Erfworld 63, Page 57

[slayerx]

One thing i can't help but think is that one thing that is going to happen

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is that one of those 3 dwagons are going to attack vinnie... but instead of dealing any real damage their instead going to destory the hat... no hat means no communication... so that means, if there is more to Parson's plan, as in some bad news for ansom upon reaching the base hex, or even he finds himself unable to get through those three dwagons, Ansom will have no way to tell the other warlords since he is out of movement...

Jillian and the archons can still come in to bail him out, but if Asnom can't tell them is something is wrong then they won't know to move in... Or even worse, Parson may expect the other warlords to act too rashly when they don't recieve any communication from their leader... many may attempt to charge to the base hex, only to be getting slaughtered by the surounding dwagons... perhaps even leaving little guard for the remainder of the seige engines...

no matter what, Ansom's turn will end with him wishing he could have ordered some more moves, and having his forces at the mercy of the remainder of Parson's attack... and all because his communcations and intel suck compared to Gobwinknob's

[J.Gellert]

Does anyone else get this idea from Ansom's ride?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

please note that we see at least two stacks lined up and ready to attack...the first stack was in brown which shot bows and got creamed...the second stack that was right behind them and watched the whole thing (in green) promptly jumped into the fray next...and then we see the field littered with bodies...

this is simply the plan...send wave after wave to kill the dwagons blocking the path, then take all forces with enough move to reach the hex and assault the wounded dwagons that 'should' be in the center...that is their plan.

As a side note, while It is clear that Ansom values his warlords and can even have 'personal' relationships (he supposidly loves Jillian for whatever that is worth and consideres Vinnie a friend enough that he apologizes for getting his bats killed)...we don't know that he actually values the lives of his units. While they matter in terms of combat and game mechanics...what other value would they be if they just pop...they follow the orders of warlords without question...they are essentially...tools. He might not be callus...but he might not care for his men any more than a wargamer 'cares' if he has enough troops left after a combat to accomplish his gols and be well defended against counterattack. I think he 'cares' about warlords and casters because they have a semblance of free will...it is possible that the 'difference' of making a unit a warlord or a caster makes them 'more'.

We did see at least one cloth golem tending to a wounded cloth golem after the attack on the spidew troops...not sure if it was supposed to be compassion or just something they do to try and save a unit for the next fight.

We might find out that the difference between Stanly and Ansom in their attitude towards basic troops is not much different. Hmm...I wonder if the 'real' difference between a simple 'unit' and a 'warlord' or other special unit is something as simple as a name.

[NegroSuave]

One thing i can't help but think is that one thing that is going to happen

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is that one of those 3 dwagons are going to attack vinnie... but instead of dealing any real damage their instead going to destory the hat... no hat means no communication... so that means, if there is more to Parson's plan, as in some bad news for ansom upon reaching the base hex, or even he finds himself unable to get through those three dwagons, Ansom will have no way to tell the other warlords since he is out of movement...

Jillian and the archons can still come in to bail him out, but if Asnom can't tell them is something is wrong then they won't know to move in... Or even worse, Parson may expect the other warlords to act too rashly when they don't recieve any communication from their leader... many may attempt to charge to the base hex, only to be getting slaughtered by the surounding dwagons... perhaps even leaving little guard for the remainder of the seige engines...

no matter what, Ansom's turn will end with him wishing he could have ordered some more moves, and having his forces at the mercy of the remainder of Parson's attack... and all because his communcations and intel suck compared to Gobwinknob's

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Or they won't destory the hat just retrive it and act as if giving orders to the flying column. (working on third shift gives me way too many oppurtuniteis to contemplate these things.) They could misdirect the flight of the air cover forcing even more catastrophic loses for Ansom.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I think the hat Vinnie is wearing is the one Ansom had...doesn't that one just work one way? It is possible it is send and recieve, but we can't be sure...it could be just send like Wanda's, or it could just recieve.

[Scientivore]

One thing i can't help but think is that one thing that is going to happen

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is that one of those 3 dwagons are going to attack vinnie... but instead of dealing any real damage their instead going to destory the hat... no hat means no communication... so that means, if there is more to Parson's plan, as in some bad news for ansom upon reaching the base hex, or even he finds himself unable to get through those three dwagons, Ansom will have no way to tell the other warlords since he is out of movement...

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We've only seen Vinny's hat used to receive messages from Jillian. Ansom was going to have to send a thinkagram through Charlie to give her orders anyway.

[DCR]

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Or they won't destory the hat just retrive it and act as if giving orders to the flying column. (working on third shift gives me way too many oppurtuniteis to contemplate these things.) They could misdirect the flight of the air cover forcing even more catastrophic loses for Ansom.

Eh, they use codes anyway... see page 41.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The "RUNNN NUNUNUHHH NUH-NUH RUN RUN" sound effect is the sound of a
2-stroke motorcycle engine, and not the more common 4-stroke.

Stadium racers, dirt track and moto-cross riders use 2-stroke engines for the faster acceleration and lighter weight.

Yeah, my summers were never misspent!

[ralphmerridew]

Considering that Ansom outnumbers Gobwin Knob ~25:1, losing 75 elves to take out 3 dwagons would be a wash. Adding in that dwagons are individually more valuable than elves, I'd guess that losing 500 elves to take out 3 dwagons would be fair exchange on its own, or that losing around 3500 elves taking out those 3 plus the 19 wounded would be fair.

[Caledonian]

Could it be possible that Parson's 3-dwagon hex actually has all the remaining dwagons?

Doubtful. Ansom can't see what's in a hex from a distance, but it makes sense that engaging with a hex reveals what's in it. Unless there's very powerful magic being used - which seems unlikely, given that the mages of Gobwin Knob were otherwise occupied - that hex is precisely what it appears to be: three dwagons, one purple, one pink, one yellow.

[katana2665]

Death by bubble-gum...I love that. I can't really understand why Ansom would even bother using archers in a heavy wooded area. I mean that's Wargamming 101. It would seem that he's been around long enough to know that. Presumably , I would agree that the Dwagons have attached bonuses that Ansom didn't pick up on. Personally I think that the Woodsie's would have faired better if they had brought a couple of miniguns....I also think that what we are looking at is the beginning of a known tactic... Present a seemingly easy target (Anvil) and then
and then drive a Arkenhammer to squash your opposition.

[Tarien]

Stacking the three warlords with those three dwagons would be critical error on Parson's part and i seriously doubt any strategist worth his salt would screw up like that. Either the woodsy elves, or Ansom, or even Zamussels, some unit would croak all the dwagon's along with the three warlords. That would be critical loss for Parson and it would quite likely lose him the battle. Dwagons would be no longer useful for the surgical strikes and would have to be pulled back.

In my opinion, Ansom is no novice to fighting dwagons. He knows he'll have to take serious losses before the the three get defeated, and he's willing to pay it. They'll croak them and punch through to center. What awaits them there is the the question, though.

[BFJT]

Was that a hole in his chest?

Ya, the yellow dwagon got him in the chest with his tail in pannel 7

is that poop on top of one of the elves?

I saw that too and questioned it...and then remembered what I was reading so I will agree it is poop. Hahaha talk about insult to injury...or relaxed would that dwagon have to be during the battle....

For a second i though those arrows were making a miss sound which gave me quite a laugh.

I think they are. They are from the elves bows and missing them in pannel 6

Also, similar to a strategy video game, the units don't seem to mind that you're sending them to their deaths

Good call, no morale check




P.S. Vinnie doesn't seem to "pull off" that hat in pannel 2

[normalphil]

please note that we see at least two stacks lined up and ready to attack...the first stack was in brown which shot bows and got creamed...the second stack that was right behind them and watched the whole thing (in green) promptly jumped into the fray next...and then we see the field littered with bodies...

this is simply the plan...send wave after wave to kill the dwagons blocking the path, then take all forces with enough move to reach the hex and assault the wounded dwagons that 'should' be in the center...that is their plan.

As a side note, while It is clear that Ansom values his warlords and can even have 'personal' relationships (he supposidly loves Jillian for whatever that is worth and consideres Vinnie a friend enough that he apologizes for getting his bats killed)...we don't know that he actually values the lives of his units. While they matter in terms of combat and game mechanics...what other value would they be if they just pop...they follow the orders of warlords without question...they are essentially...tools. He might not be callus...but he might not care for his men any more than a wargamer 'cares' if he has enough troops left after a combat to accomplish his gols and be well defended against counterattack. I think he 'cares' about warlords and casters because they have a semblance of free will...it is possible that the 'difference' of making a unit a warlord or a caster makes them 'more'.

We did see at least one cloth golem tending to a wounded cloth golem after the attack on the spidew troops...not sure if it was supposed to be compassion or just something they do to try and save a unit for the next fight.

We might find out that the difference between Stanly and Ansom in their attitude towards basic troops is not much different. Hmm...I wonder if the 'real' difference between a simple 'unit' and a 'warlord' or other special unit is something as simple as a name.

Or Ansom is a proffessional soldier that has to break through a heavily defended position with light infantry, or a lot more units die when Stanle's next turn comes around.

"A good general must love his army, A great general must be able to order the death of the thing he loves."

There simply isn't a realistic way to crack that hex beyond sending wave after wave of men into it until those Dwagons have been worn down enough to kill. No perfect solutions, no shortcuts, no jumping up in midair, turning a sommersault and landing on both flanks at once. Ansom is a warlord. This is what he has to do.

[BeefontheBone]

Something which made me actually post (rather than lurking so I could disable sig displays...) - the penultimate row of panels with the hole in the chest is definitely a Shaun of the Dead reference. Can't believe nobody's mentioned that yet; genius movie.

[Annon]

Here's a spoiler question. I don't have enough time to reade this enitre thread, so I'm sorry if it is a duplicate...

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What if Parson put his weakest dwagons in the ring, then left all the full healed units in the center and in the rearguard? He knows Ansom's intel is crap, and the enemy is extremely predicable. He's using a formation that is extremely easy to read and analyse the 'weak point.' By putting the weak dragons in the last place the enemy expects--right into danger--he is protecting them while.

Ansom could be bringing a very large force into a very large bloodbath. 20+ fully healed and operational dwagons would tear through whatever counterstike the warlord has planned.

[Gez]

Just thought of another thing... One assumption people are making is that 8 units is the maximum to a stack. That may not true- the stack bonus maxes out at 8. So it might be possible to have more than 8 units in a stack (with only 8 receiving a bonus). And with 1 warlord, every unit in a huge stack can be directed to fight or not, regardless of whether they have a bonus or not.

ALL units in the stack receive the stack bonus. If you have 200 units in the stack, each of the 200 units get a +8 bonus. But it may be more interesting to have 25 stacks of 8 units, each with a +8 bonus anyway, so that you can do move the troops on several different fronts.

And the warlord can direct units on his own turn. Presumably, there's no tactical advantage to having a warlord in a defending stack. (There's still, of course, the numerical advantage of adding the warlord's bonus.)

[Eldritch_Ent]

I don't think the run has anything to do with the gumps- It's basically the erfworld quivalent of a motorcycle "Vrooom nununuhnuh" noise, but with run instead of Vroom.

Also, Yeah, this may be a fool's errand, but keep in mind it seems to be Ansom's only choice. I'd do the same thing if I was in his position- He's not expecting a plan since he still thinks Stanley's forces are lead by, well, Stanley.

Also, who's to say there's NOT gravity in Erfworld? Even if it's not gravity as we see it, there's still "something that makes people and things fall down".

And there might very well be some type of fatige penalties applied to defenders for repeated attacks on the same unit in a turn, in which case it would be smartest to send in the weak units first.

I play a lot of war games and sometimes something like this is neccesary. To use Advance Wars as a comparison, there's suddenly three Megatank running loose in your base... You have only Small and Medium tanks. You can't just send your Medtanks in- They'll get slaughtered by the main cannons. You have to wear down the Megatanks with the smaller tanks first (even though you'll lose every unit, most likely) to eliminate their ammo supplies and to reduce their HP before you bring in your own bigger tanks...

[innovan]

Not sure why the elves say "Hyaaaah" at the end. Are they running away in defeat, or are they just squatting in the hex until next turn, having shot their sole attack and all their movement?

Finally, dwagons with some bite. Now these are the guys (girls?) you'd actually want protecting your treasure hoarde. Not the wussy cream-puff push-overs of p12 that got Worfed by Jillian in her character establishment.

[teratorn]

Not sure why the elves say "Hyaaaah" at the end.

Battle cry. They're attacking.

Vinny is taking his bats with him, that means Ansom will know what's inside the center hex before sending his stacks there. We'll have another of those funny faces from Vinny and maybe more rage from Ansom.

[JoeKano]

Didnt know what to make of this strip at first but bn a solid reader now for 763 strips an counting....

I think Clever Klogs is going to bloody Ansoms nose here nicely..

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Here's a spoiler question. I don't have enough time to reade this enitre thread, so I'm sorry if it is a duplicate...

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What if Parson put his weakest dwagons in the ring, then left all the full healed units in the center and in the rearguard? He knows Ansom's intel is crap, and the enemy is extremely predicable. He's using a formation that is extremely easy to read and analyse the 'weak point.' By putting the weak dragons in the last place the enemy expects--right into danger--he is protecting them while.

Ansom could be bringing a very large force into a very large bloodbath. 20+ fully healed and operational dwagons would tear through whatever counterstike the warlord has planned.

In short yes.

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it is indeed a theory that has been presented by some...very reminiscent of Palpatine...in fact, if he quotes the Emperor as they figure it out, I am gonna laugh so damn hard...

if the bats, or even the warlords themselves, cannot see current unit hitpoints, or didn't get a good enough visual to notice wounded dwagons in the outer hexes...it is quite possible that all the fresh dwagons are in the middle. If you do the math, you will find that the numbers work out suspiciously well to have a single unwounded dwagon in the outer ring hexes and 3 unwounded in the rear hex to redistribute numbers and have 27 in the outer ring with 19 in the inner ring...the unwounded dwagons that pop out of hiding to eat a bat 'show' that the dwagons around the edges are fresh...which only means that the wounded stacks are in the center...a potentially fatal error if it is not the case.

I just wonder if Ansom and/or Vinnie will meet their demise in the trap. Likely they will try to escape when they find out how dangerous it really is, or that there is some other type of trap...but what...

[Scientivore]

Here's a spoiler question. I don't have enough time to reade this enitre thread, so I'm sorry if it is a duplicate...

Spoiler

Show

What if Parson put his weakest dwagons in the ring, then left all the full healed units in the center and in the rearguard? He knows Ansom's intel is crap, and the enemy is extremely predicable. He's using a formation that is extremely easy to read and analyse the 'weak point.' By putting the weak dragons in the last place the enemy expects--right into danger--he is protecting them while.

Ansom could be bringing a very large force into a very large bloodbath. 20+ fully healed and operational dwagons would tear through whatever counterstike the warlord has planned.

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Yes, that idea has been batted around since the page before. I even used the same "fully operational" RotJ reference. Many others made the "It's a trap!" reference. I think that we were set up for that meme by the Ewok song a few pages ago.

So, we're pretty sure that Parson laid a trap. Is it a Death Star (what I'd been calling a Purloined Letter) or a Shell Game? I like the psychological element to Death Star. Using the enemy's assumptions to bring him to your strength, underpowered and unprepared for your response, is...nasty. And fun. However, setting aside all of the other pros and cons, there's one very strong argument against it: the real bait is the warlords. If Ansom & Co. can selectively re-croak the warlords first then Parson wouldn't be able to repeat his tactic to finish off the rest of the siege units. If the rest of the Alliance kept on truckin' then Stanley wouldn't get to enjoy the Arkenpliers for very long before GK would fall.

The big advantage to Shell Game is that the only way to beat it is to not play. Ansom can't afford to do nothing, so Parson wins either way.

Not sure why the elves say "Hyaaaah" at the end. Are they running away in defeat, or are they just squatting in the hex until next turn, having shot their sole attack and all their movement?

The front rank has grey shirts and bows, the back rank has green shirts. The front rank runs forward, shoots its bows and gets pwned. The back rank yells and then we skip past their doomed assault to its gruesome aftermath.

[benthehater]

Some thinkin's:

I don't think Parson can use his mathamancy item until his own turn again.

I think the first stack wasn't expected to do that well, but the alliance was hoping for better results than what they got. A lost stack with no enemy damage, let alone no enemy casualties might be reason for Vinnie and Ansom to use Jillian w/ Gwiffons and Charlie's Thinkamarketers.

"You can send a single Thinkagram for a one time cost of X Schmuckers, or you could sign up for a Thinkagrammary Plan for a one time fee of UmpteenthX Schmuckers for unlimited Thinkagrams for the entirity of the turn, or you could also take up the option for the Thinkagrammaton Plan, which would allow unlimited Thinkagrams for the entire battle for Gobwin Knob at a mere upkeep cost of X Squared Schmuckers per turn."

I wonder if those blue salesgirls will also attempt to upsell their combat actions, "We could engage the enemy in melee, or the three of us could mount a Tri-Archon Turret Gun on this hex which would allow us to damage every unit in the adjacent hex of your choice for only half your schuckers."

Anyway, carry on.

[OnDroid]

When you count the bodies on the last panel it's definitely more than 8. The question is : Are those all causalities needed to slay those 3 dwagons? Or has Ansom just run of Wood elves in the attack group?

And about "morale checks" : When you are forced to attack enemy (whit no warlord around) and units just pop out of nowhere with their whole puprose to be used in war and do what you are ordered (so no free will at all) ... they probably know that thier lives will be short and violent. So the warlords + casters (that look like they HAVE will of their own) don't think about units as individual soldier. Maybe looking cold and cruel, but that's "part of the universes rules", isn't it?

[normalphil]

When you count the bodies on the last panel it's definitely more than 8. The question is : Are those all causalities needed to slay those 3 dwagons? Or has Ansom just run of Wood elves in the attack group?

And about "morale checks" : When you are forced to attack enemy (whit no warlord around) and units just pop out of nowhere with their whole puprose to be used in war and do what you are ordered (so no free will at all) ... they probably know that thier lives will be short and violent. So the warlords + casters (that look like they HAVE will of their own) don't think about units as individual soldier. Maybe looking cold and cruel, but that's "part of the universes rules", isn't it?

You know, this hasn't been out of the ordinary. Short of the peasant levy, morale for RL medieval soldiers would be unbelievable by the standards the board is applying for 'normal'. If you can maintain a pike-wall against a cavalry charge, you can attack dwagons.

[JazzManJim]

the sound by ansom is nerrrrrr not run uhuhuhuhu
I think nerrr is from the trees creaking or otherwise performing treeish noises including but not necessarily Entish after all there would need to be other languages for people to even bother calling Common something other than Language.

Think of "nerrrrrr" as a motorbike throttling down to idle. Once you get the sound in your head, it makes sense.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Having seen the enemy facing the dragons wave after wave, the follow up for Parson is seeming more obvious to me.

Only a couple of units can attack flying units in a forest. These are other fliers and forest capable units. Now Parson's resources allow him to know exactly where all of Ansom's units are. Neither Parson nor Ansom can know where their enemy units will be after their following turn in advance. However, Parson again has an advantage as Ansom is slowly moving forward to Gobwin Knob.

Because Ansom cannot predict nor locate Parson's units he has two options. He can slow his march and waist time (and fliers) searching for them or he can ignore them. But as this turn showed us, Ansom is losing both flying units, forest capable units, and siege units during Parson's turn.

If Parson can whittle down the units that can kill Dragons in a forest while taking minimum damage and destroy the rest of Ansom's Siege than it is just a matter of time before the battle is won. Gobwin Knob can produce dragons and the dragons can sit in Forest hexes after their completed turns.

[JazzManJim]

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So, we're pretty sure that Parson laid a trap. Is it a Death Star (what I'd been calling a Purloined Letter) or a Shell Game? I like the psychological element to Death Star. Using the enemy's assumptions to bring him to your strength, underpowered and unprepared for your response, is...nasty. And fun. However, setting aside all of the other pros and cons, there's one very strong argument against it: the real bait is the warlords. If Ansom & Co. can selectively re-croak the warlords first then Parson wouldn't be able to repeat his tactic to finish off the rest of the siege units. If the rest of the Alliance kept on truckin' then Stanley wouldn't get to enjoy the Arkenpliers for very long before GK would fall.

The big advantage to Shell Game is that the only way to beat it is to not play. Ansom can't afford to do nothing, so Parson wins either way.

Yes, but there's an element that gives me pause.

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We don't know for sure if Parson realizes the effect the Arkenpliers have on the uncroaked. I'm not so sure he would dangle them as bait if he knew that basically one touch from Ansom would turn them to re-croak them. I'm sure he's confident they could survive even a strong one-turn push from Ansom. With the "instadust" effect of the Arkenpliers, that's not a sure bet at all.

[kreszantas]

well the heavies that are with Ansom and Vinny could very well be low on move so they have to use the weaken with wimps then strike hard with a stronger force, however Vinny does have some bats with him in the "Evel riding" Ansom panel so with only 2 trees shown and probably 7 bats he does have enough to avoid this trap with the sound reasoning that Vinny uses.

Note: Vinny aint too happy about this plan therefore he is going to lose his 7 remain bats in a scouting mission to find the rest, they are not going to fight the rest of the deathstar as one put it to just to their own tactical demise.