RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[Anyr]

Spoiler: V5E2

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I don't understand why Sienna Khan was introduced so late. Adam made his first appearance before the first season even started. The rivalry between his faction and the old guard has been heavily foreshadowed. So why does his arch rival (with whom he clearly has a ton of history) only show up just in time to get killed? Instead of devoting scene after scene to Sun's antics, board games and food jokes, the show could have used that time to flesh out Sienna Khan: To make us care about her. RWBY has really bizarre priorities.

[LaZodiac]

Okay let's watch an episode two.

Spoiler: Literally just the Opening Title Sequence

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Starting off, let's talk about the opening. Music is...bad. Pretty bad. This is par for the course for RWBY, but it's worth mentioning that...it's bad. Also it opens with a scene of Ruby, Weiss, and Blake grabbing their weapons...but not Yang. I get that her weapon is a gauntlet so it wouldn't really fit, but they could of shown her grabbing her robot arm and it'd fit and wouldn't be a weird missing "thing" that bugs me. This may just be personal preference on how you're supposed to structure opening sequences though.

I realize that it's Nora so the answer is "because she can" but why in the opening is Nora hanging from the ceiling, and how? And why is Nora the only character who doesn't have an anti gravity field on her skirt? Also, are we supposed to assume those tentacle spike things are related to the steampunk doctor on Salem's team? Because that doesn't read well.

Every time we see Blake's parts of the opening I'm reminded that her current character arc is "do nothing in Zoo town" and while it makes sense in character, it gives a weird sort of feel to the opening. Like, if an opening is supposed to set up the arcs the show is going to go through, reminding me that "like a fourth of this season is going to be Blake Does Nothing again" feels poor.

We get our first look at the Spring Maiden in the opening...completely and utterly spoiling any reveal we would of had for her. Now, this is honestly just a minor point, and one I have with almost all anime openings. The first FMA Brotherhood opening spoils almost every plot twist (but only if you know them going into it, which balances it out) but it still feels BAD to do. Especially since this does confirm the Spring Maiden isn't...anyone we know or care about. So the hiding of her name still feels dumb. Also her design feels a bit...generic? The bird tattoo is neat, but overall it's just a not very impressive design. Amber's wasn't either, and I mean they're just throwaway characters who's purpose will be to die so it doesn't really matter. Related, I also hate Raven's design.

And then we get the part of the opening where There Are Fights. Nora fighting the big bear man on Salem's team implies to me that they're not doing anything of import this arc, because every big bad bruiser who's appeared in an opening has done nothing of any note in the story at all. Junior, this guy...this guy again. They do it a lot. I do like the idea of Yang trying to get revenge on Mercury, because he's basically responsible for her losing her arm after a fashion. I just also hate Mercury so I don't hope he lasts long.

Now lets get into the actual episode.

Spoiler: V5C2

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We open on Lionheart being talked to by the steampunk professor, asking if he's ready. I don't like the dude's design at all, and if I recall he had a brown coat the last time we saw him and this black one just doesn't fit him at all. It's an odd change, if it is a change I am sick so I might be misremembering. They walk through the secret passage to a grimm orb thingy, which is the source of those tentacles from the opening. It's a communication orb of some sort, letting him talk to Salem. Oh boy. Professor boy interrupts Lionheart to be fascinated about the orb and...oh no.

Cinder can talk now. Character ruined. But she tells the idiot professor to shut up, so points. Anyway, Lionheart reveals he knows where the Spring Maiden is..and Salem does an error. She rewards Arthur, the steampunk professor, for making things go so well so quickly. I fully expect this to backfire as he'll take credit for Qrowe's information. Suprisingly, he does not take the credit, and they tell her that Qrowe's here. Cinder asks if Ruby is with them, and I've noticed that her voice is still not completely back. So every...sentence...is said...like this...with sheer...enunciation...and effort. And it's really bad. Also the way Cinder is holding herself, I think she lost an arm as well. Jeez, Ruby looked at her REALLY hard.

Lionheart...tries to say a thing, and Salem just commands the orb to strangle him half to death while threatening to torture him in unending pain. I don't...see why she does this. Salem then tells Cinder and her buddies to go with Watts (no idea who this is) to go to Raven's -bandit tribe- to convince them that teaming up with them is required for living. I doubt this will work but then Raven's needlessly evil and rude so sure, go ahead.

Also apparently Arthur, the steampunk professor, is going to be making or aquiring a robot tail for Tirion. Goody, that guy gets to continue to exist. That sucks. Overall this talk with Salem has been mostly bad for everyone involved. Salem's still a good villain I feel, I just think she's taking some needless bad moves here.

Okay good Cinder drops the overtalking when she has something long to say. She's also confused as to why they'd be working with bandits and keeping Ruby alive. That latter part I get, kill her immediately you morons, but...cinder. Cinder. Your "team" consists of a thief and an assassin. And you recruited a bunch of terrorists who live in the wild in a camp. You...you hired a city gang to serve as muscle. Bandits are arguably a step up. Cinder is under the impression that they're strong enough to just take what they want...which is entirely unfitting with her character of plans plans plans but whatever, that Cinder was garbage and this Cinder is at least tolerable. She's saying words that matter at least.

Salem explains that hey. People are useful. And they can't just kill Ruby because...if she's strong then Cinder must be strong. I think the idea is that Cinder wants to kill her personally and Salem's hedging her bets that Ruby probably knows how to use her eyeball wings now so it's better to level grind Cinder some more first. She ends the conversation by asking her to tell Tirion to get his stupid ass in here for a chat. I hope she fixes his character flaws by making him a not awful character. Or kills him.

Meanwhile on the skyboat, Weiss is having a sad at the fact that she listened to an airplane get destroyed and could do nothing to stop it, killing everyone on board. I mean that's fair. They're...flying through a floating island field, because "gravity dusty" grows in these areas so it makes it all float. I mean sure, fine. It's not like you've explained Dust ever so why not. Gravity is an element now. There's probably going to be a grimm fight here soon, since the pilot says the islands tend to hide grimm cause...I mean they're floating landmasses. Of course something will hide behind it. The pilot says he hopes the other jet that's getting attacked to death will keep the grimm occupied which is SUPER ****ed up. But before we have time to reflect on that another ship is crashing into theirs. Oh no. I guess since Weiss couldn't go to the people getting attacked, the people getting attacked went to her.

The ship is just some support ship though, the REAL skyboat is being attacked close by. Also the cargo ship Weiss is on is able to avoid the crash so we see another person die on screen (all be it in a skyboat that crashes into a wall).

...the skyboat is being attacked by bees. Grimm bees. How is this airship not faster than BEEEES? Even large bees! The bee's have stinger harpoon tow cables so I guess that explains it? The person on the radio broadcasting for help says everyone should abandon ship, but before any people actually show up a bee hits the boat with it's face and then it explodes in a really bad explosion effect. I guess everyone is dead now. So the bees go to attack Weiss's cargo ship.

So, a minor point. The cargo ship is MADE OF METAL. The skyboat is MADE OF WOOD. I almost sort of get the disparity in design between outfits. Some people will just dress like an ancient chinese punchman and some will dress as a future soldier. That's dumb, but fine. Why are the skyboats so disperate? This is a universe where horrible swarms of giant monster bees can attack you. Why would you not all make metal skyboats? The pilot prepares to do Evasive Manouvers but Weiss just leaves the boat to fight the bees herself. Because this professional airship with a professional hunter couldn't kill them, so of course a child can.

Weiss steals the cargo shipman's smuggled cargo of dust to kill the bees. I don't...know why she doesn't have any on her herself, that seems like a really poor idea on her part. Anyway Weiss just...tosses randomly dust spells out at the bees, which is a thing we knew she could do but we've never seen anyone else do and I still feel it's worth pointing out we don't...know how any of this stuff actually works.

Then RT's player crashed because my internet hiccuped ad little. Congrats guys you're the only video player that doesn't stay loaded and start reloading if an internet mistake happens. You've been outplayed by ****ing Vidme. Sorry I'm just very sick and when I'm sick I get irritated easily, and "things not working when they should just work" is a really big pet peeve of mine that one day will lead me to setting fire to someone or thing.

Weiss's design suffers from the same thing that Ruby's does, in that the animators have to hold her skirt down to avoid it from constantly flipping up completely. These designs are pretty bad, and I've talked about it a lot, but I really cannot overstate this point enough. Short skirts are good and all, and I actually like the quasi gothic lolita style on occasion. But it doesn't work here, and it's clearly just bad for animation. Also, animation goof: the fireball comes out of Weiss's stomach and not the glyph she made.

One of the ice lasers Weiss shot doesn't actually hit a bee but instead hits the camera...but still seems to take out a bee off center from the camera. Unclear if the camera was meant to be a bee, or if the off center bee was what she was aiming at and hit despite not hitting it. Still feels like a goof animation wise.

Despite Weiss's best efforts, the cargo jet gets impaled by bees. Bees that came out of nowhere given we can see all the bees Weiss has fired on and there was like two left, and now two more just attacked the middle top of the ship. I can handwave that away as "more bees appeared from behind stuff" but it still feels kinda bad. No matter how many Weiss takes down they still just come back after a scene change.

The pilot gets rid of the bees by doing a swift turn that causes the bees to slam into a rock. Except they were shown to be as agile as his cargo jet? Also it's a cargo plane it shouldn't be that manouverable. But then he is a smuggler so he probably customized it so that's fair, but it's still a little silly it worked on the bees.

Weiss's use of dust magic in this scene basically just implies you can do whatever with it, because she fired off fireballs that went out the ship, then flew around the ship and up over the ship and past the ship into a cliff face she had no way of seeing, and it perfectly smashed the rocks so it'd land on the last of the bees. That's total nonsense. But hooray, all the bees are dead and our hero is happy that she managed to kill all these bees and only an entire boat of people died due to her inaction.

And then a queen bee appears out of nowhere to ruin her day. And the video quality suddenly tanked for no reason. The queen shoots at them, and Weiss shoots back, and nothing really works until Weiss decides to launch all the smuggled cargo out and cause it to explode on the queen bee. I don't think the pilot's gonna be happy, but also they're alive so man, you can do a crime some other day.

Except the queen is fine because dust is apparently worthless. So Weiss summons the knight she killed and...I mean this is neat and all but I'd of liked to see her actually progress? She's gone from being only able to summon it's arm to being fully capable of summoning the whole thing with basically no effort and that's kinda lame. And for some reason the bee is focusing on the summon instead of the plane...and as they fly towards each other to clash the series ruins any fun I had by just having Weiss unsummon it and resummon it behind the bee so it can use a glyph to air jump up to the bee (that is flying upwards) to instead just kinda hit it. Then make it warp around, still smacking it. Instead of just...letting the summon use momentum and it's own strength to continue falling down, slicing the bee in half in a cool "run past the opponent and slice" move. Way to cripple your action scene (and make your attack weaker) you ice idiot. Also to confirm my ice idiot comment, it's blade deflects the harpoon of the bee into the ship and it starts to crash anyone.

Not only did that waste a perfectly cool moment to be slightly more elaborate, the addition of the elaborate warping made the situation WORSE. Good job. And then we get just a random scene of the knight summon spinning in place and slicing the grimm, and for some reason this time it kills it. And it doesn't even get cut in half it just fades. Fights are supposed to be good in this series right? Anyway the ship crashes. Oh no not...Weiss. And the nameless cargo pilot smuggler who happily wished the passenger skyboat would survive dying long enough for them to avoid Grimm. What important characters.

Speaking of important characters, we cut to Fedora McSamurai, as he meets with Sienna Khan (who is a woman, like I said). I actually kinda like Khan's design, which is why I'm sad she's probably going to die immediately. It's overly designed and has a random forehead gem as if they're trying to say she's east indian but it just doesn't really work, but it's a better design than some characters in this show. Though she needs some pants.

She's arguing with Adam, who wants to attack Haven. She's like...no. Stupid idiot. Khan explains that Adam's creepy stalker nature and general ****ery in Beacon is actually, shocker, a bad move for their terrorist organization, and that he's lucky she didn't kill him. She really should of just killed him. Also speaking of designs...Adam's gone from a trenchcoat mafia loser to a really bad Tetsuya Nomura cosplay, because he's wearing a tactical outfit with random ass zippers everywhere and it's...it just continues to be the worst, more edgelordy stupid moron idiot design ever. It fits his character, but it's such a bad design.

Sienna Khan says that she's one of the first people to suggest doing violence at basically random because peace is being complaint (there's a lot I could get into about why "violence when needed" is often not but can be, and how nothing about the White Fang does is actually "violence when needed" and about how this entire thing smacks of stupid, but it's not board safe. Also didn't Adam corrupt the White Fang into bad? That's what Blake's backstory implied, isn't it?) but destroying one of the academies is crossing a line. Which...to be fair, it probably is. Killing one of the four things allowing the world to exist is bad.

Khan then makes a point I made back in season ****ing one, I think. WHY THE **** ARE YOU WORKING WITH HUMANS YOU STUPID DIP**** ADAM! ADAAAAM, THEY'RE HUMANS! WHY DID YOU DO THIS?!?!?!

I'm glad someone in this series has at least a modicum of sense.

Adam says that if she wants to know about the humans Adam's thrown in so much, how about she talk to one. And he calls in the big bruiser man, named Hazel because this series is dedicated to it's stupid bits, even if it means the big bruiser man gets to be named after an elegant flower name. I kind of hate it but at the same time kinda like it. Dedication to the stupid **** you do is, at the very least, dedication.

Hazel gives the classic historical statement (though mangled) of "we hate our enemy more than we hate each other, so lets work together for a mutually dispicable society" and Khan makes the very good point that none of these ****ing morons knows what she's actually fighting for, they're just stupid.

Khan then says her goal is...to have the Faunus feared throughout the world, and that they demand respect and will get it. But she doesn't want to start a war that they can't actually win. So...

okay. Sienna Khan is stupid now. ****ing moron. I don't have to explain why this is dumb, right?

Adam then gets on his high horse, saying they can win because Salem is helping and also Faunus are clearly the dominant species. Humans shouldn't just fear us, they should serve us. Because Adam is a really bad character who says words that don't make sense...but also because this series doesn't...know how to do a racism plot correctly. This is just...really badly written and presented. Khan isn't sympathetic because her end goal is bad, even if her motives are good. Adam's just a ****ing loser. None of it works because Faunus are basically indistinguishable from humans, and also the only benefit they have is they can see in the dark, so it's this weird case of "racism in stories doesn't work if they're actually inherently dangerous" like with XMen (which works far better as a gay angle, not race) but also a combination of "they're not actually different enough for racism to be reasonable to happen". Cause like...okay, look, I can't talk more about this because it's probably not board safe. But suffice to say, this entire scene's bad.

Adam then does his coup de tat, killing Khan. What a pointless character.

Until Khan was brought up last season, everyone just sort of assumed that Adam was the leader. He was clearly lovers or at least good friends with the princess of the Faunus (though we didn't know that yet) and is clearly their figure head, leading operations and stuff. Cinder intimidated him to get control of all the White Fang in the area. But then they introduce Sienna Khan to be like "actually no he's a splinter faction" except...Khan's only role in the series Is To Die so Adam can become the leader. This is basically a wasted like...what, five minutes of screen time? What did this accomplish? Adam is already powerful and strong, we know that. We now know the White Fang headquarters is in Mistral because of what Adam said when gloating about his power, but that's it. Nothing is actually gained from Khan existing.

Even ****ING HAZEL, Salem's mouthpiece here, thinks killing Khan is a bad move. So this should probably break any ties Salem has with him because he's clearly unstable. It just makes no sense to have Khan exist as a character.

Adam says that Sienna Khan will be a martyr for their people, killed by a Huntsmen human. This doesn't really change anything because everyone in the White Fang follows Adam as fervently as a wild pack of animals anyway, so this...maybe just makes them even more dedicated? It's still a pointless scenario. There didn't need to be a Khan.

Adam then goes on to explain to Hazel (who's VERY annoyed that he wasn't told about this) that since Salem was concerned Khan wouldn't cooperate, this is objectively good for her. This is going to backfire very much in his face, I'm hoping.

Adam is one of the worst ****ing characters in this series. **** him.

And because this series doesn't know how to get characters to places they need to be, Weiss's cargo plane crashed in Raven's bandit tribe land, so Raven kicks Weiss in the face and kidnaps her. The end of the episode.

This episode is over now, and here are my thoughts:

Spoiler: V5C2

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I really didn't like this one. The action was...relatively okay but boring, with a really REALLY bad finish that just ruined the whole thing. The intrigue with Lionheart isn't all that interesting because the way that scene played out, every character comes off as worse. Cinder can talk now, so that sucks, and Tirion's gonna get a robot tail so he exists again. Sadly.

and then we end with almost 6 minutes I think of NOTHING HAPPENING because Sienna Khan doesn't need to exist as a character anyway, so her death is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The story would be better if Adam was just the leader of the White Fang, who took over after Blake's dad handed over the reigns. Khan does not need to exist, and her immediate death proves this.

Also the entire room was red so they didn't have to show her bleeding, though we did get some blood on Adam's dumbass sword.

[Anyr]

Spoiler: V5C2

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Salem then tells Cinder and her buddies to go with Watts (no idea who this is)...

Spoiler: V5E2

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She means the steampunk professor. His name is Arthur Watts.

[Ramza00]

I see LaZodiac you figured out Rooster Teeth's site. Are you still feeling sick?

[Lemmy]

The way Weiss moved during her scene felt a bit wonky... Hopefully that's just an isolated incident or my own perception, rather than a sign of how action scenes will play out this season...

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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Sienna Khan exists for one simple reason and one that the episode does quite well.

To show Adam's further descent into fanaticism/insanity. Adam has come a bit of a way from 'I won't have Faunus dying for a human's cause!' when he was...violent but at least he had his principles to 'I'm going to murder a Faunus, who is my leader, for a human's cause/my own'. He's gone from willing to accept the sacrifice of his people so long as his revolution happens to being the one to make that sacrifice, in a non-combat way, entirely on his own and that IS what this is. As Hazel so pointedly says, killing Sienna Khan was not part of the plan and it was done entirely under Adam's own initiative.

And before someone says it, no we did not know this before because before it seemed Adam's craziness was limited to his obsession with Blake and when it came to the White Fang he still had his head screwed on straight. Well..now we know it either never was or it has become unscrewed. It also shows the shift of the White Fang even further since, from what little we heard from Sienna, the goal was to make humanity fear and respect the Faunus so they wouldn't just 'accept' the current status quo of the Faunus' still below-average living conditions and quiet racism towards them. Which is misguided but you can see how someone could have reached that point, not Adam's descent into full-fledged megalomania in forcing humanity to serve the Faunus.

...Plus the minor, so far, knowledge that Adam is working against Salem's own wishes which as we learned with Lionheart is not a wise idea.

-----------------------

As for the Seer scene, I'm not sure how it made everyone else come off as worse. Watts got a little bit of characterization since he's the only one besides Salem who hasn't been repulsed or scared when they've seen the Seer. He wants to study the thing and knowing Cinder can bite back takes some of his joy out of heckling her, so he enjoys giving it out when his target can't defend themselves.

Lionheart is shown to be a very unwilling participant in all of this but has been doing it so long he's acclimated to it and makes the mistake of trying to tell Salem what to do. Hence the strangling and the carrot/stick where Salem thanks Leo for all he's done but he shouldn't forget his place. There was also the tidbit that he was terrified when Salem approached him..what was Leo so scared of at the time when he met Salem that none of his allies know about?

Cinder is still a better character since Ruby did..eye-wings to her, cause her character has still advanced. The same way that Cinder showed her arrogance right after getting the Maiden's powers, now that Cinder has some(?) of the power she's been promised she wants to use it to solve all her problems. Plus I dig the mentor/student relationship dynamic between Salem and Cinder because as weird as it sounds...Cinder is more important to Salem's plan than Salem herself by the Big Bad's own admission. Its a weird thing to hear from a 'mysterious, powerful(?) figure manipulating the plot behind the scenes' type that they aren't the most crucial piece of their own plan but one of their Dragons is.

Its also still weird to keep hearing Salem's 'lets not needlessly get rid of people' attitude from an evil mastermind. For as much as they layer the dark and evil aesthetic and attitude, they didn't include 'needlessly discarding/killing people who have failed or outlived their usefulness'...or some of the other qualities either. Heck, even just hearing out the misgivings her underlings might have about her decisions..it'll be interesting to see what happens when one of them disagrees with her and has a valid point. Will she just brush them off or change her mind? Weirdly interested in that scenario. Heck, wouldn't surprise me if the reason she wants to talk to Tyrion is a reasonable discussion about wording cause Tyrion says he killed Qrow when he really should have made it clear he only poisoned him, no confirmed kill was seen.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Opening

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This is moreso just something I'm curious about...but why were people convinced that the identity of the Spring Maiden was supposed to be some kind of reveal? I never got the impression that any of the Maidens were characters that we had already seen and thus there really is no 'big reveal' to keep hidden...just what the character looks like/acts like which you can only get a hint of in the opening anyway?

The only reason the maiden's identity would need to be kept secret is if her identity was supposed to be a surprise of some kind. Considering her placement in the opening implies the Spring Maiden will play a bigger role in this volume than Amber did in volume 3 (not...a hard bar to clear) it makes sense to have her in the opening if her identity isn't some reveal. Got to make sure all your important characters are visible in the opening to keep them present in people's minds and generate interest.

The way Weiss moved during her scene felt a bit wonky... Hopefully that's just an isolated incident or my own perception, rather than a sign of how action scenes will play out this season...

I'm hoping it was just a case of trying to portray the violent and moving footing that Weiss was trying to stand on, but something felt odd about Yang's movement in her trailer too. That seems like its supposed to be a case of trying to show Yang wasn't as great a fighter at that point, but of all the members of RWBY Yang is the one who's changed up or developed her style the least because she didn't have to. It was one of her big moments in the last volume that her past approach wasn't good enough anymore.

[Calemyr]

Regarding LaZodiac's summary:

Spoiler: V5E2

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I'll start with Sienna. Sienna's thing is that she's willing to go to lengths that Blake's father wouldn't in order to get the respect the Faunus need, just to keep from getting screwed over at every turn like always. She's willing to show her fangs and shed some blood, but even she has lines she won't cross. Namely that she believes there is a line where the humans will stop thinking of them as sub-humans to be stepped over and threats to be exterminated - leading to a war the Faunus lack the numbers or firepower to win. So she acts like a violent activist, throwing rallies here and there and getting shots in when she thinks she can get away with it. The fall of Beacon was cluttered enough that it wasn't the White Fang that took most of the PR hit (Atlas got the lion's share of that), but Adam now wants to double down and take down another kingdom, this time without a scapegoat? Absurd.

I think they included her because they wanted the White Fang to still be respected by people who weren't complete monsters. Most Faunus wouldn't be celebrating the fall of Beacon, but still believe the White Fang are working for their best interests. This is because Sienna Khan has been doing a delicate PR dance between bloodying humanity's collective nose and being the white knight of the animal-eared underdogs. If Adam's brand of White Fang were the law of the land, they would either be hated by their own people or the Faunus would be unsympathetic monsters. Now Adam rules, and we'll see how much of his "flock" will follow him.

Beyond that... uh... well... not much. Raven finding Weiss is pretty absurdly contrived, but it's probably better than adding another four episodes of content with her blundering around until she finds a teammate. And Salem... well, Leo is not loyal to her, just coerced. If he starts thinking he can talk back to her or stand up to her or make demands of her, her control over him will falter, so best to shut that down hard at the first sight. Arthur Watts is the gentleman doctor, and apparently the man behind the black queen virus that Cinder's invasion relied on. And yeah, there's a strong suggestion here that Cinder's arm is either useless or missing, which I find interesting. No sign of kids, though. (And I didn't see Emerald in the fights in the opening...)

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: LaZodiac v5c2

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Lionheart...tries to say a thing, and Salem just commands the orb to strangle him half to death while threatening to torture him in unending pain. I don't...see why she does this.

Leo tried to tell her what she had to do. Generically villainous and not all that revealing or interesting, but it's functional.

Also apparently Arthur, the steampunk professor, is going to be making or aquiring a robot tail for Tirion. Goody, that guy gets to continue to exist. That sucks. Overall this talk with Salem has been mostly bad for everyone involved. Salem's still a good villain I feel, I just think she's taking some needless bad moves here.

I'm not sure what the bad moves are. Is Cinder the wrong person to go after Raven? Is it wrong to try to impose Salem's will on Raven without destroying her? Is it a bad move to fix up Tyrian? (I mean, for us, yeah, but not for Salem.)

Okay good Cinder drops the overtalking when she has something long to say. She's also confused as to why they'd be working with bandits and keeping Ruby alive. That latter part I get, kill her immediately you morons, but...cinder. Cinder. Your "team" consists of a thief and an assassin. And you recruited a bunch of terrorists who live in the wild in a camp. You...you hired a city gang to serve as muscle. Bandits are arguably a step up. Cinder is under the impression that they're strong enough to just take what they want...which is entirely unfitting with her character of plans plans plans but whatever, that Cinder was garbage and this Cinder is at least tolerable. She's saying words that matter at least.

Cinder had to recruit and subvert because she didn't have the strength to just take what she wanted. It's rational for her to think Salem would behave differently if she does have that strength. Still, I agree that having the designated schemer of previous volumes protest Salem's scheming is a weird place to go.

Khan then makes a point I made back in season ****ing one, I think. WHY THE **** ARE YOU WORKING WITH HUMANS YOU STUPID DIP**** ADAM! ADAAAAM, THEY'RE HUMANS! WHY DID YOU DO THIS?!?!?!

We know from v3c7, Cinder's backstory episode, that Adam was at first unwilling to work with humans and that Cinder compelled him to join. Adam's subsequent conversion to enthusiastic advocate is a rationalization based on results--working with Cinder has led to dealing a mighty blow to the hated humans in Vale, and to Adam having enough power/popularity to casually off Sienna and take over. That's enough for Adam to dismiss any criticism of his hypocrisy or his recklessness.

Khan then says her goal is...to have the Faunus feared throughout the world, and that they demand respect and will get it. But she doesn't want to start a war that they can't actually win. So...

okay. Sienna Khan is stupid now. ****ing moron. I don't have to explain why this is dumb, right?

A byproduct of having to compress her entire character and faction into a minute's worth of RWBY-quality dialogue before she gets kebab'd.

Adam then gets on his high horse, saying they can win because Salem is helping and also Faunus are clearly the dominant species. Humans shouldn't just fear us, they should serve us. Because Adam is a really bad character who says words that don't make sense...but also because this series doesn't...know how to do a racism plot correctly. This is just...really badly written and presented. Khan isn't sympathetic because her end goal is bad, even if her motives are good. Adam's just a ****ing loser. None of it works because Faunus are basically indistinguishable from humans, and also the only benefit they have is they can see in the dark, so it's this weird case of "racism in stories doesn't work if they're actually inherently dangerous" like with XMen (which works far better as a gay angle, not race) but also a combination of "they're not actually different enough for racism to be reasonable to happen". Cause like...okay, look, I can't talk more about this because it's probably not board safe. But suffice to say, this entire scene's bad.

I take the opposite position on both of your points.

Racism happens in the real world on much, much smaller differences than the difference between Faunus and human. So does "we are the next evolution" supremacy BS of the sort Adam spews. The basic setup should easily allow for such a plot. All the errors are in the execution.

On the other hand, Faunus don't have the X-Men "they're actually inherently dangerous" argument, because for the most part Faunus aren't inherently more dangerous than humans (what, is Blake gonna maul someone with her ears?). Everyone, human and Faunus alike, fights with Dust, Aura, Semblance, and overwrought gunswords; they're basically on equal footing in that regard. Tyrian fighting with his tail, and that shopkeeper from volume 2 who fought with his claws, are pretty much the only examples of Faunus using their animal traits for combat, and even then they're not overwhelmingly powerful the way mutant powers are.

[LaZodiac]

I see LaZodiac you figured out Rooster Teeth's site. Are you still feeling sick?

Yes and very yes. They updated the site so now it's not total garbage. Still garbage though.

The way Weiss moved during her scene felt a bit wonky... Hopefully that's just an isolated incident or my own perception, rather than a sign of how action scenes will play out this season...

It was VERY stilted, yeah.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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Sienna Khan exists for one simple reason and one that the episode does quite well.

To show Adam's further descent into fanaticism/insanity. Adam has come a bit of a way from 'I won't have Faunus dying for a human's cause!' when he was...violent but at least he had his principles to 'I'm going to murder a Faunus, who is my leader, for a human's cause/my own'. He's gone from willing to accept the sacrifice of his people so long as his revolution happens to being the one to make that sacrifice, in a non-combat way, entirely on his own and that IS what this is. As Hazel so pointedly says, killing Sienna Khan was not part of the plan and it was done entirely under Adam's own initiative.

And before someone says it, no we did not know this before because before it seemed Adam's craziness was limited to his obsession with Blake and when it came to the White Fang he still had his head screwed on straight. Well..now we know it either never was or it has become unscrewed. It also shows the shift of the White Fang even further since, from what little we heard from Sienna, the goal was to make humanity fear and respect the Faunus so they wouldn't just 'accept' the current status quo of the Faunus' still below-average living conditions and quiet racism towards them. Which is misguided but you can see how someone could have reached that point, not Adam's descent into full-fledged megalomania in forcing humanity to serve the Faunus.

...Plus the minor, so far, knowledge that Adam is working against Salem's own wishes which as we learned with Lionheart is not a wise idea.

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As for the Seer scene, I'm not sure how it made everyone else come off as worse. Watts got a little bit of characterization since he's the only one besides Salem who hasn't been repulsed or scared when they've seen the Seer. He wants to study the thing and knowing Cinder can bite back takes some of his joy out of heckling her, so he enjoys giving it out when his target can't defend themselves.

Lionheart is shown to be a very unwilling participant in all of this but has been doing it so long he's acclimated to it and makes the mistake of trying to tell Salem what to do. Hence the strangling and the carrot/stick where Salem thanks Leo for all he's done but he shouldn't forget his place. There was also the tidbit that he was terrified when Salem approached him..what was Leo so scared of at the time when he met Salem that none of his allies know about?

Cinder is still a better character since Ruby did..eye-wings to her, cause her character has still advanced. The same way that Cinder showed her arrogance right after getting the Maiden's powers, now that Cinder has some(?) of the power she's been promised she wants to use it to solve all her problems. Plus I dig the mentor/student relationship dynamic between Salem and Cinder because as weird as it sounds...Cinder is more important to Salem's plan than Salem herself by the Big Bad's own admission. Its a weird thing to hear from a 'mysterious, powerful(?) figure manipulating the plot behind the scenes' type that they aren't the most crucial piece of their own plan but one of their Dragons is.

Its also still weird to keep hearing Salem's 'lets not needlessly get rid of people' attitude from an evil mastermind. For as much as they layer the dark and evil aesthetic and attitude, they didn't include 'needlessly discarding/killing people who have failed or outlived their usefulness'...or some of the other qualities either. Heck, even just hearing out the misgivings her underlings might have about her decisions..it'll be interesting to see what happens when one of them disagrees with her and has a valid point. Will she just brush them off or change her mind? Weirdly interested in that scenario. Heck, wouldn't surprise me if the reason she wants to talk to Tyrion is a reasonable discussion about wording cause Tyrion says he killed Qrow when he really should have made it clear he only poisoned him, no confirmed kill was seen.

Spoiler: V5C2

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Adam thinks killing Blake will make her love him more. He basically did this entire attack on Beacon for like, 40% to get at Blake. We don't need reinforcement that he's a ****ing prick. And I feel like they could of reversed the roles and it would of been better, actually. Have Sienna or whoever be someone who wants to take the leadership, and he kills her. That would show he's still acting against Salem's plans, while also show how ruthless he is. If you wanted to do this type of thing, at any rate.

I just feel like Salem is better than this. She doesn't need to carrot and stick people so overtly. She dismissed Arthur's whining about Cinder "losing" even though she only "lost" because of a surprise bull**** out of nowhere eyeball wing glare. She's smart enough to acknowledge that things aren't perfect, so she should be smart enough to actually listen to her minions, even the ones she probably intends to dispose of when they're done being useful. Just in case.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Opening

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This is moreso just something I'm curious about...but why were people convinced that the identity of the Spring Maiden was supposed to be some kind of reveal? I never got the impression that any of the Maidens were characters that we had already seen and thus there really is no 'big reveal' to keep hidden...just what the character looks like/acts like which you can only get a hint of in the opening anyway?

The only reason the maiden's identity would need to be kept secret is if her identity was supposed to be a surprise of some kind. Considering her placement in the opening implies the Spring Maiden will play a bigger role in this volume than Amber did in volume 3 (not...a hard bar to clear) it makes sense to have her in the opening if her identity isn't some reveal. Got to make sure all your important characters are visible in the opening to keep them present in people's minds and generate interest.

I'm hoping it was just a case of trying to portray the violent and moving footing that Weiss was trying to stand on, but something felt odd about Yang's movement in her trailer too. That seems like its supposed to be a case of trying to show Yang wasn't as great a fighter at that point, but of all the members of RWBY Yang is the one who's changed up or developed her style the least because she didn't have to. It was one of her big moments in the last volume that her past approach wasn't good enough anymore.

Spoiler: V5C2

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I figured she would be important given...you know, she's the entire plot macguffin. They build up these powers as meant to be a big deal, so I do feel each Maiden should be a big deal. Otherwise it's like...what's the point? They're just a regular person? I still hold by the idea that Qrowe and Ozpin don't actually care about the people, just the power, and that's why they only refer to her by "Spring Maiden" and completely ignore her genuine fear about being a super god.

Even if it's not some reveal, I do think she should look better. Make HER use Sienna Khan's design. And give her some ****ing pants.

Regarding LaZodiac's summary:

Spoiler: V5E2

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I'll start with Sienna. Sienna's thing is that she's willing to go to lengths that Blake's father wouldn't in order to get the respect the Faunus need, just to keep from getting screwed over at every turn like always. She's willing to show her fangs and shed some blood, but even she has lines she won't cross. Namely that she believes there is a line where the humans will stop thinking of them as sub-humans to be stepped over and threats to be exterminated - leading to a war the Faunus lack the numbers or firepower to win. So she acts like a violent activist, throwing rallies here and there and getting shots in when she thinks she can get away with it. The fall of Beacon was cluttered enough that it wasn't the White Fang that took most of the PR hit (Atlas got the lion's share of that), but Adam now wants to double down and take down another kingdom, this time without a scapegoat? Absurd.

I think they included her because they wanted the White Fang to still be respected by people who weren't complete monsters. Most Faunus wouldn't be celebrating the fall of Beacon, but still believe the White Fang are working for their best interests. This is because Sienna Khan has been doing a delicate PR dance between bloodying humanity's collective nose and being the white knight of the animal-eared underdogs. If Adam's brand of White Fang were the law of the land, they would either be hated by their own people or the Faunus would be unsympathetic monsters. Now Adam rules, and we'll see how much of his "flock" will follow him.

Beyond that... uh... well... not much. Raven finding Weiss is pretty absurdly contrived, but it's probably better than adding another four episodes of content with her blundering around until she finds a teammate. And Salem... well, Leo is not loyal to her, just coerced. If he starts thinking he can talk back to her or stand up to her or make demands of her, her control over him will falter, so best to shut that down hard at the first sight. Arthur Watts is the gentleman doctor, and apparently the man behind the black queen virus that Cinder's invasion relied on. And yeah, there's a strong suggestion here that Cinder's arm is either useless or missing, which I find interesting. No sign of kids, though. (And I didn't see Emerald in the fights in the opening...)

Spoiler: V5C2

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They could do that with Dad Blake.

I mean it's Cinder every part of her is useless so that's nothing new. And yeah Emerald is probably hanging out with Tirion because she has to be somewhere.

Spoiler: LaZodiac v5c2

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Leo tried to tell her what she had to do. Generically villainous and not all that revealing or interesting, but it's functional.


I'm not sure what the bad moves are. Is Cinder the wrong person to go after Raven? Is it wrong to try to impose Salem's will on Raven without destroying her? Is it a bad move to fix up Tyrian? (I mean, for us, yeah, but not for Salem.)


Cinder had to recruit and subvert because she didn't have the strength to just take what she wanted. It's rational for her to think Salem would behave differently if she does have that strength. Still, I agree that having the designated schemer of previous volumes protest Salem's scheming is a weird place to go.


We know from v3c7, Cinder's backstory episode, that Adam was at first unwilling to work with humans and that Cinder compelled him to join. Adam's subsequent conversion to enthusiastic advocate is a rationalization based on results--working with Cinder has led to dealing a mighty blow to the hated humans in Vale, and to Adam having enough power/popularity to casually off Sienna and take over. That's enough for Adam to dismiss any criticism of his hypocrisy or his recklessness.

A byproduct of having to compress her entire character and faction into a minute's worth of RWBY-quality dialogue before she gets kebab'd.

I take the opposite position on both of your points.

Racism happens in the real world on much, much smaller differences than the difference between Faunus and human. So does "we are the next evolution" supremacy BS of the sort Adam spews. The basic setup should easily allow for such a plot. All the errors are in the execution.

On the other hand, Faunus don't have the X-Men "they're actually inherently dangerous" argument, because for the most part Faunus aren't inherently more dangerous than humans (what, is Blake gonna maul someone with her ears?). Everyone, human and Faunus alike, fights with Dust, Aura, Semblance, and overwrought gunswords; they're basically on equal footing in that regard. Tyrian fighting with his tail, and that shopkeeper from volume 2 who fought with his claws, are pretty much the only examples of Faunus using their animal traits for combat, and even then they're not overwhelmingly powerful the way mutant powers are.

Spoiler: V5C2

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Salem seems like the type to actually listen to her underlings.

I think it's a bad move to fix up Tirion because I hate him and want him to die. I'm not saying it's a bad move on Salem's part to team up with the bandits, I'm just saying to Cinder that she really shouldn't be saying "no bandits" when she's dealt with city bandits herself. I do think Raven will backfire because why the **** would you trust someone who's pretty clearly a satan. Raven's gonna stab Salem in the back as soon as possible if they team up.

I just really think the whole faunus racism angle is really dumb.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: V5C2

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I figured she would be important given...you know, she's the entire plot macguffin. They build up these powers as meant to be a big deal, so I do feel each Maiden should be a big deal. Otherwise it's like...what's the point? They're just a regular person? I still hold by the idea that Qrowe and Ozpin don't actually care about the people, just the power, and that's why they only refer to her by "Spring Maiden" and completely ignore her genuine fear about being a super god.

Even if it's not some reveal, I do think she should look better. Make HER use Sienna Khan's design. And give her some ****ing pants.

Spoiler: V5 C2

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Okay...but there is a very large difference between being important and their reveal being important, which is actually we haven't seen yet. All we have is a still image that..reveals what the Spring Maiden looks like. That's it. We haven't had the reveal in show yet.

A reveal of identity only makes sense if the character's identity in and of itself is important. Say like...if we found out that Winter Schnee was the Spring Maiden, in that case its an important reveal and I'd understand. If its an entirely new character and there isn't some mystery about what the Spring Maiden's identity is than there isn't a ton of reason to keep the character hidden. And part of the reason the powers are treated as so important is because they can and will end up going to regular people. All it would take is Spring dying and thinking about the female equivalent of Oscar and the Spring Maiden is a young woman who's previous biggest concern was if the turnip harvest would turn out okay.

Totally agree on the Qrowe and Ozpin theory though, makes too much sense.

I'm not judging a design that I haven't seen yet but I have to ask now...why such intense love of pants? I hate pants personally but do you just not like skirts or...what? Very curious!

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: V5 C2

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Okay...but there is a very large difference between being important and their reveal being important, which is actually we haven't seen yet. All we have is a still image that..reveals what the Spring Maiden looks like. That's it. We haven't had the reveal in show yet.

A reveal of identity only makes sense if the character's identity in and of itself is important. Say like...if we found out that Winter Schnee was the Spring Maiden, in that case its an important reveal and I'd understand. If its an entirely new character and there isn't some mystery about what the Spring Maiden's identity is than there isn't a ton of reason to keep the character hidden. And part of the reason the powers are treated as so important is because they can and will end up going to regular people. All it would take is Spring dying and thinking about the female equivalent of Oscar and the Spring Maiden is a young woman who's previous biggest concern was if the turnip harvest would turn out okay.

Totally agree on the Qrowe and Ozpin theory though, makes too much sense.

I'm not judging a design that I haven't seen yet but I have to ask now...why such intense love of pants? I hate pants personally but do you just not like skirts or...what? Very curious!

Spoiler: V5C2

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She's a quasi paramilitary terrorist she should wear pants. To clarify, the issue is she has no bottoms at all. She's wearing a leotard with some weird open thing on her legs, which does show off the tiger stripe tattoos on her body which I actually REALLY like, design wise? But her outfit feels incomplete, or a bit TOO fetishy.

Like I said, Spring showing up in the opening is a minor point, and anime does this all the time. Stain shows up in the opening way before he's important and that bothers me too. I'm just taking that early spoiler of her design into mind when I talk about how they're really coy about who she is, never saying her name and stuff, and trying to find out "why".

[Lethologica]

(v5c2 spoilers) Headcanon until next episode drops

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: V5C2

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She's a quasi paramilitary terrorist she should wear pants. To clarify, the issue is she has no bottoms at all. She's wearing a leotard with some weird open thing on her legs, which does show off the tiger stripe tattoos on her body which I actually REALLY like, design wise? But her outfit feels incomplete, or a bit TOO fetishy.

Like I said, Spring showing up in the opening is a minor point, and anime does this all the time. Stain shows up in the opening way before he's important and that bothers me too. I'm just taking that early spoiler of her design into mind when I talk about how they're really coy about who she is, never saying her name and stuff, and trying to find out "why".

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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Counterpoint, pants are a terrible thing and I would burn them all if I could. More proper point, Sienna is indeed a paramilitary terrorist but she's also one that clearly hasn't taken to the 'field' in a long time and holds court in the White Fang's hidden headquarters. Hence Adam's popularity and message gaining sway, that kind of thing tends to happen when your true leader isn't very visible or openly pro-active. In other words, don't need no pants! DOWN WITH PANTS!

That sort of thing only bothers me when its an actual spoiler...like FMA: Brotherhood showing Bradley as a Homunculus. That was upsetting. And I'm inclined to believe what you said before that Qrow and Ozpin see Spring for her power rather than as a person, something Raven probably doesn't do but sees Spring as who she is. That's a hunch on my part that Raven's desire to make her tribe stronger is probably what garnered Spring's loyalty(?) to her. Heck, its likely that Qrow and Ozpin never learned Spring's name since it seems one Maiden is in each kingdom and as such they actually just didn't know Spring and left it up to Leo.

I also heard the interesting idea that Leo's excitement at hearing Qrow's news wasn't just cause he had something to give to Salem but because he has a personal stake in Spring's wellbeing. Maybe cause Spring is his daughter.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Episode 2

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This professor guy is great, he says what we're all thinking when Cinder starts talking again. And he hates Tyrion.

Hey Cowardly Lion, you aren't actually a minion, you're Salem's slave. Don't forget your place.

Yes, Cinder go in and get yourself killed. Spare us all your presence.

Heh, looks like Wiess gets to save those people anyways.

Or not.

I'm really stating to like this pilot. I hope we see more of him.

I'm kinda bothered that multiple crates of Dust did basically nothing to the Queen Bee, but the summoned knight chops it up easily.

Nooooo, pilot dude! Why did you have to die? Okay we don't see the body, but lets be honest here, he didn't survive that crash.

Well Adam, the humans have armies of robots, humans, and giant kingdoms. You have a crappy terrorist cell that needed to depend on humans every step of the way to take out Beacon. In fact your net contribution was pretty negligible.

Okay, so does Adam's sword just completely ignore Aura or something? Cause that would be pretty neat. Also maybe Adam being in Mistral is what will bring Blake over there? I've been wondering how she'll manage to rejoin team RWBY cause she seems to be kinda stuck on the opposite side of the ocean.

I like Hazel, but I wonder why he's working for Salem.

And Wiess is kidnapped by Raven. K. Good luck ransoming her with the radio out.

[Rawhide]

Page 50. If we have consensus on the new title, which I believe we have, I’ll work on updating the first post to be accurate to the current release schedule very shortly. In the meantime, don’t worry about if we spill over a page or two.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Episode 2

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And Wiess is kidnapped by Raven. K. Good luck ransoming her with the radio out.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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And with her being disowned. And Papa Schnee being a massive a**hat.

...Honestly, Weiss isn't worth the trouble of kidnapping right now considering she is almost guaranteed to escape considering she doesn't need her hands to summon and we have yet to see something that could stop her from doing so.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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And with her being disowned. And Papa Schnee being a massive a**hat.

...Honestly, Weiss isn't worth the trouble of kidnapping right now considering she is almost guaranteed to escape considering she doesn't need her hands to summon and we have yet to see something that could stop her from doing so.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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To be fair, Raven has no way of knowing any of that. I don't think she even saw the fight. She likely came to the crash site to see what she could salvage from the remains.

On a side note, did Salem say she couldn't leave wherever she's located?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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To be fair, Raven has no way of knowing any of that. I don't think she even saw the fight. She likely came to the crash site to see what she could salvage from the remains.

On a side note, did Salem say she couldn't leave wherever she's located?

Spoiler: V5 C2

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Very true, Raven might not even know she has the ex-Schnee heiress in her clutches right now.

Also, not sure! I actually haven't gotten to the repeat views of chapter 2 just yet. I don't think Salem didn't imply she couldn't but rather shouldn't.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: V5 C2

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Very true, Raven might not even know she has the ex-Schnee heiress in her clutches right now.

Spoiler: v5c2

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The dialogue suggests that Raven knows Weiss is valuable. That could just be because she's well-dressed or something, but it'd be kind of a wasted line if that was all it was about.

[Reddish Mage]

Okay with the next episode already on the horizon I best make my comment on this one while I still can.

I'll make them as a reply to Zodi, cause she makes some good points (and its rare I actually agree).

Spoiler: V5C2

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Lionheart...tries to say a thing, and Salem just commands the orb to strangle him half to death while threatening to torture him in unending pain. I don't...see why she does this. Salem then tells Cinder and her buddies to go with Watts (no idea who this is) to go to Raven's -bandit tribe- to convince them that teaming up with them is required for living. I doubt this will work but then Raven's needlessly evil and rude so sure, go ahead.

Spoiler: S5E2 Salem's a Witch

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I have to say this one is spot on. Salem is not especially at her best in this scene. Lionheart was actually trying to be helpful. I can see the counterargument that Lionheart getting excited and showing anything but meek respect is probably dangerous to Salem (since Lionheart is only following her out of fear) but Salems way of being manipulative just strikes me as too generically evil. It would be better if Salem had more subtle ways of showing her power over Leo.

Spoiler: V5C2

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Also apparently Arthur, the steampunk professor, is going to be making or aquiring a robot tail for Tirion. Goody, that guy gets to continue to exist. That sucks. Overall this talk with Salem has been mostly bad for everyone involved. Salem's still a good villain I feel, I just think she's taking some needless bad moves here.

Spoiler: V5E2 Watts Up?

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Arthur Watts isn't a very interesting villain, I feel, and Tyrion isn't either. Watts seems like bored arrogant steampunk professor and Tyrion is just a murderous child when he isn't Salem's pathetic pet.

Salem's moves here actually are strengthening her team and keeping Leo in line, but if you mean not that she is making bad moves but that cRWBY isn't doing a great job with her as a villain here than I agree.

Salem is clearly supposed to be someone with an awful lot of power and knows how to use it. So she should be able to keep people in line and doing what she wants with soft words and subtle manipulations. Not torture or derision.

Contrast how Adam take-over the White Fang. He shows Sienna he's in charge without once insulting her or saying anything but praising or politely trying to convince her...up until he kills her.

Now that's someone who has all the power and knows it.

Spoiler: V5C2

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Okay good Cinder drops the overtalking when she has something long to say. She's also confused as to why they'd be working with bandits and keeping Ruby alive. That latter part I get, kill her immediately you morons, but...cinder. Cinder. Your "team" consists of a thief and an assassin. And you recruited a bunch of terrorists who live in the wild in a camp. You...you hired a city gang to serve as muscle. Bandits are arguably a step up. Cinder is under the impression that they're strong enough to just take what they want...which is entirely unfitting with her character of plans plans plans but whatever, that Cinder was garbage and this Cinder is at least tolerable. She's saying words that matter at least.

Spoiler: S5E2 From the Ashes

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Cinder is improved by being damaged, vulnerable, and not the one in charge. Now she has a human personality and a reason to motivate her that we can understand, and its to kill Ruby.

I liked her before as an over-the-top villainess. I like her better like this. I think speaking is going to be necessary, however, if she is going to express her newly found real emotions going forward.

I'll leave off the rest of my review for now. Sienna you later.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: V5E2 Watts Up?

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Arthur Watts isn't a very interesting villain, I feel, and Tyrion isn't either. Watts seems like bored arrogant steampunk professor and Tyrion is just a murderous child when he isn't Salem's pathetic pet.

Salem's moves here actually are strengthening her team and keeping Leo in line, but if you mean not that she is making bad moves but that cRWBY isn't doing a great job with her as a villain here than I agree.

Salem is clearly supposed to be someone with an awful lot of power and knows how to use it. So she should be able to keep people in line and doing what she wants with soft words and subtle manipulations. Not torture or derision.

Contrast how Adam take-over the White Fang. He shows Sienna he's in charge without once insulting her or saying anything but praising or politely trying to convince her...up until he kills her.

Now that's someone who has all the power and knows it.

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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I disagree on Tyrian being dull but honestly Watts hasn't gotten enough screen-time to make a judgement call either which way.

Even then...I disagree on Salem as well..there's no torture or derision to be had in what Salem does to Leo. Just a reminder of whom he is dealing with and his place in comparison. Speaking of comparisons, Adam isn't a good one (in that scenario) cause...well...he's there to kill Sienna. There's no need for him to know anything about her because he's going to kill her and doesn't need to keep her in line or anything.

Unlike with Salem and...well...everyone she's dealt with so far.

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: Volume 5 Chapter 2

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I disagree on Tyrian being dull but honestly Watts hasn't gotten enough screen-time to make a judgement call either which way.

Even then...I disagree on Salem as well..there's no torture or derision to be had in what Salem does to Leo. Just a reminder of whom he is dealing with and his place in comparison. Speaking of comparisons, Adam isn't a good one (in that scenario) cause...well...he's there to kill Sienna. There's no need for him to know anything about her because he's going to kill her and doesn't need to keep her in line or anything.

Unlike with Salem and...well...everyone she's dealt with so far.

Spoiler: V2E2 Torture and Derision

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Lionheart starts to tell Salem she has to hurry and warn her of Qrow when she interrupts by choking him with the orb Grimm’s tentacle and then having another sharp tentacle end hover around his eyes while she corrects him like a little boy.

She reminds him how afraid he was ... and tells him to remember what she can do to him. Salem also has a tendency to talk over him to Watts. There’s a lot of derision and use of pure fear here.

Yes, Salem’s voice work is spot on, and her lines are far more polite than what she’s doing. Its still over the top.

Let’s look at Sienna Khan

Spoiler: V5E2 Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

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In this scene Adam is showing how someone who knows he has all the cards exercises power in a way that everyone knows is.

We know from how things end Adam is planning a coup, yet he never threatens Sienna or tries to force his views on her. He patiently presents his case to her for what he wants to do, while she gets aggravated more and more by the minute.

To be fair her ideas are all relatively sane, if not actually reasonable, next to Adam’s for what the Faunus are to do.

Sienna says that the Faunus shouldn’t work with humans they know nothing about to achieve their goals, which to Sienna is apparently Faunus equality of some sort. Sienna doesn’t see throwing the world into Chaos, and starting an all out war against the humans to be a good idea.

One can, and Zodi did sort of, point out that Sienna’s ideas are actually contradictory. Sienna thinks she can achieve Faunus equality through violence. She apparently wants humans to fear the Faunus. Yet the idea that violence and fear will lead to peace and equality seems oxymoronic. Also, Sienna’s willingness to commit violence but not “start a war” seems like confusing difference in scale.

Adam ideas are much purer and easier to understand. Adam wants fight and win a war against the humans so the Faunus can take over. Adam even offers to allow Hazel to explain Salem’s goals (unfortunately, Sienna is more interested in debating with Adam so we never actually hear what Salem’s group goals actually are!).

But Adam goes through all that time explaining his ideology, and when the time comes for the coup, Adam doesn’t command anyone. Sienna watches her soldiers turn against her as she orders Adam taken prisoner. Adam is now in full control but he still takes no action against Sienna. Not until Sienna tells Adam that she isn’t going to fall in line, does he kill her, and instead of gloating, merely tells the soldiers to spread the lie Sienna was killed by a human.

Those are the actions of someone who doesn’t feel the need for bluster, or anger, or apology. This is how Salem ought to be acting.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: V2E2 Torture and Derision

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Lionheart starts to tell Salem she has to hurry and warn her of Qrow when she interrupts by choking him with the orb Grimm’s tentacle and then having another sharp tentacle end hover around his eyes while she corrects him like a little boy.

She reminds him how afraid he was ... and tells him to remember what she can do to him. Salem also has a tendency to talk over him to Watts. There’s a lot of derision and use of pure fear here.

Yes, Salem’s voice work is spot on, and her lines are far more polite than what she’s doing. Its still over the top.

Let’s look at Sienna Khan

Spoiler: V5E2 Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

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In this scene Adam is showing how someone who knows he has all the cards exercises power in a way that everyone knows is.

We know from how things end Adam is planning a coup, yet he never threatens Sienna or tries to force his views on her. He patiently presents his case to her for what he wants to do, while she gets aggravated more and more by the minute.

To be fair her ideas are all relatively sane, if not actually reasonable, next to Adam’s for what the Faunus are to do.

Sienna says that the Faunus shouldn’t work with humans they know nothing about to achieve their goals, which to Sienna is apparently Faunus equality of some sort. Sienna doesn’t see throwing the world into Chaos, and starting an all out war against the humans to be a good idea.

One can, and Zodi did sort of, point out that Sienna’s ideas are actually contradictory. Sienna thinks she can achieve Faunus equality through violence. She apparently wants humans to fear the Faunus. Yet the idea that violence and fear will lead to peace and equality seems oxymoronic. Also, Sienna’s willingness to commit violence but not “start a war” seems like confusing difference in scale.

Adam ideas are much purer and easier to understand. Adam wants fight and win a war against the humans so the Faunus can take over. Adam even offers to allow Hazel to explain Salem’s goals (unfortunately, Sienna is more interested in debating with Adam so we never actually hear what Salem’s group goals actually are!).

But Adam goes through all that time explaining his ideology, and when the time comes for the coup, Adam doesn’t command anyone. Sienna watches her soldiers turn against her as she orders Adam taken prisoner. Adam is now in full control but he still takes no action against Sienna. Not until Sienna tells Adam that she isn’t going to fall in line, does he kill her, and instead of gloating, merely tells the soldiers to spread the lie Sienna was killed by a human.

Those are the actions of someone who doesn’t feel the need for bluster, or anger, or apology. This is how Salem ought to be acting.

Spoiler: V5E2

Show

I disagree. Salem does need to 'bluster' particularly in regards to Lionheart because, and this is important, he doesn't actually work for her. Lionheart is only helping Salem because he's terrified of her or of what she can do. So when he starts to speak disrespectfully, clearly showing that Lionheart's fear is fading, she takes steps to remind him why he fears her.

Adam on the other hand, needs to remain calm. His coup might not work if Khan catches on too soon. So he distracts her with Hazel, pretends to be loyal, and finally pretends that it's going to be a peaceful coup. All so Khan doesn't fight back violently, but Adam was always planning on killing her. That's what his whole 'I disagree' thing with Hazel basically means.


Regarding Watts being interesting or not; well like Callos said, he's been in all of two or three scenes. I feel it's still to early to tell if he'll be a good villain or not.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: V2E2 Torture and Derision

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Lionheart starts to tell Salem she has to hurry and warn her of Qrow when she interrupts by choking him with the orb Grimm’s tentacle and then having another sharp tentacle end hover around his eyes while she corrects him like a little boy.

She reminds him how afraid he was ... and tells him to remember what she can do to him. Salem also has a tendency to talk over him to Watts. There’s a lot of derision and use of pure fear here.

Yes, Salem’s voice work is spot on, and her lines are far more polite than what she’s doing. Its still over the top.

Spoiler: V5C2

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Minor correction, but Lionheart starts to tell Salem that she needs to go get the Spring Maiden right away. There's no mention of Qrow at that point cause it had already been brought up.

Main point though, not other matters. I'll catch the episode again tomorrow but I don't remember Salem cutting off Lionheart at any given point, and while there is pure fear its all coming from Lionheart with Salem just nudging it along at the end. And at the same time that Salem does threaten Lionheart she also brings up all that he's done for her in the sense that she is thankful for it.

Yes Salem threatens Leo...because that is the best way to control him (until the point comes via plot for him to resist that) and Salem uses it deftly. She doesn't browbeat Leo with his place in her schemes until he steps outside his bounds and once she has...well the call ends actually. Its a pointed and visceral lesson because all the subtle and manipulative work happened before RWBY began (more than likely). Salem doesn't need to manipulate Leo here, just remind him that he is being manipulated and even then its carrot/stick.

Let’s look at Sienna Khan

Spoiler: V5E2 Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

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In this scene Adam is showing how someone who knows he has all the cards exercises power in a way that everyone knows is.

We know from how things end Adam is planning a coup, yet he never threatens Sienna or tries to force his views on her. He patiently presents his case to her for what he wants to do, while she gets aggravated more and more by the minute.

To be fair her ideas are all relatively sane, if not actually reasonable, next to Adam’s for what the Faunus are to do.

Sienna says that the Faunus shouldn’t work with humans they know nothing about to achieve their goals, which to Sienna is apparently Faunus equality of some sort. Sienna doesn’t see throwing the world into Chaos, and starting an all out war against the humans to be a good idea.

One can, and Zodi did sort of, point out that Sienna’s ideas are actually contradictory. Sienna thinks she can achieve Faunus equality through violence. She apparently wants humans to fear the Faunus. Yet the idea that violence and fear will lead to peace and equality seems oxymoronic. Also, Sienna’s willingness to commit violence but not “start a war” seems like confusing difference in scale.

Adam ideas are much purer and easier to understand. Adam wants fight and win a war against the humans so the Faunus can take over. Adam even offers to allow Hazel to explain Salem’s goals (unfortunately, Sienna is more interested in debating with Adam so we never actually hear what Salem’s group goals actually are!).

But Adam goes through all that time explaining his ideology, and when the time comes for the coup, Adam doesn’t command anyone. Sienna watches her soldiers turn against her as she orders Adam taken prisoner. Adam is now in full control but he still takes no action against Sienna. Not until Sienna tells Adam that she isn’t going to fall in line, does he kill her, and instead of gloating, merely tells the soldiers to spread the lie Sienna was killed by a human.

Those are the actions of someone who doesn’t feel the need for bluster, or anger, or apology. This is how Salem ought to be acting.

Spoiler: Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

Show

Alright, I'm going to open with one incredibly important point that is relevant before discussing this further. That being Salem and Adam are trying to accomplish two very different goals in their respective scenes and thus really aren't comparable to one another. Salem is receiving a report, reminding a pawn of her authority, and giving out her orders. Adam is planning a bloody coup and its obvious that this is the intent the entire time. Its easy to say that Adam doesn't lose his cool or bluster and the like or that he's even subtle and manipulative but the fact is the former won't happen and the latter is outright untrue.

He's not there to try and persuade Sienna Khan over to his side, he's there to murder her and assume control of the White Fang. He doesn't need to persuade Sienna to his way of thinking or manipulate her into making the choices that he needs made. He isn't trying to ensure Sienna does as he asks/commands. In fact his attempts to 'persuade' Sienna are torn down at every junction by Sienna for the bull-crap that they are.

Adam does want to wage a war against humanity and enslave them...and Sienna points out how stupid that is. And she's right. Nor are Sienna's goal particularly contradictory or difficult to follow...they've just fallen out of favor with the White Fang for Adam's more bullheaded (and foolish) views.

So yeah..he is cool and collected, but that's because he's already made up his mind about what he's going to do before he even entered the room. His decision to overthrow Sienna isn't spur of the moment or anything, he's just following through on a course of action he already made up his mind on. A course of action that could very well lose him the very support he somewhat acknowledges he needs for his genocidal plans.

Now...if Adam were actually attempting to manipulate or convince Sienna? I might agree, but that simply isn't the case.

For the record I think both scenes convey what they're supposed to do and do it well..but the idea that Adam comes off as cool and collected compared to Salem is just foreign to me.

[Anyr]

Spoiler: Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

Show

Alright, I'm going to open with one incredibly important point that is relevant before discussing this further. That being Salem and Adam are trying to accomplish two very different goals in their respective scenes and thus really aren't comparable to one another. Salem is receiving a report, reminding a pawn of her authority, and giving out her orders. Adam is planning a bloody coup and its obvious that this is the intent the entire time. Its easy to say that Adam doesn't lose his cool or bluster and the like or that he's even subtle and manipulative but the fact is the former won't happen and the latter is outright untrue.

He's not there to try and persuade Sienna Khan over to his side, he's there to murder her and assume control of the White Fang. He doesn't need to persuade Sienna to his way of thinking or manipulate her into making the choices that he needs made. He isn't trying to ensure Sienna does as he asks/commands. In fact his attempts to 'persuade' Sienna are torn down at every junction by Sienna for the bull-crap that they are.

Adam does want to wage a war against humanity and enslave them...and Sienna points out how stupid that is. And she's right. Nor are Sienna's goal particularly contradictory or difficult to follow...they've just fallen out of favor with the White Fang for Adam's more bullheaded (and foolish) views.

So yeah..he is cool and collected, but that's because he's already made up his mind about what he's going to do before he even entered the room. His decision to overthrow Sienna isn't spur of the moment or anything, he's just following through on a course of action he already made up his mind on. A course of action that could very well lose him the very support he somewhat acknowledges he needs for his genocidal plans.

Now...if Adam were actually attempting to manipulate or convince Sienna? I might agree, but that simply isn't the case.

Spoiler: V05E02

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Agreed. This becomes easier to see when we compare Adam to Hazel: The one who really is there to convince Sienna. Hazel honestly thought that he was attending a diplomatic meeting. He tries his best to build common ground, and earn Sienna's respect. Next to his genuine efforts, Adam's words just seem like arrogant posturing: Because that's exactly what they are.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: Ditto

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{snip}

All spoilers must be labelled in this thread with the most recent episode discussed, saying "Ditto" is not sufficient.

All spoiler boxes which are not actual spoilers must still be labelled, just indicate that it's not a spoiler and the reason you used the box (e.g. oversized image).

[Rater202]

Spoiler: V5E2

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Gotta wait a week before team RNGR reacts to Oscar's bomb drop.

Adam is an ass, as usual.

And I can't tell if Raven capturing Weiss is a case of team RWBY's reunion being delayed(No RW reunion in Haven) or speeding it up (WY Reunion when Yang catches up with Raven.)

I liked Cinder better when she was mute and crippled, and... she's already one of the only people in the World with honest to God Magic and she still wants more power. Per the The Four Maidens, it was the Wizard's own magic that he gave the Maidens.

Meaning that there's no reason why one person can't be more than one Maiden.

Meaning that Cinder might be after all the Maiden's powers.

And a man who works with terrorists, a psychopath, a jerk, other terrorists who are also bitches for no reason, and the woman who seems to ebe respodible for the soulless monsters that feed on negativity and murder the hell out of people for no reason other than they're there doesn't like needless death. Something tells me that he missed a memo somewhere.

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: V5C2

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Minor correction, but Lionheart starts to tell Salem that she needs to go get the Spring Maiden right away. There's no mention of Qrow at that point cause it had already been brought up.

Spoiler: V5E2

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Look again. Salem cuts Lionheart off while he tries to bring up Qrow distrusts him. I was playing the scene (3:35-3:45 is the segment).

Spoiler: V5C2 Adam Taurus x Sienna Khan

Show

Alright, I'm going to open with one incredibly important point that is relevant before discussing this further. That being Salem and Adam are trying to accomplish two very different goals in their respective scenes and thus really aren't comparable to one another. Salem is receiving a report, reminding a pawn of her authority, and giving out her orders. Adam is planning a bloody coup and its obvious that this is the intent the entire time. Its easy to say that Adam doesn't lose his cool or bluster and the like or that he's even subtle and manipulative but the fact is the former won't happen and the latter is outright untrue.

Spoiler: V5C2

Show

The content of what they are doing doesn’t really matter. I’m talking about how the two project power. We already suspect Lionheart is going to turn on Salem from the scene. Why? Because she is all stick and no carrot here, he’s being cut off when he’s trying to be helpful, and Salem is threatening him physically suggesting she has no other hold on him.

Lionheart is not acting like someone with any sort of loyalty, he’s acting like someone scared out of his mind.

Salem is better when she is persuasive and manipulative, but she’s also better when she is projecting the depth and extent her power runs. Salem’s heavy-handed threat Lionheart in the scene suggests her control is limited.

I don’t have much confidence in how she is going to get either Lionheart or Raven to side with her in a pinch.

Adam, in contrast, acts like he is in full control of the room the entire time (because he is), while he lets Sienna be the one to get angry. In the end, it appears she is putting the noose around her own neck. I believe Adam has full control over the White Fang. I think Salem’s followers all have their own agenda and reasons for following her that doesn’t completely coincide with her use for them.

As far as whose most persuasive, well Hazel acts like he has this fantastic plan and argument that would have won Sienna over and potentially told us a lot what Salem’s agenda really is. However, no one is actually doing a lot of persuading here.

Lionheart was already scared out of his mind and he just goes from being hysterical to more broken. Salem doesn’t do any favors for herself here. If Lionheart has to be constantly broken to be kept in line, he isn’t a whole lot of use.

Adam, in contrast, goes in one scene from #2 to #1. He gets exactly what he wants out of things.

Are the two trying to accomplish the same thing? No. But one projects power and the other doesn’t.

[Ramza00]

Vol 5 Chapter 3 Unforeseen Complications is now out on RT's website for subscribers

http://roosterteeth.com/episode/rwby-volume-5-3-g4ogoh4

[Lethologica]

What's the week-later cutoff for spoilers this season? Presumably it's not after the subscriber release on Saturday. So is it the free RT release on Tuesday or the Youtube release on the following Saturday?

Spoiler: v5c2

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I sure hope cRWBY stops playing coy with the silver eyes power soon. It's messing with Ruby's character development and Cinder's character development and the layers of any upcoming conflict between the two, and it bugs the hell out of me. Salem refusing again
to explain what she means by Cinder having a weakness to Ruby is just the most recent manifestation of this problem. They don't have to explain everything about the silver eyes to provide a foundation that can be built on, but as of now they're too far in the other direction.