Turn Time Exploit (spoiler?)

[rosebud]

[Apologies if this was already stated. I couldn't find it via a quick search]

Can Parson play games with the battle by not ending his turn until a moment before dawn (or not ending it at all)?

We are told that Stanley's turn starts at dawn. And Ansom's turn starts when Stanley ends his turn.

So... since Stanley's turn starts at sunrise, Parson could possibly either effectively lock out Ansom completely (by ending his turn at a point which gives Ansom no time to act) or turn the battle into a real-time affair (since it would, by one interpretation of two separate rules, be the same turn for both parties). In either event, it gives Stanley's side a great advantage since they effectively control the time of the enemy's move and possibly its maximum duration

[Indon]

Can Parson play games with the battle by not ending his turn until a moment before dawn (or not ending it at all)?

Sadly, chances are good that sunset is caused by everyone _finishing_ their turns, and days are not a set length.

[Gez]

Sadly, chances are good that sunset is caused by everyone _finishing_ their turns, and days are not a set length.

Or that there is a timer that will end your turn for you if you take too long. Most turn-based games feature an "anti-filibustering measure" to prevent the players waiting for their turn to lose patience.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I don't think so... but then... what causes the ending of a turn? Ends your turn by volition ("I am finished, go ahead dear adversary")? by time limit (say, half a day) or does it end when you have moved/guardmoded all your units?

If it's the latter, one's turn (and hence the day) might last eternally, but will probably not mean that the turn lasts throughout the night untill the next dawn. As far as I know, nightfall only occurs when both sides have finished their turns and henceforth, there will be no progression or advantage in the campaign for either side when one of them starts to stall his own turns. You know, a piece has only so many movepoints to spend during a turn, and if the unit expended all of it, the unit is pretty much useless for the rest of the turn. Not a strategy at all imho.

simply said: I think the timeframe of each turn is fixed no matter how long one takes to complete it, the turn always starts and ends at the same time of the day, though the time in between may appear stretched beyond the normal progression of time due to stratagems, discussions etc.

[Flakey]

I think that you can end your turn early, but there is a timing mechanism to stop you prolonging it.

I think the day is a fixed length, and not influenced by how much time the players take. Mainly because this is only the "western conflict". It not reasonable that one battle on one part of the continent can dictate time to the rest of the world and thier battles.

[factotum]

Sadly, chances are good that sunset is caused by everyone _finishing_ their turns, and days are not a set length.

Comic #7 would seem to reinforce that opinion--over the course of a few panels, which can't possibly occupy more than a couple of minutes real time, we go from clear blue skies to sunset. By the time Jillian is sitting down to eat in the next strip, it's full dark.

[PlasticSoldier]

It not reasonable that one battle on one part of the continent can dictate time to the rest of the world and thier battles.

I don't think the rest of the world's battles have any effect on the GK battle mainly because were not seeing hours of the day where noone does anything as would happen if other people were moving.

[Gez]

I don't think so... but then... what causes the ending of a turn? Ends your turn by volition ("I am finished, go ahead dear adversary")? by time limit (say, half a day) or does it end when you have moved/guardmoded all your units?

The first two, with a bit of the third. Take Civilization, for example. Once you've moved all your units, you just have to hit "space" to end the turn, as it gets automatically selected; but you still can do other stuff (adjusting taxes, degarrisonning other units, starting constructions, etc.) if you want to.

Same behavior in HoMM, IIRC. And in multiplayer, you have a timer that will automatically end the turn if you take too long.

[Tolkien_Freak]

The first two, with a bit of the third. Take Civilization, for example. Once you've moved all your units, you just have to hit "space" to end the turn, as it gets automatically selected; but you still can do other stuff (adjusting taxes, degarrisonning other units, starting constructions, etc.) if you want to.

Same behavior in HoMM, IIRC. And in multiplayer, you have a timer that will automatically end the turn if you take too long.

[off-topic]
I had firsthand experience with the Civ multiplayer timer. Generally when I played single-player I would just leave it on the end of a turn if I had to go somewhere (say, school), but when I experimented with multiplayer (oxymoronically by myself) I came back from school to find the AI player had won a domination victory.
[/off-topic]

I would agree with the assessment. You end the turn when you want to a point, but if it goes over, the GM (or the governing rules) automatically ends your turn for you.

[Talanic]

Honestly, it looks to me like active time is in effect, along the lines of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Meaning, there are turns, but they interrupt each other; you can catch anyone after they've moved to a location, but not as they move. If the journey has multiple legs and they actually stop for a moment at a location, they're fair game.

Technically, in that game, the turns start in a sequence, but the turn ends for all players at the same time--when all players have declared turn over.

[factotum]

If that were the case then units would be able to move on each other's turn, and we've seen absolutely no evidence that happens. (For instance, Vinny could have sent his bats to follow the dwagons as they retreated from the column if he could move on Stanley's turn--the fact he DIDN'T indicates to me he that he COULDN'T).

[Freerefill]

If that were the case then units would be able to move on each other's turn, and we've seen absolutely no evidence that happens. (For instance, Vinny could have sent his bats to follow the dwagons as they retreated from the column if he could move on Stanley's turn--the fact he DIDN'T indicates to me he that he COULDN'T).

While in principal I agree, the fact that it's turns would indicate to me that it's turn-based and not like, say, certain Final Fantasy games.

But that won't stop me from being a total boophole who points out technicalities.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0058.html Panel 12. Vinny didn't leave bats in the column and regretted it.

I think potential evidence of the theory could lie in the spidew party that Stanley had on the return path. They encountered Ansom's party and engaged. Had Stanley been able to do anything about that, he probably would have, knowing that a few spidews couldn't match two Warlords and a handful of heavy cav. Probably further knowing his eventual disgrace if he didn't get to those magic items in time. Stanley may not know much, but he's certainly not incompetent. I'd guess that the spidews had a higher move than the heavy cav party and that if Stanley had a choice in the matter (id est, he had the ability to move during Ansom's turn) then he would have sent them on a more round-about path (since he would have had the Eyemancers inform him of any potential danger, since he would have been able to do something about it.)

[factotum]

I interpret that strip differently. I think the spidews were moving on Stanley's turn, and bumped into Ansom's party and auto-attacked them because they had no warlords. (The fact that Webinar ends the strip by saying "When our turn starts, we'll take that road" is kind of a big clue there). Stanley wasn't in the War Room at the time and probably didn't even realise his spidews were running into danger until after the event.

[Freerefill]

That's an interesting take on it, something I didn't even consider. Ultimately, we can't know who was the aggressor. We can assume that the Eyemancers saw it coming (or maybe they didn't.. maybe they don't keep that close of an eye.. maybe they can't keep that close of an eye) but Stanley was busy with Parson anyway. The spidews had no scouts and neither did Ansom's party. Either way, they ran into each other without the other knowing and, as you said, got into a brawl.

You did make me rethink my assessment. Stanley had the spidews on a "return path." That simply means that, at some point in time, he had ordered them somewhere, likely to wherever this "return" point is. That order could have been issued that very morning or several turns ago. Heck, there's even a possibility that those were the last remaining spidews from the Battle of Warchalking, returning to Gobwin Knob after the defeat (or victory, since the only outcome of the battle we know of was Lord Manpower biting the key lime pie).

Another thing to consider is the difference between city or alliance turns and battle turns. When the first stack of A dwagons attacked, the archers got their hitsies first, then the dwagons took out the bears, then the siege towers. Archers generally do get to attack first. Could that be an indication of turn based combat?

The turn system for cities or alliances seems to be a little more muddled. Ansom and Stanley both ended their turn near the end of the "day." It could be that that's their way of saying "we're done for the day" or it could be them actually issuing the order that they're done with their turn. If it is that each side has distinctive and unique "turns" then one would have to ask the question, "Who goes first, and why?"

Yet another consideration is exactly how defined all of this is. This is indeed a game we're talking about, but it's not like any game any of us have ever played. This is an entire world, an entire universe. One that's existed and has been created and is governed by physics and rules. Same as our world, just different. How subtle are the nuances? Are they as simple as Final Fantasy 1, or as complex as Kal-Toh? Are the things they say and do set in stone, rigid and unchangeable, or simply guidelines, the natural rules? And if so, what?

I think that's one of the glorious things about this webcomic. There's enough to keep us informed and entertained, but just lacking enough to keep us guessing and thirsty for more.

[ChowGuy]

Honestly, it looks to me like active time is in effect, along the lines of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Meaning, there are turns, but they interrupt each other;

I broached the idea of AoW-style Simultaneous Turns a few pages back, but I've got to admit we've not yet seen either side take advantage of such a exploitable feature. If it is allowed, I'd have expected Parson's whole ring of 27 B-Dwagons to come down on Ansom's force like an Xian Anvil[su]*[/sup] before the first stack went in against the weak hex, or at least move off out of range rather then just sitting there. If getting Ansom out there was their only purpose, they'd have accomplished that.

On the other hand as others have mention, bothe Stanley and Ansom seemed to have waited till late in the day to End Turn. Plus, I still just don't see how strictly sequential turns between those two alone can take into account any other Erfworld factions not involved in this particular campaign. Aside from Charlie's reference to "The Western Conflict" and the implication there are other Erf areas and possible conflicts going on, there's the problem of Charlie himself. Before Ansom met his price, when would he have moved? And what happens to the Tardy Elves now that Ansom has broken off his alliance with them? In a more traditional game of course all players are involved in the turn sequence and while there may be unallied sisde, or multiple-side in a FFA, there are no "disinterested observers" or "other tables" affecting it. Here it seems there are.

An even bigger problem though vis-a-vis gameworld mechanics is that if the first player (Stanley) moves in the morning, with all his units at full health, he has an enormous stategic advantage in that he can take all night to study the map and plan his game, as we've seen Parson do. When Parson tells him "we fight day and night" Stanley even points out how stupid that is because "When do you plan?" His opponent though has only the start of his own turn to strategize and react, so is always always playing catch-up. That seems like a fundamental flaw. Again that generally isn't a problem in our-world games because there usually is no idle "night" time between turns, unless you count the time an AI takes to move independents. Frankly, if and when an actually playable Erfworld game is released, I'd like to see how the authors cover that aspect.



^*Maybe not. X never did get that spell to work, and considering how useful the rest of the Xian artifacts were....

[Quietus]

Well if, as some have pointed out, both ended their turns sometime near the end of the day, is it possible that each has their turn during the same time at the same "day", but spend some time grayed out while the other side gets their turn? Might not make a lot of sense the way I put it, but I've got a bit of a headache at the moment - perhaps someone who understands what I'm getting at can elaborate/explain.

[Freerefill]

Supposedly this world is turn-based. Supposedly wars are polite and everyone has a chance to make sure they get all their ducks in a row before the shooting begins. Supposedly Ansom's puppet show was impossible because stuff doesn't happen in real-time. Supposedly Ansom didn't lose 40% of his siege because any real-time attack by any dwagons was simply impossible.

Error on the part of the writers? Exploitable mechanic? Different take on the concept of "real-time?" The list goes on I'm sure, there are probably dozens of explanations and quite a few reasons. It could run the gamut between Rob and Jamie thinking, "Hey, wouldn't it be funny if the characters said 'End the turn' instead of 'Goodnight' like we do?" to Rob and Jamie spending countless hours in a dark, damp basement carefully scrutenizing each and every rule they've made up which will govern how this world operates, down to the last slime-covered toadstool.

Throwing another theory out into the already large puddle of theories.. I would imagine in order to be "fair" to each side, neither could start their turn first with healthy units. That would be too unfair of an advantage. Instead, perhaps a turn is broken up into stages, somewhat like Magic the Gathering where all the players play each stage at the same time.

It does seem contradictory. Parson being able to control the dwagons real-time seems to null every notion of "turn" in this world. Sir Webinar and Dora ending their turn in the field at mid-day (Page 25) and later that day having re-located (Page 34) indicates multiple turns each "day." Contrariwise, Parson emptying out the Party Platter of Doom and leaving the Donut of Doom, then stopping so Ansom can take a bite out of the Donut of Doom seems to very clearly indicate each side taking turns.

Will it be cleared up? Or is it just to re-emphasize the fact that this world is a game?

[iabervon]

There is presumably some sort of anti-filibustering rule, because if sides could make turns last arbitrarily long, Stanley would presumably have kept the first turn after Parson was summoned going until Parson had learned all the rules and figured everything out and thought up the brilliant plan. There has to be some sort of limit on any kind of activity; for most units it's movement, but for Parson trying to get up to speed, it's presumably actually time (unless there's a "think" he runs out of, but that clearly doesn't drop to zero at night).

[Quietus]

There is presumably some sort of anti-filibustering rule, because if sides could make turns last arbitrarily long, Stanley would presumably have kept the first turn after Parson was summoned going until Parson had learned all the rules and figured everything out and thought up the brilliant plan. There has to be some sort of limit on any kind of activity; for most units it's movement, but for Parson trying to get up to speed, it's presumably actually time (unless there's a "think" he runs out of, but that clearly doesn't drop to zero at night).

Maybe it does drop to zero, and midnight is when it refreshes - and suddenly, with a head full of "think", he gets an incredible plan!

[Scientivore]

It does seem contradictory. Parson being able to control the dwagons real-time seems to null every notion of "turn" in this world. Sir Webinar and Dora ending their turn in the field at mid-day (Page 25) and later that day having re-located (Page 34) indicates multiple turns each "day." Contrariwise, Parson emptying out the Party Platter of Doom and leaving the Donut of Doom, then stopping so Ansom can take a bite out of the Donut of Doom seems to very clearly indicate each side taking turns.

Parson only controlled the dwagons on his own turn. Here's my interpretation of the timeline.

Spoiler

Show

Day 1

• Turn S: Wanda had a bad day.
• Turn A: It got worse. Manpower got croaked.

Day 2

• Turn S: Wanda uncroaked Manpower. She's also shown returning to GK but then two of A's turns are shown in a row, implying that it took two turns for Wanda to get to Warchalking and back.
• Turn A: Jillian arrived at Ansom's tent.
• Night: Jillian slept outside.

Day 3

• Turn S: Wanda returned to GK and suggested the Perfect warlord spell to Stanley.
• Turn A: Jillian left to recon, hit a target of opportunity and used the top hat to tell Ansom. So, he dispatched Sir Webinar and Dora to trail her. The incursion group ended turn in a field at the same time that Jillian ended turn in the trees.

Day 4

• Turn S: Stanley pulled together a flight of nearby dwagons and captured Jillian while Wanda was at the Magic Kingdom getting the Perfect Warlord spell. Wanda cast the spell with Stanley yelling garbage at her. A squad of spidews on a return path (presumably from Warchalking) got squashed by the incursion group. Wanda finally changed clothes, getting out of the strapless "dress" slit high at the sides that she'd been wearing from the beginning and into a white leather dominatrix outfit. Then, Wanda sent Bogroll away from the dungeon while Parson reviewed the troops.
• Turn A: The incursion group took the road, found Jillian's magic items and used the top hat to send a message to Ansom before he ended the turn. Ansom sent every flying unit with move to the front of the column and contacted Charlie while Prisoner was getting "the very hard way".
• Night: Parson was tutored by Sizemore and then went to sleep. Wanda continued interrogating Jillian until dawn.

Day 5

• Turn S: Wanda changed briefly into a relatively sensible outfit and Parson got his first Stupid Meal. Wanda changed again, this time into a butch schoolgirl outfit, and flew Jillian near the incursion group.
• Turn A: Charlie's Archons arrived at the incursion group. Ansom's fliers split from the column to join them while Ansom and Vinny stayed behind.
• Night: Shakespeare narrated a peaceful montage. Then, Parson woke up inspired and Misty helped him plan the next turn until Wanda showed up in a backless number with cleavage window.

Day 6

• Turn S: Wanda changed into (and then out of) a geisha-inspired robe to distract Stanley. Parson destroyed siege units, placed the dwagon wheel and got tutored by Sizemore again.
• Turn A: Ansom led the Woodsy Elves and Gumps into heavy woods to punch through the weak hex in the wheel while Stanley watched it all unfold on the situation room.
• Always: We continued analyzing the crap out of it all.

[Pyrian]

Here's my interpretation of the timeline.

That's very good. When you eat a scientist, do you absorb her powers?

[Renx]

Kickass timeline. I'm marking that post down.

[Scientivore]

That's very good. When you eat a scientist, do you absorb her powers?

Don't worry, I only devour knowledge, not cognoscenti...although...when I first started here, I used the illithid avatar.

[Zictor]

Maybe only combat is turn-based.
Great time-line

[Gez]

Maybe only combat is turn-based.
Great time-line

The time is "real" but units can only act on their turn. Why? Because.

Actions, for this purpose, include traveling (leaving the hex you are in to go to another) and directing a battle. (It is side that warlords can direct their units on their own turn, which seems to imply they can't in the opponent's turn.)

Starting a battle is not an action, it's an automatic reaction when a stack enters a hex occupied by another stack.

Outside of their turn, units are still free to do a certain number of things, like eating, cooking (even though that's not needed), playing pranks on their buddies, torturing your prisoners, crafting a special suit of armor, thinking about a plan, chatting with other units, and so on. Basically, standard normal day-to-day life, as long as it doesn't have any possible impact on combat: can't leave the hex.

[ChowGuy]

A lot of the game mechanics, particularly the "fog of war," are more suggestive of computer based games then for table top games where all players can typically see everything on the board. I think the latter though is what Parson was originally expecting, as that seems to be what he was setting up, and thus the assumption that both sides had the same plotting table.

Now then, in such computer games even when turn based its not unusual for unit moves to be plotted out on the screen, and players allowed to interrupt and alter their actions if something "interesting" occurs. That seems to be the case in Erfworld as well, with the extension that Warlord units being sentient can do so on their own.

Also, in the computer based world it is not unusual to "zoom in" on a battle once initiated on command it on a smaller scale map, either in real-time or in what might with reference to the overall strategic map be called "micro-turns."
Thus I don't think what we see occuring in battle can necessarily reveal much about the overall operation in world mode.

As pointed out above, the rule "seems" to be be that units can move about within their own hexes and within some limits do just about what they want at any time, including battle, but cannot move between hexes and thus cannot initiate or escape battles without orders. The question of "turn mode" then is "When can orders be given?"