Class and Level Geekery II

[jindra34]

If it takes a DC 24 Strength check to bend iron bars, and a damaged item has his break DC reduced by 2 (to 22 in this case), can we not conclude that Miko has at least a Strength of 14? Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to break the bar even with a natural 20.

Of course, she might have just hit until she'd gone through the bar's hit point but, with a haredness of 10, that hardly seems a logical choice. Then again, we're talking about Miko here.

Thog was breaking Miko was sundering

[Borris]

As to Borris' analysis of Redcloak's (sort of) turning, from 413, the newbie paladins are all stationed behind the walls, with "the rest" guarding the throne room. Depending on Hinjo's standard for "newbie", that implies that all of the Sapphire Martyrs are at least 2nd level base, maybe more. From comments about the elite soldiers that Vaarsuvius buffed, and the prisoners recruited to fight, I would assume that a "newbie" was anyone under 5th level, and of course some of the Martyrs will be higher yet.

Good point there. It's a good thing I occasionally go back to see if I didn't miss anything. Since all the newbie paladins are stationned outside, the ones inside must at least be 2nd-level (probably at least 4th or 5th, but let's err on the side of safety for now).

Each ghost-martyr counts as his level plus four for the purpose of turn/rebuke attempts. Since Redcloak can destroy as much as five at once, that means an equivalent of 30 hit dice of deathless. The maximum number of hit dice he can affect is still 2d6 + cleric level + Charisma modifier. With a 12 on his roll, he'd still have needed a total of 18 for Cleric level + Cha modifier. We already know he's at least a 15th-level Cleric, so either he's higher level than we thought or he has a Charisma score of at least 16. Both are probably higher. He destroyed 5 ghost-martyrs twice, and he can't plausibly have rolled a 12 while facing 5 2nd-level paladins twice in that one combat.


In any case, he makes Ghost-Martyrs go POOF! at least four times: twice in 459, once in 461, and once in 462. Barring the Extra Turning feat (which I doubt he has), we know he has a Cha score of at least 12.

[Wrecan]

she wouldn't have been able to break the bar even with a natural 20.

Of course, she might have just hit until she'd gone through the bar's hit point but, with a haredness of 10, that hardly seems a logical choice. Then again, we're talking about Miko here.

Um... if she can't break the bar even with a natural 20, how is sunder attacks not the logical choice? It appears to be her only choice. And if, as we suspect, she has Power Attack, it's not illogical at all.

[baerdith]

I think Runolfr needs to update the main page. Thank Soon!!

[Wrecan]

I just noticed that before turning invisible, V mentioned being out of "potions and scrolls", so I've eliminated all potions and scrolls from V's item list.

[Tyrmatt]

Just felt I'd mention that Redcloak clearly has a greater than average Charisma score, due to him being the High Priest of the Dark One. You can't sway the masses into holy crusades and to battle without having a half decent charisma.

[Porthos]

Just felt I'd mention that Redcloak clearly has a greater than average Charisma score, due to him being the High Priest of the Dark One. You can't sway the masses into holy crusades and to battle without having a half decent charisma.

Also there is the high number of turn "undead"'s he belted out.

[Amon Star]

In comic 467, called the post powerful party member. Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.

What does everyone else think?

[Alfryd]

Barring the Extra Turning feat (which I doubt he has)...

Why not? It seems a logical choice for a cleric handling large numbers of semi-intelligent undead.

Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.

Couldn't say. Well-built wizards are generally rather powerful in any case.

[TroyXavier]

I think it's just a reference to wizards in general.

[Fighteer]

Yes, but please note that Intimidate checks may be prone to circumstance modifiers at the DMs discretion. In my book, ripping off the EoFaF's head and carting it around counts as one hell of a circumstance (It might additionally alter the Eye's effective size to Tiny, being only a skull now, which further adjusts the situation in Belkar's favor).

Pardon me for coming into this particular discussion a bit late, but since undead are immune to all mind-affecting effects (including fear), and intimidate doesn't work on creatures immune to fear, Belkar cannot have made a successful intimidate check against the EoFaF under RAW.

Of course, since Rich decided for the sake of humor to house-rule an EoFaF that can in fact get scared, he's effectively thrown the rulebook out of the window, so it's improper to make any assumptions about Belkar's skill ranks on the basis of this situation.

Back to Miko - the dead hobgoblin's head being used to kill the other one is clearly also dramatic license (and continues a running joke, as Rich likes to have falling/flying heads kill things). Unless she has vorpal feet, her kick would merely kill the cleric, not decapitate it. As an expression of game mechanics, the situation could indicate that Miko has the Cleave feat, but is more likely simply an alternative form of multiple attacks, since she gets a minimum of three from her BAB: one (with Power Attack) to kill the cleric, and the other two to take out the hobbos.

[Twilight Jack]

Pardon me for coming into this particular discussion a bit late, but since undead are immune to all mind-affecting effects (including fear), and intimidate doesn't work on creatures immune to fear, Belkar cannot have made a successful intimidate check against the EoFaF under RAW.

Of course, since Rich decided for the sake of humor to house-rule an EoFaF that can in fact get scared, he's effectively thrown the rulebook out of the window, so it's improper to make any assumptions about Belkar's skill ranks on the basis of this situation.

I disagree. What would be improper is to make any assumptions about another skeletal undead's susceptibility to fear. Belkar asked the EoFaF about whether or not he got scared. Belkar then knew that the normal immunity didn't apply. Then we get to the Intimidate checks about which I was theorizing. Deriving a possible investment of ranks in Intimidate from that exchange isn't out of line, since the EoFaF told us that he was not immune to fear and thus an exception to the rules as written.

Belkar's behavior and skill set in that comic aren't exceptions, the EoFaF is the exception.

We can still geek on Belkar's stats based upon what we learn from that comic.

[Fighteer]

I disagree. What would be improper is to make any assumptions about another skeletal undead's susceptibility to fear. Belkar asked the EoFaF about whether or not he got scared. Belkar then knew that the normal immunity didn't apply. Then we get to the Intimidate checks about which I was theorizing. Deriving a possible investment of ranks in Intimidate from that exchange isn't out of line, since the EoFaF told us that he was not immune to fear and thus an exception to the rules as written.

Belkar's behavior and skill set in that comic aren't exceptions, the EoFaF is the exception.

We can still geek on Belkar's stats based upon what we learn from that comic.

I'd say that we can pretty well bank on Belkar having Intimidate as a skill regardless of the evidence in the strip with the EoFaF - I'm just saying that you shouldn't use such an obviously non-canonical situation as a basis of proof.

[Twilight Jack]

I'd say that we can pretty well bank on Belkar having Intimidate as a skill regardless of the evidence in the strip with the EoFaF - I'm just saying that you shouldn't use such an obviously non-canonical situation as a basis of proof.

And I'm saying that the part of the situation that was non-canonical had nothing to do with Belkar, so his actions in the encounter can be taken into consideration without concern. Only the EoFaF's abilities are a divergence from the rules.

[Fighteer]

And I'm saying that the part of the situation that was non-canonical had nothing to do with Belkar, so his actions in the encounter can be taken into consideration without concern. Only the EoFaF's abilities are a divergence from the rules.

For all we know, it could have been house-ruled to automatically fail against any Intimidate check, trained or not.

[Twilight Jack]

For all we know, it could have been house-ruled to automatically fail against any Intimidate check, trained or not.

Booyah! I concede the point. Because of the divergence from the RAW, it is quite possible that Elan could have pulled it off just as easily, had he a mind to do so, and we'd be wrong to theorize Intimidate ranks for Elan from it.

Nope, I see where you're going with it. And you're right.

[Chronos]

In comic 467, called the post powerful party member. Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.

What does everyone else think?

Back at the up a level, down a level strip, Haley and Vaarsuvius each gained an odd-numbered level (since Haley's Sneak Attack improved, and Vaarsuvius gained a new spell level, both of which occur at odd levels). So if Vaarsuvius were higher level than Haley, then e would have to be at least two levels higher. Meanwhile, in the inn after Dorukan's Dungeon, Vaarsuvius again levels at the same time as (most of) the rest of the party (and before Belkar). Each subsequent level takes more experience at higher levels, so V levelling simultaneously with Haley twice in a row is good evidence that they're the same level, and V is certainly not two full levels ahead of Haley.

I think that "most powerful party member" must therefore either be a token of respect towards wizards in general, or a reflection of the fact that, of all the Order, Vaarsuvius is really the only one with an optimized build (I mean, really, a brainy fighter? A halfling ranger/barbarian?).

[PsyBlade]

Optimized? Everyone (except MAYBE Haley) isn't optimized. He's a blastomancer. Blastomancers are inferior to Conjurers. A Conjurer could've held that breach for a day. He didn't and is now hiding because of it.

[Morty]

Optimized? Everyone (except MAYBE Haley) isn't optimized. He's a blastomancer. Blastomancers are inferior to Conjurers. A Conjurer could've held that breach for a day. He didn't and is now hiding because of it.

He could've held that breach for a day as a conjurer*spit* and that's the exact reason why V isn't conjurer. Besides, V is a wizard. So he's automatically more optimized than everyone else.

[Amon Star]

I don't want my comment to start an argument over who's the most/least optimized character. And frankly, I'm the last person you want to talk to about optimization. Wise fighter with Strength as a Dump Stat, anyone?

Anywho, I thought would be the most Optimized Character. Everyone keeps going on about Codzilla, whatever that means, & I remember I while back there was a lot of criticism about 's poor spell choices.

[Post]

Poor spell choices? She took Disentegrate and Bigby's something hand for her 6th level spells, right?

[Kurald Galain]

Obviously, V takes every possible opportunity to repeatedly and in colorful language point out how magnificently powerful he is. Haley has enough of a sense motive (given V's negative bluff modifier) to realize that this is no attempt at deception, and indeed what V believes. Therefore she takes it for the truth.

[Setra]

Poor spell choices? She took Disentegrate and Bigby's something hand for her 6th level spells, right?

It's mostly because V banned Conjuration.

That's a pretty bad spell choice in itself.

[Morty]

It's mostly because V banned Conjuration.

That's a pretty bad spell choice in itself.

Mechanically, yes. From narrative point of view, it's actually good choice, as many Conjuration spells look quite stupid and/or can screw the whole scene/storyline.

[Setra]

Mechanically, yes. From narrative point of view, it's actually good choice, as many Conjuration spells look quite stupid and/or can screw the whole scene/storyline.

Oh I know it's good from a Narrative point, but I thought the discussion was about optimization?

[Felistor]

What makes the V-man so powerful is not as much her character build as her player, who seems to be the most experienced of the group, as well as the local rules lawyer.

Roy's player can't remember Attack of Opportunity rules, and is obviously all about the role playing.
Belkar's player is TRYING to min-max combat stats, but doesn't see the point in (as a Ranger) putting skill ranks in Spot or Survival, and he really isn't that good at min-maxing even for combat (he apparently picked Ranger to start as, just because of the Two-weapon fighting, when everybody knows you can be better at that sort of thing as a Fighter, and then he went on to switch to Barbarian for the rage ability), which means that however much of a shoeless God of War Belkar is, he isn't really a powerful character elsewhere.
Durkon would be a great warrior (and arguably the most powerful character -- clerics ARE the most powerful core class after all) if his player had a better head for numbers, and wasn't always forgetting to add the proper bonuses.

Vaarsuvius' player, on the other hand, knows everything from the more obscure uses of prestidigitation (which can indeed be used to clean owlbear guts off oneself), to the metagame laws governing random encounters, and she has the foresight to stock up on low-priced heroism potions and to scribe obscure scrolls like those used to banish extraplanar creatures.

In short, Vaarsuvius has been far more effective than any other OOTS character, not because she has a more optimized build, but because her player knows the game better, and is aware of (and can compensate for) her weaknesses.

Because V-man has been devastatingly effective in all their combat encounters so far, Haley (who probably hasn't seen his character sheet) thinks of him as the most powerful character in the party.

[Morty]

Oh I know it's good from a Narrative point, but I thought the discussion was about optimization?

Well, yeah. My apologies, I'm allergic to Conjuration.
And anyway, if you look at the strips, it's V who causes the most destruction. Durkon goes rampage with Thor's might from time to time and Roy along with Belkar are doing very well on regular basis, but V killed chimera, dragon, blasted the whole group of ogres, and so on. So s/he can sure be named "the most powerful member of the group".

[Chronos]

For that matter, banning Conjurations wasn't a bad choice when the character was created. Remember, the Order were all generated in 3.0, and then converted to 3.5, and V chose es prohibited school before then. In 3.0, an evoker could give up Conjuration or Transmutation, or any two of Enchantment, Abjuration, or Illusion, or any three schools. Giving up one school wasn't a bad choice, compared to giving up two or three, and Transmutation is arguably more useful than Conjuration (especially considering that in 3.0, Teleport and its kin were Transmutation). But then, 3.5 came along, and all specializations required giving up two schools. V had already committed to giving up Conjuration, and had to choose one other school to which e had previously had access to also give up, and apparently chose Necromancy. This also explains how it is that e has Vampiric Touch in es spellbook, despite it being prohibited: E wrote that spell in es book back in 3.0, when e was still able to cast it, and even now that e can't, it's still in es book.

As for Belkar being min/maxed for combat, remember, he's a halfling. Thog is min/maxed well for combat, but no halfling melee build can ever really be optimized.

[silvadel]

I find it really odd that Redcloak has "no evidence" for his int despite him being a confirmed geek who knows the periodic table while Xykon has a 14+ for int despite his absent-mindedness because he can "create diabolical plans."

If anything redcloak has been developing the plans and should have the int bonus while Xykon has at best no evidence of a higher than normal int score.

[Post]

Since he wears no armor, I'd say a Dexterity bonus is sensible. He survived a beatdown by Miko and Soon in close quaters too, right? Maybe a con Bonus too.