Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[Mato]

But if anything I'm even worse because I'm getting riled up about people getting riled up

If it makes you feel better I'm not riled up.

No. Not solid at all, because there is no one writer for Superman, therefore there is no solid conclusion that you can make. furthermore, the Superman used in DB was All-Star Superman, so it wasn't canon because it was DC's ultimate universe.

The guys who invented and sold the Superman character never wrote a single comic with him in it.

I mean, I could see an argument for Supes being stronger than Goku, but DB didn't come even close.

Of course not.

DB seeded their video with ways to argue against them. At 31:07 or so the video lists Goku's & Superman's stats, as calculated by DB, side by side and you'll notice it says (w/o ki). And after establishing what they thought was Goku's strength and durability they used Newton's third law to claim Goku's physical-enhancing ki powers were limited to his durability and capped him at 34.7 sextillion megatons (or 1.45x10^38 joules). Except they also admitted Goku could blow up the sun which just overcoming the gravitational energy alone is 6.9x10^41 joules which is roughly six thousand times higher and that's not even the full figure, plus even Cell is more powerful than that.

DB's point wasn't to measure the characters, and they wanted to make sure you had plenty of material to argue about it.

And anyway All Star Superman is part of the Post Crisis continuity, it just exists along a parallel timeline. And his boosted powers weren't killing him. Superman doesn't die at the end of that story we actually see it continued later.

No, hes dead. Jor-El tells Superman he's dead and explains how individual consciousness is a property of energy and cannot be destroyed, Krypton's Neconlab confirmed people continue to temporary exist in thought castles which is where Superman was then. Superman was then given a choice surrender to conciseness mutation and remain there, dead, in the thought palace of his dead father Jor-El or face evil one last time. So Superman returned with barely any superpowers, told Lois polity that he was turning into energy (aka dying) before flying into the sun that killed him.

The reason you see Superman descendants is because Superman entrusted his DNA to Dr Leo Quintum and told him to mix it with Lois Lane's. The last few panels tease a large Superman door in the genetics lab on the moon. This is actually a nod to the one million timeline, where Superman Prime left Earth to "go to the sun" leaving his and Lois's son, Superman Secondus, in charge.

[Delicious Taffy]

For what it's worth, I have not personally seen a version of Superman who couldn't beat Goku in a fight. I don't even like Superman in the slightest, specifically because of his ridiculous level of power, and I still don't think there's a reasonable way for Goku to beat him. Not that there's even any merit to debating this crap. I mean, really, who even decided these are characters who should fight? They're on completely different levels, and have nothing in common besides "Is very strong. Can fly. Knows laser moves." If that's all someone needs, fine, but don't expect me to think it's a valid conversation. What's next, they'll pit Superman against the Doctor? I've seen "people" debating that, for no apparent reason, so why the hell not?


Now, if you want to talk about a BS match, there's Voltron VS Megazord.

[Lord Raziere]

For what it's worth, I have not personally seen a version of Superman who couldn't beat Goku in a fight.

Funny, I have not personally seen a version of Superman that CAN beat Goku in a fight. If such a personal view is valid, so is mine.

[Mato]

Funny, I have not personally seen a version of Superman that CAN beat Goku in a fight. If such a personal view is valid, so is mine.

And that's how those Superman people continue to persist

It really doesn't get any simpler than DBZ treats planet busting like M. Bison treats peasant uprisings but Superman constantly gets beaten back by humans and people who can barely bench press a car and city-bombs are plot points instead of something you casually deflect into space.

Superman's peaks sound impressive, like hiding in the sun for thousands of years and still needing help to beat a tiny mechanical sun smaller than a football stadium or punching a moon apart and nearly killing him self, but they just don't hold up when you apply the same form of measurement to Goku. Like his peak is being able to punch a universe apart while SSG which something the manga says he can do on his own when he wants except SSB is significantly stronger and he can add Kaioken x10 to that. You have to quote Superman's feats out of context just for Superboy to be able to pummel one universe when he's outside of it.

[Xihirli]

The Question Volume II suggests that Supes is vulnerable to ki/chi energy the same way he's vulnerable to magic.

[Mato]

Superman actually isn't weak against magic, it's called a weakness because it affects him the same way magic affects any other normal person.

And unlike most other forms of media ki/mana is interchangeable Dragonball separates magical/mystical powers from ki anyway. But I have no idea what Goku's Dragon Fist is supposed to be since it can physically transform him and strike people capable of absorbing ki and the Mafuba seems to act as a type of magical seal using your life force to power it. They could be duel-natured since people like Kami and Buu show there isn't some kind of limit.

[Rynjin]

Superman actually isn't weak against magic, it's called a weakness because it affects him the same way magic affects any other normal person.

I mean...that's a pretty big weakness. If bullets affected him like a normal person, for example, it would be hard to argue he wasn't weak to bullets when everything else just bounces off him.

And unlike most other forms of media ki/mana is interchangeable Dragonball separates magical/mystical powers from ki anyway. But I have no idea what Goku's Dragon Fist is supposed to be since it can physically transform him and strike people capable of absorbing ki and the Mafuba seems to act as a type of magical seal using your life force to power it. They could be duel-natured since people like Kami and Buu show there isn't some kind of limit.

I mean, Piccolo does magic. The CLOTHES BEAM sure ain't ki.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean, Piccolo does magic. The CLOTHES BEAM sure ain't ki.

Piccolo might actually have a better shot than Goku. Clothes Beam technically can conjure anything, and is actually a spell called Matter Materialization, Kais have also conjured stuff and Whis and Vados conjured arenas for Champa Arc. Even if you lowball it and say Piccolo can only conjure clothes on people, there is no rule about Piccolo conjuring kryptonite clothes on Superman then just snapping his neck.

[Mato]

I mean, Piccolo does magic. The CLOTHES BEAM sure ain't ki.

Yeah, Piccolo is a split half of Kami who has magical powers, but like I said there isn't some kind of limit that prevents ki users from using magic or vice versa. I'm just theorizing that the Dragon Fist technique could be a combination of the two. Sort of like the Metamoru fusion technique, however it's supposed to work it includes the creation of new clothing kind of like matter materialization or a CLOTHES BEAM.

[Anteros]

For what it's worth, I have not personally seen a version of Superman who couldn't beat Goku in a fight.

All this means is that you aren't familiar with either character. There are dozens of versions of Superman who would lose to Goku and a handful that could beat him.

Piccolo might actually have a better shot than Goku. Clothes Beam technically can conjure anything, and is actually a spell called Matter Materialization, Kais have also conjured stuff and Whis and Vados conjured arenas for Champa Arc. Even if you lowball it and say Piccolo can only conjure clothes on people, there is no rule about Piccolo conjuring kryptonite clothes on Superman then just snapping his neck.

Goku could probably use the Mafuba. That's pretty solidly magic.

It's moot though, because none of these characters would actually behave that way.

[Delicious Taffy]

All this means is that you aren't familiar with either character. There are dozens of versions of Superman who would lose to Goku and a handful that could beat him.

No, it just means I'm not particularly familiar with Superman in specific. I am extremely familiar with Goku. Superman, on the other hand, I've only ever seen winning whatever fight he's been in. I wasn't even aware that Death Battle was using a hybrid of various incarnations. And honestly, there's a perfectly good reason I don't know jack about Superman. See, he's constantly built up to be this invincible ****-off force of nature, and when all I have to go on is his reputation and what I've seen of him seeming to confirm said reputation, I'm going to think it's justified. You said yourself there are a handful of versions of Superman who could beat Goku, so I'm guessing those are the only ones I've seen. I don't have to have deep lore mastery of every single incarnation of a character to have an opinion on what I do know.

[Lord Raziere]

No, it just means I'm not particularly familiar with Superman in specific. I am extremely familiar with Goku. Superman, on the other hand, I've only ever seen winning whatever fight he's been in. I wasn't even aware that Death Battle was using a hybrid of various incarnations. And honestly, there's a perfectly good reason I don't know jack about Superman. See, he's constantly built up to be this invincible ****-off force of nature, and when all I have to go on is his reputation and what I've seen of him seeming to confirm said reputation, I'm going to think it's justified. You said yourself there are a handful of versions of Superman who could beat Goku, so I'm guessing those are the only ones I've seen. I don't have to have deep lore mastery of every single incarnation of a character to have an opinion on what I do know.

....lets see......ok there is a wikipedia page for all the versions of Superman.

But there is a lot, and only a short summary dedicated to each one. It would be a project unto itself to figure out the strength of each one and you'd have to break it down by sections, as there are some parallel Supermans who are canon and some who are not. as well the Bizarros, characters that are not Clark Kent but are known as "Superman", and none of that is covering the two main Supermen:
-the constantly retconned Earth-One Superman who is the main one
-the Golden Age Superman of Earth Two who died battling Superboy Prime

So I'd say at this point, that Superman gets subjected to Inverse Ninja Rule and Goku kicks all their asses in one fight. There is enough Supermen for it to apply. and if you protest that no version of Superman would actually fight Goku, we can always choose the Superman from Earth-3 Ultraman who is Superman but evil, or choose Superman from Earth-10 called Overman who is a Nazi. Both are canon Supermen.

[Maryring]

Subject change!

Because the "my dad can beat your dad" argument has gone on long enough that the popcorn's run dry, let us move the discussion somewhere a bit more obscure.

How about back to FF and a game that isn't VII? Who do you guys think would be a thematically appropriate match for Terra or Celes of FFVI fame?

[Dragonus45]

Funny, I have not personally seen a version of Superman that CAN beat Goku in a fight. If such a personal view is valid, so is mine.

It would be if you weren't wrong, Superman is factually leagues above Goku in power leve.

[Kato]

Subject change!

How about back to FF and a game that isn't VII? Who do you guys think would be a thematically appropriate match for Terra or Celes of FFVI fame?

Depends... What angle are we taking? Human-monster hybrid? Bunch of those around.. Incredibly powerful spell caster? Even more. Both make me think a bit of Raven, but I feel not a great match. Scarlet witch? Kind of half-human. I feel like there must be many but I'm blanking right now...
Ceres... Supersoldiers? Good traitors? Mage knights? Maybe stick with the franchise and go for... Uhm... Beatrix. Geez, actually had to look up her name. But not that much overlap.. Not that close but maybe akame ga Jill's Esdeath?


On another note... I want more mecha fights! Yes, there is Super Robot Wars but I want some macross Vs Gundam anyway.

[Anteros]

It would be if you weren't wrong, Superman is factually leagues above Goku in power leve.

I mean, if you ignore all evidence and just make things up then maybe.

It's actually the other way around though. Goku is universe destroying level while Supes is like multiple planets at his peak.

[Kitten Champion]

Subject change!

Because the "my dad can beat your dad" argument has gone on long enough that the popcorn's run dry, let us move the discussion somewhere a bit more obscure.

How about back to FF and a game that isn't VII? Who do you guys think would be a thematically appropriate match for Terra or Celes of FFVI fame?

For Terra... Jean Grey could work, at least the Phoenix-possessed version. They've got the whole underlying power which manifests in a super-showy sort of way angle, and there's some overlap in their characterization of innocence, power, guilt, and uncertainty.

Any of the various iterations of Lalah Sune that appear in the Gundam meta-franchise could work too I think. Taking the mentally manipulated female mecha ace pilot for an Evil Empire angle. Though power-wise they're not exactly on the same scale of someone who can control gravity and split the atom at will.

Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft could work from various angles.

For Ceres... my first thought is Mara Jade. Which is odd since I know little about the character beyond one of the few Star War novels I've actually read, but they've got some overlap in their arc as valuable agents of Evil Emperors who wind up on the side of Good. You'd have some confusion as to how FFVI's magic system interacts with the Force, but it's plausibly interesting.

Riven from League of Legends has a similar character concept, at least insomuch as I can recall from the flavour text. Also possesses a runic blade.

Ultear from Fairy Tail, having a similar redemptive character arc, unique magical abilities, and I believe they both share an ice magic preference.

For either there are a number of Tales of.. characters who have some kind of magical experimentation done upon them, feature some setting-unique alienating character elements, or commit some notable face-heel turn from the story's villain that could fit here too, JRPG tropes being what they are.

[Talakeal]

Funny, I have not personally seen a version of Superman that CAN beat Goku in a fight. If such a personal view is valid, so is mine.

Even Super Man One Million who has the full reality warping powers of a fifth dimensional being in addition to over the top BS?

Honestly, Super Man is often a poorly written character who simply makes up new powers or capabilities of existing powers to solve whatever problem is at hand. I personally think more of characters who CAN'T beat Superman as that means they are at least somewhat well written and better thought out.

[Lord Raziere]

Even Super Man One Million who has the full reality warping powers of a fifth dimensional being in addition to over the top BS?

Is a descendant of Clark Kent, and not even a canonical one, Superman One Million is a descendant of All-Star Superman, so not canon, not a real Superman. Doesn't count. Grant Morrison nonsense that no one should pay attention to.

[Talakeal]

Is a descendant of Clark Kent, and not even a canonical one, Superman One Million is a descendant of All-Star Superman, so not canon, not a real Superman. Doesn't count. Grant Morrison nonsense that no one should pay attention to.

Ok, not a Superman expert (as you can probably tell from my last post I don't really care for Superman), but I was under the impression that Superman Prime somehow absorbed the powers of his descendants over the course of the story.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, not a Superman expert (as you can probably tell from my last post I don't really care for Superman), but I was under the impression that Superman Prime somehow absorbed the powers of his descendants over the course of the story.

See? I'm right, stupid Grant Morrison nonsense that doesn't make sense. how would he do that? unless he has some magical sympathetic connection to his descendants over the rest of the entire universe or something, I don't see how thats possible. and its technically involving other people! how can we legitimately say that its just one Superman, if he is using the power of gained from multiple Supermans?

[Anteros]

See? I'm right, stupid Grant Morrison nonsense that doesn't make sense. how would he do that? unless he has some magical sympathetic connection to his descendants over the rest of the entire universe or something, I don't see how thats possible. and its technically involving other people! how can we legitimately say that its just one Superman, if he is using the power of gained from multiple Supermans?

Well...if you want to start arguing that feats that are scientifically impossible don't count then we're all gonna have a bad time in this thread.

[Talakeal]

See? I'm right, stupid Grant Morrison nonsense that doesn't make sense. how would he do that? unless he has some magical sympathetic connection to his descendants over the rest of the entire universe or something, I don't see how thats possible. and its technically involving other people! how can we legitimately say that its just one Superman, if he is using the power of gained from multiple Supermans?

Would it really be any weirder than:

[Lord Raziere]

Would it really be any weirder than:

No, but it still wouldn't be canon because its from All-Star Superman.

[Mato]

Even Super Man One Million who has the full reality warping powers of a fifth dimensional being in addition to over the top BS?

Please read this.

[Lord Raziere]

Please read this.

Ok, good to know. I may have been wrong about the source of the bull, but its heartwarming to know that Superman One Million is just a guy who got hit with the Sue-Hammer when he came out of sun-hibernation. all his "feats" are just people doing things FOR him as gifts just because he returned.

[Delicious Taffy]

Death Battle frequently takes various incarnations of a character and merges them into one. I don't see why this suddenly shouldn't apply to Superman, of all characters. But whatever, I'm not even trying to play Kryptonian's Advocate, here. Superman is a ****ing boring character, plain as that. But enough about the boring piece of **** with one of the worst-looking fights in Death Battle. I'd rather consider other characters for a hypothetical upcoming episode.

For example, Claire Redfield and Heather Mason.

[Chimmon]

Really, a good rule of thumb would be to only count feats that have been done at least twice. That would eliminate a lot of the ex machina. Not that DB wouldn't come up with their own logic anyways.

[Rynjin]

For example, Claire Redfield and Heather Mason.

Haven't played Silent Hill 3, but from what I'm reading Claire would mop the floor with Heather. Claire is just short of a killing machine, being a protagonist of the most action-y Resident Evil at the time. Her arsenal is bigger, she's killed even bigger and badder things, and Heather doesn't really have superhuman durability (more than any other game protagonist does), so she's probably toast with just a couple grenade launcher shots.

[Traab]

Terra, what are her best feats? I know she is like, super magic esper girl and can cast a lot of spells, but she isnt really all that much stronger than anyone else in the setting as everyone can learn every spell, and considering relics, cast them nearly as well. At first I was thinking double spells but thats vivi from ff9 when tranced, so whats her special deal? Its been so damn long and I never really bothered using her in my main party when I had a choice. (Cyan, edgar, sabin, gogo) Celes was another one I never really cared about. her unique skill is absorbing one enemy spell per round. And personally, I would rather quadra slam every enemy on screen at once with two weapons than absorb a single spell cast that wouldnt even happen unless I WASNT quadra slamming every monster on screen with two weapons at once. Now put cyan up against some other legendary swordsman, or sabin up against some other taijutsu freak (Dude can suplex trains. Trains that are ghosts) and then I would be happy to argue about it.