The LA-assignment thread

[Novolin]

Why do race hit dice even exist?

[Celestia]

[citation needed]



It just says "Creatures with 1 or less HD". Where does it say that only applies to creatures that naturally have 1 or less HD?


(Personally, I'm of the "if you get level drained and then level up again, you need to take levels in the same classes you took before getting level drained" school of thought, but that's a house rule.)

It looks like you are correct.

Why do race hit dice even exist?

Because monsters need a way to get stronger without taking class levels.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why do race hit dice even exist?

In the Gnoll's case, they are the logical progression of "monstrous" humanoid's (IE: not a core-race) for PC's to fight. They have RHD so they have a baseline difficulty built in. General progress is Kobold=Goblin -> Orc -> Gnoll -> Lizardfolk probably. Remember, the designer's were making a system where lots of things were possible that weren't in previous editions. They made them good as monsters/antagonists and then remembered that they wanted to make everything 'playable'. So they slapped LA on them, since their stat mods were better and they had Natural Armor.

[No brains]

Why do race hit dice even exist?

Another reason was so that things could work well as enemies. Creatures with only class levels would be at least as deadly as the PCs. The designers needed something to make the PCs look good, so they made crappy creature-type HD.

[Tiri]

Another reason was so that things could work well as enemies. Creatures with only class levels would be at least as deadly as the PCs. The designers needed something to make the PCs look good, so they made crappy creature-type HD.

Of course, they were so bad at balance that some types' Hit Dice turned out better than certain actual classes.

[Celestia]

Of course, they were so bad at balance that some types' Hit Dice turned out better than certain actual classes.

I don't know what you're talking about. Fighter is way better than dragon HD. Fighters get eleven bonus feats. Eleven! And they get the same feats as everyone else. They're, like, twice as good as a regular character! In fact, fighters might even be too powerful...

[Caelestion]

In my Pathfinder game, one of my players had a long-standing gnoll cohort. In the end, I just scrapped the gnoll's RHD and allowed him to level normally.

[Inevitability]

Gnome

Another player race! Another wacky picture!

Rock Gnome

Literally the default PC race. Unique feats and PrC's (hint hint shadowcraft mage, hint hint blade bravo) make this a good choice for many builds, so the +0 LA shouldn't have to be explained.

Forest Gnome

If it weren't for whisper gnomes, I bet those would be seeing a lot more play. Continous Pass Without Trace, an extra hide bonus, extra bonuses against common foes, and Speak With Animals has a few types switched around and becomes at-will; all this at barely any cost compared to regular gnomes. Even so, +0 LA is plenty.

Svirfneblin

Svirfneblin, or deep gnomes, are different from their surface cousins in a number of notable ways. The ability scores are almost completely changed (though stay roughly equal in power), SR has been added, SLA's with a huge bonus to the save DC are tacked on, long-range darkvision is now usable... In addition, a large number of granular bonuses are gained, as well as blanket bonuses to AC and saving throws. Svirfneblin also have a number of race-exclusive feats (Summon Earth Elemental is pretty nifty) while still qualifying for all regular gnome goodies.

The official LA of +3 is (obviously) far too much. +1 is probably a better assignment, though they will probably be on the strong side of that LA.

[remetagross]

For deep gnomes, I think even LA +2 is a bit harsh. As we know, SR is both a curse and a blessing. Having a Dex modifier instead of a Con one is quite a setback, and combined with the -4 in Cha, somewhat offsets the Wis bonus, I'd say. Darkvision is neat, but will one day be offset by magical items anyway. The SLAs are nice, as well as the permanent Nondetection. I'd advocate for a +1.

[Celestia]

I know I sure as hell still wouldn't play a deep gnome at +2. Virtually every other gnome is better than that.

[GilesTheCleric]

I know I sure as hell still wouldn't play a deep gnome at +2. Virtually every other gnome is better than that.

I agree, but I'm torn in terms of other folks. LA+1 makes it too powerful for most lower-op games, since it does get some really nice things (1/day Blindness, +4 AC, about the best SR that's commonly available, +2 to saves), and in a higher-op game it's also not terrible (constant Nondetection, 1/day Blur, DC bonus). I don't think that those benefits are worth two caster levels, nor are they super worthwhile for mundanes (especially with the statline -- investing in dex-to-dmg is expensive). I'd be fine with it at LA+1 in a higher-op game, and LA+2 in a lower-op game.

It just doesn't scale very well past low levels -- Nondetection's DC can't be boosted, nor really can the SLAs. The SR becomes more hassle than it's worth at higher levels and in higher op. I'd say this is a great race to exemplify the benefits of LA buyoff.

The statline makes these an okay Cleric or Druid (or Monk, perhaps), but I personally wouldn't recommend it if it costs two caster levels. At LA+1, it's possibly worth considering.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Be my guest.

Neat. Don't expect anyone to see it.

As for the ISS, bad comparison; it has a higher terminal velocity and does not require pressurization to not die in space. The person at 250 miles will fall back to ground, but as a corpse. (I did say relevant speed). As an interesting side note at 250 miles there is an approximately 3% reduction in the effect of Earth's gravity compared to the ground.

I...don't think you understand the relevant science. As a reminder, you said "...it will land you so high up gravity will not pull you toward the surface at any relevant speed." Terminal velocity doesn't matter; all that matters is the acceleration of gravity and velocity of the object, both relative to the body in question (ie, the Earth). For more information from someone who used to work at NASA (admittedly not plotting rocket trajectories, but he plays KSP so that should balance out), look here.

I disagree with your assessment sver...sivir...of dark gnomes.

Well, I disagree with your assessment of whatever they're called.

Yet again we have an example where some kind of notation for borderline LA's would be useful. Though the difficulty a character would have in pronouncing their own race's name is a serious disadvantage; this makes the svirneblin clearly deserve LA +1 in my books.

[Flickerdart]

Neat. Don't expect anyone to see it.

Dang. Don't you know that I get paid by the view?

[Malimar]

Yeah, I don't think svirfneblin really get anything really noteworthy other than SR and +4 AC (well, +6 if you factor in size and dex). All the other stuff is just a heap of +1s and +2s, which aren't worth a class level. Still, that SR is high enough to be relevant (50% shot of your enemy wasting a spell? neat!) for awhile, if not for the whole game, so I think they should be more than a +0 on that alone -- not that every party necessarily encounters spellcasters very often, making it a tad situational, plus the whole thing where SR is a double-edged sword. Now that I talk about it, I'm almost convincing myself to suggest a high +0 (I'd probably still strongly consider playing an LA+0 warforged or lesser planetouched over even an LA+0 svirfneblin). +2 is definitely too high.

So all in all I concur with those saying +1 for svirfneblin.

[Inevitability]

I yield before the masses! LA changed to +1.

[No brains]

Of course, they were so bad at balance that some types' Hit Dice turned out better than certain actual classes.

I don't know what you're talking about. Fighter is way better than dragon HD. Fighters get eleven bonus feats. Eleven! And they get the same feats as everyone else. They're, like, twice as good as a regular character! In fact, fighters might even be too powerful...

Well human, animal, aberration, giant, and other crappy types were made so the PCs can *look* good. Dragons, outsiders, and magical beasts are there so the the PCs can *prove* they're good.

[Tiri]

Well human, animal, aberration, giant, and other crappy types were made so the PCs can *look* good. Dragons, outsiders, and magical beasts are there so the the PCs can *prove* they're good.

Unless the PCs happen to be fighters or something like that. Then they just look bad.

[RedMage125]

Had a thought about Gnolls and Racial Hit Dice.

If a DM were to allow a gnoll PC to take the Otherworldy feat from PGtF at 1st level, those racial Hit Dice would become Outsider Hit Dice, and then the Gnoll would actually be decent (Fighter BAB, Rogue Skills, Monk saves).

[Celestia]

Had a thought about Gnolls and Racial Hit Dice.

If a DM were to allow a gnoll PC to take the Otherworldy feat from PGtF at 1st level, those racial Hit Dice would become Outsider Hit Dice, and then the Gnoll would actually be decent (Fighter BAB, Rogue Skills, Monk saves).

So, the gnoll sucks so much that it either has two horrid HD or two okay HD with negative one feat? Yeah still looks like a loss either way.

[Caelestion]

With no racial Hit Dice, they're merely weak, so I also like to give them Pathfinder's Carrion Sense (a limited scent ability, which only functions for corpses and creatures with 50% or fewer hit points remaining). The default gnoll sucks.

[Lemongrove]

What do you think a huecava would be?.

[zergling.exe]

What do you think a huecava would be?.

This thread goes in alphabetical order by book, still in the Monster Manual. The huecava is likely a long ways off for being rated.

[Inevitability]

Goblin

I believe I've mentioned WotC's hate of goblinoids before. Guess what? It still applies here.

Goblins have ability adjustments even worse than the half-orc's, are small (further restricting class options), and have barely any racial support (I counted one feat and one PrC). Their racial traits consist of the aforementioned ability adjustments, darkvision, and a +4 bonus to two middling skills.

That said, I don't really have any options but +0 LA. Goblins are bad, but not bad enough to warrant a -0.

[Daedroth]

Next come the golems, with huge downsides (The berserk ability of lower HD ones is the worst offender) and upsides.

I think they would be interesting and will generate some debate

[Troacctid]

Berserk has to be worth a ⚠.

[Flickerdart]

Berserk has to be worth a ⚠.

Berserk just seems like it's describing the actions of a typical PC.

Also, it would appear that by RAW, a clay golem's % to go crazy never resets. After 100 rounds of combat in their lifetime, they are guaranteed to go bonkers.

[Daedroth]

Berserk has to be worth a ⚠.

Yeah, but on the other direction, advicing players to only play them with a gentle DM XDDDDDD

[Caelestion]

As I recall, the blue (psychic goblin) was even saddled with a +1 LA, because level adjustments were also imposed to highlight how rare a creature was.

[danielxcutter]

As I recall, the blue (psychic goblin) was even saddled with a +1 LA, because level adjustments were also imposed to highlight how rare a creature was.

Perhaps they were so rare because their LA gimped their chances of survival that much.

[javcs]

As I recall, the blue (psychic goblin) was even saddled with a +1 LA, because level adjustments were also imposed to highlight how rare a creature was.

...
You're joking, right?

Actually ... if you're not joking and that's true, that might explain a lot about WotC's habit of assigning excess LA, although I admit, I thought that was pretty well explained by WotC's dubious grasp of game balance and the actual value of various abilities and capabilities.