V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[ThunderCat]

The OP suggested we use these abominations of the english language instead of he, she or it.

Why would the OP suggest it? Because the OP believes it is preferable.

Correct on both accounts.

Why would a person believe these words are preferable to he, she or it? Because if, in a real life scenerio... there was a person of unknown gender, and we chose the wrong word, that person might be offended.

Wrong. This is the motivation you have chosen to define for the OP. And that's exactly the form of arrogance I hate about the snobs who use accusations of political correctness to ridicule anyone who doesn't swear by the exact same narrow viewpoint as themselves.

Seriously, there are several reasons to prefer neutral pronouns over gendered ones, and a debate about the merits of various pronouns could be interesting...... assuming people would stop pretending their opinion is morally superior, just because they've used their status as a majority to label any opposing views 'politically correct'. As it is now, there is no dialogue, just a bunch of politically incorrect snobs (who are, ironically, more politically correct than any of their opponents) who presume to be able to speak for both sides.

In summary, the OP suggested we change the way we speak from something that isn't intended to be offensive and is, in itself, not offensive to some awkward way of saying the exact same thing in order to protect the feelings of those easily offended by nothing. What do we call that, class. Yes, political correctness.

To me, it seems more like a case of people who are so easily offended they can't bear the thought of anyone having different opinions and preferences, and therefore need to label other views as 'politically correct' in order to sustain some stupid holier-than-thou attitude.

Ironically, the OP didn't even suggest that anyone should refrain from using 'him' or 'her', it was suggesting to switch nonstandard pronouns such as 'hir' and 'shim', and use the Spivak pronouns instead, because they sound more natural. So it was more case of “If you're going to use nonstandard pronouns, why not switch to these instead?”. But I guess reading the OP is too much to ask of such noble creatures as the crusaders of political incorrectness.

We may have accused of him, but its a perfectly apt accusation.

However, the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the times, its pretty easy to tell whether someone is male or female. These words are unnecessary, ugly, and annoying.

So you support changing languages which actually do have neutral pronouns? You know, so they can get rid of those unnecessary and annoying words? Face it, languages are different, and ever changing. There are things that are much easier for me to explain in English than in my native Danish language, but there are also times where I'm looking at a way to translate Danish proverbs, only to realise there are no english words for what I'm trying to express. Not to mention how things like the inability to distinguish between plural and singular 'you' in English is still a source of annoyance to me. And people handle change differently. Some countries, like Denmark, adopt more and more English words, while others, such as Iceland, make it a policy to invent Icelandic versions of English words, which might be artificial and politically correct, but also make the language a hell of a lot more interesting.

Saying that one way of doing things, in this case, English as it was defined some 200-300 years ago (from what I know, English actually used to have more gender neutral expressions before that), is inherently better, more descriptive, and less annoying and unnecessary, than any other form of language, is meaningless. From what I can tell, the real reason certain native English speakers have such trouble with a change of words, has nothing to do with any inherent quality of the language, and everything to do with what they've gotten used to. And it would be a relief if they would start saying so, instead of making up ridiculous strawmen of political correctness, which is just an excuse for their own inability to handle nonstandard language.

[Red XIV]

If elves have the usual male-female binary sex options, then the belt would change V to whatever gender he isn't. If elves have a different set of sexes, then it would either have no effect, or do something strange as it tried to apply its gender-reversing curse.

Elves have the same male & female genders as humans. It's just that the vast majority of them are too androgynous-looking for humans to tell the difference.

The only exception in OotS is Lirian, who was quite obviously female.

[Azukar]

Elves have the same male & female genders as humans. It's just that the vast majority of them are too androgynous-looking for humans to tell the difference.

The only exception in OotS is Lirian, who was quite obviously female.

So it should be pretty well definitive that if V put on the belt, he would (physiologically) alter to the opposite sex, but would appear either no different, or different but no more gender-specific.

For V to suddenly appear gender-definite would require the Belt of Gender Enhancement or something, not the Belt of Gender Swapping.

[snafu]

For V to suddenly appear gender-definite would require the Belt of Gender Enhancement or something, not the Belt of Gender Swapping.

Oh God. Now some kind of twisted EGS crossover fanfic is inevitable. V5 Vaarsuvius = aargh, pass the brain bleach!

[Holammer]

A quick artists impression of how a "gender belted" V might look like.



The current V is clearly male. Although I have to agree that all the confusion surrounding the subject is an excellent source of jokes.

[Chronos]

The current V is clearly male.

Except that there are just as many people who think e's clearly female. Which rather implies that it isn't clear at all, after all.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd actually love for The Giant to have V put on the belt, and then show no visible signs of change.

Just think of the effect it would have on these threads! Every time there is the slightest bit of "evidence" concerning V's gender, people shout from the mountaintops that they have figured it out.

If V switches sexes all the people who think that V's a male will now have to start searching for evidence that "he" is now female to prove that they were right all along. And vice versa.

Even better, Rich could reveal that V had been wearing the belt for some time, and hadn't mentioned until now.

Then, instead of just saying which gender they think V is, people will have to argue about which gender V is now, which before, and at what point the actual transition occurred.

The internet will collapse!!! Bwahahahaha!

you you FIEND!

[Zanaril]

Even better, Rich could reveal that V had been wearing the belt for some time, and hadn't mentioned until now.

As far as I'm concerned, this is canon until proved otherwise.

[derfenrirwolv]

I think elves in OoTS are so egalitarian as far as males and females go that they view the question as an insult, sort of how some people view race boxes on an application form.

V would realize the difference, but would see it no differently than we would see a change in hair color

[Nevitan]

A quick artists impression of how a "gender belted" V might look like.



The current V is clearly male. Although I have to agree that all the confusion surrounding the subject is an excellent source of jokes.

Ahaha, looks like blackwing is finally getting back into the spotlight.

[JoseB]

*reads the thread*

My opinion regarding language: If it isn't broken, don't fix it. I never felt the need for any special pronouns (Spivak or whichever), especially given that the "singular they" (which has a lot of documented history regarding its use) is used a lot in spoken language.

Languages evolve *by themselves*, in whichever direction the majority of speakers end up taking. Which may be towards "neutralization" of the language, or towards "de-neutralization"...

As an example, Spanish (my mother tongue) used to have (inherited from Latin) a full set of masculine, feminine and neuter pronouns quite a long time ago (he, she, it = él, ella, ello). However, the neuter pronouns disappeared as everything that was neuter ended up assimilated into one gender or the other, leaving only a couple of traces of its existence (the words "ello" and "lo"). It might have gone the other way round, though, and end with most gendered words assimilated into the neuter.

What I guess I want to say is that experiments like creating artificial pronouns are going to fail practically always. The only way for changes to truly happen in a language at such a basic level as its grammar is for language evolution to take its due course. And what course that might be, we cannot know.

"Nonstandard language", in this sense, is (in my opinion) unnecessary and a wasted effort.

And this is just my personal opinion: I always felt that it was somewhat pretentious on the part of the creators of the "special pronouns" to think that they might end up being widely adopted and accepted as part of the language. Language evolution, in the immense majority of cases, does not work that way.

[A. Hamster]

Oh God. Now some kind of twisted EGS crossover fanfic is inevitable. V5 Vaarsuvius = aargh, pass the brain bleach!

Oh, that's funny. Both your statement and that you seem to have injured yourself due to self-inflicted squick!

[Holammer]

Ahaha, looks like blackwing is finally getting back into the spotlight.

A female V wouldn't be as absent-minded the male counterpart. You know the "men-can-only-handle-two-tasks-at-a-time" thing.

[ThunderCat]

stuff

That's fair. As long as you can disagree with others without accusing them of having some political agenda, just to shut them up, I'm fine with that I personally like certain of the neutral pronouns. Maybe it's because I'm as personally invested in the English language as many others, but I'm getting used to them. Especially in cases such as V, it's more annoying when I don't know if people who describe V as 'he' actually believe V is a 'he', or if they're just using 'he' as a gender neutral pronoun (which carries it's set of issues, since I've read too much psychology to buy the explanation that the word is neutral ).

As for language having to evolve by themselves, that's a tough one. 'He' wasn't implemented as a gender neutral pronoun by the common people to begin with. On the other hand, if more and more internet users use nonstandard pronouns, such as here, they could easily become standard 'by themselves' in a generation or two. Assuming, of course, that the users of nonstandard pronouns don't let themselves be bullied by people accusing them of political correctness. I'm not not sure you'd look at it this way if your native language was threatened by extinction, but that's another debate altogether.

[Optimystik]

Elves have the same male & female genders as humans. It's just that the vast majority of them are too androgynous-looking for humans to tell the difference.

The only exception in OotS is Lirian, who was quite obviously female.

Lirian isn't the only exception. There are also two plainly female drow in the comic (one in the line for the women's bathroom in Xykon's dungeon, and the evil rogue that plane-shifted to Celestia); also there's a female elf in front of the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands in Celestia. There might be a couple in Lirian's glade in SoD, but I don't remember.

[DoctorJest]

Assuming the group still has that Gender Change Belt what would happen if Varsuuvius put it on?

There'd be no noticeable change.

By anyone.

Even Kyrie.

[Sutremaine]

If this comic were in French, we'd be using the masculine pronouns (un and le) to describe him. This is because in French (and potentially other languages, I'm not sure) the male pronoun is used when in a gender conflict. (example: in a room full of males and females, you refer to the group as if it were all males, only using the female pronoun if it were all females.)

I've always thought that to be slightly rude, since women will be addressed or referred to directly only as long as there isn't anybody more important present.

[DoctorJest]

I think elves in OoTS are so egalitarian as far as males and females go that they view the question as an insult, sort of how some people view race boxes on an application form.

Or simply regard the question as irrelevant: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html

[Rae Artemi]

Lirian isn't the only exception. There are also two plainly female drow in the comic (one in the line for the women's bathroom in Xykon's dungeon, and the evil rogue that plane-shifted to Celestia); also there's a female elf in front of the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands in Celestia. There might be a couple in Lirian's glade in SoD, but I don't remember.

There are a couple clearly female elves in Lirian's glade, I'd give an exact number, but I can't find my copy of SoD.

On topic- you will find a possible answer here

[Altaria87]

Except that there are just as many people who think e's clearly female. Which rather implies that it isn't clear at all, after all.

Well though I don't see any particularlar bias towards eithe ropinion by his/her appearence I always thought Vaarsuvius sounded more "male", I'm pretty sure 'ius' is always a masculine ending eg. Julius, Brutius, can't think of any others but you get the pattern.

[Snake-Aes]

Well though I don't see any particularlar bias towards eithe ropinion by his/her appearence I always thought Vaarsuvius sounded more "male", I'm pretty sure 'ius' is always a masculine ending eg. Julius, Brutius, can't think of any others but you get the pattern.

V's name is that of a Volcano. For them, it can mean absolutely anything, but for us it is the name of a genderless thing.

[skim172]

In French, if you ever happen to be describing a group consisting of the entire female population of the world and a single pen, then the pronoun for the group is male.

It's not just slightly rude, it's outright misogynist!

[eljacko]

Me: I see Varsuuvius as currently being male since his/her proportions of the body//extremities/head are all commonly used for male characters as opposed to female and btw does anyone notice how quickly this discussion has devolved into an argument over Varsuuvius's gender?

[Snake-Aes]

Me: I see Varsuuvius as currently being male since his/her proportions of the body//extremities/head are all commonly used for male characters as opposed to female and btw does anyone notice how quickly this discussion has devolved into an argument over Varsuuvius's gender?

It always does.
Well, it's better than the guys on the lawful stupid thread trying to motivate chaotic characters into dropping LG governments.

[eljacko]

They must die for their misdeeds.

[Random832]

In French, if you ever happen to be describing a group consisting of the entire female population of the world and a single pen, then the pronoun for the group is male.

I'm trying to think of when that would possibly come up. "So, the entire female population of the world and a pen walk into a bar..."

[Lappy9000]

The OP suggested we use these abominations of the english language instead of he, she or it.

Why would the OP suggest it? Because the OP believes it is preferable.

Why would a person believe these words are preferable to he, she or it? Because if, in a real life scenerio... there was a person of unknown gender, and we chose the wrong word, that person might be offended.

In summary, the OP suggested we change the way we speak from something that isn't intended to be offensive and is, in itself, not offensive to some awkward way of saying the exact same thing in order to protect the feelings of those easily offended by nothing. What do we call that, class. Yes, political correctness.

We may have accused of him, but its a perfectly apt accusation.

However, the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the times, its pretty easy to tell whether someone is male or female. These words are unnecessary, ugly, and annoying.

....I don't think V really cares. Otherwise, Vaarsuvius would have gone off the top on more than a few nameless NPC's.

[TheSummoner]

I agree. If V cared, we'd know if he was a she or vice versa by now...

[JoseB]

As for language having to evolve by themselves, that's a tough one. 'He' wasn't implemented as a gender neutral pronoun by the common people to begin with. On the other hand, if more and more internet users use nonstandard pronouns, such as here, they could easily become standard 'by themselves' in a generation or two. Assuming, of course, that the users of nonstandard pronouns don't let themselves be bullied by people accusing them of political correctness. I'm not not sure you'd look at it this way if your native language was threatened by extinction, but that's another debate altogether.

Language will always evolve by itself. The non-standard pronouns will not become standard, in my opinion, because (1) the proportion of people using them is very small when compared to the general population of English speakers. Also, (2) there is already a perfectly valid option for those who don't want to go the "he or she" route: Singular "they", which has been validated by centuries of use.

Also, there is a big variety of "non-standard" pronouns out there... I am afraid that that dilutes their possible "effectivity". If some people use Spivak pronouns, others use the "ze-hir" varieties, yet others use the "ze-zem" ones... Not to mention "co", "ne", "hy", "thon", "ve" and "xe" --all of them proposed gender-neutral pronouns for the 3rd person in English, with proposals going back to the 19th century... You can see that it would definitely make it hard for a single type to be accepted.

Regarding the extinction of my native language: Languages come and go. They are born, they grow, they change, and they die. The Spanish I speak right now would be incomprehensible to someone who spoke the Spanish of 11th-century Castille... And viceversa. To all practical effects, *that* particular language is extinct.

From that point of view, *all* languages will end up being extinct. They will change into unrecognizable forms that will give rise to something different, or the speakers of that language will switch to some other language that is perceived as being more useful to them.

Languages can go extinct through conscious decisions of their users, as well. Witness what happened to the Ubykh language from the Caucasus, whose last speaker (Tevfik Esenç) died in 1992. The Ubykh people had to emigrate en masse in the 1860s after the Caucasus wars against the Russian Empire, and established themselves in Turkey. There, the Ubykh elders actively encouraged their people to assimilate into Turkish society and culture. Turkish and Circassian (another caucasian language) became the prevalent languages among the Ubykh. Extinction of the language ensued within ~120 years.

But that is another story.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure 'ius' is always a masculine ending eg. Julius, Brutius, can't think of any others but you get the pattern.

The Latin pattern, you mean?