Naruto IX: [Epilogue Intensifies]

[LaZodiac]

So, a new chapter of Boruto JUST dropped, so lets take a look at it.

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Kojin Kaishin fights Jigen, and it's clearly implied Kaishin is some sort of clone or son or copy of Jiraiya, let's not be blunt about it. During the figh we get an explanation about what Karma is and how it works, and it is REALLY dumb and feels way too sci-fi for Naruto in my opinion, even this new Naruto that has chakra llightsabers and gatling guns. It is basically just a ZIP file that slowly unpacks over the person, turning them into you. It's very stupid.

I do think it is very funny to see Momoshiki in Boruto's clothing though. That's a funny image.

[Rater202]

So, a new chapter of Boruto JUST dropped, so lets take a look at it.

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Kojin Kaishin fights Jigen, and it's clearly implied Kaishin is some sort of clone or son or copy of Jiraiya, let's not be blunt about it. During the figh we get an explanation about what Karma is and how it works, and it is REALLY dumb and feels way too sci-fi for Naruto in my opinion, even this new Naruto that has chakra llightsabers and gatling guns. It is basically just a ZIP file that slowly unpacks over the person, turning them into you. It's very stupid.

I do think it is very funny to see Momoshiki in Boruto's clothing though. That's a funny image.

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I'd like to point out that that's part of how Orochimaru's Juinjutu works. Each seal has a copy of his consciousness in it which influences your behavior and converts your chakra into Orochumaru's chakra before molding it with natural energy and giving it back as Orochimaru Flavored Senjutsu chakra.

The purpose being to control the person's behavior and make them compatible hosts for Orochimaru. And we know that the copy of Orochimaru's mind can regenerate into a full, brand new Orochimaru with the full memories and continuity of self with the original if the original is dead or sealed away as long as it's provided a compatible enough host.

So really, this isn't anything new. IT's just "Hey, that Thing Orochimaru spent years perfecting after researching this one kid's overpowered bloodline turns out to be very similar to this thing that the Aliens who plant the Chakra trees to become Gods use in case they die."

Which, considering that Orochimaru's thing is kind of "using unethical science to do things that it turns out have already been done" is perfectly on-brand.

[Ramza00]

So unreliable writing over a 23 year period aka Retcons.

Spoiler: Boruto Chapter 46, May

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I agree with Rater202 this is the exact same thing as Orochimaru’s cursed seals as the Kāma of the Ōtsutsuki clan. Maybe some marginal differences but the principle is the same.

We known for a long time that a chakra signature is both attached to material DNA and the Naruto worlds equivalent of the soul. This was made obvious by the 48 hour war that would never end, but also earlier events such as the Impure World Reincarnation Jutsu.

The difference is one of translation using the word data instead of the word chakra. But that is language games either unintentional with translation or intentional by the story teller.

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I am confident we are going a retcon where Orochimaru created his cursed seals after studying the world tree / ten tails. Even though the ten tails / world tree was in fragments during the time Orochimaru was studying.

The problem with this is Naruto and the other tailed beasts would have been coveted by Orochimaru for its own sake, not just as a Jinchuriki chakra battery. Thus some Orochimaru part 1 stuff does not make sense.

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So doesn’t Boruto have a unique eye Jutsu? Both now in the present but also the fast forward that was the prologue of Boruto? Will Kāma over write this unique Jutsu if fully utilized?

Also Otsutsuki eat each other? If they can find a compatible vessel that is strong enough is there no downside of letting your family member eat you and you can resurrect in a new vessel?

Wait Indra and Asura resurrection was that a soul thing or was that something similar to Kāma?

I sense these new developments will annoy LaZodiac the more she thinks about it.

[LaZodiac]

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I'd like to point out that that's part of how Orochimaru's Juinjutu works. Each seal has a copy of his consciousness in it which influences your behavior and converts your chakra into Orochumaru's chakra before molding it with natural energy and giving it back as Orochimaru Flavored Senjutsu chakra.

The purpose being to control the person's behavior and make them compatible hosts for Orochimaru. And we know that the copy of Orochimaru's mind can regenerate into a full, brand new Orochimaru with the full memories and continuity of self with the original if the original is dead or sealed away as long as it's provided a compatible enough host.

So really, this isn't anything new. IT's just "Hey, that Thing Orochimaru spent years perfecting after researching this one kid's overpowered bloodline turns out to be very similar to this thing that the Aliens who plant the Chakra trees to become Gods use in case they die."

Which, considering that Orochimaru's thing is kind of "using unethical science to do things that it turns out have already been done" is perfectly on-brand.

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Like Ramza so helpfully puts below, when Orochimaru did it it was weird DNA **** he did with a combination of magic and science. It feel less stupid than "oh they downloaded themselves onto your body as tattoo and are slowly going to body replace you via deleting all of your files and replacing them with theirs". And additionally, the curse seals are Orochimaru splortching out OF the seal, using your body as fuel, which is completely different than downloading your meat into someone and just turning their body into yours, complete with physical alterations.

So unreliable writing over a 23 year period aka Retcons.

Spoiler: Boruto Chapter 46, May

Show

I agree with Rater202 this is the exact same thing as Orochimaru’s cursed seals as the Kāma of the Ōtsutsuki clan. Maybe some marginal differences but the principle is the same.

We known for a long time that a chakra signature is both attached to material DNA and the Naruto worlds equivalent of the soul. This was made obvious by the 48 hour war that would never end, but also earlier events such as the Impure World Reincarnation Jutsu.

The difference is one of translation using the word data instead of the word chakra. But that is language games either unintentional with translation or intentional by the story teller.

—————

I am confident we are going a retcon where Orochimaru created his cursed seals after studying the world tree / ten tails. Even though the ten tails / world tree was in fragments during the time Orochimaru was studying.

The problem with this is Naruto and the other tailed beasts would have been coveted by Orochimaru for its own sake, not just as a Jinchuriki chakra battery. Thus some Orochimaru part 1 stuff does not make sense.

—————

So doesn’t Boruto have a unique eye Jutsu? Both now in the present but also the fast forward that was the prologue of Boruto? Will Kāma over write this unique Jutsu if fully utilized?

Also Otsutsuki eat each other? If they can find a compatible vessel that is strong enough is there no downside of letting your family member eat you and you can resurrect in a new vessel?

Wait Indra and Asura resurrection was that a soul thing or was that something similar to Kāma?

I sense these new developments will annoy LaZodiac the more she thinks about it.

Spoiler

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According to what has been said yes Momo will not be eyeball jacking Boruto, just replacing his body's meat data with his own.

I mean... presumably, unless they decide to kill said vessel after their delicious rabbit stew.

I swear to ****ing god if they make Indra and Asura to be similar to the moon alien rabbit bull**** I'm going to scream because that genuinely does nothing but erase the "it is only SYMBOLIC reincarnation" that people use to justify Our Lord And Savior Naruto as a concept.

You are 100% correct that the more I think about this the more I feel like my brain is being assaulted. Kishimoto failed his stupid cyborg manga so now he's trying to make Boruto into it... and given we're getting a crossover for the two soon it is entirely possible that they take place in the same universe.

[Rater202]

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Asura and Indra is a chakra thing

If your chakra is potent enough it will persist beyond the death of your physical vessel and basically a force ghost.

Hogoromo and Hamura, the Sage of Six Paths and his brother, were strong enough that it functions as a form of immortality--they retain their consciousnesses and can interact with the world if they so choose, but Asura and Indra only their chakra persisted and it sort of latches onto whichever of their Descendents in the current generation is most similar to them.

So they use the term "Reincarnation" but even ignoring the fact that "souls" and "reincarnation" don't really work the way they do in the west(they're not so much unique discrete things) but it's not really Reincarnation.

If my Reading is right, for example, Sasuke wasn't born an Incarnation of Indra but, once Madara finally kicked it, Indra's chakra just sort of floated around and Sasuke, as a boy who was born talented, didn't understand the value of friendship, and was manipulated by an outside force, was similar enough to Indra that Indra's chakra latched onto him.

Likewise: Naruto was born to awesome parents but did not inherit any of their talent of powers and started out relatively week. It was a combination luck, hard work(particularly in terms of wind control) and encouragement from friends to unlock his true talents, who values cooperation and peace over bloodshed, and so on was most like Asura this generation and so inherited his chakra.

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Like Ramza so helpfully puts below, when Orochimaru did it it was weird DNA **** he did with a combination of magic and science. It feel less stupid than "oh they downloaded themselves onto your body as tattoo and are slowly going to body replace you via deleting all of your files and replacing them with theirs". And additionally, the curse seals are Orochimaru splortching out OF the seal, using your body as fuel, which is completely different than downloading your meat into someone and just turning their body into yours, complete with physical alterations.

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No, Orochimaru doesn't blorp out of the Curse Mark.

That was Sasuke using a technique(explained as the "Evil Unsealing Method" in the databooks,) to rip Orochimaru's consciousness and Chakra out of Anko's curse mark and transfer it into a lump of Flesh he ripped of of Kabuto, which then regenerated into a new Orochimaru.

Unless you're talking about him coming out of Sasuke, but that was a different thing entirely: Orochimaur's "Living Corpse Reincarnation" merges him in body and soul with the Host. Sasuke reversed it at the last second so that his soul would be the dominant part of the merger, but becuase didn't have the various modifications that Orochimaru did Orochimaru was able to break out and separate his body and soul from Sasuke's later on(which as a side effect took the bit of himself that was in Sasuke's curse mark.) That's a different kettle of fish entirely.

The Kama is a brand that contains the biological information and chakra of the Otsusuki who leaves it on someone and slowly converts the hosts's body into the Ottsusuki's as a means of resurrecting the Otsusuki the same way that Zetsu was able to resurrect Kaguya by manipulating Madara into making himself into a reasonable facsimile of Kaguya's body and chakra.

I don't know what translation you read, but if it's comparing it to data it's at most using it metaphorically.

[Ramza00]

Upcoming Retcons everywhere! Sidenote they have a lamp shaded out for the person doing this data dump says “this is not literal” and he is simplifying it when he data dumps said people.

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According to what has been said yes Momo will not be eyeball jacking Boruto, just replacing his body's meat data with his own.

I mean... presumably, unless they decide to kill said vessel after their delicious rabbit stew.

I swear to ****ing god if they make Indra and Asura to be similar to the moon alien rabbit bull**** I'm going to scream because that genuinely does nothing but erase the "it is only SYMBOLIC reincarnation" that people use to justify Our Lord And Savior Naruto as a concept.

You are 100% correct that the more I think about this the more I feel like my brain is being assaulted. Kishimoto failed his stupid cyborg manga so now he's trying to make Boruto into it... and given we're getting a crossover for the two soon it is entirely possible that they take place in the same universe.

Want to know the worse thing LaZodiac

Spoiler: Boruto Chapter 46, May

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Boruto is becoming RWBY

[LaZodiac]

You know detailing this stuff to a friend, I think we're missing the forest through the trees here.

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Jigen's got a tiny alien rabbit man inside of his brain controlling his every thoughts and eating his energy via sucking on his think-meats.

[Rater202]

Another observation, one I actually made a while ago but didn't want to necro the thread to share.

Kabuto's face turn was claimed to be undeserved and unnecessary a when we were discussing it while Bleakbane was getting cought up with the Anime and got to that part.

Here's the thing: Kabuto had infused himself with the Cells and Chakra of a number of Ninja in addition to his having previously absorbed what was left of Orochimaru after the botched attempt to merge with Sasuke.

Kabuto's signature skill is that he's so good at Medical Jutsu that he can passively heal himself without handsigns and with deliberate effort speed up his self-healing in a specific part of his body to reduce incoming damage.

Combining this with Orochimaru's various self-healing powers(Trivia, according to Novels and Databooks, this, as well as the Living Corpse Reincarnation and Eight Branches Technique, is based on "The Power of th White Snake" which the White Sanke Sage gives to anyone who passes to tests to learn Sage Mode from her, so Kabuto's might even be stronger from double dose.)

Now throw in Karin's cells: An absurdly strong life force(enough to survive for a few minutes without a heart and missing a chunk of her spine, which grew back from basic medical treatment, and shrug off the thing killed Neji) and the ability to heal people and replenish their chakra by feeding chakra to them(which Karin can use on herself, meaning she's basically a perpetual energy ninja.) Orochimaru implies that this is the result of him experimenting on her to improve her Uzumaki life force since he refers to her as a successful experiment.

Now throw in Kimimaro's Bone Armor, which a think layer of under the skin was enough to shrug off Gaara's up until then certain kill Desert Burriel technique.

He explicitly has Jugo's "Sage Transformation" bloodline, which enhances his Sage Mode, and includes a healing factor and enhanced toughness.

He has Sakon and Ukon's powers, which works by breaking down and reassembling their cells and proteins down to their component molecules and then reassembling, implying that as long as they have chakra they can survive if reduced to molecules since... They kind of have to be able to do that to use their powers. (At the very least, you would need to kill them in one hit to prevent them from just melting their wounds back together)

He also implies that he has Hashirama's cells, since he's explicitly using those to heal Sasuke when he's merging his belly Snake with Sasuke to heal his wounds, which implies the addition of Hashirama's healing factor.

He has suigetu's hydration technique and even improved upon it, which he uses to turn his organs into clique to protect them from attacks, making vital damage difficult, and has both Jirobo's chakra absorbing Earth Walls and, while he never uses it, Kidomaru's golden silk(the armor that negates chakra based attacks) for extra protection if he needs it.

And Sage Mode multiplies your everything several times over and Kabuto is using two different kinds of Sage Mode.

As long as he has chakra, it simply isn't possible to seriously injure him and have it stick.

And Kabuto has a lot of chakra. He was Kakashi's equal in Part 1 and presumably got stronger over the time skip, so high jonin-low Kage level power to begin with, then he got more or less all of Orochimaru's power when he absorbed his remains, so that's adding more Kage level chakra plus whatever Orochimaru got from merging/absorbing the three confirmed hosts he had on top of Kabuto's base... Then at least a little bit of chakra from everyone whose cells he has(maybe more, since the cell absorption process aparently involves blending corpses and most of the sound four's bodies are unaccounted four) and members of the Uzumaki Clan, like Karin, can cultivate absurd levels of chakra due to their strong life force so that's a huge multiplier... and Jugo and Jirobo both grant him the ability to top himself off by taking it from other people... Assuming that he didn't figure out the "bite myself to instantly replenish my chakra and heal all my wounds" trick Karin did.

Trapping him in an illusion until he either becomes a better person who wants to clean up his mess or starves to death(which might not work, considering he implicitly has Hashirama's Cells which, going by Madara's example, remove the need to eat or drink) was basically the only way to defeat him.

I don't think you physically can kill him at this point. He wanted to be a better Orochimaru, and I think he succeeded.

[LaZodiac]

They extremely didn't need to write the story that way. They didn't need to make Kabuto literally indestructible, and the reason why people think Kabuto's redemption is bad is because the "become good or enter a coma until you die" is aggressively bad a concept from inception.

I mean given Kabuto's backstory you could easily write an actual redemption arc for him WITHOUT having the infinite mind **** jutus.

[Rater202]

They kind of did need to make him literally indestructible.

Kabuto's thing at this point is "first, I will become a new Orochimaru. Then, I will surpass him and become a perfect being."

Orochimaru has a ludicrous number of ways to cheat death, but, at least in the original series, he failed to become immortal.

So in order to surpass Orochimaru, Kabuto needed to be immortal.

[Aotrs Commander]

Bad writing is never excused by in-universe justfications.

[Rater202]

Bad writing is never excused by in-universe justfications.

Is it bad writing?

I mean, think about it: Kabuto is one of Naruto's foils.

More specifically, if you pay attention, Naruto's got a found family thing going on: the Third and Jiraiya were like grandfathers, Tsunade a grandmother, Iruka and Kakashi were like fathers(Iriuka especially, since he took the role of Naruto's father in the wedding party during Naruto and Hinata's wedding ceremony,) The Konahamaru corp look up to him as though they were his little siblings, and he even as a sibling-like relationship with Sakura once he gets over his crush on her.

As Gaara is what Naruto would have been like if he didn't have a support network, Kabuto... Is a Naruto who's attempt at finding a family was maliciously sabotaged. Kabuto was adopted by the medic nin who ran the orphanage, was blackmailed into joining Root by Danzo(who coveted Kabuotto's prodigious skills) and then Danzo arranged for Kabuto's mother to not recognize him so that he could make them kill each other for no conceivable reason.

Kabuto's motivation, working for Orochimaru, becoming the new Orochimaru, becoming perfect and surpassing Orochimaru, and his ultimate goal of becoming the new Sage of Six Paths were all essentially about validating his existence, the same way that Naruto initially wanted to be the Hokage to make people acknowledge him or Gaara's obsession with killing was in part to prove his existence. "I am here. I exist. I did something. Recognize me."

And, for all that Kabuto talked about becoming a new Orochiimaru, ultimately he really became a new Naruto: When he first merged Orochimaru's remains with himself, they didn't play nice with his body. He explicitly compares Orochimaru's cells trying to take over his body with Naruto's struggles with the Nine tails. He masters this around the same time that Naruto masters the Nine Tails Chakra, and moves onto his next step.

The people he spliced himself with: Kimimaro and the Sound Four were Elite Ninja of the Sound Village, which correspond to Naruto whose training was all done under elite Ninja and Heroes who all tought him their skills.(while Kabuto took the skills of the Sond Four) Suigetsu is very similar to NAruto in personality and in his dynamic with Sasuke(Taka are basically just Sasuke subconsciously replacing team seven,) Karin and NAruto are related by blood, and Jugo not only has the "thing that makes me super powerful but also poses a danger to me and everyone around me" thing in common with Naruto but using his allows Kabuto to obtain and master Sage Mode which makes for a direct comparison to the skills Naruto develops.

Both Naruto and Kabuto develop signature techniques related to cloning as well as a very versatile technique that can basically do whatever the user needs it to do. (In Nagato' case, it's one in the same.)

Both Kabuto and Naruto become ridiculously overpowered with Chakra signature that are highly similar to that of the Sage of the Six Paths via combining multiple traits within themselves, with the difference being that Kabuto took while Naruto was given.

There was no chance of Kabuto not getting a redemption of some sort, considering that all of Naruto's other counterparts either became good guys or died in the process of trying to clean up the messes they made.

And for thematic reasons ("I surpassed Orochimaru, acknowledge me!") it wasn't gonna be the second one.

Kabuto compares himself to Naruto and even seems a little obsessed with him, long, long, long before the Fourth War started. You could even say that the mirroring starts as early as part I since they're both orphans with unique abilities apprenticed under rival Sanin... and Kabuto does seem fascinated with Naruto to a degree and goes out of his way to be nice and learn about Naruto and his friends pretty much from his second appearance onward, so the argument exists that that parallel was intended from very early on.

Kabuto making a face turn was inevitable, the only question was whether or not he lived through it, and the exact manner in which he became OP indicated that he had to.

Izanami, a technique meant to correct friends that had lost their way, being the means of it is only a measure of how far gone he was and how OP he made himself, nothing more, nothing less.

(Arguably, since Kabuto is a counterpart to NAruto and calls it out himself, the degree of overpoweredness he possesses could be argued to have been foreshadowing of the peaks of power that Naruto would scale)

...Also, Japan strongly values reconciliation and harmony over exact justice. In that culture, the ideal is that if someone is genuinely remorseful and willing to try and atone that it's better to forgive them than to hold grudges or exact a "proportionate" level of justice or vengence. There's a whole cultural issue where this kind of thing is a lot more realistic if you were raised with those cultural norms.

(One of the novels explicitly states that Sasuke, Kabuto, and Orochimaru are all technically prisoners but are left with a degree of autonomy because they're useful and willing to cooperate, If that makes it better.)

[LaZodiac]

I'll be honest Rater I do kinda feel you're overestimating how important a character Kabuto is? He was a minion of Orochimaru who survived his death, and after a span of many chapters of not existing as a character her shows up ready to inherit and surpass Orochimaru's will, and that's... alright, as a characterization and motive, but by that point we've moved on to bigger, grander villains. It's certainly an interesting place to GO with him, but they did not in any way need to make him a completely indestructible dragon-snake sage. Especially since the end result of his forced heel face turn was that "he exists as a character in universe who does nothing".

[Ramza00]

Kabuto was a walking plot device, he was a free agent to apply pressure to the story in some situations but not others. Sometimes he was there applying pressure, other times he was nowhere, like a ghost who is absent one moment yet very present another moment.

During the moments he was present he was a foil but because of his inconsistent nature he was not a good foil. You could see the authors strings on Kabuto and thus the message of the foil lost some of its renascence.

[Rater202]

I'll be honest Rater I do kinda feel you're overestimating how important a character Kabuto is? He was a minion of Orochimaru who survived his death, and after a span of many chapters of not existing as a character her shows up ready to inherit and surpass Orochimaru's will, and that's... alright, as a characterization and motive, but by that point we've moved on to bigger, grander villains. It's certainly an interesting place to GO with him, but they did not in any way need to make him a completely indestructible dragon-snake sage. Especially since the end result of his forced heel face turn was that "he exists as a character in universe who does nothing".

Kabuto was a walking plot device, he was a free agent to apply pressure to the story in some situations but not others. Sometimes he was there applying pressure, other times he was nowhere, like a ghost who is absent one moment yet very present another moment.

During the moments he was present he was a foil but because of his inconsistent nature he was not a good foil. You could see the authors strings on Kabuto and thus the message of the foil lost some of its renascence.

I don't think either of you are giving Kabuto or Kishimoto the credit they deserve.

Of course, considering the double standard in the fandom where some people are allowed easy redemptions but others aren't, it's hardly a surprise.

Does anyone have a problem with A? The Fourth Raikage? Does anyone have a problem with him being considered a good guy?

[Ramza00]

Does anyone have a problem with A? The Fourth Raikage? Does anyone have a problem with him being considered a good guy?

He is Vegetta who loves in the next door town instead of the same place as Goku.

I don't think either of you are giving Kabuto or Kishimoto the credit they deserve.

Honestly how would the Kabuto story be different if...

Naruto kills Kabuto with his first Rasengan.
During the sound four / five arc a new medical ninja becomes Orochimaru’s right hand man / woman?

Kabuto is a blank slate literally in back story, and a situational foil used to advance the plot. He is like an ink blot painting, a nobody yet also a ninja who has no character to him

Honestly Kabuto vs Itachi was interesting even though I felt that fight was yawn. It was interesting for Kabuto and Itachi are far better mirror images of each other than Kabuto and Kakashi or Kabuto and Naruto. The only relevant detail about Kabuto is he is Orochimaru’s equivalent of “root.” Thus pairing him up with Itachi who is semi Danzo’s root 3rd Hokage anbu...yet simultaneously not literally in root was interesting.

[LaZodiac]

I don't think either of you are giving Kabuto or Kishimoto the credit they deserve.

Of course, considering the double standard in the fandom where some people are allowed easy redemptions but others aren't, it's hardly a surprise.

Does anyone have a problem with A? The Fourth Raikage? Does anyone have a problem with him being considered a good guy?

I'm giving Kishimoto exactly the credit he deserves. Do you remember the thing where Kabuto got his glasses got knocked off and he got all clenched face and red, and how that never got paid off at all because Kabuto was ultimately just a mole/sleeper agent type of character who Kishimoto decided to be a good person to bring back.

I don't have a double standard.

Um... no? What has he done that is bad? He's a fun character who does a lot to help the alliance win without having his hand get forced, and actively does his best to ensure their victory. I genuinely don't recall what evil things he's done to be used as an example of "the fandom has a double standard on redemption arcs".

The thing to keep in mind is that Naruto honestly has VERY FEW heel face turns of note. There is Gaara, who literally died for his sins and then spent the rest of his revived life actively making amends. Then there's... Kabuto, who was basically brainwashed into being good. Then there's Orochimaru who basically does nothing and gets away scot free and I think this is bad even if it is hilarious. Then Sasuke, who also does basically nothing good without being forced and is beaten to within an inch of his life and then proceeds to become the worst dad in the ninja world.

the only other ones I can think of are Zabuza and Pain and both end in them immediately dying so I'm not sure that counts.

[Rater202]

He was made Raikage sometime during the Third Great Ninja War.

Meaning that he was the Raikage that went to war with the Leaf Village and then sued for peace just so that he could have his agent(The "head Ninja" from
he Cloud Village, which according to the data books is basically the Raikage's go-fer, the guy who reresentis his interests) enter the village to sign the treaty as a pretext for kidnapping Hinata so that she could be taken back to the cloud village.

Where she would have either been vivisected and had her eyes and other organs harvested for transplant or been broken and conditioned to be a breeding slave when she was old enough to carry a child to term, depending on what flavor of "fracked up" you think Kishimoto was going for with the intent of the Cloud Village in terms of "stealing" the Byakugan.

A would have been the person who insisted on Hiashi's head when he rightfully killed the "Head Ninja" after catching him red-handed running off with Hinata, which means that Hizashi's death is also on A's head.

A is never made to take responsibility for that bullcrap.

But Sasuke is on the hook for doing the things that literally every Ninja older than 12 is guilty of and Kabuto is on the hook for things that ultimately resulted in no permanent damage.

(Madara doesn't count. Resurrecting him was part of Zetsu's plan, and in fact, Kabuto could only bring Madara back becuase Zetsu showed him where Madara's body was. Without Kabuto Zetsu would have done something else to make sure that Madara came back.)

It's a really weird double standard in the NAruto fandom.

[LaZodiac]

He was made Raikage sometime during the Third Great Ninja War.

Meaning that he was the Raikage that went to war with the Leaf Village and then sued for peace just so that he could have his agent(The "head Ninja" from
he Cloud Village, which according to the data books is basically the Raikage's go-fer, the guy who reresentis his interests) enter the village to sign the treaty as a pretext for kidnapping Hinata so that she could be taken back to the cloud village.

Where she would have either been vivisected and had her eyes and other organs harvested for transplant or been broken and conditioned to be a breeding slave when she was old enough to carry a child to term, depending on what flavor of "fracked up" you think Kishimoto was going for with the intent of the Cloud Village in terms of "stealing" the Byakugan.

A would have been the person who insisted on Hiashi's head when he rightfully killed the "Head Ninja" after catching him red-handed running off with Hinata, which means that Hizashi's death is also on A's head.

A is never made to take responsibility for that bullcrap.

But Sasuke is on the hook for doing the things that literally every Ninja older than 12 is guilty of and Kabuto is on the hook for things that ultimately resulted in no permanent damage.

(Madara doesn't count. Resurrecting him was part of Zetsu's plan, and in fact, Kabuto could only bring Madara back becuase Zetsu showed him where Madara's body was. Without Kabuto Zetsu would have done something else to make sure that Madara came back.)

It's a really weird double standard in the NAruto fandom.

We have no proof that A did any of that in series, so we don't know if he's at fault or not. Seems fairly rude to blame him for something that might even be his fault.

We know from other characters that it would just be stealing her eyes.

Assuming this was done on A's orders yes it is bad. While it is a terrible thing to do, it's a pretty basic war thing to do. It is detestable, but it is also entirely impersonal. You can argue if this makes it better or worse on your own time.

Sasuke tried to kill all of the world's leaders twice, so he could become the ultimate darkness that all of society pours all of their hate onto. This is not something ninjas older than 12, generally, all do. As well, he killed Danzo THROUGH KARIN, one of his allies, who loves him unconditionally... and then abandoned her to die. That doesn't seem like a standard thing to do. He also tried to kill Naruto constantly, despite Naruto spending every waking moment trying to save him. He also, and I cannot stress this entire, endangered the ENTIRE WORLD by trying to kill Naruto at the end, because if either of them dies the seal can't be unleashed and so every single human being on earth dies.

Kabuto did a bunch of grave robbing and I want to make it clear I dislike his redemption because the way it was written was bad, not because he doesn't deserve it or not.

[Aotrs Commander]

Is it bad writing?

Yes.

I don't think either of you are giving Kabuto or Kishimoto the credit they deserve.

Of course, considering the double standard in the fandom where some people are allowed easy redemptions but others aren't, it's hardly a surprise.

*raises hand*

I don't believe anyone except for Gaara (who LITERALLY DIED for it) who got it actually deserved redemption, not Nagato, not Konan, not Tonari (okay, so that probably doesn't count), not Itachi, not Obito, not Orocihmaru, not Sasuke, and certainly not Kabuto and frankly I'm only mildlly surprised but relieved they didn't try it on fracking DANZO. (I'm still not convinced on Zabuza, to be perfectly honest, and he actually died as well.)



S'funny how being Evil means that I REALLY HAVE A FRACKING PROBLEM with Kabuto being mind-raped into being good.

(Yeah, Sanctify the Wicked? That spell went RIGHT OUT of 3.Aotrs.)

That? Is literally NOT COOL AT ALL, Kishi, it's just as morally reprehensible (and this is the LAWFUL EVIL LICH saying this) and the memory wipes in Babylon 5 and Star Trek are; that's soul-crimes the literal actual worst thing you can possibly do, worse than murder by miles.

So I really don't care what justifcation Kishimoto wants to make to excuse that, I'm sorry, but mind-rape is flat NOT OKAY EVER.

[LaZodiac]

If you wanna get technical they semi-did it with Danzo by having the Second Hokage note that the Uchiha are all genetically predisposed to insanity and capable of becoming something like Madara, which is sort of implying that Danzo's plan to kill all the Uchiha might have actually been a good idea.

[Rater202]

We have no proof that A did any of that in series, so we don't know if he's at fault or not. Seems fairly rude to blame him for something that might even be his fault.

But we do.

The Third Great Ninja War took place over a decade before the start of the series, several years before Hinata would have been born.

A is confirmed to have been the Raikage by the time the Third War ended.

The "Hyuga Incident" where a representative of the Cloud Village, who is explicitly described as the "Head Ninja" which was later clarfied to mean "the Raikage's representative" happened 9 years ago, during a period of time that A is confirmed to be the Raikage.

Considering that the Cloud went to war solely to arrange for a treaty to happen under false pretenses so they could steal the Byakugan, and it was A's representative that did the actual kidnapping, A had to be responsible for it.

So yes, that whole thing was his fault.

Sasuke, while severely mentally compromised, defected villages, invaded other villages, tried to kidnap one guy("a pretty standard war thing,") and killed a handful of enemy combatants. He also tried to assassinate the leaders of the Hidden Villages.

In other words, things that every single Hidden Village has done. The Gold and Silver Brothers are considered heroes even though they tried to murder the Second Hokage.

Why does A get away with doing "standard War stuff" but Sasuke doesn't? When Sasuke did it becuase he had a copy of a psychopath's mind-influencing his actions up until the moment he went legitimately insane. When Sasuke is actually remorseful of it when with A it never actually comes up.

That's the double standard.

@Bleakbane:

I think you misunderstood the purpose of Izanami.

It's basically an extended time out. The technique was created as a punishment for people who abused Izanagi to change reality to their liking instead of merel to get out of dying. Essentially, the technique is designed to force someone to examine their actions and accept that there are some things that they can't control and that they are not perfect Gods.

Kabuto wasn't mindraped into being good. Kabuto, while trapped in a time loop, eventually started examining his life up to that point and his actions, accepted that he was flawed, and was released from the technique once he had an epiphany that cured him of his God Complex.

Kabuto's face-turn was the result of his own choices once he was freed from the illusion.

[Lord Raziere]

He is Vegetta who loves in the next door town instead of the same place as Goku.

So no difference? (Goku's home isn't anywhere near West City)

as for Kabuto: I dunno Rater, Kabuto just seems to be that character who got very little screen time but something had to be done with him because if your going to write a story you might as well use the parts you have and Orochimaru was dead and there wasn't a convenient enough contrivance to revive him yet so he couldn't do the thing, but Kabuto was there and he was like, his assistant or something surely he could do the same thing, but why would he do that uuuuuuuh he wanted to surpass his master yeah. totally. he was totally a strong enough ninja to pull that off or something.

and he totally has cells of all his former co-workers stored away somewhere and totally somehow made some concoction out of all of them that flawlessly worked to make him more immortal than Oorchimaru in like......less than a few months after Orochimaru got killed by Sasuke? at most? what was the timeframe on Orochimaru's death to Fourth Shinobi war? couldn't have been that long. when Orochimaru couldn't do the same in......decades? I mean its not inconsistent with how some young ninja somehow flawlessly pull off things that old kages and grown up ninja geniuses never achieve.

but still, it smacks of "we need to do SOMETHING with Kabuto and he hasn't had enough screen time to show him doing things, and we also need a lot of enemies for this big ninja army to fight, but it'll be boring to show them killing nothing but Zetsus." so they say he is some superninja who surpassed Orochimaru out of nowhere and give a bunch of DNA that he or Orochimaru somehow acquired through ridiculous amounts of graverobbing to make people come back and have a bunch of closure moments.

and even if Kishimoto intended this....sorry to say but no matter how well intended, Kabuto as a character could've been better executed in general. he barely does anything to make him notable other than to be some villains lackey, then he disappears and becomes a non-entity so we can focus on Sasuke, then comes back at the very end, problem is no matter how right or wrong you are about his abilities, the fact remains that Orochimaru probably did most of the work putting that genetic concoction together, he was probably just holding off until he somehow get Sasuke's DNA into the mix as well so all Kabuto was really doing, is piggybacking/stealing Orochimaru's work and using it in a slightly more practical manner at the expense of missing out on slightly more ultimate power.

like the timeframe is so short, it wouldn't surprise me if the notes for doing what he did was just Orochimaru's notes but with his name crossed out and replaced with Kabuto's. that Kabuto was less surpassing his teacher, and more becoming his teacher 2.0 using his leftover ideas that weren't quite as good as "ultimate power with a fully unlocked six paths rinnegan and immortality through byzantine genetic concoction."

so practically speaking, he did, but at the same time, he arguably missed the true prize that Orochimaru was going that would've been even better.

[LaZodiac]

It's important to recognize that Sasuke was not under any sort of mind ****er, he was just really depressed and a little insane due to the Uchiha insanity eyeball chakra. But after a certain point that stops being a thing and he becomes sane again. The point in question is when he kills Itachi, one of the first things he does in Shippuden. Everything done after that is him in a right frame of mind and not being manipulated.

Here are things he has done while sane, some of which you excluded Rater so I'm bolding for emphasis. I'm also bolding the REASON why he did things, which is VERY RELEVANT, in my opinion. He tried to kill all the world leaders BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BECOME THE ULTIMATE DARKNESS OF THE WORLD. He stabbed one of his allies and left her for dead for no reason. He, when everyone was sealed up by the tree and waiting for him and Naruto to shake hands so the seal would be broken, decided to try and kill all of the world leaders again before helping unseal things. Because of this, the world almost lost the ability to be saved by one of them risking death in this fight.

This is not normal ninja ****, and again I really much emphasize that the REASON it was done is why it is unforgivable, not the act itself. I'm not saying SHIKAMARU shouldn't be redeemed because of the rather torturous way he killed Hidan, because HIDAN IS A BAD GUY WHO DESERVED IT, and Shikamaru is a good guy getting revenge on a psycho murderer. This is not the same as Sasuke trying to kill the world leaders so he can take over as the ultimate evil force in the world.

Also, I really want to make it clear that my issue is that THE WRITING IS BAD, not specifically that Sasuke gets his redemption. I'd accept all of this if the writing for his redemption was good, because it would cover all this ****. But the writing is bad, so all I can really say is "writing is bad, Sasuke should not have gotten redeemed given the context of the series".

[Rater202]

Yes, Kabuto improved upon Orochimaru's research. Tha'ts explicit, since Orochimaru was the first person to try transplanting cells from people into others to gain their powers.

You will however note that there's a major difference between "gain all of several differant people's powers and techniques" and "kill the vast majority of the test subjects and give the sole survivor out of almost a hundred a weaker version of one of the powers in the cell."

It's even noted that Oorchimaru tried to give himself Jugo's bloodline but couldn't.

As for how Kabuto had the cells of various Ninja on hand, remember: Orochimaru and Kabuto were using various Sound Ninja as test subjects. The sound Ninja 4 were successful test subjects for prototype Curse Marks and Karin is explicitly referred to as a "successful experiment" by Orochimaru. Of course Jugo's cells are on file, theyr'e what the Curse Mark's are made from, and so on.

As for not using Sasuke's cells:

Kabuto noted that Orochimaru's theory was that combining the DNA and chakra of a Senju prodigy with a fully mature Sharingan would create the Rinnegan.

If you remember, Kabuto's "price" for providing an army of zombies to bolster Obito's forces was that Obito had to give him 1 Zetsu and Sasuke. Kabuto's plan was to merge the Zetsu with Sasuke(giving Sasuke Wood Release and HAsirama's DNA and Chakra) and then absorb Sasuke into his own body, which would have given Kabuto Sasuke's power(augmented by the Zetsu) and his almost fully matured Sharingan.

It's important to recognize that Sasuke was not under any sort of mind ****er, he was just really depressed and a little insane due to the Uchiha insanity eyeball chakra. But after a certain point that stops being a thing and he becomes sane again. The point in question is when he kills Itachi, one of the first things he does in Shippuden. Everything done after that is him in a right frame of mind and not being manipulated.

Uh, no.

Sasuke went insane sometimes after killing Itachi. There's a point in time where he's talking to people who aren't there and he shows several different signs of mental illness during the time between killing Itachi and encountering Zombie Itachi, and even then the fact that he thought that killing the Five Kages would work tells me that he was still insane afterward, he was just lucid.

And his "not being under any sort of mind ****er," uh... Remember how, in the forest o death when fighting Orochimaru, Sasuke gave up on his quest for vengeance, saying something along the lines of "what good is it if I can't protect the teammates I have now."

And remember how he was immediate "Oh God, with this power I can get my revenge" when he woke up.

The Curse Marks influence your behavior, making you act the way Orochimaru wants you to, and the more you use it the more influence he has over you. This is explicitly stated in the Manga.

Sasuke's culpability for his actions was compromised from the second Orochimaru bit him and it gets worse every time the curse mark activates. He gets freed of it, eventually, but immediately afterward he experiences the thing that drives all Uchia permanently insane.

So if it's intent that matters: How is a mentally ill person planning to kill the people who are responsible for a status quo that caused nothing but suffering in a misguided attempt to save the world less forgivable than planing to kidnap a 4-year-old and(at best) rip out her eyes because you selfishly covet the power of her bloodline?

[Ramza00]

Sasuke despaired for this world has no inherent meaning, only self created meaning. And in a world with no inherent meaning only self created meaning, why would you choose to be cruel instead of kind? It is an absurd thing!

Thus Sasuke decided he will burn the world to the ground, destroy this cruel system, and become the ultimate evil of the world for if the world must turn (instead of being dust and memory, with no one to remember it.) At least needs the cruel Sasuke will bear the sins of the world like some Atlas Titan and will continue to make the world spin. Sasuke will only allow a false choice of tyranny or absolute destruction.

Is this any different than the insanity that is Obito, Madara, Pain, etc? Nope it is the exact same false bargain.

—————

Sasuke has his heal face turn for there was an equal / superior to him that still believed in kindness, and this person who believed in kindness would never ever give up for that is his ninja way. Thus the world may still be worth saving in Sasuke’s mind.

[Rater202]

Another observation I made... More of a theory, really, I made recently about Jugo's clan.

Jugo's nameless clan has a nameless Kekkei Genkai that grants a power called "Sage Transformation," or in Japanese "Senninka, 仙人化."

The same term, written with the same characters, is also used for the act of becoming the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, and...

What does the Ten-Tails/God Tree do? It changes its shape in a variety of ways. It passively takes in natural energy, It can drain chakra. It can absorb people and recycle their biomass to make Zetsu's. Becoming it's Jinchuriki automatically gives you Sage Mode.

What does Jugo's Kekkei Genkai do? It allows the user to change their body in a variety of ways. It allows the user to passive absorb natural energy and, automatically gives them a form of Sage Mode(Though Jugo doesn't get to pick when he uses it and tends to be a bit... Homicidal when it activates,) it less you drain chakra. It can absorb people and recycle their biomass to make more of your own body's cells.

It's basically the same powers, just on a small scale: The Ten-Tails is on the macro scale while the Bloodline is on the personal scale.

Aesthetically: Sage Mode achieved through both Jugo's bloodline and through the Ten-Tails are characterized by horns of some kind and Obito's heavily mutated form(and mindless berserker state when he first uses it) compared to Madara more humanlike and elegant form as the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki draws a comparison to Jugo's monstrous Sage Mode and berserker rage versus the minimized physical changes and no sign of such rage employed by Kabuto.

Spoiler: Recent Boruto stuff

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and the curse marks Orochimaru created from studying Jugo's bloodline turn out to be very, very similar to the Kama created Otsusukis, who create the god trees and cultivate hem for their own use.

All of these facts lined up, especially the fact that they use the exact same terminology, tells me that there is most definitely a connection between the two.

[Aotrs Commander]

@Bleakbane:

I think you misunderstood the purpose of Izanami.

It's basically an extended time out. The technique was created as a punishment for people who abused Izanagi to change reality to their liking instead of merel to get out of dying. Essentially, the technique is designed to force someone to examine their actions and accept that there are some things that they can't control and that they are not perfect Gods.

Kabuto wasn't mindraped into being good. Kabuto, while trapped in a time loop, eventually started examining his life up to that point and his actions, accepted that he was flawed, and was released from the technique once he had an epiphany that cured him of his God Complex.

Kabuto's face-turn was the result of his own choices once he was freed from the illusion.

Oh, I undestand just fine, but I just don't CARE what the in-universe jusification for it is, because out-of-universe it's conceptually-abhorrent bad writiing.

You like to defend everything from an in-uinverse perspective. I only bother when the writing is not so obtrusively bad it makes it impossible. When I'm arguing with the Man Behind The Screen, it really doesn't matter what he tells the projection to say, because I'm not looking at it.

[Rater202]

Oh, I undestand just fine, but I just don't CARE what the in-universe jusification for it is, because out-of-universe it's conceptually-abhorrent bad writiing.

You like to defend everything from an in-universe perspective. I only bother when the writing is not so obtrusively bad it makes it impossible. When I'm arguing with the Man Behind The Screen, it really doesn't matter what he tells the projection to say, because I'm not looking at it.

You're changing arguments.

You called Kabuto's face-turn the result of being mind rapped into being good. I pointed out that Izanami doesn't work that way.

I'd also note that I've argued based on narrative tropes in addition to in-universe logic: I explained how his stated goal of surpassing Orochimaru and his status as one of Naruto's counterparts necessitated his immortality.

I mean, "you know that gut who was the main villain for half the Manga? I turned myself into a better version of him but oops I died like a bitch becuase I've got nothing to support my delusions" would be anti-climactic.

He's another narrative reason for why he had to be redeemed: The Medic Nin that adopted him also adopted another boy. In the manga, there is a scene of a man from the leaf village as part of the Allied Shinobi Forces who chats with another ninja and mentions that he hopes his brother Kabuto doesn't get caught up in all of this and that he'll be able to come home soon becuase he misses him.

The very existence of this scene means that Kabuto was going to go home.

[Rater202]

(Hopefully, enough time has passed that this doesn't count as an illegal double post.)

So, with little to do to cope with my boredom, I decided that now would be a good time to get caught up on the Boruto anime in detail.

So, inspired by Bleakbane's own posts, here's Rater catching up with Boruto.

It's not gonna be as detailed as Bleakbane's though, since I'm not writing as I watch.

Spoiler: Boruto Uzumaki

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"The academy is when I got to know your father."

That's a really weird way to say "I used to stalk your father when I was your age."

Denki's father beat him when he tried to say he didn't want to be a Ninja. Nothing comes of this yet because denki changed his mind after meeting Bort.

Boruto takes the wrap for derailing the train instead of saying "I saw this weird aura around Denki and he was acting strange. He snapped out of it and acted confused about what happened but by then it was too late." Denki wouldn't have gotten in trouble(weird things that mess with your mind are well known, plus...) and his mother's family have magic eyes that see things invisible to the naked eye. In addition, both of his parents have God Powers. People would take him at his word if he said he saw something weird

Spoiler: The Hokage's Son

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Borts classmates are alienated from him because he derailed a train but come around with when he beats up the class delinquent.

Said delinquent is bitter becuase he's been held back twice despite clearly being a talented ninja, showing proficient with all of the academy's techniques, being very skilled at Taijutsu and weapon use, and even being able to use elemental Ninjutsu which are usually restricted to Chunin level or higher Ninja. He claims he was held back becuase the Hokage changed the rules and now you need a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with being a Ninja, but Boruto claims it's becuase he has a ba work ethic...

I mean, we see Iwabe skipping classes but we don't see what he was like a few years before and we don't actually know that much about the curriculum... I can kind of see where Iwabe's coming from.

Spoiler: Metal Lee Goes Wild

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So, in contrast to his father who has no talent for being a Ninja but makes up for it via hard work and being a martial arts genius(explicitly called such by Kakashi,) his son Metal has a strong natural aptitude for Ninja skills but works just as hard as his dad. If he doesn't kick a man in half at some point I will be disappoint.

However, Metal has crippling performance anxiety... Huh, I can relate. Flunked an important exam in Middle school becuase I was too nervous to give a phony sales pitch in front of a crowd of strangers.

Temari is an abusive wife and mother but it's played for laughs becuase this is anime, and Shikadi is basically just his father all over again, but at least realizes he was being insensitive.

Also, Shino is a bad teacher. Bort and Iwabe broke the rules but nobody else did anything. He explicitly says he's invoking collective responsibility, which is a jerk move. Metal and... Class Rep end up participating in the punishment even though they were only supposed to be supervising it, which results in Metal making things worse when he realizes how important what they're doing it.

Shikadi says something insensitive, which results in Metal getting jacked by the same strange chakra as before and going on a rampage. No consequences, Bort still doesn't tell anyone that people are being posessed.

Spoiler: Ninjutsu Battle of the Sexes

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Horrible cliches and shine misunderstanding advice lead to the shine splitting the class into boys vs girls and making them fight over a ***.

Miraculously it ends well when Bort botches a summon, almost kills Chocho, drops everything to save her leading Sarada to drop everything to save him and Inojin and shikadi to drop everything to save her. shikadi and Inocjin do not seem to be friends with chocho, which is kind of sad.

But still, polarizing the class like that instead of making them talk it out was bad teaching on shino's part. Also, setting explosive traps int he school kind of means it's his fault that it broke.

Spoiler: The Mysterious Transfer student

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Okay, this is three episodes in a row of Shino being a bad teacher.

"You got the right answer, but you didn't do it exactly as I explained it." **** you, Shino! If the method followed reliably gives accurate answers then it's the correct method, it doesn't matter if it's not exactly as taught. Considering that we are shown that Hinata takes Borth's education seriously and he's shown studying intensely he's clearly doing it right and he showed his work so you can easily verify if he did something wrong that could cause troubles with a different problem. allegedly, this method even gives more accurate answers than the method taught in class.

God damn, high school algebra was a fracking nightmare becuase of people like shine... And these are twelve-year-olds doing complex formulaic equations the likes of which you'd see in college calculus so Jesus Christ cut them some slack. I'm wondering if this bullcrap is why Iwabe failed twice, losing points on correct answers for not showing his work "right."

Boruto asks for something a bit more challenging, so Shino gives him an equation that apparently they haven't taught yet.. and then when Mitsuki explains what kind of equation it is and starts showing Boruto how to solve it, Shino tells Mitsuki off for doing so and when Mitsuki says "I thought we were supposed to help each other learn" Shino replies that it doesn't count if they can't do it themselves... Even though all Mitsuki was doing was showing Boruto how to do it himself.

There's a reason why your students don't respect you Shino. It's becuase you don't deserve it. You're a bad teacher. You are 100% on the money when you say you aren't suited to teach.

...as demonstrated by the party. Good sentiment, terrible execution.

I also notice that Sarada is wearing heels. As a Ninja... No. Bad.

Boruto still doesn't tell anyone about the strange thing influencing people, which presumably means that the builder is going to prison.