RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[LaZodiac]

I sort of ignored it because I was tired from work but concerning the "RWBY is for childs" thing, I only bring that up because it's a defense people used for the show back in the earlier seasons, when I questioned why it was ignoring the implications of it's world (it's basically a quasi post apocolypse situation, but no one really acts like this at all, for example).

[Reddish Mage]

I sort of ignored it because I was tired from work but concerning the "RWBY is for childs" thing, I only bring that up because it's a defense people used for the show back in the earlier seasons, when I questioned why it was ignoring the implications of it's world (it's basically a quasi post apocolypse situation, but no one really acts like this at all, for example).

I don’t quite understand your “implications of the world.” The introduction gives us a full story that the people forgot “we are but remnants” and basically believe they are living in “free world” golden age. They fought back the darkness long ago.

The narrator, who we now know is Salem, also threatens that “darkness will return.”

No one (except Ironwood who is shouting about it and the rest of Ozpin’s group, who is trying to keep it secret) understands quite how hostile the world they live in is.

Its worth rewatching

Spoiler: Episode 1 YouTube video

Show

And Here’s the transcript:

Spoiler: Transcript

Show

Legends. Stories scattered through time. Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that we are remnants, byproducts, of a forgotten past.

The gems in the image glow green and fade to show simple pictures of a man rising from the earth before being surrounded by creatures, barely held back by warriors.

Narrator: Man, born from dust, was strong, wise, and resourceful, but he was born into an unforgiving world. An inevitable darkness — creatures of destruction — the creatures of Grimm - set their sights on man and all of his creations. These forces clashed, and it seemed the darkness was intent on returning man's brief existence to the void.

Black sets in, then suddenly lessens as a light grows brighter and brighter until a gem rises from it and lowers itself into the hands of man.

Narrator: However, even the smallest spark of hope is enough to ignite change, and in time, man's passion, resourcefulness, and ingenuity led them to the tools that would help even the odds. This power was appropriately named "Dust".

The scene zooms out to show men shooting lightning, raising swords, and aiming rifles at the retreating beasts as a castle appears behind them.

Narrator: Nature's wrath in hand, man lit their way through the darkness, and in the shadow's absence came strength, civilization, and most importantly, life.

The castle zooms out to show a map of Remnant, which houses other buildings until they disappear in flashes of white and the map is lowered to show the scattered moon over a city at night.

Narrator: But even the most brilliant lights eventually flicker and die. And when they are gone... darkness will return.

Roman Torchwick and four of his henchmen head down an alley from the shadows. They stop behind Roman, who reignites his cigar without touching it and grins before walking down the road, frightening nearby citizens as they make their way towards the shop From Dust Till Dawn.

Narrator: So you may prepare your guardians, build your monuments to a so-called "free world", but take heed... there will be no victory in strength.

[LaZodiac]

I don’t quite understand your “implications of the world.” The introduction gives us a full story that the people forgot “we are but remnants” and basically believe they are living in “free world” golden age. They fought back the darkness long ago.

The narrator, who we now know is Salem, also threatens that “darkness will return.”

No one (except Ironwood who is shouting about it and the rest of Ozpin’s group, who is trying to keep it secret) understands quite how hostile the world they live in is.

Its worth rewatching

Spoiler: Episode 1 YouTube video

Show

And Here’s the transcript:

Spoiler: Transcript

Show

Legends. Stories scattered through time. Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that we are remnants, byproducts, of a forgotten past.

The gems in the image glow green and fade to show simple pictures of a man rising from the earth before being surrounded by creatures, barely held back by warriors.

Narrator: Man, born from dust, was strong, wise, and resourceful, but he was born into an unforgiving world. An inevitable darkness — creatures of destruction — the creatures of Grimm - set their sights on man and all of his creations. These forces clashed, and it seemed the darkness was intent on returning man's brief existence to the void.

Black sets in, then suddenly lessens as a light grows brighter and brighter until a gem rises from it and lowers itself into the hands of man.

Narrator: However, even the smallest spark of hope is enough to ignite change, and in time, man's passion, resourcefulness, and ingenuity led them to the tools that would help even the odds. This power was appropriately named "Dust".

The scene zooms out to show men shooting lightning, raising swords, and aiming rifles at the retreating beasts as a castle appears behind them.

Narrator: Nature's wrath in hand, man lit their way through the darkness, and in the shadow's absence came strength, civilization, and most importantly, life.

The castle zooms out to show a map of Remnant, which houses other buildings until they disappear in flashes of white and the map is lowered to show the scattered moon over a city at night.

Narrator: But even the most brilliant lights eventually flicker and die. And when they are gone... darkness will return.

Roman Torchwick and four of his henchmen head down an alley from the shadows. They stop behind Roman, who reignites his cigar without touching it and grins before walking down the road, frightening nearby citizens as they make their way towards the shop From Dust Till Dawn.

Narrator: So you may prepare your guardians, build your monuments to a so-called "free world", but take heed... there will be no victory in strength.

I remember all that. What I mean is that...I find that REALLY hard to actually believe. Like, it feels like it stretches disbelief that they live in this society where you can't really go outside because the monsters will get you, and they're all happy and like "oh man everything is perfect and good". Beacon has an entire chunk of it cordoned off because they tried to make another part of the city and it immediately went bad and many people died.

That being said, I feel like...making it more clear that everyone is aware that it's "actually really bad" but tries to ignore it would of been better. Since then it would tie into Cinder's, bland as it may be, vague mysterious evil plan, which was to force people to confront that this is an end of world scenario and the world is actually bad. That'd make it work better, I think.

[Forum Explorer]

I remember all that. What I mean is that...I find that REALLY hard to actually believe. Like, it feels like it stretches disbelief that they live in this society where you can't really go outside because the monsters will get you, and they're all happy and like "oh man everything is perfect and good". Beacon has an entire chunk of it cordoned off because they tried to make another part of the city and it immediately went bad and many people died.

That being said, I feel like...making it more clear that everyone is aware that it's "actually really bad" but tries to ignore it would of been better. Since then it would tie into Cinder's, bland as it may be, vague mysterious evil plan, which was to force people to confront that this is an end of world scenario and the world is actually bad. That'd make it work better, I think.

Humans are adaptable and really good at ignoring problems if those problems seem to be 'solved'. There's a funny little comic called the Door In The Kitchen, that deals with that in what I feel is a realistic way.

But they could have handled it better. Maybe have a few characters who aren't from the city, and talk about how much more dangerous things are out there. Basically, tell us Ren and Nora's backstory a lot earlier, even if they don't go into detail. Try harder in showing that while the cities are 'safe places' and thus people born and raised in the city are much more relaxed, that outside the cities things are a lot more tense and harsh.


Speaking of happy endings though, I don't think Juane deserves one. Not yet, anyways. I certainly don't think Pyyrha deserved one. Juane has a lot of growth to do still, growth that almost requires Pyyrha to die/be crippled. And said death or crippling basically precludes Pyyrha from having a happy ending.

[Lethologica]

Underrated factor: in this world, humans are naturally selected to be happy and optimistic, regardless of whether it's the most accurate assessment of their circumstances.

Recall, when Pyrrha was alive Cinder didn’t even notice Ruby (or even care about RWBY and the others). Now Cinder is obsessed with Ruby with a singular passion and Salem’s crew talks about “the silver eyed girl” as their main threat.

Tangentially related, this also marks the point at which proficiency with the conventional tools of modern society (Dust, Aura, Semblance) is decisively shown to be insufficient to face the villainous threat. Not that Pyrrha is the most proficient conventional fighter in the world, but that is her position in the narrative. Mythic, primeval forces are in motion, and it will take forces of a similar order to beat them back.

[The Fury]

Oh, as if that would decrease her romantic opportunities.

To me, Ruby's the most likely ace and Bumblebee's the most likely gay pairing. But we'll see.

I'd have to agree on the Bumblebee thing. Yang's heart-to-heart "take care of yourself, Blake," moment, offering to dance with her, and the fact that she seemed especially heartbroken about her leaving without explaining at the end of Volume 3 make me think that Yang's into Blake. I'm not so sure if Blake's all that into Yang... though she did take her up on that dance.

[LaZodiac]

Underrated factor: in this world, humans are naturally selected to be happy and optimistic, regardless of whether it's the most accurate assessment of their circumstances.


Tangentially related, this also marks the point at which proficiency with the conventional tools of modern society (Dust, Aura, Semblance) is decisively shown to be insufficient to face the villainous threat. Not that Pyrrha is the most proficient conventional fighter in the world, but that is her position in the narrative. Mythic, primeval forces are in motion, and it will take forces of a similar order to beat them back.

I still contest that if Pyrrha kept her shield Cinder would of been able to do her trick the way she did. It still feels like Pyrrh had the upper hand for most of that fight.

I'd have to agree on the Bumblebee thing. Yang's heart-to-heart "take care of yourself, Blake," moment, offering to dance with her, and the fact that she seemed especially heartbroken about her leaving without explaining at the end of Volume 3 make me think that Yang's into Blake. I'm not so sure if Blake's all that into Yang... though she did take her up on that dance.

Blake has shown that her standards are incredibly low after (and because of) her last break up, so I think Yang has a chance. It just means getting rid of Wukong.

[Forum Explorer]

Underrated factor: in this world, humans are naturally selected to be happy and optimistic, regardless of whether it's the most accurate assessment of their circumstances.

I know you're joking, but this would hilariously be true. If you are prone to depression and melancholy, you attract Grim. Therefore you are less likely to survive, and thus reproduce. And vice versa. Since Grim have apparently existed as long as humans have, there actually would be a noticeable effect due to this.

[LaZodiac]

I know you're joking, but this would hilariously be true. If you are prone to depression and melancholy, you attract Grim. Therefore you are less likely to survive, and thus reproduce. And vice versa. Since Grim have apparently existed as long as humans have, there actually would be a noticeable effect due to this.

Welcome to Unfortunate Implications, I'm your host Zodi and today we've found this little number. It's entirely possible that people who are chronically depressed are so dangerous in this universe that they no longer exist, either through natural selection enforced by horrible monsters destroying the village or town, or through genuine culling of the population by psychotics like Ironwood.

This is one of those things where as a writer you just have to either think of a reasonable solution, change your story, or just accept it. The Endor holocaust because of the logistics of space debris doesn't happen because "it just doesn't okay it's stupid you're stupid stories can accept some level of unreality" and that's okay.

[Ramza00]

LaZodiac, I have a question for you, it is not really about RWBY but I am bringing this up for the theme intersections and my thoughts were triggered by RWBY conversations and I want other people to participate.

1st) LaZodiac have you seen HBO's WestWorld?

Edit: If you have not watch WestWorld do not do #2 until you watch it!!!

2nd) If you have seen WestWorld, I am curious about your opinion ^{(but also other people reading this)} on this 14 min video which talks about WestWorld and its themes but also how you tell a story.

Westworld's Deep Reading: How Stories Shape Us^{14 mins length}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYtFYowC7LU

I ask you these two question for you are a storyteller LaZodiac, but also you and me both have difference of opinions with storytelling even though we agree on a lot.

[The Fury]

Blake has shown that her standards are incredibly low after (and because of) her last break up, so I think Yang has a chance. It just means getting rid of Wukong.

Hey, yeah, I'd agree that Blake could do and has done a lot worse than Yang. It's just not super clear what Blake's preferences are. At this point whether she'd even be romantically interested in someone of the same gender as her, seems almost as likely as not.

Welcome to Unfortunate Implications, I'm your host Zodi and today we've found this little number. It's entirely possible that people who are chronically depressed are so dangerous in this universe that they no longer exist, either through natural selection enforced by horrible monsters destroying the village or town, or through genuine culling of the population by psychotics like Ironwood.

This is one of those things where as a writer you just have to either think of a reasonable solution, change your story, or just accept it. The Endor holocaust because of the logistics of space debris doesn't happen because "it just doesn't okay it's stupid you're stupid stories can accept some level of unreality" and that's okay.

Alternatively, if that's too extreme for you, All prepackaged food contains antidepressants. Because drugging your populace without their knowledge or consent for the survival of humanity is the awesome thing to do!

[Ramza00]

Alternatively, if that's too extreme for you, All prepackaged food contains antidepressants. Because drugging your populace without their knowledge or consent for the survival of humanity is the awesome thing to do!

I think the Beacon / Vale model (who knows about the other kingdoms) is not force fed antidepressants but is instead Shopping and Coffee / CFVY.





Put another way Bread and Circuses!

[LaZodiac]

LaZodiac, I have a question for you, it is not really about RWBY but I am bringing this up for the theme intersections and my thoughts were triggered by RWBY conversations and I want other people to participate.

1st) LaZodiac have you seen HBO's WestWorld?

2nd) If you have seen WestWorld, I am curious about your opinion ^{(but also other people reading this)} on this 14 min video which talks about WestWorld and its themes but also how you tell a story.

Westworld's Deep Reading: How Stories Shape Us^{14 mins length}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYtFYowC7LU

I ask you these two question for you are a storyteller LaZodiac, but also you and me both have difference of opinions with storytelling even though we agree on a lot.

Never seen it, intend to at sooome point when I'm able to exist as a human again.

Looking at the video, it's...correct? I don't really know what you're asking.

Hey, yeah, I'd agree that Blake could do and has done a lot worse than Yang. It's just not super clear what Blake's preferences are. At this point whether she'd even be romantically interested in someone of the same gender as her, seems almost as likely as not.

Alternatively, if that's too extreme for you, All prepackaged food contains antidepressants. Because drugging your populace without their knowledge or consent for the survival of humanity is the awesome thing to do!

That feels like a total Ironwood move.

And yeah my point there was more "Blake's type is anyone who has even a modicum of self respect. Yang's Actually Good, she'll get her chance."

[Ramza00]

Never seen it, intend to at sooome point when I'm able to exist as a human again.

Looking at the video, it's...correct? I don't really know what you're asking.

NOOOOO!!!!

Do not watch the video, till you watch all 10 hours of WestWorld. And you should watch WestWorld, it is really good! I am trying to decide if you would give it a 88 out of a 100, a 95 out of a 100, or a 99 out of a 100. But yeah sorry moneys and sickness troubles (I have them as well) but WestWorld is pure joy!

And once you have watched WestWorld, then and only then watch the 14 minute video about storytelling.

[LaZodiac]

NOOOOO!!!!

Do not watch the video, till you watch all 10 hours of WestWorld. And you should watch WestWorld, it is really good! I am trying to decide if you would give it a 88 out of a 100, a 95 out of a 100, or a 99 out of a 100. But yeah sorry moneys and sickness troubles (I have them as well) but WestWorld is pure joy!

And once you have watched WestWorld, then and only then watch the 14 minute video about storytelling.

I've literally already forgotten any spoilers it would of given me. I have Zero Context for it, so it's fine. I'll look into West World and it'll be fresh impressions, don't worry.

I will probably throw my thoughts about it out on the tweeter.

[Ramza00]

I've literally already forgotten any spoilers it would of given me. I have Zero Context for it, so it's fine. I'll look into West World and it'll be fresh impressions, don't worry.

I will probably throw my thoughts about it out on the tweeter.

Ohh shiney, please private message me your twitter account, so I can follow you. I need a better mixture of things to follow besides News (and some politics) and cute Doggies.

[Reddish Mage]

I remember all that. What I mean is that...I find that REALLY hard to actually believe. Like, it feels like it stretches disbelief that they live in this society where you can't really go outside because the monsters will get you, and they're all happy and like "oh man everything is perfect and good". Beacon has an entire chunk of it cordoned off because they tried to make another part of the city and it immediately went bad and many people died.

That being said, I feel like...making it more clear that everyone is aware that it's "actually really bad" but tries to ignore it would of been better. Since then it would tie into Cinder's, bland as it may be, vague mysterious evil plan, which was to force people to confront that this is an end of world scenario and the world is actually bad. That'd make it work better, I think.

Its quite often in the playground that I hear people suggest cluttering up a narrative with explanations to make fantasy stories more “realistic” or “logical.” You are not most people, but I think this particular idea would benefit from the grinder of a checklist as to whether ideas to give narratives better scientific or logical foundations is really making things better.

I suggest the following test before seeing whether a narrative would be improved:

1. How in-your-face is the deviation from logic and reasonableness?

In a world full of fantastic creatures, physics defying heroes, and honest-to-goodness magic, expecting explanations for people’s alleged craziness in acting like things are fine when grimm are a chronic problem in the background doesn’t so bad.

2. Are there explanations already present?

Actually, yes. The introduction gave a narrative of how the grimm were beaten back, kingdoms were established, and everyone within the kingdoms thought “happy days are here forever.”

Also there are plenty of signs all is not well and there’s lots wrong underneath the surface. Hunters and Huntresses are there to deal with the grimm threat after all.

I could go episode after episode, and most of the episodes in Vol 1 and 2 foreshadow what was upcoming. White Fang violence rising. Ozpin reading the message from Qrow, Ozpin speaking (constantly by volume 2) about these happy days are about to end. Ironwood arriving sounding the alarm. RWBY playing Remnant the boardgame, showing how Grimm get unleashed during war. Talk of travel getting more difficult between Kingdoms...the list just goes on and on

3. What is the narrative effect on the additional change.

In this case, it would be huge. RWBY would more closely resemble “Attack on Titan” and a lot of the cheerfulness of the first two seasons would have never happened. The fix suggested regarding Renora’s background happening earlier would have meant the already backstory heavy first two volumes get even more weighed down.

I really don’t see how patching in more grimmdark adds much, and we do get the grimm attacks of Mountain Glenn and of child Yang/Ruby (also we know Ruby’s mom died).

0. Is this even really something unreasonable?

In this case no. Grimm haunts humans of Remnant much like disease haunts us, perpetually and as part of the essential human condition. There is literally no reason why the residents of Vale should be cowering in their home, or even register the slightest degree of stress at the state of the world and the prospect of grimm lurking outside the Kingdoms. To them, grimm are as much a constant as the climate (unless my theory of why Salem wants the maiden powers holds up).

If they are living in an “era of peace” as Ruby puts it, they should be enjoying their peace and prosperity, and regard grimm attacks much like we think of the prospect of natural disasters.

The only things to suggest something darker going on is the narration and lots of foreshadowing. Otherwise we would not be tipped off that the grimm were anything but a constant nuisance.

Welcome to Unfortunate Implications, I'm your host Zodi and today we've found this little number. It's entirely possible that people who are chronically depressed are so dangerous in this universe that they no longer exist, either through natural selection enforced by horrible monsters destroying the village or town, or through genuine culling of the population by psychotics like Ironwood.

This is one of those things where as a writer you just have to either think of a reasonable solution, change your story, or just accept it.

Clearly, you are on to something that one can take implications too far. Yes, the notion that depression isn’t an issue in Remnant, or that Remnant’s humans have fundamentally different psychology is problematic on many levels.

What you are doing isn’t really taking a mere implication. You are really arguing with the stated and consistently reinforced premise of present-day Remnant and by implication RWBY, that it was a golden era that has forgotten the dark past of the grimm.

This premise could not have been stated clearer and was constantly reinforced, not only by the heroes mood, but also how they slayed the normal grimm of the Forest like it was no problem. We only gradually got to see darker grimm as Vol 2 rolled out and when grimm finally DID get inside the Kingdom at the end of Vol 2, it was treated as an almost unthinkable disaster even though the grimm were quickly beaten back.

There are times when you have great critical insights into RWBY. There are times when any critic sheds more light on the object of their criticism precisely because it is a harsher lens that reveals all the flaws. This, however, is not one of those times.

The citizens of Vale lived in an unprecedented era of peace and prosperity and had ample reason to think life was good. To say otherwise simply because grimm existed in the world is doing more than being critical of RWBY, it is imposing real world expectations on people living in a clearly different environment.

[Ramza00]

One thing you have to remember is that there seems to be peace for 80 years between the nations (I am recalling the color speech from Ozpin, if I am wrong on the dates please gently correct me for I do not want to rewatch the color speech).

After the Great War 80 years ago, the Faunus were given the island of Menagerie and all the Faunus were forced there. Then they fought a smaller and more localized war called the Faunus Right Revolution that allowed the Faunus to live in the 4 kingdoms but they were treated as 2nd class citizens, the Faunus Right Revolution was a 3 year conflict.

Then the White Fang happened after the FRR and it seems to be at least 15 years old based off Blake being "born into it", but only in the last 5 years did the White Fang turned selectively violent, not targeting all of society but only specific individuals that were corrupt and preyed on the Faunus.

-----

My point is that Grimn inspired systematic attacks on the kingdom being an existential threat seems like stuff from long ago and is out of the "living memory" of the youngest and 2nd youngest generation. It is like talking to your parents about antibiotics and world war in today society, yet if you ask your grandparents about this they can tell you how big of a deal vaccines were and the existential type conflicts that used to happen with WW1, WW2, and the "Red Scare" of the 50s and so on.

That is because "cultural institutions" and "superstructure institutions" had been created that seem to create a "Veil" of Safety and as long as you are in the 4 major kingdoms you can just pretend the things outside the veil does not exist for it is not something you sensory and consciously interact with on a day to day level.

I would argue the actual implementation of this could be better in Vol 4, but remember Ruby and RJNR and the map and she had no clue how big the continent is. (Skip to 1:30)



Well this is bad analysis for we can't be certain on these numbers and they were made absent mindedly. But "Ruby only lived in a small area" and she thought it took 2 weeks maybe 3 to travel a continent. Well lets just say offhand that means only 200 to 400 miles of civilization per kingdom. Aka we are talking something from half the size of Kansas if we are talking a 200 mile square, or Kansas plus Nebraska but smaller than Texas if we are doing a 400 mile square. This would also be much smaller than Spain, France, and Germany and only a little bigger than Ireland if a country is a 200 mile square.

My point with the little RWBY history lecture is both culturally people forgot great wars, and remember the wars bring the Grimm and make them far more dangerous, and also people do not have a "cultural" understanding of how big the world is and they only know their 4 or so nations, and even then people vastly underestimate how much the biggest nation has under safe borders and how much is wilderness.

[Lethologica]

I still contest that if Pyrrha kept her shield Cinder would of been able to do her trick the way she did. It still feels like Pyrrh had the upper hand for most of that fight.

I agree about the shield throw, but if it hadn't been that, it would have been something else. Throughout that fight, Pyrrha does things that would lead to Game Over for Cinder under normal circumstances (which is where any appearance of having the upper hand comes from), but Cinder repeatedly no-sells them and counters with attacks that would cripple Pyrrha if they landed. Pyrrha is systematically rendered helpless, not because she's unable to do anything, but because nothing she does is going to work.

Welcome to Unfortunate Implications, I'm your host Zodi and today we've found this little number. It's entirely possible that people who are chronically depressed are so dangerous in this universe that they no longer exist, either through natural selection enforced by horrible monsters destroying the village or town, or through genuine culling of the population by psychotics like Ironwood.

This is one of those things where as a writer you just have to either think of a reasonable solution, change your story, or just accept it. The Endor holocaust because of the logistics of space debris doesn't happen because "it just doesn't okay it's stupid you're stupid stories can accept some level of unreality" and that's okay.

This one is a lot more reasonable than the Endor Holocaust, honestly. EH exploits selective acceptance of on-screen evidence in an attempt to turn a visual inconsistency with few consequences into a physical inconsistency that should have devastating consequences.

We do have hints that this isn't what normally happens in Remnant. The ideologies of the Great War were tied to acceptance or suppression of emotion and expression--if not in the immediate conflict, then in the historiography that came afterwards. For the latter faction, discrimination against the depressed may well have been a feature of their worldview. But we know that the former view prevailed in the war, and thus in much of the world (if perhaps not all of it). Which isn't to say that they're doing everything right--Ozpin seems to have employed a lot of the Men In Black approach to social well-being.

But yeah, this is the sort of implication I would expect the series to explore more fully if it started from a more mature base. (Or maybe I'm being too pessimistic and it will do so in the future.)

[Rater202]

So... are we going to start a new thread?

Because we're five pages over the limit.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don’t see how CFVY has ever been depicted as average. Unlike other minor teams FNKY or NDGO or eve SSSN, CFVY comes in and blows through things like a hot knife. I also think they showed how tough they were in the round against emerald and mercury, and Velvet has an absurdly versatile combat style and semblance.

I get what your saying, if you mean CFVY really is a meaningless inclusion that had no place to even be inserted into the story.

CFVY was never meant to be viewed as 'average' though RWBY didn't do the best job of telling (in the show) why they shouldn't be. I mean you can tell they were hot stuff in Beacon cause of what you said Reddish Mage, but you never find out..why they were supposed to be hot stuff compared to world-reowned Pyrrha.

And the answer is 'CFVY was first introduced to show older students in action as an attempt to create scale for what RWBY/RNJR have ahead of them'. That's right from the RT mouth on that one, CFVY is meant to show another level of competence that the main characters have to achieve on their way being as talented as actual Huntsmen and Huntresses like Glynda, Qrow, Port, Oobleck, and so on.

While I like the attempt, I also feel like it didn't do the best job in execution because I had no idea CFVY was even in a different grade than RWBY/JNPR until I listened to the creator commentary on the DVD. They just...seemed to show up, wreck ****, and then disappear until later in V. 3 to show that Emerald and Mercury are not students and are above their level in skill.

Depression in Remnant: Thing is..I imagine horribly unhappy people are likely only a problem outside of the Kingdoms. We already know from the WoR: Grimm that the really dangerous Grimm don't just zerg-rush human settlements, especially not large ones because they know and have experienced how well guarded they are and have evolved a sense of self-preservation over time. So it takes a HUGE spike of concentrated negative emotion to get Grimm attention and compel them to attack a Kingdom because they sense a weakness that can be exploited. Its only young and relatively easy to deal with Grim that would rush a kingdom or large town without thinking, and we've seen soldiers deal with them capably enough.

Once you get outside the kingdoms though? Where natural defenses aren't as good and your defenses aren't as solid? Yeah, I can imagine that something like...an angry town hall meeting could pose more of an issue.

[The Fury]

So... are we going to start a new thread?

Because we're five pages over the limit.

Sure, I'll do it.

[Rawhide]

So... are we going to start a new thread?

Because we're five pages over the limit.

The limit's flexible, not hard and fast.

Soon. I've been holding off as I want to completely redo the opening post with updated information and I've been a bit busy to do it properly.

Sure, I'll do it.

Hold off please.

[The Fury]

Hold off please.

...I already did it. Sorry, I had no idea that I wasn't supposed to. I guess I'm forcing you to use your mod powers to lock or delete the thread. Sorry again, I honestly didn't know.

[LaZodiac]

There are times when you have great critical insights into RWBY. There are times when any critic sheds more light on the object of their criticism precisely because it is a harsher lens that reveals all the flaws. This, however, is not one of those times.

I feel like I should note that that was a bit. I don't really care about that and am perfectly find in handwaving it away, especially because as we've seen from Blake and Yang depressed people still exist. It was a joke. I'm fully on your side in that going too far into that sort of thing is really dumb. I still feel like it's worth bringing up because sometimes it can be ridiculous, but I'd never dock the show for it.

Example. Goofy is a dog and Pluto is also a dog, and there are regular animals in the Ducktales universe, which makes it clear that more than just birds are sentient. This has some startling implications that you should kind of think about, if only because it can lead to some fun thoughts. Now, when a show DOES think about these implications, sometimes it can be brilliant. Bojack Horseman for instance posits "what if animal, but human". In this world all animals are humanoid and human like, while still being animals. All animals. ALL. This has implications, and the show actually goes INTO it, because it wishes to, as partly a joke and partly due to the horror it would cause (there's an entire episode about the chicken industry, for instance).

But yeah no I'm not arguing this should be held against RWBY. I want the show to make it more clear that "this is the golden age where people think they're perfectly find but they aren't" and I think that's a fair criticism, that they didn't do too well at showing that. But I'm not going to yell at the show about "where are all the sad boys!"...I mean unless I want to see nice good crying sad boys for entertainment purposes.

[Reddish Mage]

My point with the little RWBY history lecture is both culturally people forgot great wars, and remember the wars bring the Grimm and make them far more dangerous, and also people do not have a "cultural" understanding of how big the world is and they only know their 4 or so nations, and even then people vastly underestimate how much the biggest nation has under safe borders and how much is wilderness.

Note that the history lesson comes relatively late in Vol 2. Prior to that history lesson (we already had plenty to give us the feel that people felt the world was at peace and simply not worried so much about the fact that the world is crawling with grimm.

We got it from the beginning narrative (which suggests the fear was gone for ages), from how the Beacon students are basically fearless, from the ordinariness of Vale life (not that we see much of it). From claims that the world was at peace or in an era of prosperity.

This one is a lot more reasonable than the Endor Holocaust, honestly. EH exploits selective acceptance of on-screen evidence in an attempt to turn a visual inconsistency with few consequences into a physical inconsistency that should have devastating consequences.

We do have hints that this isn't what normally happens in Remnant. The ideologies of the Great War were tied to acceptance or suppression of emotion and expression--if not in the immediate conflict, then in the historiography that came afterwards. For the latter faction, discrimination against the depressed may well have been a feature of their worldview. But we know that the former view prevailed in the war, and thus in much of the world (if perhaps not all of it).

But yeah, this is the sort of implication I would expect the series to explore more fully if it started from a more mature base. (Or maybe I'm being too pessimistic and it will do so in the future.)

I think the pointing out the problem of negative emotions in Remnant is marginally better than Endor Holocaust since negative emotions are canonically a major problem in Remnant. Still questions like "why aren't people prone to negative emotions killed" is taking your pet theory wayyyyy too far.

One can imagine a RWBY that is more of a mature psychological horror show than an American shounen. RWBY always did have a mainly adult audience anyway. However, RWBY was never meant for this sort of thing. Humans on Remnant are not the dark, fearful, xenophobic, fractious, miserable types of "Attack on Titan" or even shows like "The Gifted." Even as everything transpired, the kingdoms have not gone to war with each other and society seems to be holding together.

If anything, maybe there is something to the point that the people of Remnant are a little too positive and friendly, amid everything going on since Vol 3.

CFVY was never meant to be viewed as 'average' though RWBY didn't do the best job of telling (in the show) why they shouldn't be. I mean you can tell they were hot stuff in Beacon cause of what you said Reddish Mage, but you never find out..why they were supposed to be hot stuff compared to world-reowned Pyrrha.

And the answer is 'CFVY was first introduced to show older students in action as an attempt to create scale for what RWBY/RNJR have ahead of them'. That's right from the RT mouth on that one, CFVY is meant to show another level of competence that the main characters have to achieve on their way being as talented as actual Huntsmen and Huntresses like Glynda, Qrow, Port, Oobleck, and so on.

While I like the attempt, I also feel like it didn't do the best job in execution because I had no idea CFVY was even in a different grade than RWBY/JNPR until I listened to the creator commentary on the DVD.

I would agree it was a poor attempt with CFVY but not because CFVY were not introduced as older students right off the bat, they were.

We get introduced to CFVY as the "older students" back when RWBY was getting their first mission. CFVY was just getting back because they were finishing their senior student mission, which was much more dangerous). CFVY was exhausted by their mission because, according to Velvet, there was just so many grimm.

Then again, CFVY came out of nowhere at the time, and they weren't especially important to...well anything. I think the fact that you didn't notice they were older students plays to how extraneous CFVY was to the events of Vol 2.

Depression in Remnant: Thing is..I imagine horribly unhappy people are likely only a problem outside of the Kingdoms. We already know from the WoR: Grimm that the really dangerous Grimm don't just zerg-rush human settlements, especially not large ones because they know and have experienced how well guarded they are and have evolved a sense of self-preservation over time. So it takes a HUGE spike of concentrated negative emotion to get Grimm attention and compel them to attack a Kingdom because they sense a weakness that can be exploited. Its only young and relatively easy to deal with Grim that would rush a kingdom or large town without thinking, and we've seen soldiers deal with them capably enough.

Once you get outside the kingdoms though? Where natural defenses aren't as good and your defenses aren't as solid? Yeah, I can imagine that something like...an angry town hall meeting could pose more of an issue.

The thing is, for all the talk about negative emotion attracting grimm, there is no talk about controlling that emotion!

The people of Remnant are supposed to resemble us ordinary folk. They don't engage in monastic living or odd communes to control their emotions, they don't desperately avoid feeling because that is a good way to ward off grimm. These are interesting ideas for plotlines in RWBY fan-fiction, but the topic hasn't even been breached in the main story.

There is a good reason. If Remnant people did try to suppress emotion, we would be in a very different sort of series, one where none of the main characters of RWBY (who tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves) would be welcomed.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The thing is, for all the talk about negative emotion attracting grimm, there is no talk about controlling that emotion!

The people of Remnant are supposed to resemble us ordinary folk. They don't engage in monastic living or odd communes to control their emotions, they don't desperately avoid feeling because that is a good way to ward off grimm. These are interesting ideas for plotlines in RWBY fan-fiction, but the topic hasn't even been breached in the main story.

There is a good reason. If Remnant people did try to suppress emotion, we would be in a very different sort of series, one where none of the main characters of RWBY (who tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves) would be welcomed.

Well there was apparently some talk about controlling emotion...it just so happened to take place from the Kingdom with perhaps the least to fear from Grim, Atlas. Wasn't one of Atlas' stances for their aggression in the Great War the elimination of emotion/individuality?

I still maintain that this happened because someone screwed around with the relic at Atlas Academy, but that is just a theory.

[Ramza00]

I feel like I should note that that was a bit. I don't really care about that and am perfectly find in handwaving it away, especially because as we've seen from Blake and Yang depressed people still exist. It was a joke. I'm fully on your side in that going too far into that sort of thing is really dumb. I still feel like it's worth bringing up because sometimes it can be ridiculous, but I'd never dock the show for it.

Example. Goofy is a dog and Pluto is also a dog, and there are regular animals in the Ducktales universe, which makes it clear that more than just birds are sentient. This has some startling implications that you should kind of think about, if only because it can lead to some fun thoughts. Now, when a show DOES think about these implications, sometimes it can be brilliant. Bojack Horseman for instance posits "what if animal, but human". In this world all animals are humanoid and human like, while still being animals. All animals. ALL. This has implications, and the show actually goes INTO it, because it wishes to, as partly a joke and partly due to the horror it would cause (there's an entire episode about the chicken industry, for instance).

On the subject of implications...

So Zootopia has a fish market. Does that mean the predator mammals eat fish? Or does that mean that have another purpose for a fish market? Do the mammals in Zootopia keep fish as pets? We need to get to the bottom of this, what happens at the fish market in Disney's Zootopia?



Fresh Fish! We Catch Them You Buy Them!

[LaZodiac]

On the subject of implications...

So Zootopia has a fish market. Does that mean the predator mammals eat fish? Or does that mean that have another purpose for a fish market? Do the mammals in Zootopia keep fish as pets? We need to get to the bottom of this, what happens at the fish market in Disney's Zootopia?



Fresh Fish! We Catch Them You Buy Them!

Zootopia is explicitly mammal's only, and implicitly only land mammals. Fish aren't mammals and therefor are free game. I've always thought it was pretty overtly obvious that it's just land mammals. And if it does include sea mammals...well the fish thing still doesn't matter since fish are fish.

[Lethologica]

I think the pointing out the problem of negative emotions in Remnant is marginally better than Endor Holocaust since negative emotions are canonically a major problem in Remnant. Still questions like "why aren't people prone to negative emotions killed" is taking your pet theory wayyyyy too far.

That's not at all where I was going with it, so *shrug*.

Mostly I think that a lot of communities in Remnant (away from the biggest cities that have mostly eliminated Grimm from the social consciousness) would be very conscious about the implications of their emotions and have various approaches to social norms surrounding emotional management. Instead what we get is mostly people going about their lives without thinking about it, except once in a while someone says "If we keep this up we'll be drowning in Grimm."

Partly I think that the pre-Great War Atlas line about suppressing art and expression in order to prevent negative emotion is logically connected to suppressing negative emotion, period, which on a social level is likely to lead to some form of discrimination against people who display negative emotion (like, say, taking away their means of self-expression?). But this is only one way societies might respond to the fact of the Grimm.

Basically:

The thing is, for all the talk about negative emotion attracting grimm, there is no talk about controlling that emotion!

That, to me, is a missed opportunity. (And not one that requires a tone of psychological horror or monastic detachment, either.) Apart from native hostility to humanity, the central feature of the Grimm, our setting antagonists, is their attraction to negative emotions. As foes who physically attack society from the outside in, they reify the destructive impact of our worst selves, the doubts and fears and resentments and hatreds that eat people from the inside out. How different people and societies deal with that inescapable fact should be a major element of the story told in this setting. So far, it has had some plot significance--Ozpin worries about things that could cause panic in Vale, and Cinder and Raven incite panic to bring Grimm attacks. But to me, that's barely scraping the surface of this concept.