RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: S04 E03

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Yes. And I don't like that. I don't like the revelation that Yang isn't the hot **** she was presented as. That's it.

Spoiler: V04C03

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There is no such revelation. Yang was, is, and will be just as awesome as she always appeared, it's just now tempered with a dose of reality. PTSD can happen to even the most stoic, top elite soldiers and experts in their field. It doesn't make them any less who they were.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: V04C03

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There is no such revelation. Yang was, is, and will be just as awesome as she always appeared, it's just now tempered with a dose of reality. PTSD can happen to even the most stoic, top elite soldiers and experts in their field. It doesn't make them any less who they were.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Thats Forum Explorer's gripe. My problem with it has nothing to do with realistic expectations of the world. I know what your saying is true, and I respect that.

My problem with it has everything to do with my expectations of fictional fantastic heroes, what me as a viewer expects them to do and what they should be capable of. I do not watch them to get what the real world says would happen. They are heroes larger than life, greater and more powerful than I could ever hope to be, with themes that make promises when invoked. When you introduce someone with a mask, you say that their identity is secret and that this is important. When you give a character a name, your saying that they are important to the story.

When you give a character determination, berserker rages and a limitless fighting spirit, you promise that awesome will happen even when they are their lowest point, that even at their lowest point that they should be dangerous, a monster to be feared and ran away from in their despair and rage. That when everyone else is moping, if they are not the hero you should cheer, then they are the monster you should fear. Making her so powerless and breaking her so early and easily is a rude "screw you, you don't get what we promised with this character, you get the exact opposite, nothing but suck and fail". Its a cheap tactic to break a promise like that.

Of course, I would've once foolishly done something similar to a character archetype I hate to be "realistic" and "deconstructive", but thats why I wouldn't anymore. I grown past that. Setting up a well known character archetype then making the opposite of that happen for the sake of cheap realism is nothing but a sucker punch to be spiteful to your audience, like making a paladin then making him fall three chapters in. If you really want to have that realistic deconstructive version of such an archetype, do it right: start out in their deconstructed state and give them memories of when they fit the archetype in their fantastic state, and keep the fall to their deconstructed state in their backstory. Make their starting concept "once was X" to make sure the audience more clearly gets what your trying to get across and what tone you want to set, and what they're intended to be. Otherwise your just needlessly parroting the messy gut punching of George RR Martin for no reason.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V4C3

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When you give a character determination, berserker rages and a limitless fighting spirit, you promise that awesome will happen even when they are their lowest point, that even at their lowest point that they should be dangerous, a monster to be feared and ran away from in their despair and rage. That when everyone else is moping, if they are not the hero you should cheer, then they are the monster you should fear.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Can't say I agree.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Making her so powerless and breaking her so early and easily is a rude "screw you, you don't get what we promised with this character, you get the exact opposite, nothing but suck and fail".

Spoiler: V4C3

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Disagree.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Its a cheap tactic to break a promise like that.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Completely disagree.

Spoiler: V4C3

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cheap realism

Spoiler: V4C3

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Vehemently disagree.

Spoiler: V4C3

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nothing but a sucker punch to be spiteful to your audience

Spoiler: V4C3

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Couldn't disagree more.

Spoiler: V4C3

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start out in their deconstructed state and give them memories of when they fit the archetype in their fantastic state, and keep the fall to their deconstructed state in their backstory. Make their starting concept "once was X" to make sure the audience more clearly gets what your trying to get across and what tone you want to set, and what they're intended to be.

Spoiler: V4C3

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*yawn*

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: V04C03

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There is no such revelation. Yang was, is, and will be just as awesome as she always appeared, it's just now tempered with a dose of reality. PTSD can happen to even the most stoic, top elite soldiers and experts in their field. It doesn't make them any less who they were.

Well we'll see. It is very much a make or break sort of arc. A poorly done one will ruin her character forever, and a good one will make her better then before. Obviously, I hope for the latter, though I typically don't enjoy these sort of arcs in the first place.

Also did you really have to break up Raziere's post if you were just going to say you disagree with all of it?

[Lethologica]

If nothing else, Lord Raziere's comment certainly amplifies what I said about season 2.

I want to hear specific elaboration on "Making her so powerless and breaking her so early and easily" before I can even begin to properly understand your impression of Yang. That's the only Yang-specific thing you've said. Everything else you've said was just "Yang is like a Saiyan, therefore Yang should follow all the same patterns of behavior Saiyans follow." I think that's a fundamentally unsound approach to storytelling.

Playing with expectations is not Bad Storytelling. It's not necessarily Good Storytelling, either--that's down to execution. But saying Yang's arc is Bad because it broke your expectations for a blonde berserker can't really be taken seriously. An argument that Yang's arc has done a bad job of playing with expectations would be more reasonable, but then you have to actually argue specifics of this character and this plot, rather than just slotting Yang into a fantasy archetype and demanding no deviations from form.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: V4 C3

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Also again, the problem isn't that it's unrealistic and unreasonable, it's that it's Yang who has this problem. Who had consistently been portrayed as the type of character to shake this sort of thing right off.

I mean, look at the lyrics to her theme song

The whole thing is a giant statement of defiance, determination, and being unstoppable.

Spoiler: V4C3

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Kinda late to the party for the response but Anyr and BRC covered my response pretty definitively, mostly that her song wasn't about brushing things off or determination but rather 'I'm undefeatable' and then she didn't just get defeated, she got annihilated.

Yeah, I get its a personal opinion on the arc and the character it is being applied to, but you had an interesting opinion and I wanted to know more about it. I just like the discussion honestly, for the record I hope it turns out well too because Yang is one of my favorite characters and I want this character arc to be amazing cause it very well could be.

[Ronnoc]

Raziere I'm not sure I understand where your expectations of epic heroes are coming from. If we look throughout myths and epics there are tons of heroes who suffered major setbacks that they had to spend much of their stories if not their entire lives struggling to overcome.

Gilgamesh despaired after Enkidu's death and his journey afterwards was a desperate attempt to attain eternal life. Rather than succeeding he ended up having to accept that the closest he could get was to build a lasting city/legend.
Samson fell for Delilah and lost his power.
Nuadha from Celtic myth and Tyr from Norse both lost hands and were sidelined for most of the rest of their mythic cycles.
The labor's of Heracles were an attempt at attonement for slaughtering his own family while bewitched by Hera.
Achilles spent years sulking in his tent because Agamemnon wouldn't give him a captured woman as spoils, and only returned to the battle when his companion died.
On a more recent end Batgirl's best storylines happened after being crippled and having to find a new way to be a hero.

Epic heroes freuently have something bad happen to them that forces them to reconsider their invulnerability and grow as a character. That doesn't stop them from being awesome and it doesn't stop them from coming back greater than they were before.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V4C4

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Farmboy hears Ozpin's voice.

Oh, and farmboy is named Oscar.

Qrow has indeed been following RNJR, as suspected, and has been making their journey easier.

Raven is on her own side.

[CrazyPenguin]

Spoiler: V4C4

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Raven is on her own side.

Spoiler: V4C4

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And her side destroyed the village from chapter 2.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Vol 4 Episode 4

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Vol 4 Episode 4 in a nutshell

He was drunk. He's always drunk!

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Spoiler: Vol 4 Episode 4

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So I think this episode made it clear that Ozpin and Oscar are connected and not just a fan theory based off the fact rooster teeth decided to introduce us to farming boy / compost king where we see him in a few episodes and he does nothing and thus he must be important for why waste time generating the computer models, and breaking the narrative to introduce us to a non important filler character.

In the wizard of oz books, the wizard's real name is Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs. (Talk about a long name )

So if you just take the first name for the wizard of oz character you get the name Oscar.

Now here is tie to Ozpin

Oscar
Zoroaster
Phadrig
Isaac
Norman

Henkle
Emmannuel
Ambroise
Diggs

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: WoR: Between Kingdoms

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I wonder how much traffic there is between/around towns. Tradesmen, people traveling between cities, hunter/gatherers or other non-bandit nomads, it seems like there'd be something. Not enough to talk about, I guess.

[A Tad Insane]

Spoiler: V4E4

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Anyone else love Yang's arc? Because I love Yang's arc.

[CrazyPenguin]

Spoiler: V4E4

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Anyone else love Yang's arc? Because I love Yang's arc.

Spoiler: V4C4

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Yeah, Yang's arc is pretty good. But more importantly: Qrow! QROW! UNCLE QROW IS IN THIS ONE! I DON'T CARE WHAT ELSE HAPPENED BECAUSE QROW

I really like Qrow.

[Anteros]

Is this show worth picking back up? I really enjoyed the first season or so, but towards the end of season 3 I wasn't enjoying it at all and dropped it. I'm curious how people feel about the direction it's going now without too many spoilers.

[Ramza00]

Is this show worth picking back up? I really enjoyed the first season or so, but towards the end of season 3 I wasn't enjoying it at all and dropped it. I'm curious how people feel about the direction it's going now without too many spoilers.

How far did you get in Season 3 before stopping?

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: v4e4 thoughts

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1. Okay, farmboy~Ozpin theorists, take a bow. Looks like Oscar's hair color changed, from the way he reacts. Well, I wouldn't have noticed if my hair color changed and I didn't have a mirror, and my hair isn't much shorter than that, so it makes sense. Ozzie's voice is a bit solid for someone without his own body, but hey.

2. Quality nightmare. Seeing it reminds me that the previous episode is the only one so far without nightmares. By next season the plot will be taking place in the Shadow Realm. (I joke, but that mirror-moon in the sludge from episode 1 is still on my mind.)

3. Of course the only fun things in life are related to Qrow. Everyone knows this.

4. It takes Taiyang and Oobleck absurdly long to acknowledge Yang's presence. She wasn't invisible before she chuckled, guys. It wouldn't be that hard to deal with these little things, so it's annoying that they're there.

5. "What are you guys doing here?" "Well, Professor Goodwitch is doing all the work, so..." I guess Mistral gets to take Rome's place in the idiom because it's known for its architecture. Still threw me a little.

6. What is Taiyang even getting offended for?

7. I went to the wiki to double-check Yang's age, and wow, they're not shy about spoilers. Yang's profile image is from after losing her arm.

8. TAIYANG WHAT. YANG WHAT. WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING. THAT WASN'T FUNNY. IT WASN'T EVEN BLACK HUMOR. I'M ACTUALLY MAD AT THIS. OH MY GOD WHY IS EVERYONE LAUGHING NOW.

9. It's not just that moment, either. Everything about this emotional discussion drives me nuts. The unmotivated topic-switching between fear and normality is awful. The phrasing of Taiyang's show of support is awful. Port jumping in on Yang's moment of emotional conflict is awful. The fact that this conversation works to advance Yang's arc is awful. I'll be honest, this arc is tapping into my own emotional history (albeit I have nothing on Yang's trauma), and the way it's handled here just pisses me off to no end.

10. Oobleck why would you ask that question. Tai why would you answer it so indirectly after what just happened. Yang why are you making that face. Why does this eavesdropping scene even exist. No, I have no chill right now, why do you ask.

11. So much for combat awareness. Are the Grimm just obligingly quiet when Qrow fights them within earshot of RNJR? Or maybe he's just so ninja-stealthy that they don't get a chance to fight him, which would explain why this Grimm is focusing on RNJR instead of the guy who just took out three of its fellows over the last fifty meters.

12. I like the waitress. Dialogue quality ~ proximity to Qrow.

13. Hmph, pronoun games.

14. Raven's personality is odd for her character, but she sits in a cool spot in the narrative. Story threads everywhere waiting to be picked up. Also, dialogue quality still ~ proximity to Qrow.

15. It's weird that Raven's tribe is terrorizing a random patch of countryside in the middle of nowhere. Was she just killing time doing what the tribe does best while waiting for Qrow to pass through? Is she headed somewhere with some kind of goal in mind, since she's supposedly preparing to oppose Salem in some capacity?

16. I like the waitress.

17. Haha, the water's going right through the leaves.

[CrazyPenguin]

Spoiler: v4e4 thoughts

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8. TAIYANG WHAT.

Spoiler: V4C4

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I have chosen to believe Taiyan had more than a bit to drink before Yang arrived in this scene until explicitly proven otherwise. Because that was a really dickish thing to say.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: v4e4 thoughts

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8. TAIYANG WHAT. YANG WHAT. WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING. THAT WASN'T FUNNY. IT WASN'T EVEN BLACK HUMOR. I'M ACTUALLY MAD AT THIS. OH MY GOD WHY IS EVERYONE LAUGHING NOW.

9. It's not just that moment, either. Everything about this emotional discussion drives me nuts. The unmotivated topic-switching between fear and normality is awful. The phrasing of Taiyang's show of support is awful. Port jumping in on Yang's moment of emotional conflict is awful. The fact that this conversation works to advance Yang's arc is awful. I'll be honest, this arc is tapping into my own emotional history (albeit I have nothing on Yang's trauma), and the way it's handled here just pisses me off to no end.

14. Raven's personality is odd for her character, but she sits in a cool spot in the narrative. Story threads everywhere waiting to be picked up. Also, dialogue quality still ~ proximity to Qrow.

Spoiler: V4C4

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8&9. I'm a little leery talking about this with you if it touches upon personal issues, but this...kinda worked for me. It shows that Taiyang knows his kids and how to talk with them even if its in ways that would stun other people. I mean....Yang and Taiyang are laughing because they find it funny but Port and Oobleck have that 'oh gawd this is awkward just laugh along with them' laugh going on because they don't know what Taiyang's relationship with Yang is like...neither do we actually which might be why this moment works for me. Plus all the older folks were probably a little tipsy.

Especially the fact that after a moment of consideration, Port and Oobleck stop treating her like their student and more like an adult they want to help.

14. To be fair, we don't really know anything about her character aside from 'she's dangerous' and the contents of this wpisode so I'm not sure her personality can be odd for her character since we haven't been properly introduced to said character. I get the impression that she didn't sack the village to pass time while waiting for Qrow so much as become aware he was close by and seek him out to question him.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: V4C4

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8&9. I'm a little leery talking about this with you if it touches upon personal issues, but this...kinda worked for me. It shows that Taiyang knows his kids and how to talk with them even if its in ways that would stun other people. I mean....Yang and Taiyang are laughing because they find it funny but Port and Oobleck have that 'oh gawd this is awkward just laugh along with them' laugh going on because they don't know what Taiyang's relationship with Yang is like...neither do we actually which might be why this moment works for me. Plus all the older folks were probably a little tipsy.

Especially the fact that after a moment of consideration, Port and Oobleck stop treating her like their student and more like an adult they want to help.

14. To be fair, we don't really know anything about her character aside from 'she's dangerous' and the contents of this wpisode so I'm not sure her personality can be odd for her character since we haven't been properly introduced to said character. I get the impression that she didn't sack the village to pass time while waiting for Qrow so much as become aware he was close by and seek him out to question him.

Spoiler: v4e4

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8/9: It does serve that purpose--but then, Taiyang could say pretty much anything and it would serve that purpose so long as Yang responded well and Port switched names, so I don't give it much credit for that. Meanwhile, the execution is just terrible, IMO. The nastiness was such a reversal of Taiyang's 'protective nice dad gives her space' pattern of behavior, and it hit on so many levels, that I didn't believe it as a friendly jab, and I didn't believe Yang could take it as one. The bait-and-switch camera work didn't help. And that's just the first thing that goes wrong. (Well, not the first thing, but the first serious thing.)

14. Mostly it just seems to me like Raven has the mannerisms of someone from RWBY's generation rather than someone from STRQ's generation. But I might be biased by her appearance. Moe eyes are a blessing and a curse.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: v4e4

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8/9: It does serve that purpose--but then, Taiyang could say pretty much anything and it would serve that purpose so long as Yang responded well and Port switched names, so I don't give it much credit for that. Meanwhile, the execution is just terrible, IMO. The nastiness was such a reversal of Taiyang's 'protective nice dad gives her space' pattern of behavior, and it hit on so many levels, that I didn't believe it as a friendly jab, and I didn't believe Yang could take it as one. The bait-and-switch camera work didn't help. And that's just the first thing that goes wrong. (Well, not the first thing, but the first serious thing.)

14. Mostly it just seems to me like Raven has the mannerisms of someone from RWBY's generation rather than someone from STRQ's generation. But I might be biased by her appearance. Moe eyes are a blessing and a curse.

Spoiler: V4C4

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8/9. Fair critiques of how it was executed but I don't feel this contradicts Taiyang's behavior so much as...defined it I guess. He's kind, protective, and gives Yang her space but he's been doing that for six to eight months now and it doesn't seem to be enough on its own. So when Yang says something foolish/mopey, he gives ver a verbal kick in the seat of her pants to keep it from going too much further...plus by joking about it, if even in such an abrupt way, he's telling her 'this lose doesn't HAVE to define who you are, its okay to move past it'. This is a very subjective thing though, I admit.

14. I'll be honest, I was more caught up in trying to figure out why Raven's look seemed off before figuring it out. Back in the Season 2 stinger she was basically just a recolored Yang but now they've changed her model up a bit.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Spoiler: S4E4

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Raven and Salem both have red eyes... like some other characters I know.

Spoiler

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[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: S4E4

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Raven and Salem both have red eyes... like some other characters I know.

Spoiler

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So much yes, love Skullgirls.

[Milo v3]

Spoiler: S4E4

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Huh. Raven's tribe has a pretty good advantage when it comes to banditry considering how their leader can just teleport them in and out, perfect surprise attack and very little chance of having to deal with grim at the end. That works out pretty nicely.

[CrazyPenguin]

Spoiler: S4E4

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Huh. Raven's tribe has a pretty good advantage when it comes to banditry considering how their leader can just teleport them in and out, perfect surprise attack and very little chance of having to deal with grim at the end. That works out pretty nicely.

Spoiler: V4C4

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Assuming she can teleport large numbers of people.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So much yes, love Skullgirls.

So great, has made me even more critical of RWBY because it's similar but better.

[Anteros]

How far did you get in Season 3 before stopping?

Most of the way through.

[Ramza00]

Most of the way through.

Do you remember Episode 7 which is mostly a flashback? Or did you never get to Episode 7? My advice is based off your response to episode 7 should probably determine whether you should continue / re pick up the show again.



I ask for episode 7 sets up and starts the episode 8 through 12, and has a lot of themes and feels connected to the rest. Episode 7 is a flashback of people in the story and we get to see what happened in the past and how the past is now driving the current arc of season 3. Aka we learn new information that suddenly frames and informs the watcher of what is about to happen with the final story for the season.

After Episode 7, the rest of Vol 3, Episode 8 through 12 can really be seen as one long episode told in 4 acts, aka a mini movie.

Put another way Episode 7 is like pushing a rock up a hill, and then just letting it stay there and suddenly pulling the brake away from the rock and the rock is now going down hill with lots of momentum.

Well if you are not excited and motivated to see episodes 8 through 12 after episode 7, well season 4 is not going to be any different. In Vol 4, the pace of the story is much slower to the "2nd half" of Vol 3 (Episode 7 to 12 is 6 episodes aka half of the Vol). Part of the reason why so far Vol 4 is slower, is that between Vol 3 and 4 there is a small timeskip where the characters deal with events that occured in Vol 3. We are only 4 episodes or so in Vol 4, so the story is just kinda starting and re-igniting from where we left out where we are seeing new story in new locations and new things for the story has moved on.

If you did not like the end of Season 3 than do not start Season 4. If you are not wanting to continue the story after Episode 7 which is a flashback episode, then do not bother to watch episodes 8 through 12.

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The show titles of Vol 3 will help you understand the symmetry I am referencing and thus my advice.

Vol 3 Episode 7: Beginning of the End
Vol 3 Episode 12: End of the Beginning

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So my advice is watch up to Vol 3 Episode 7 and see if you want to continue past that point.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Season 3 was the season where I thought "I'm dropping RWBY if the finale isn't any better than the rest of the season." I'm still watching RWBY.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So great, has made me even more critical of RWBY because it's similar but better.

As much as I like RWBY, and I really do love RWBY, I whole-heartedly agree. Skullgirls is simply amazing and I love it to death, I really hope a Skullgirls 2 happens even if its in doubt right now.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As much as I like RWBY, and I really do love RWBY, I whole-heartedly agree. Skullgirls is simply amazing and I love it to death, I really hope a Skullgirls 2 happens even if its in doubt right now.

Skullgirls still has story problems. I hate Cerebella's and can only be thankful it's technically not canon. All the Original 8 have pacing issues from minimal writing. Despite this, it works because they sell the characters. The stories are basically character introductions. But at this point, I'm confident in their ability to write a canon storyline, because the DLC stories just got better and better. Squigly's story introduced the concept that Double doesn't just stand in a church all day. Big Band's was the first one with truly good pacing, involving a good number of the other fighters in his story, and the DLC stories that followed were equally good or better.

The alternate timelines also allowed Eliza to be really good at doing her thing without actually permanent effect, since the thing she's most likely to do in "canon" is just lounge around and sing until the hypothetical sequel. Favorite villain in anything. Funny then, that she's the same archetype as Cinder.