one of the participants is about to fight the biggest battle she has fought, probably ever, right after the Death Battle has aired.

They did the same thing with Goku vs Superman round 2. They played it off as definitive when we didn't even know anything about Super Saiyan God's level of power yet so they posted a bunch of crap about how Goku could never possibly catch up to Supes when they didn't even know what Goku was capable of. We found out Goku could bust the entire universe on accident like 2 weeks after the death battle, and he's only gotten stronger since then.

For people who care about "science" and "evidence" they certainly don't seem to actually want to gather any kind of evidence except what will support whatever narrative they're pushing.

[Kato]

It's always a mistake to bring any DB character into DB, huh?
Frankly, the fan base can be just so poisonous...
But this time it's not Superman who they are fighting. Ms marvel is powerful but far from him. I feel there is a good chance, this time DB fans won't have reason to complain.
But let's wait and see.

[Lord Raziere]

It's always a mistake to bring any DB character into DB, huh?
Frankly, the fan base can be just so poisonous...
But this time it's not Superman who they are fighting. Ms marvel is powerful but far from him. I feel there is a good chance, this time DB fans won't have reason to complain.
But let's wait and see.

Dude, they tilted Superman. They weren't fair to either Goku or Superman. the pages they showed as evidence to claim that Superman's power was "infinite" and whatnot? actually turns out he didn't actually do that stuff, he didn't actually lift infinity and in another instance he needed teamwork for defeating the eternal thing. those were taken out of context.

they'll find a way, its either that or they will do a sudden 180 so that they can CLAIM they aren't biased and make Android 18 win in some bull manner that doesn't make sense, just to enrage both anime AND comic book fans.

[Anteros]

I don't think DB fans really care about 18 very much, and I don't think comic fans really care about Captain Marvel that much. I doubt there will be any huge outcry either way this time.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think DB fans really care about 18 very much, and I don't think comic fans really care about Captain Marvel that much. I doubt there will be any huge outcry either way this time.

Counterpoint: Murphys Law.

still doesn't change the fact that they will do it. and people not caring about action women in media? Thats a new one to me. People care a lot about that.

I mean, a few weeks before one of the biggest events in Dragon Ball, two women fighters, supposed to be backed up be research, they're timing this really well to get the views, if they are really informed they KNOW that 18 is about to do this and will do their Death battle before she gets her chance to shine, they're spin artists they know how to do this to get the internet going, they've done it before.

Either that or they're ignorant of the state of the fandoms in question, and should not be doing this while claiming to be researching this.

[Forum Explorer]

I just hope we get some abridged 18, who I do like.

On a different note, do you think they'll ever use an Undertale character? Then we'll see some trolling and rage.

[Rynjin]

I don't think DB fans really care about 18 very much

You might be surprised. 18 is probably the second most popular female character, after Bulma, and the ONLY remaining female fighter. She was 1/2 of the main villain duo of what is usually considered the best arc in DBZ and arguably the best movie (History of Trunks), with the most character development of the two. She has the least dysfunctional romantic relationship in the series with another fan favorite character (Krillin) and, perhaps most importantly for an anime fanbase, she's pretty hot.

18 is likely few peoples' absolute FAVORITE character, but she's in the top 5 on any given person's list I'd wager, and more people than you might expect will be justifiably upset if she doesn't get a fair shake.

Which is exactly why she was chosen.

[Lord Raziere]

I just hope we get some abridged 18, who I do like.

On a different note, do you think they'll ever use an Undertale character? Then we'll see some trolling and rage.

Siiiiiigh.

They'd pick Sans. There is no way they would not pick Sans if they did. I don't know what opponent they would use against him, given his highly unusual if not unique fighting capabilities, but they'd pick him.

I guess it would depend on how they spin it. They'd either take Sans status as the weakest monster and put him against something weak like a Caterpie and make him lose, or they'd troll some OTHER fandom by putting him against some badass, then making that badass lose to him because of some weird reasoning given his abilities.

[digiman619]

I just hope we get some abridged 18, who I do like.

On a different note, do you think they'll ever use an Undertale character? Then we'll see some trolling and rage.

Well, every other DBZ character has been voiced by a member of Team Four Star, so that seems likely.

[Forum Explorer]

Siiiiiigh.

They'd pick Sans. There is no way they would not pick Sans if they did. I don't know what opponent they would use against him, given his highly unusual if not unique fighting capabilities, but they'd pick him.

I guess it would depend on how they spin it. They'd either take Sans status as the weakest monster and put him against something weak like a Caterpie and make him lose, or they'd troll some OTHER fandom by putting him against some badass, then making that badass lose to him because of some weird reasoning given his abilities.

I figured they might take Asriel and have him face the most OP person you can think of, and then claim since Asriel's attack and defense are literally infinite, he can't be beaten.

[Lord Raziere]

I figured they might take Asriel and have him face the most OP person you can think of, and then claim since Asriel's attack and defense are literally infinite, he can't be beaten.

Could also be the case. Its just that, Sans is so much more popular. I've seen many Undertale fan works, and there are more that focus on Sans as a protagonist and his troubles as well giving him more badass moments in their own universe, while Asriel's God of Hyperdeath form only shows up rarely because its so OP, and its more likely for you to see Asriel depicted in his child form than his Hyperdeath god form, so I'd think that Sans would be the more likely target.

that and the power levels of the Genocide and Pacifist final boss fights are highly interpretive:
Problems with the Asriel Fight:
-its pretty easy because Frisk at that point is using godlike Determination to even the battle to their side, and probably isn't even trying to attack him
-but when you do attack him, it deals no damage/misses
-Asriel just kind of gives up after you SAVE him, you don't really fight him, your mostly just dodging his attacks and trying to convince him stop the madness.
-we don't actually know the upper limit of his attacks- he can clearly break the barrier, but its not clear whether his attacks are being intentionally held back to make it fun for him, or whether Hyper Goner just absorbed all of reality or just everything within the barrier or what.
-at the same time, he can rewrite memories, and if he is more powerful than Omega Flowey, he should be able to remake the world however he wants.
-yet at the same time all six human souls and a bunch of monster ones are still not enough to defeat Frisk's one soul.

Problems with the Sans fight:
-Sans really is the weakest monster in the Underground. Its not just a lie. Stat-wise, he would never be able to beat Papyrus, Undyne or whatever with his weak attacks, an errant attack that he didn't dodge would kill him instantly and all those attack patterns are more complex than Chara's single dagger stab, so one could argue that his dodging skills are because he isn't emulating Asgore like all the other monsters and just stepping to the side from the easy-to-dodge attack Chara uses, and the fight is just Sans throwing lots of bones at Chara, then Chara makes a single stab that anyone with a brain or not emulating someone with a martyr complex would dodge easily.
-Sans is the hardest FIGHT in Undertale because he is one of the SMARTEST monsters in the Underground. He knows that against a human determined to kill them, HP doesn't matter, all the blows have damage of 9999999999 HP, so the only solution is to dodge, and the rest is just him doing all he can to make the fight hard for you using whatever trick he can think of.
-At the same time, Chara is one level away from turning to the player and thus killing the true god of Undertale in a single blow and gaining ultimate power, so when Sans kills Chara multiple times, he is someone who is somehow beating a human who is near able to defeat a god greater than Asriel, with only 1 hp, 1 def and 1 atk. and somehow he has Karmic Retribution which keeps damaging you after you get hit because the sins on your back

So. from a low ball interpretation of both fights:
-Asriel is just lying about his stats and Frisk is just dodging his playful attacks in the final corridor to the barrier and all this is just a very spectacular light show
-Sans and Chara are just a skeleton and a little kid in a hall way, with Sans stepping to the side of their little knife thrusts.

While a high ball interpretation of both goes:
-Asriel has warped all of reality, Frisk is a Human God of Pacifist Determination resisting his reality warping effects and using conjured food to sustain themselves while regenerating instantly every time they nearly die.
-Sans is a super-speed time-space ninja who has min-maxed himself to take on a Human God of Genocidal Determination and is hacking reality with his knowledge to trip Chara up at every point to prevent Chara from destroying all of time and space.

see the problem here? Undertales nature of non-linear power makes it really hard to judge how over the top the fights really are. One could make an argument for Sans being capable of taking on reality-destroyers, or being incapable of taking on a child. one could make an argument for Asriel being able reshape all of reality to his whim, one could make an argument for Asriel just be able to break down the barrier and be a fun fight.

[Ravian]

The whole issue with Undertale is that the combat system is highly abstract, and it's difficult to say what each and every attack is meant to be viewed in a more concrete context.

In that regard, Sans' entire fighting style relies on the fact that he understands the abstractions used by the player and can use them to his advantage. He does not give invincibility frames, can dodge attacks instead of standing still, and even damage the player on their own turn. His coup de grace is abusing the turn based combat system by deciding to simply never end his turn and attempting to lock you into an unwinnable stalemate. (a plan that only fails because of his own stamina.)

The thing is, all of those abilities are only applicable within the context of the game. Beyond it there's no indication he'd be at all useful in a regular fight. Until there's a canon interpretation of what a sans fight looks like outside of the game's UI, there's really no way to make a judgement on his abilities.

[Dragonus45]

Hmmm, can anyone else think of a cahacter from a game that used a similar knowledge of game mechanics and meta knowledge for fighting?

[Celestia]

Hmmm, can anyone else think of a cahacter from a game that used a similar knowledge of game mechanics and meta knowledge for fighting?

Well, the protagonists of the Elder Scrolls series can use CHIM to modify the games and open the command console.

Of course, if they go with a CHIM using TES character, then victory is assured because of god mode. So, that's not really fair.

[Dragonus45]

Well, the protagonists of the Elder Scrolls series can use CHIM to modify the games and open the command console.

Of course, if they go with a CHIM using TES character, then victory is assured because of god mode. So, that's not really fair.

Well, you can turn on god mode. But that doesn't help when your enemy understands how to dodge an attack.

[SKarious]

Of course god mode helps - you only have to be lucky once.

[Celestia]

Well, you can turn on god mode. But that doesn't help when your enemy understands how to dodge an attack.

Person who literally cannot be killed versus person who's good at dodging: The [not so] epic battle!

Yeah, it's pretty one sided. Also, there's a kill command, too. That's rather undodgable.

[Lord Raziere]

Person who literally cannot be killed versus person who's good at dodging: The [not so] epic battle!

Yeah, it's pretty one sided. Also, there's a kill command, too. That's rather undodgable.

Ah but is it Sans Vs. the TES character abusing his own universe rules, or abusing the rules of whatever universe he just so happens to be in? Because Sans in the TES universe would pretty much CHIM immediately and probably proceed to become a reality warper with his newfound godly power. because skill at abusing the rules isn't limited to his own universe. he IS a scientist after all.

[Dragonus45]

Person who literally cannot be killed versus person who's good at dodging: The [not so] epic battle!

Yeah, it's pretty one sided. Also, there's a kill command, too. That's rather undodgable.

Well, since the most recent games have no dodge or evasion stats being able to dodge is pretty damn useful. Might even dodge /kill

[Lord Raziere]

Well, since the most recent games have no dodge or evasion stats being able to dodge is pretty damn useful. Might even dodge /kill

Sans would at the very least be an extremely good Dark Souls player. the pros at those pretty much discard armor, go full offense then dodge everything a boss throws at them.