Class and Level Geekery II

[PsyBlade]

I'd say we have been given some additional info on MitD's strength. No way it's less than 20, and that's being conservative.

[Porthos]

Hmmmmm.... Might have a problem here with Haley's feats, if we accept that Haley has Ranged Pin (and really, #477 has a textbook application of it):

<In no particular order>
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 Manyshot
5 Ranged Pin
6 Dodge
7 Martial Weapon Proficiency

As a 13th level Human, she gets 6 feats, not 7. "No problem," I hear people say. "This just strengthens the Aasimar theory as she would get MWP for free." And that is certainly true. But it also means that she doesn't get the free feat at 1st level for being human, so she still has one too many feats.

How do we know that she has Dodge? I don't see a link for a comic under the entry, and none of her feats that she has now has Dodge as a prereq. Now I haven't been following this thread since the beginning, so I don't know if there is a comic establishing that Haley has Dodge. But if there isn't one, I think we have to strike it off her list, since there is no room for it.

Alternatively, Rich could be using one of the variant buy systems for feats (i.e. Character Flaws or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" idea), but I'm hesitant to go down that road.

Also, I suppose she could have taken a single level of fighter somewhere along the road (getting both a bonus feat and MWP), but there is zero text evidence for such an idea (and quite a lot against it when you take Origins into account), and I would really not want to entertain the notion unless Rich actually gave a real nod to the idea in the comic.

Any thoughts on this are more than welcome.
----------------------------------

Edited to Add:

Actually, I found a much better answer that renders all of my concerns moot.

<In my defense, I haven't played a High Level Rogue in 3.0/3.5 >

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

Special Abilities

On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

<<<Bunch of options snipped>>>

Feat

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

So that solves that conundrum, and it even leaves a feat to spare. Though I still kinda like to hear where the Dodge idea came from, just for curiosities sake . Now we just have to hope we don't see Haley demonstrate too many of the Rogue Special Abilities.

[anyone]

I think, has a few fighter-levels, giving her bonus-feats and material weapon training. Also I think, she is at last fighter level 4, because of her damage-output. Look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html. She kills every hobgoblin (6hp) with one arrow. It is most likely she rolled at last one time a 1 for damage and it were no sneak-atacks. So she must deal at last 1d8+5 damage. Lets say composit-bow+1 (it is unlikely she is stronger the STR 13) and enchantmet-bonus+3 (like Elans rapier) makes 1d8+4, one point missing. So I think she has weapon-specialistion (longbow), which makes it 1d8+6 and so she fighter level 4.
q.e.d

[Porthos]

I think, has a few fighter-levels, giving her bonus-feats and material weapon training. Also I think, she is at last fighter level 4, because of her damage-output. Look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html. She kills every hobgoblin (6hp) with one arrow. It is most likely she rolled at last one time a 1 for damage and it were no sneak-atacks. So she must deal at last 1d8+5 damage. Lets say composit-bow+1 (it is unlikely she is stronger the STR 13) and enchantmet-bonus+3 (like Elans rapier) makes 1d8+4, one point missing. So I think she has weapon-specialistion (longbow), which makes it 1d8+6 and so she fighter level 4.
q.e.d

Point Blank Shot: +1 Attack/ +1 Damage to all targets within 30 feet.

There's your missing point of damage, with no fighter levels required.

[Glorfindel]

Can we conclude from the last comic that the CitD is able to cast Earthquake at will?

[Aidjn]

Alternatively, Rich could be using one of the variant buy systems for feats (i.e. Character Flaws or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" idea), but I'm hesitant to go down that road.

Well, if you take that link you'll notice that Inattentive could apply to every memeber of OotS.

[Chronos]

...or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" idea

Do people actually do this? It would be horribly unbalancing: A barbarian could trade in his extra skill points to gain just as many feats and skills as a fighter, plus all of the barbarian advantages.

And if there's a good reason to give Haley Dodge, then I support the idea that she used one of her Special Ability slots for a feat. We haven't seen her use any of the other rogue special abilities, and she's had opportunity for several of them. On the other hand, if she does have Ranged Pin, I think it's the first time that the Giant has introduced a feat from a book other than the core. It could have just been a "That's cool so I'll rule that it works" DM moment, like collapsing the tower onto the hobgoblins.

[Porthos]

On the other hand, if she does have Ranged Pin, I think it's the first time that the Giant has introduced a feat from a book other than the core. It could have just been a "That's cool so I'll rule that it works" DM moment, like collapsing the tower onto the hobgoblins.

While it isn't feats, Rich has specifically used material from the Monster Manual II, the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Fiend Folio. So I don't think we are restrained by Core/SRD anymore when it comes to things appearing in the comic.

[Shisumo]

While it isn't feats, Rich has specifically used material from the Monster Manual II, the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Fiend Folio. So I don't think we are restrained by Core/SRD anymore when it comes to things appearing in the comic.

He's also introduced deathless, which are an Eberron/Ghostwalk concept.

[Shisumo]

There are a couple of alternative explanations, I'll list them here:
Roy has increased movement speed through a feat - unlikely and we should have noticed on other occasions if he did
Roy has the run feat - possible but unlikely
Rich made a mistake - well, it COULD happen
my personal favourite: Roy actually wears heavy armor and they aren't any faster by carrying Durkon, it's just they don't know it because back in 3.0 dwarfes still had reduced movement speed in heavy armor and they didn't think about it since then

Isn't there an option C "all of the above" kinda deal? I mean, if Roy wears mithral (or a campaign-world equivalent) half-plate, it wound be a "heavy armor" that is nonetheless technically medium for the purposes of running speeds and the like.

(Note that I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with your argument, but it would nicely resolve the conflict.)

[Porthos]

He's also introduced deathless, which are an Eberron/Ghostwalk concept.

As well as the Book of Exalted Deeds. But I didn't include that one, as Redcloak said "probably homebrewed or cribbed off of another campaign setting" [given the friendly rivalry, that's an obvious allusion the the aforementioned Eberron]. The only reason I didn't include it was that there was room for homebrewing. But in the case of the Eye of Fear and Flame, et all, you can clearly see the sourcebooks on the ground.

Anyway, I figure the days of Mr. Rodriguez and Mr. Jones carting off non-SRD monsters/Copyright Infringments are long over.

[Chronos]

Further on Start of Darkness, now that I have it:

Spoiler

Show

Someone (can't find the exact post, sorry) already pointed out that Xykon cast seven 9th-level spells (a Meteor Swarm vs. the angels, five Energy Drains vs. Dorukan, and a Soul Bind after he'd killed him) in the battle with Dorukan, but then said that we can't deduce anything from that, given a sorcerer's charisma. But we can deduce something from it: Namely, we can put a lower bound on Xykon's charisma. A high-level sorcerer gets 6 spells of each level, plus bonus spells from high charisma, so Xykon must have at least one bonus 9th level spell. This requires at least a 28 Charisma. Given how very gifted Xykon seems to be (first spell when he was four years old), he probably started with an 18 Cha. If he put all five of his level-up points into Cha, plus three more from being Venerable, plus two more from his lichification, that'd put him at 28 exactly, without needing any items. So I think that's his score.

Edit to avoid having two posts in a row: A few other minor (non-spoiler points).

Roy has ranks in Profession: Goat herding, since it's something that someone might learn in lieu of Ride. I'd guess exactly two ranks, but we don't know that 1 semester = 1 rank.

Belkar's possesions include a red crayon or two. Elan had one in that strip, too, but he may have borrowed it from Belkar, or it may have gotten confiscated in Cliffport.

Vaarsuvius knows the Draconic language, since e can read the runes.

Someone other than Elan apparently has the Heal skill, to put his arm in a sling. But nobody other than Durkon or Elan has the skill, or they would have tried to use first aid on Elan. So we can conclude that Durkon has the Heal skill.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

If your counting the dragon magazine comics, then both elan and haley have the dodge feat.

[Porthos]

If your counting the dragon magazine comics, then both elan and haley have the dodge feat.

Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about that particular strip. Well, even though they are technically "seperate continuities", we've already seen some crossovers with skills [Profession (Gourmet Chef)], so I can see the reason for including it now.

Anyway, ever since I (re-)discovered the fact that Rogues can get (if they choose) Bonus Feats, I'm happy with the inclusion of Dodge.

Now we just have to figure out what is her last Feat/Rogue Special Ability. Personally, I'd guess Improved Evasion. Mostly because I can't imagine any character not taking Improved Evasion if they had the opportunity.

Unfortunately, I don't think she has failed a Reflex save in over 300 strips (unless you count this unnamed spell as having a Reflex Save, which is doubtful since it looks to be a Ranged Touch Attack/Ray spell), so it's really hard to tell, especially since Haley would still take damage. Just not as much as a character normally would.

Thanks again for the reminder, Gwyn_ap_Nud.

[Chronos]

If we can pin down all of Haley's feats/rogue abilities, then we also know that she has neither Nimble Fingers nor Skill Focus (Open Locks), and can hence make some strong deductions about her Dex from her escape from the jail cells. Elan's encouragement cancels out the improvised tools penalty, and she says that the lock is Amazing quality, or a 40 DC. That means that her total Open Locks bonus is either 20 or 21: Any lower, and she couldn't have opened the lock even with Elan's encouragement, and any higher, and she could have done so without it. If she has neither feat, then she must be getting at least +4 from Dex, which means at least 18, and assuming that she has maxed ranks in Open Lock (has that ever been stated explicitly?), then her Dex can be no higher than 21.


EDIT: I somehow missed seeing the link on the first page to where the Giant says some more specifics about the same comic, and I also forgot that that was while they were still level 12, not 13. So, yeah, dex bonus of +5.

[Amon Star]

Can we conclude from the last comic that the CitD is able to cast Earthquake at will?

Personally, I wouldn't say at will. got tired after the quake, which could be a roleplay effect from using a power with uses per day. Or, it could means that the Eathquake power fatigues the . Alternatively, it could be irrelevant, but we just don't know.

[Estrosiath]

Xykon
Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 20+ (Knows three 9th-level spells*)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 28+ (High-level Sorcerer, cast 7 9th-level spells during a single fight)*
Note: Since Xykon turned himself into a lich when he was an 80 year-old human, his initial scores were modified as follows: -6 to Dex, Con and Str, and +3 to Int, Wis and Cha. This probably means he has penalties to Strength and/or Dexterity.*
Feats (7+): Craft Wondrous Item (required to make phylactery)
Skills (84+): Bluff (many ranks), Reverse Psychology - class skills are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball, crown that radiates evil.
Spells Known: Animate Dead, Finger of Death, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm, Overland Flight, Shatter, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Teleport, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, Energy Drain*, Soul Bind*, Cloudkill*, Baleful polymorph? (threatens to turn Redcloak and/or Right-eye into a horse).*
All parts with * are proven true in Start of Darkness. There are no online sources for it as of now.

[Wrecan]

And if there's a good reason to give Haley Dodge, then I support the idea that she used one of her Special Ability slots for a feat.

I think that's the answer, and until we get some other indication, I'll go with that. If Haley exhibits yet another two feats, or another feat and a special ability, or two special abilities, we'll reassess it then.

[Ubiq]

As far as Xykon's Strength goes, we see a couple of situations during Start of Darkness that shows he isn't adverse to using more hands on methods.

Spoiler

Show

1) Bludgeoning Fryon to death with a small statue; shattering the skull in the process.
2) Snapping Lirian's neck.
3) He threatened to twist off Right-Eye's head; it might have been hyperbole, but I think he actually meant it.

Xykon also launched himself across the table in the latter incident and carried Right-Eye right through the back of the booth behind him. This lunge might have been magic-assisted, but didn't seem to be.

Could any of those incidents provide a lower limit on how strong he is?

[TroyXavier]

I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon had a Wisdom penatly and he does seem to have some sort of strength bonus.

[Megatron]

I'd say we have been given some additional info on MitD's strength. No way it's less than 20, and that's being conservative.

When he stomped the ground it seemed more like he was just stomping his foot than actually using any type of special/magical ability. I'd say his strength is at least 45 (I mean really, look at the impact radius...) maybe even higher.

[Chronos]

Concerning Xykon's strength, from page 65 of SoD:

Spoiler

Show

When Xykon gets lichified, he says "Look at how limber I am! Suck it hard, arthritis!". So it looks like Rich houserules that lichification removes the age penalty to dex, and presumably the same would be true of strength as well. So we don't need to factor in the -6 to those two scores, and thus they could still be reasonably high (consistent with his accuracy with rays, and throwing the goblins through the diner window).

[Vhaidara]

7 Martial Weapon Proficiency

Where'd you get that from?

[Porthos]

Where'd you get that from?

Haley uses a Longbow. Rogues are not proficient with Longbows, so she must have taken the MWP feat (or gotten it somehow) somewhere along the line.

[Estrosiath]

As far as Xykon's Strength goes, we see a couple of situations during Start of Darkness that shows he isn't adverse to using more hands on methods.

Spoiler

Show

1) Bludgeoning Fryon to death with a small statue; shattering the skull in the process.
2) Snapping Lirian's neck.
3) He threatened to twist off Right-Eye's head; it might have been hyperbole, but I think he actually meant it.

Xykon also launched himself across the table in the latter incident and carried Right-Eye right through the back of the booth behind him. This lunge might have been magic-assisted, but didn't seem to be.

Could any of those incidents provide a lower limit on how strong he is?

Personally I think all these have nothing to do with the strength rating. He used a bludgeoning item to kill someone... That only takes average strength, seeing as how he kept hitting him until he pulped his skull. And I think he "snapped" her neck just as a finishing move; he had already been beating her around like a red-headed stepchild with magic before. She probably just had a couple hit points left, so the "neck snapping" was, I think, just for show.
As for the goblin... Well, he just threatened him, didn't he?

Someone point out that he got rid of arthritis. Well, of course he did, but I don't think that has so much to do with this Strength and Dexterity scores as much as it has to do with the fact he tore off all is flesh, organs, etc... And is now basically a walking skeleton. He's immune to diseases (and arthritis is a disease). At least... I think that's it. I highly doubt he would have had a strength score higher than 14 AT MOST when he was young and fit, so he should at least best have a score of 8 now. Maybe his Dex was higher (he was a mage after all, and dex is pretty important to them for ac and ranged touch purposes), but even if he had 16, he now should only have 10.

[Chronos]

As for the goblin... Well, he just threatened him, didn't he?

Psst... See page 74. That's not an 8 str at work. Even if he cast Bull's Strength off-panel, that's not a 12 str at work, either. Which means that either he had an 18 str to begin with and cast Bull's Strength off-panel, or he doesn't have an aging strength penalty.

And arthritis is basically just the real-world name for the loss of dexterity as a person ages.

[Kreistor]

On Ranged Pin:

Roy's body is an object now, and so cannot be grappled, and therefore cannot be pinned. Roy just does not have a grapple modifier anymore, and so there is nothing to roll to contest the arrow's grapple anymore. It is not necessary for Haley to have any feat to try to hang an object up by an arrow.

This falls under plot device. The Giant needed Haley to be able to do it, so she did it.

[Gitman00]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Xykon's info needs to be updated. He's at least 20th level, with a Cha of at least 28.

(SoD Spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

He knows three 9th-level Sorcerer spells (Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain and Soul Bind) and cast seven 9th-level spells during the duel with Dorukan.

EDIT: Looking back over the thread, I see his level has been discussed. Where's Runolfr? He hasn't posted on this thread since... wow, May 3? He did update his first post on June 13, though. Interesting.

[Boodi]

In Strip 49 where V. attempts to trade a spell with Zz'dtri, V. says V. has Time stop, Meteor Storm and Wish. But to have those spells V. needs to be a higher levelled wizard and have 1 more int.

[TroyXavier]

I think V was being sarcastic there as she couldn't get him to trade any spells at all.