The LA-assignment thread

[Inevitability]

So far most people seem to support either +6 or +7, with a few asking for lower LA's. +6 seems a fitting compromise to me here.

No change to LA.

[Daedroth]

Well, after the highes LA assigned in the thread next i supose we move on a LA+0 fest, given how crappy is Elemental HD

Altough i expect the 3 lesser elementals of each kind can still give us some decent critters for they ECL.

[Flickerdart]

Altough i expect the 3 lesser elementals of each kind can still give us some decent critters for they ECL.

Savage Species gives us some baseline LAs for the Large elementals, at least the 3.0 versions. We're looking at +6 for the Air one, +5 for Earth, +6 for Fire, and +5 for Water. Naturally, giving ECL14 to a CR5 creature is absolute nonsense, but the way the ECL scales is interesting - the first 4 levels give 4 hit dice.

Would I play a Small or Medium elemental at LA0? Let's just say that 100ft perfect fly speed or earth glide are worth a hell of a lot more than "make stuff wet" or "deal negligible fire damage."

[Hurnn]

I think LA 5 is reasonable, 6 feels to high but it appears i'm out voted.

[Inevitability]

Elemental, Air

After browsing a few hundred pictures, I've come to the conclusion there's two ways to portray air elementals: 'mist person' and 'tornado person'. Ironically, both these things are closer to water than air.

All air elementals have air mastery, which gives airborne creatures a whopping -1 on attacks and damage. They can also turn into whirlwinds, which is actually pretty nice as long as you weren't planning on making AoO's.

Small Air Elemental

The smallest size these critters come in, at 2 RHD. Elemental RHD alone are pretty bad, especially air RHD, but they do give some useful immunities. Ability-wise, smalls trade 6 points of intelligence for an equivalent dexterity bonus.

Small elementals enjoy (perfect) fly speed, as well as some natural armor (the logistics of which I won't dwell on). The 1d4 slam is better not used, but the two bonus feats are very welcome on the kind of build that would want to be this monster in the first place.

Flight is a major ability at low levels, especially at this maneuverability. The whirlwind is nearly useless, but the two free feats are pretty huge. +1 LA for now, though I do admit it's close to +0.

Medium Air Elemental

The next step up is 4 HD.

Mediums have larger physical bonuses and a size increase: apart from that they're very similar to small elementals. I guess one could make a case for +1 LA, but I'm assigning them +0.

Large Air Elemental

8 HD this time. The DR is pretty neat, but the increase to ability scores is much smaller compared to the small --> medium jump. The extra slam isn't that impressive either. I doubt there will be many medium creatures to whirlwind around by this level, too. -0 LA.

Huge Air Elemental

The 8 HD increase should be enough to write this one off: if it isn't just remember this thing's ECL is more than twice its CR. -0 LA.

Greater Air Elemental

Extra DR? I'm sure this'll help me fight solars, titans and great wyrms. Did I mention all three can already summon multiple GAE's? -0 LA.

Elder Air Elemental

If I'm not mistaken, the 'update' here is a net +6 to stats for three extra HD. -0 LA.

[almondsAndRain]

I agree with the assigned LAs. It sounds like Elementals are going to go the way Dragons did.

[Flickerdart]

I agree with the assigned LAs. It sounds like Elementals are going to go the way Dragons did.

Honestly, Small air elementals are much more playable than most if not all wyrmlings.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, Small air elementals are much more playable than most if not all wyrmlings.

That's probably true.

I think I agree with these LAs. Flight is very good, but it would be crazy not to put air elementals at a lower ECL than e.g. imps.

[Flickerdart]

Going through the index, I realized it might be nice to have some kind of note on the +0 LA creatures to distinguish ones balanced at that LA, and ones that are far too weak even with LA +0. Consider for example someone browsing the list for ideas of what monster they can play and seeing an Adult Green Dragon and a Pit Fiend both at ECL 20. "Oh, Mr. Rebalance Guy has deemed that they are the same strength" the reader might think, only to have their hopes savagely dashed in-game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Going through the index, I realized it might be nice to have some kind of note on the +0 LA creatures to distinguish ones balanced at that LA, and ones that are far too weak even with LA +0. Consider for example someone browsing the list for ideas of what monster they can play and seeing an Adult Green Dragon and a Pit Fiend both at ECL 20. "Oh, Mr. Rebalance Guy has deemed that they are the same strength" the reader might think, only to have their hopes savagely dashed in-game.

How about calling that LA −0? (as in, it should have negative LA, but they do not exist, so we write a 'fake' negative that's also positive)

[Strigon]

Going through the index, I realized it might be nice to have some kind of note on the +0 LA creatures to distinguish ones balanced at that LA, and ones that are far too weak even with LA +0. Consider for example someone browsing the list for ideas of what monster they can play and seeing an Adult Green Dragon and a Pit Fiend both at ECL 20. "Oh, Mr. Rebalance Guy has deemed that they are the same strength" the reader might think, only to have their hopes savagely dashed in-game.

LA (eewww...)

[Flickerdart]

How about calling that LA −0? (as in, it should have negative LA, but they do not exist, so we write a 'fake' negative that's also positive)

LA -0, I like it.

[AMX]

I was thinking "LA <0" FWIW

[DracoDei]

"-0" appeals to the mathematician in me.

[Inevitability]

Several creatures have had their LA updated to '-0' as per the community's suggestion. A short explanatory text has been added to the first post.

Spoiler: New -0 LA creatures

Show

-Animated Object (Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal)
-Arrowhawk (Adult, Elder)
-Athach
-Abyssal Greater Basilisk
-Belker
-Bugbear
-Chaos Beast
-Chuul
-Delver
-Derro
-Destrachan
-Digester
-Dinosaur (Elasmosaur, Megaraptor, Triceratops, Tyrannosaur)
-Dire Animal (Dire Bat, Dire Bear, Dire Boar, Dire Lion, Dire Shark, Dire Tiger, Dire Wolf)
-Displacer Beast Pack Lord
-Dragons (All except white, brass and silver wyrmlings)
-Air Elemental (Large, Huge, Greater, Elder)

If you feel like a monster was wrongly given this assignment, or another monster should be added to the -0 LA list, please help us help you by saying so.

[danielxcutter]

Great job, Dire! It saddens me that the Rakshasa won't be coming up until much later(especially since I really need it for a comic I'm making), but this is still really good. Hmm, wonder how a Succubus Bard would be...

[Caelestion]

I don't think I ever asked at the time, given dragons' near-universal ability to be let down by their abilities vs. their HD, do you think that Pathfinder's dragons only getting 2 HD per age category would make any significant difference?

[Inevitability]

I don't think I ever asked at the time, given dragons' near-universal ability to be let down by their abilities vs. their HD, do you think that Pathfinder's dragons only getting 2 HD per age category would make any significant difference?

That'd vary greatly depending on the individual dragon's abilities, which are (if I remember correctly) also different in pathfinder. To come to a sensible conclusion, I'd have to actively assign all pathfinder dragons a proper LA. I don't think it'd make too big a difference, though.

By the way, doesn't pathfinder have a rule that any monster can be played as long as its ECL is no lower than its HD or CR?

[jindra34]

By the way, doesn't pathfinder have a rule that any monster can be played as long as its ECL is no lower than its HD or CR?

The basic pathfinder rule is that its ECL is equal to the higher of CR and HD. And if the CR is higher than the HD you gain an extra level to help make of for it every few levels until you have levels+HD equal to ECL. So yes?

[Inevitability]

Elemental, Earth

Just noted that according to their description earth elementals look like the material from which they're conjured, which I guess is pretty cool. The only problem: what happens when you try to summon one on a ship, or up in the air?

Small Earth Elemental

Smalls aren't that bad, to be honest. Their speed sucks, but their ability adjustments are fairly nice (also atypical for a small creature). Earth Mastery is pretty useful at low levels, then becomes a horrible liability as everything gets a fly speed.

Push is basically a watered-down version of Improved Bull Rush... which will be near-useless on a small creature. Also, bull rushing just isn't that strong.

More interesting is Earth Glide. It's a very potent exploration tool, getting the elemental past about everything except for metal-lined walls.

In the end, I'm going to refrain from assigning a positive LA here. Small earth elementals pretty much only have Earth Glide going for them, which while nice isn't enough to make them a viable choice. Remember: any druid can just get a small earth elemental companion and have it scout. +0 LA.

Medium Earth Elemental

Again, no positive LA. The strength score is swanky, but a well-built mineral warrior is surpassing you in most ways by now. -0 LA.

Large Earth Elemental

8 RHD should be a pretty good deterrent. -0 LA.

Huge Earth Elemental

The party caster has been able to summon those for a few levels now. Pass.

Greater Earth Elemental

Justifying my assignments is overrated! -0 LA for you!

Elder Earth Elemental

I like your alliteration, have -0 LA.

[Daedroth]

I made a negative LA thread for those poor LA-0 souls, if someone is interested:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ead&p=21399451


By the way, Dire Stirge, were you considering the use of Sovereign Archerypes on dragons?

[Inevitability]

Elemental, Fire

I considered writing a long post on the logical (im)possibilities of living fire that doesn't need fuel or oxygen here, then I remembered magic.

Small Fire Elemental

These guys are pretty cool (ironic, I know). The net loss to stats hurts, but two free feats are always welcome and their slams have a nice rider effect. 50 feet is as good as it gets for small creatures, and the fire subtype will probably be a boon overall.

However, is all this worth 2 subpar RHD? A fairly typical melee character is still outdamaging them, and fire elementals lack much utility beyond setting stuff on fire. +0 LA is fine.

Medium Fire Elemental

More fire damage! Also stat boosts. I'd say +0 still works here (with -0 looming ever closer).

Large Fire Elemental

Aaaaand RHD takes over. Back to the realm of -0 LA with ye!

Huge Fire Elemental

Elemental Purgatory aaaaaaaaaaw yeah! -0 LA.

Greater Fire Elemental

Homework for today, sketch the graph A = 2^m where 'A' is my annoyance (measured in kilogroans) and 'm' is number of boring -0 LA monsters.

Elder Fire Elemental

Amusing observation: fire and air elementals are amongst the few creatures that get more dextrous when increasing in size. Not that it'll save them from -0 LA.

[Daedroth]

Dire Stirge, are you sure a small fire damage is worth something? Energy Resistance 5 brings that extra damage to nothing/almost nothing.

[Troacctid]

Reflex negates for 2.5d4 damage (over time) on a base-1d4 slam attack is definitely less valuable than the earth elemental's flat +4 damage (from +6 Str) on a base-1d6 slam attack.

[Inevitability]

Reflex negates for 2.5d4 damage (over time) on a base-1d4 slam attack is definitely less valuable than the earth elemental's flat +4 damage (from +6 Str) on a base-1d6 slam attack.

Fire elementals don't only set stuff ablaze with their touch, they also deal a set amount of fire damage on each attack and deal damage to foes that strike them with natural weapons or unarmed strikes.

[khadgar567]

Fire elementals don't only set stuff ablaze with their touch, they also deal a set amount of fire damage on each attack and deal damage to foes that strike them with natural weapons or unarmed strikes.

So one possible fix is allowing them to set things on fire by making save aginst their hardness

[Inevitability]

So one possible fix is allowing them to set things on fire by making save aginst their hardness

What do you mean 'one possible fix'? On that note, what does 'making a save against their hardness' even mean?

[Tiri]

I think Khadgar was under the impression that fire elementals could not set objects on fire. He therefore proposed a fix which involved them being able to do so, as long as they made a save against the object's hardness.

Of course, that's not how hardness usually works, but it was proposed as a modification to the rules.

[khadgar567]

I think Khadgar was under the impression that fire elementals could not set objects on fire. He therefore proposed a fix which involved them being able to do so, as long as they made a save against the object's hardness.

Of course, that's not how hardness usually works, but it was proposed as a modification to the rules.

Thanks tiri i was posting from phone and didnt think what i wrote

[Inevitability]

Elemental, Water

I was very tempted to use Extract Water Elemental's image here. We need something more interesting than waves with faces!

Small Water Elemental

Unsurprisingly, water elementals are swift swimmers. They have a pretty neat natural armor bonus, bonuses to melee stats, the ability to extinguish fires both magical and mundane, and the horribad Water Mastery. -4 to attack and damage rolls if your foe is touching the ground is very annoying.

Water elementals can also turn into vortices, which is much like an air elemental's whirlwind (to the point that it uses Whirlwind's terminology in places), but ultimately much less useful as it only works underwater.

I suppose water elementals may be worth playing in a handful of games, though. +0 LA, but only barely.

Medium Water Elemental

Vortex is inferior to Whirlwind, melee ability is inferior to an earth elemental's... I'm not seeing any reasons to play those, especially not with extra HD. -0 LA.

Large Water Elemental

So yeah, everyone knows elementals are doomed to -0 LA from large size on, so I'm very surprised if anyone is still reading this.

Huge Water Elemental

On the upside, I looked ahead and there doesn't seem to be another string of similar, high-HD, low-CR monsters for quite some time.

-0 LA, by the way.

Greater Water Elemental

Doesn't seem that great to me. -0 LA.

Elder Water Elemental

I am seriously wondering whether putting '-0 LA' here is worth the effort. I mean: it's not like anyone doesn't know it already.

And with that, we finish the last elemental! Next are elves: that ought to be easy.