Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)

[The honest illusionist]

Just got Start of Darkness. I saw it while looking through some booths at the FANexpo.

Love the background on the villains and their more developed motives.

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I hope we get to see more of 'The Dark One' in the comic.

[Dark Wolf]

I just noticed the Gleaner article under gaming. I guess they are friends then. I'm just not capable of understanding that sort of humour it seems. I am still interested in the eye colour thing though.

[Gijs]

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I have a new favorite word, evilgasm

[Lyinginbedmon]

#will never get it because of shipping issues#

[Max_Sinister]

@Gijs: Why new? It was first mentioned in that one online OOTS strip.

[ref]

@inbedmon: Have you tried to have someone else in this boards buy one and send it to you?

[Lyinginbedmon]

@inbedmon: Have you tried to have someone else in this boards buy one and send it to you?

That doesn't cut the shipping costs
That, and the exchange rate between America-England favours me, so anyone buying it for me and then mailing it over would be severely hoodwinked

[Timespike]

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In light of the revelations about the gate, Tsukiko just became REALLY important. Ether Xykon OR Redcloak could use her to bypass the need for the other one. THAT'S going to make things interesting.

[lavidor10]

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Tsukiko would side with Xykon, no question, but Xykon can't replace Redcloak as he's the goblin with the Ritual Skillz. Unless Xykon just kills him and puts the cloak on Tsukiko...

[Nightgaunt]

SPOILER from today's comic.

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Has this been mentioned else where? I have not seen it.

Did anyone notice the Ninja is Green! Am I the only one who suspects a certain someones missing Daughter as the Ninja?

[SteveMB]

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Tsukiko would side with Xykon, no question, but Xykon can't replace Redcloak as he's the goblin with the Ritual Skillz. Unless Xykon just kills him and puts the cloak on Tsukiko...

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He'd be kinda boned (rimshot) if the cloak doesn't work for humans, though....

[Porthos]

SPOILER from today's comic.

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Has this been mentioned else where? I have not seen it.

Did anyone notice the Ninja is Green! Am I the only one who suspects a certain someones missing Daughter as the Ninja?

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The color scheme doesn't match a Goblins, though. However it does match a Half-Orc/Orc. So the Ninja Leader is probably some sort of Orc decendant.

[boiled bones]

Bloody awesome book.

Didn't get the dual colored eye joke concerning Keith Baker. What's up w/ that?

[Fitzclowningham]

I just noticed - on page 8, 9th panel, when Xykon "names" himself, there's a very Xykon-the-lich-looking skull poster behind him. That Burlew, he's a subtle one.

[SPoD]

It just so happens I was about to ask about the Keith Baker stuff. I don't follow Eberron, in fact I don't like it at all (Dwarfs with no beard wearing dinner jackets, shudder. Floating ships. Magical trains ). I know Rich was beaten in the world making contest but is the referencing pro or anti? I noticed someone's quote with Keith Baker criticising Rich's art, and Porthos just said the inclusion was a friendly shoutout. Are they friends or rivals? and what's with the eye colour thing. Does he wear contacts?

Keith has two different color eyes; I met him at a convention once. It's kind of weird. I don't know if it's natural, or he's just wearing contacts. I didn't ask.

And yes, he and Rich are friends. Keith apparently accepted Rich's ENnie for him at GenCon. However, they have an ongoing fake rivalry where they claim to be out to kill one another.

[Caractacus]

Did anyone else notice that:

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the inside cover repeated image of Redcloak is the moment where he animates his murdered brother's corpse? In other words, the nadir of his life and his moment of personal humiliation.

It's a 'nice' (you know what I mean) image to stand for the whole book...

[Nightgaunt]

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The color scheme doesn't match a Goblins, though. However it does match a Half-Orc/Orc. So the Ninja Leader is probably some sort of Orc decendant.

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Ya know that did occur to me, but I thought Maybe his wife was of a slightly different shade of green? But I guess their is really no evidence for that..
ah well the straws are out of reach.

[factotum]

Two things, Caractacus:

1) No, I didn't notice that, mainly because the pose he has on the covers looks absolutely nothing like the pose at the moment you're talking about.

2) How about enclosing that in spoiler tags, since it's a MASSIVE FREAKIN' SPOILER?

[Oxymoron]

WOW! The SOD book was awsome. It totally shamed Origin of the PCs. Finally I can read this thread without spoiling the book for myself.

About Redcloak:

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I don`t hate him for killing his brother. Redcloak didn´t think Right-eye was powerful enough to destroy Xykon, and he was right. If Redcloak had not betrayed his brother, Xykon would probably have killed every last goblin and Redcloak. Redcloak did it for his people. In Redcloak`s mind, the plan is bigger than a single goblins life. Remember that the Dark One created the Crimson Mantle so that one goblin cleric would carry out the plan for the betterment of goblinkind. Of course, allying with Xykon has been one disaster after the other for his fellow goblins. Redcloak continues on his mad quest however, because if he stops, besides Xykon killing him, all he has done WILL BE for nothing. He has nothing to loose anymore.

I don´t support the theory that the Crimson Mantle controls him. He can clearly make his own descisions. The Crimson Mantle gave him terrible insight into the Elder Gods wrongdoings against his people and he reacts to that insight. It is his god`s will that the plan continues and he tries to fullfill that plan (with disasterious results.) I´m not trying to excuse Redcloak acts, he is a villain after all, but if he succeds, goblinkind wins and he finally gets his revenge on Xykon. Xykon: " Where did my gate dissappear to, and why is this giant purple goblin stepping on my head?"

[shadowpriest]

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Now that you mention it, that makes a lot of sense. Remember V's prediction from the Oracle? Maybe this is how he finally achieves ultimate arcane power?

or else, how -she- finally achieves ultimate arcane power.

[Lissou]

WOW! The SOD book was awsome. It totally shamed Origin of the PCs. Finally I can read this thread without spoiling the book for myself.

About Redcloak:

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I don`t hate him for killing his brother. Redcloak didn´t think Right-eye was powerful enough to destroy Xykon, and he was right. If Redcloak had not betrayed his brother, Xykon would probably have killed every last goblin and Redcloak. Redcloak did it for his people. In Redcloak`s mind, the plan is bigger than a single goblins life. Remember that the Dark One created the Crimson Mantle so that one goblin cleric would carry out the plan for the betterment of goblinkind. Of course, allying with Xykon has been one disaster after the other for his fellow goblins. Redcloak continues on his mad quest however, because if he stops, besides Xykon killing him, all he has done WILL BE for nothing. He has nothing to loose anymore.

I don´t support the theory that the Crimson Mantle controls him. He can clearly make his own descisions. The Crimson Mantle gave him terrible insight into the Elder Gods wrongdoings against his people and he reacts to that insight. It is his god`s will that the plan continues and he tries to fullfill that plan (with disasterious results.) I´m not trying to excuse Redcloak acts, he is a villain after all, but if he succeds, goblinkind wins and he finally gets his revenge on Xykon. Xykon: " Where did my gate dissappear to, and why is this giant purple goblin stepping on my head?"

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I don't hate him either. And I'm sure he's really doing it for goblinkind. if you remember, he knows that if the plan fails and he can't control the gate, he's going not only to die, but to lose his soul. He still said it would be a positive outcome (although not the best) as the Gods would crate a new world and The Dark One would be included from the start, this time.
He's still a villain. Not really caring about the world being destroyed and every single living being losing their soul isn't a very good thing. the fact that he does care about being one of them, though, proves that he's brave, and not selfish.

[Caractacus]

Two things, Caractacus:

1) No, I didn't notice that, mainly because the pose he has on the covers looks absolutely nothing like the pose at the moment you're talking about.

2) How about enclosing that in spoiler tags, since it's a MASSIVE FREAKIN' SPOILER?

Whooops!

Sorted and retracted - in that order...

[Pvednes]

I just got and read it, and it was fantastic.

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I loved the Stargate reference. That was a thing of beauty.

I'm a whole lot more impressed with Xykon's evil now...and have lost pretty much all respect for Redcloak.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The Red Voiced Big Bad Evil Guy

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And XykLon the fat demodand or whatever that thing was. I wonder if they are one and the same?

I know the "Evil Overlords" Sabine reported to were tall and thin, but the robes could be magical. Roomier on the inside, slimming on the outside. Still, it will be several months, if not a year or two, before Rich gets to revealing Red Voice.

[hanzo66]

I rather liked the touch at the beginning in...

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Xykon's room with the skull poster, which was particularly prominent in when he names himself Xykon and kills his parents. Punk Rockerish kid to Overlord, nice evolution of villainy. Upon finishing the book I believe Xykon is even more my favorite character as a villain who is not just funny but genuinely cruel and destructive in his own right.

Also I liked the ending...

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It was indeed tragic for Redcloak, who learns the consequences of his fanaticism to the Plan. Now in too far to back out, he's stuck with no option save for aiding Xykon in his mad bid for power in hopes that it will eventually work out and the Plan will succeed. Perhaps rather than the Snarl, The Dark One would likely be the Campaign-ending boss of the series who will eventually confront the Order directly, who will likely remind him of the same "Order" that slaughters his High Priests.

[Marstov]

I have a question that perhaps someone who understands D&D could answer:

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Why didn't Redcloak raise Righteye's wife and children from the dead? We know he can cast the spell, as he contemplates using it on Righteye. Is there a good reason for this neglect on his part? Are the children too weak to survive the experience, or is there some other explanation? I am assuming there must be one, since the rest of the book is so tightly plotted...

[Winged One]

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Well, Xykon might not have allowed him access to the 5000 gp in diamonds that each casting of raise dead requires, or he might simply not have been able to find enough. Also, 1st level characters lose a point of Constitution if they're raised, and considering what a monumental **** Xykon is, the possibility of him killing them until they run out of CON may have also influenced Redcloak's decision.

My first thought was that he wasn't of high enough level at that point, but then I recalled that it had been mentioned earlier in the book that he was able to cast flame strike, a spell of equal level to that of raise dead.

[David Argall]

I have a question that perhaps someone who understands D&D could answer:

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Why didn't Redcloak raise Righteye's wife and children from the dead? We know he can cast the spell, as he contemplates using it on Righteye. Is there a good reason for this neglect on his part? Are the children too weak to survive the experience, or is there some other explanation? I am assuming there must be one, since the rest of the book is so tightly plotted...

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Besides the technical details, we need to keep in mind that the goblins are evil, something easy to forget in SOD. And restoring life to a helpless child is rather not near the top on your list of evil deeds.
Indeed, the more we look at Raise Dead, or healing in general, the more reason we find for restricting its use by evil types. Its good intent is just too obvious, and too disgusting for our evils. It is something to be done out of necessity, not because it can be.
Right-eye and even more so Redcloak would want to use the spell power in seeking revenge rather than restoration.

[Doug Lampert]

I have a question that perhaps someone who understands D&D could answer:

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Why didn't Redcloak raise Righteye's wife and children from the dead? We know he can cast the spell, as he contemplates using it on Righteye. Is there a good reason for this neglect on his part? Are the children too weak to survive the experience, or is there some other explanation? I am assuming there must be one, since the rest of the book is so tightly plotted...

Raise Dead requires a mostly intact body (not guaranteed), that the body have not been killed by certain spells (some of which Xykon can cast), that the character has not been raised as an undead (which Xykon can do), costs 5,000 GP (for earnings power 1 GP is probably about $200, so that's roughly equivelant to a million dollars), only works within a few days of the death, requires that the target WANTS to come back, and permanently drains either 1 character level or 2 points of Con if the character was level 1, so they come back noticably weaker than they were previously.

5,000 GP is a substantial fraction of the total wealth of an entire Goblin Tribe with hundreds of adult warriors, some of them with noticable level.

There are lots of reasons to not raise someone. Note that Durkon is just as capable of Raising or Resurecting someone as Redcloak, and that if he ever gets arround to casting the spell on Roy it will probably be the first successful Raise Dead or Ressurect that we've seen. And the costs are so high that this is perfectly reasonable.

Most of the above might have stopped Redcloak. We don't know what killed them or what condition the bodies were in or if they were raised or if Redcloak even HAD 5,000 GP in diamonds available at the time.

Resurection is a higher level spell, Redcloak in the comic has cast spells of the appropriate level so he can probably manage it now, could he then? And in any case the cost is twice as high. It does need the body but doesn't care about condition (the dust left by a disintigrate is enough), it will work on creatures that had been raised as undead as long as you first destroy the undead creature, and works over a longer period of time.

True Resurection is even better (don't need the body to exist at all, don't lose a level or any Con), but we have no indication that Redcloak can cast it, and the 25,000 GP cost is even worse.

[Marstov]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my Raise Dead question...

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I suspected that the process might be too much of a strain for children to survive, and from what people have said about the effects I suspect that even if you wanted to do so, you couldn't successfully raise a child more than once or twice. For all we know, the scene of Righteye's family dying wasn't the first time they were killed, and this event marked when they were beyond saving.

I don't agree that goblins wouldn't use Raise Dead because they're "evil". If nothing else, SoD shows us the enormous difference between different flavors of antagonists. Initially, I wouldn't have considered the Brothers Goblin evil just for fighting the humans. Spin it around the other way: if two humans got up an army to attack a goblin fortress after goblins destroyed their village, would you call them evil? Clearly the goblins as portrayed here love each other as much as other people do; I can't imagine they wouldn't use healing spells on each other.

Redcloak works his way to an evil alignment pretty quickly, I think, based on his callous indifference to the suffering of everyone around him, especially the other goblins that look to him for guidance. Righteye, on the other hand, recognizes that revenge is not worth giving up his own life and eventually becomes what I'd consider a force for good, or at least neutrality.

Xykon, on the other hand...

SoD is my favorite OOS book to date. I can't wait to see where Mr. Burlew takes the story next.