PF Wizard 20 VS China Army?

[Xar Zarath]

It would take quite a while for everyone to figure out the cosplaying wizzie is an actual Wizard. Heck there are some self proclaimed Grand Warlocks and such here in our own RL world and we don't automatically assume "gosh, magic!"

The Wizard would have ample amounts of time to acclimate to the situation at hand. And remember its only one Wizard 20. If an entire nation or empire of Wizards decided to come to our world, then that's a different thread entirely.

[khadgar567]

I'm missing a leap of logic here somewhere.

if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools

[Strigon]

if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools

But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.

[Segev]

Just because a wizard can do marvelous things doesn't make it a fait accompli that they will succeed at any particular task, some posters take to that viewpoint without consideration.

It's more law of averages. Yes, the wizard's victims can succeed saving throws. Yes, the wizard can miss with ranged touch attacks. No, the wizard doesn't know everything to start with (and, in fact, is in the most danger of making a plot-shifting mistake in the first few minutes of encountering another human being in this strange world of ours).

That said, though, if he's smart enough to realize that he knows nothing about what's going on, he'll do one of two things: He'll assume wizards are a known (if not necessarily common) thing, and actually go into the nearest town to start asking for common information sources, identifying himself as a wizard (probably after casting tongues to facilitate communication, if Common doesn't 'plot magically' translate to whatever is the language of the area he first arrives in).

This will get him some very strange looks. Especially since his garb will stand out like a sore thumb anywhere outside of a major city running a geek-oriented convention.

But it won't get the police called unless he makes a scene that causes people to be worried. The worst case scenario for "oops, I overtly used magic" would be if some muggers or something tried to pick a fight with him before he knew magic was noteworthy in an unfortunate way; dropping sleep or web to incapacitate them and not be bothered beyond that is likely a common response from a 20th level wizard in what he thinks is a civilized area encountering what he probably presumes to be lawless thugs. (Here, the LG or LN wizard is in the most danger of screwing up: he might assume reporting this to the authorites, informing them that he put these people to sleep/trapped them in a web to subdue the criminals for the authorites' convenience. At best, they'll think he's a bit crazy and potentially dangerous, and take him in for questioning. At worst, they'll realize he put a magical web in place and know something's up.) Heck, maybe he dimension doors away from the thugs in the first place. Overt magic, yeah, but who's going to BELIEVE them? Even security cameras will be doubted in the face of that apparent impossibility, though granted, it could be what is needed to start somebody being paranoid at the right levels of government.

Regardless, just let him avoid having everything go wrong to a degree that falls outside a single standard deviation for "average events," and he will figure out that magic is unknown here, and that he stands out if he walks around dressed and acting like a wizard. A simple disguise self spell will ensure he is dressed similarly to the locals, however, and can easily get him out of trouble if he happens to make people suspicious and start searching for him.

In short, no, it's not about having to succeed at every magical thing he does. It's about the fact that he can keep trying until he does, and that wizards are not stupid and have tools that DO automatically work to let them keep secrets while learning about unknown, dangerous situations.

Failing to charm someone isn't just some kooky experience, the subject actually feels the attempt to take over their mind as a very real invasion!

And they have no idea what it was, because being charmed isn't a thing in our world. If they raise a hue and cry, they'll be the ones who seem crazy: paranoid and/or schizophrenic.

And even if people who weren't targeted just thought the wizard was a lunatic that would very actively result in social services and the police being involved to take custody of the wizard for psychiatric care. This in turn almost certainly would lead to a very public display of magic, unless the wizard is comfortable with being detained and separated from their hobo sack of spell components.

I'm going to have to stop you there.
The idea that - first of all - people would call the police over someone acting like a Wizard, is just not realistic. They'd think he was a cosplayer, or maybe start looking for the hidden camera. Most people would ignore him.

This. People only call the police on crazy-persons if the crazies are causing a scene that is driving away business or endangering themselves or others.

I could walk down Dallas's main streets wearing a bathrobe and a hat with stars stitched on it, and, as long as I was wearing a sufficiently all-encompassing bathrobe not to get called out on indecency laws, I'd just get weird looks. Even if I waved my fingers and chanted weird syllables at people before trying to get them to give me their wallet, they'd just back away and avoid me. It would take a LOT of harassment in the same place and at the wrong people, disrupting somebody's business or actively harassing people enough to make a recognizable pattern before anybody would call the police on me.

If I were grandiose enough about it, most people would think I was performing some sort of improv street theater.

Even if I did get the police called on me, my erudite speech would enable me to apologize to them for causing a disruption and probably get off with a warning to "move along" and "don't cause a disturbance." I'd have to have been acting in a way that convinced the officers I was dangerous to myself or others to get hauled off to the station (under most circumstances).


And if we replace "wizard" with "sorceress," and some of the slips of robes and belts that they're depicted as almost wearing, combined with what is acceptable attire for attractive women in the modern US... she'd get whistles and people playing along more than she'd get the cops called, at least until she started actually assaulting people. (At worst, they might approach her and ask her if she's a prostitute, and to move along; attempted arrest is only happening if they can get her to offer sex for money.)


In short: the wizard has a fair bit of leeway to make an idiot of himself in public before it rises above "eccentric street theater" to most people. And he's probably smart enough to realize that drawing attention to himself like that is a bad idea before he knows what manner of demigods rule this world of mechanical monsters.

So he'll be likely, once he realizes that he needs information before he draws attention to himself, to make liberal use of disguise self to test approaches until he finds one that works, and to elude pursuit and culpability should he accidentally run afoul of authorities (legitimate or otherwise).

Things would have to go very, very wrong before anything overtly magical happened.

He's most vulnerable to this right away. I know most PC level 20 wizards respond with overt magical force (or defense) to sudden surprise attacks from even the lowliest commoner or housecat, simply because it's possible it's really a CR 30 pseudonatural dragon disguised as a housecat.

So they either obliterate, disable, or teleport away from it.

As long as he doesn't encounter overt hostility in the few minutes of encounters he'll need to realize that overt magic draws unwanted attention, he has myriad options to avoid it being obvious. It's just a matter of him knowing to employ them first.

if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools

But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.

Yeah. They can, but that doesn't mean they have to. So it's hardly "handicapping" a wizard that he has the option.

PF is also incredibly forgiving with its specialization rules: the "banned" schools just cost 2 spell slots to prepare, rather than being truly removed from the specialist's class spell list.

[dascarletm]

Depends on the wizard.

If someone wants to build a wizard I'm sure we could have a more useful discussion on that particular wizard's tactics/their likelihood to succeed.

I'll throw in a contender. Note that this is a preconstructed NPC because I don't feel like building a character at this moment. Sadly it only lists spells prep'd not all the spells in their spellbook.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm going to have to stop you there.
The idea that - first of all - people would call the police over someone acting like a Wizard, is just not realistic. They'd think he was a cosplayer, or maybe start looking for the hidden camera. Most people would ignore him.
And that's assuming he drew attention to himself in the first place, which is not something I think he'd do. He's in a strange new world, where he doesn't know the laws or how powerful other people might be. Chances are, he's lying low until he figures out how to fit in - or at least not look like a lunatic.

Then, assuming someone actually came to take him away, the idea that social services, or whatever poor police officers they send after one delusional old man could force him into a "very public display of magic" is equally unrealistic. Even a Wizard, by level 20, is quite skilled in hand-to-hand combat, and can take a ludicrous amount of punishment. If things don't go his way, the most likely thing to do is Expeditious Retreat, which would look very strange but would probably not lead to "OMG A WIZARD!", followed by Alter Self until the heat dies down. Even that's probably pushing it - you could probably to without Expeditious Retreat, and then you just have someone turning a corner and disappearing.

Things would have to go very, very wrong before anything overtly magical happened.

Let me restate this with a little more brevity to see if I fully understand what you're proposing:

1) Stranger approaches people making outlandish requests and generally acting like a predator.

2) At some point in time, people report this malevolent behavior, or it's noticed by police on patrol.

3) Wizard resists arrest and escalates by physically assaulting a police officer.

4) Wizard, if not already shot dead outright, proceeds to run on foot from the scene of the crime.

A word on your proposed method of escape, alter Self doesn't change clothes, it either melds them into the body (so now we have a new naked lunatic on the street) or leaves them in place...in which case our quick changes artist still has his regalia of unusual things on his person.

And casting a spell is a big showy ordeal, people are going to notice that this guy waves his hands and speaks magic words and then tries to run twice as fast as a normal person would. Especially if this wizard is old, which, as a level 20 they pretty much have to be if they have a collection of spell books containing all the spells in even just the PHB.

This "new" person would be detained for questioning, at the least, no matter how much they looked different because they would have the possessions of the person being chased, or be nude.

And, not to get too into the weeds on mechanics, although a Wizard might have a, relatively, moderate BAB, these are trained combatants he's up against, their equivalent BAB is likely to be on the upper end of the scale (i.e. +15-+20) with commensurate multiple attacks. They could easily outgun and outgrapple him. Furthermore modern weapons deal a large amount of damage and have a very high rate of fire, a single gun would be lethal at point blank range.

At this point backup will have been called in, witnesses would be gathering to gawk, and the net result is the same, wizard inevariably faced with the choice of detention (or maybe lethal force for having attacked the police) or being forced to escalate the situation further.

It would take quite a while for everyone to figure out the cosplaying wizzie is an actual Wizard. Heck there are some self proclaimed Grand Warlocks and such here in our own RL world and we don't automatically assume "gosh, magic!"

The Wizard would have ample amounts of time to acclimate to the situation at hand. And remember its only one Wizard 20. If an entire nation or empire of Wizards decided to come to our world, then that's a different thread entirely.

It would only take a single spell cast. None of them can actually do actual feats of magic, there's a qualitative difference. As described this wizard isn't just keeping to themselves doing nothing, they're actively going out and trying to interact to gain information and then cast spells to try and manipulate people.

And an invasion is definitely going to draw attention. There's a slim margin for, temporary, cover by an individual, but a group has no chance of blending.

Actually, this might pose the basis for a fun modern d20 or cthulhu campaign: the party is a group of private investigators who have to look into the odd behavior of people whose relatives have noticed that they're acting strangely from having come into contact with this wizard (i.e. his early successes).

But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.

It depends on what they banned, not having Enchantment, for example, could be pretty crippling if one needs to navigate in a strange land whose customs they don't understand and where the violation of societal norms can potentially lead to permanent imprisonment.

(probably after casting tongues to facilitate communication, if Common doesn't 'plot magically' translate to whatever is the language of the area he first arrives in).

A good point, it's possible the Wizard is speaking in what sounds like gibberish to most people.

But that material component: "Arcane Material Component A small clay model of a ziggurat, which shatters when the verbal component is pronounced."

If he has to cast tongues, that's going to draw some hilarious attention.

But it won't get the police called unless he makes a scene that causes people to be worried. The worst case scenario for "oops, I overtly used magic" would be if some muggers or something tried to pick a fight with him before he knew magic was noteworthy in an unfortunate way; dropping sleep or web to incapacitate them and not be bothered beyond that is likely a common response from a 20th level wizard in what he thinks is a civilized area encountering what he probably presumes to be lawless thugs. (Here, the LG or LN wizard is in the most danger of screwing up: he might assume reporting this to the authorites, informing them that he put these people to sleep/trapped them in a web to subdue the criminals for the authorites' convenience. At best, they'll think he's a bit crazy and potentially dangerous, and take him in for questioning. At worst, they'll realize he put a magical web in place and know something's up.) Heck, maybe he dimension doors away from the thugs in the first place. Overt magic, yeah, but who's going to BELIEVE them? Even security cameras will be doubted in the face of that apparent impossibility, though granted, it could be what is needed to start somebody being paranoid at the right levels of government.

I think this whole bit becomes very very dependent on who the wizard is. If it's someone who's going out of their way to pick a fight with an entire state, they're probably some version of Evil.

And one example of an evil wizard from some of the books is a guy who walks around attached by chains to slaves who he drains of their life force to empower his spells. His reaction to anyone bothering him is to start chucking fireball spells.

That dude is simply not going to keep a low profile, and they're the most likely type to even get into this sort of thing.

As for dimension door...he's got to have an end point, in any urban environment that's probably going to be a wall, so he'll visibly pop out of a wall, possibly in front of dozens of witnesses and/or cameras.

And they have no idea what it was, because being charmed isn't a thing in our world. If they raise a hue and cry, they'll be the ones who seem crazy: paranoid and/or schizophrenic.

I think it'd be unnerving at the least as there would be association between the Wizard making weird gestures and sounds at them and the feeling of a hostile tingle.

If you're lucky at that point the person in question puts immediate distance between them, if not it's a fight.

This. People only call the police on crazy-persons if the crazies are causing a scene that is driving away business or endangering themselves or others.

I could walk down Dallas's main streets wearing a bathrobe and a hat with stars stitched on it, and, as long as I was wearing a sufficiently all-encompassing bathrobe not to get called out on indecency laws, I'd just get weird looks. Even if I waved my fingers and chanted weird syllables at people before trying to get them to give me their wallet, they'd just back away and avoid me. It would take a LOT of harassment in the same place and at the wrong people, disrupting somebody's business or actively harassing people enough to make a recognizable pattern before anybody would call the police on me.

If I were grandiose enough about it, most people would think I was performing some sort of improv street theater.

Even if I did get the police called on me, my erudite speech would enable me to apologize to them for causing a disruption and probably get off with a warning to "move along" and "don't cause a disturbance." I'd have to have been acting in a way that convinced the officers I was dangerous to myself or others to get hauled off to the station (under most circumstances).


And if we replace "wizard" with "sorceress," and some of the slips of robes and belts that they're depicted as almost wearing, combined with what is acceptable attire for attractive women in the modern US... she'd get whistles and people playing along more than she'd get the cops called, at least until she started actually assaulting people. (At worst, they might approach her and ask her if she's a prostitute, and to move along; attempted arrest is only happening if they can get her to offer sex for money.)


In short: the wizard has a fair bit of leeway to make an idiot of himself in public before it rises above "eccentric street theater" to most people. And he's probably smart enough to realize that drawing attention to himself like that is a bad idea before he knows what manner of demigods rule this world of mechanical monsters.

So he'll be likely, once he realizes that he needs information before he draws attention to himself, to make liberal use of disguise self to test approaches until he finds one that works, and to elude pursuit and culpability should he accidentally run afoul of authorities (legitimate or otherwise).

Asking for a wallet would lead to attempted robbery, not that even a charmed person would give you their wallet, it just makes people regard you as a friend, and even friends don't just give away all their things.

The image I associate with most fantasy wizards is more along the lines of hobo with a sack for their books. Sure, you won't get bothered if you don't say or do anything offensive, but approaching a total stranger, waving your hands and intoning words and then asking for their wallet? Yeah that's going to engender a negative reaction (even charmed)

He's most vulnerable to this right away. I know most PC level 20 wizards respond with overt magical force (or defense) to sudden surprise attacks from even the lowliest commoner or housecat, simply because it's possible it's really a CR 30 pseudonatural dragon disguised as a housecat.

So they either obliterate, disable, or teleport away from it.

As long as he doesn't encounter overt hostility in the few minutes of encounters he'll need to realize that overt magic draws unwanted attention, he has myriad options to avoid it being obvious. It's just a matter of him knowing to employ them first.

Teleport isn't an option, they know nothing at all about the area they are in.

[Segev]

A good point, it's possible the Wizard is speaking in what sounds like gibberish to most people.

But that material component: "Arcane Material Component A small clay model of a ziggurat, which shatters when the verbal component is pronounced."

If he has to cast tongues, that's going to draw some hilarious attention.

You keep assuming the wizard is going to walk up to somebody and do all this in the open. While he might the first one or two times if he really has no clue that magic is not known and trusted here, he's not stupid and will figure it out fast. Casting tongues in an alleyway and then walking out speaking the local language won't really be all that suspicious.

I think this whole bit becomes very very dependent on who the wizard is. If it's someone who's going out of their way to pick a fight with an entire state, they're probably some version of Evil.

And one example of an evil wizard from some of the books is a guy who walks around attached by chains to slaves who he drains of their life force to empower his spells. His reaction to anyone bothering him is to start chucking fireball spells.

That dude is simply not going to keep a low profile, and they're the most likely type to even get into this sort of thing.

Sure. If he's really confident he can do this without interference. That dude is going to quickly learn that the world is still a weird place and that he has a lot to learn, and he'll hole up in a fortress somewhere with his mind-slaves feeding him information.

As for dimension door...he's got to have an end point, in any urban environment that's probably going to be a wall, so he'll visibly pop out of a wall, possibly in front of dozens of witnesses and/or cameras.

Or just "up on the roof." And then he casts invisibility and his overland flight lets him go away in ways nobody watching suspects.

I think it'd be unnerving at the least as there would be association between the Wizard making weird gestures and sounds at them and the feeling of a hostile tingle.

Again, you assume he walks up to your face and tries this. Rather than, say, looking across the street at a likely mark and casting. Sure, somebody near him might notice the weird gestures and speech, but the target who feels the "hostile force" won't likely see a thing.

Asking for a wallet would lead to attempted robbery, not that even a charmed person would give you their wallet, it just makes people regard you as a friend, and even friends don't just give away all their things.

People walking up and asking you for a few bucks is not all that weird. Only an idiot wizard would say "give me your coin purse," because he doesn't necessarily know he's successfully charmed the mark. And wizards aren't idiots. Almost by definition.

Teleport isn't an option, they know nothing at all about the area they are in.

Line of sight teleport works. And a wizard may well have scoped out a safe point to retreat to anyway. If all else fails, there's "500 feet straight up." Remember his all-day-long overland flight.

[Xyon]

Because we exist on a plane where magic does not exist, as soon as the wizard plane shifts to earth, they would be drained of all of their spellcasting ability, and their magical items would be worthelss, and then they would even lose to a group of teenagers because on our plane everyone has about the same number of hit points.

[AvatarVecna]

Because we exist on a plane where magic does not exist, as soon as the wizard plane shifts to earth, they would be drained of all of their spellcasting ability, and their magical items would be worthelss, and then they would even lose to a group of teenagers because on our plane everyone has about the same number of hit points.

Thank you for shining some light on this totally original perspective.

[Xyon]

Thank you for shining some light on this totally original perspective.

Sorry I felt like replying before reading all 6 pages of replies. The replies I had read at the time I typed mine out had not come to the same conclusion that I did in my original reply about there being no magic in this world. There's no need to take the time and point out whatever you're feeling if its just going to be the type of reply you made. But whatever, your time is yours, heck I shouldn't even be typing out this reply because of how pointless it is but here I am.


I supose to revive things a bit we would need more specifics.

#1 under what circumstances do the wizard and the chinese army face eachother? On earth where there is no magic? In the realm of the wizard where there is magic?

#2 what laws do wizard spells operate under? Does invisibility only block visible spectrums of light? Would infra red or ultraviolet detection systems still cause the wizard to be seen? Or would it be more like how dark matter can't be detected by these, at least we think it cant or there's no evidence so far that it cant, but it can still have its mass measured to some extent?

#3 are we converting the wizard from a set of stats like attack bonus, hit points, waving throws, to a more realalistic human body, no hit points only injuries, no experience levels only your ability to react, skill at doing things, etc. Or are we converting the chinese army to less real d20 system of stats, give them all levels of xp, hp, etc. Converting their weapons, skills, vehicles, etc, into d20 rules systems.

#4 why is this even happening? whats the motivation of the wizard to defeat an army? or whats the motivation of the chinese army to defeat a wizard?

#5 why choose the whole army? Its impossible for 3.5 million soldiers to be lined up in a single battle formation to face off against 1 opponent. It could never bring to bear its full force against the wizard, so the wizard would always be facing a small part at any given time and could basically have the whole 300 spartans vs 1 million soldiers advantage of fighting in a narrow space where number advantage means nothing.

[Strigon]

#1 under what circumstances do the wizard and the chinese army face eachother? On earth where there is no magic? In the realm of the wizard where there is magic?

The most fair way to do it is to suppose that the Wizard is transported here, to Earth, and magic "seeps through", meaning the Chinese have their full infrastructure, and the Wizard has all his power.

#2 what laws do wizard spells operate under? Does invisibility only block visible spectrums of light? Would infra red or ultraviolet detection systems still cause the wizard to be seen? Or would it be more like how dark matter can't be detected by these, at least we think it cant or there's no evidence so far that it cant, but it can still have its mass measured to some extent?

The spells operate exactly as written, otherwise we aren't dealing with a PF Wizard anymore. For example, Invisibility states "While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."
This states quite clearly that they cannot be seen. To be detected via infrared or ultraviolet radiation would violate this, ergo he would remain undetectable by all EM radiation.

#3 are we converting the wizard from a set of stats like attack bonus, hit points, waving throws, to a more realalistic human body, no hit points only injuries, no experience levels only your ability to react, skill at doing things, etc. Or are we converting the chinese army to less real d20 system of stats, give them all levels of xp, hp, etc. Converting their weapons, skills, vehicles, etc, into d20 rules systems.

If you did either of those things, you wouldn't have a PF Wizard facing off against the Chinese Army. You'd have a Wizard-esque being facing off against the army, or you'd have a bunch of Fighter 5s (difficult to say, actually, since some things progress to unrealistic levels faster than others) facing off against a Wizard.
I propose that - for attacks - the rules favour the defender. For example, if the Wizard gets shot at, the Chinese have to hit him (Which can be effectively seen as them rolling and hitting the Wizard's touch AC. They haven't actually done so - they've just aimed properly - but the effects are the same), and then the bullets have a slight chance to be blocked, based on which defensive spells the Wizard has up and the caliber of the bullet. Any bullets that make it through deal X D(Y) damage to the Wizard, based once again on caliber.
If the Wizard casts Fireball, there is an incendiary explosion centred around the spell.

#4 why is this even happening? whats the motivation of the wizard to defeat an army? or whats the motivation of the chinese army to defeat a wizard?

Irrelevant. It doesn't affect the outcome.
But, just for the sake of giving an answer, the Wizard is pulled away from his world with no means of return by some sort of Supreme Being, and told that he will be put back if he can defeat the Chinese Army. At the same time, the Chinese Army receives unquestionable intelligence that a lone enemy is seeking to destroy them. Neither knows anything about their adversary save for their name.

#5 why choose the whole army? Its impossible for 3.5 million soldiers to be lined up in a single battle formation to face off against 1 opponent. It could never bring to bear its full force against the wizard, so the wizard would always be facing a small part at any given time and could basically have the whole 300 spartans vs 1 million soldiers advantage of fighting in a narrow space where number advantage means nothing.

First off, that's a gross oversimplification. In this case, the Wizard could be entirely surrounded, whereas in that battle, there was no room to be surrounded. It wouldn't be 1 on 1, 3.5 million times - it would be several thousand constantly fighting one from all sides. (I mean, it wouldn't actually be that, because the Wizard probably wouldn't sit still and just blast for months on end, but still).
Secondly, number advantage means nothing? Look, I get that it's easier to fight 5 people one by one than it is to fight 5 people all at once, but either way my money's going on the group of people. Tactically, it might not make a real difference, but strategically? It makes all the difference in the world.
Third, it's still irrelevant. Even if it were true that it's a huge advantage to only be outnumbered several thousand to one, what's your point? The question is "who would win", not "how can we make this a fair fight?"

[Xyon]

Let's assume that since the wizard could not choose to plane shift out, that teleportation is also invalid. I think the chinese army would win. Through constant attack the wizard would never be given the chance to rest after exhausting all of their spells and thus would eventually be taken down.

[Strigon]

Let's assume that since the wizard could not choose to plane shift out, that teleportation is also invalid. I think the chinese army would win. Through constant attack the wizard would never be given the chance to rest after exhausting all of their spells and thus would eventually be taken down.

Not true at all. There's no reason to say he can't teleport, or plane shift out - he just can't return home. What would happen without those spells is a different question.
Even without them, though, Rope Trick exists, and Invisibility buys you enough time to escape - especially if coupled with movement-boosting spells.

[awa]

actually hadn't though about rope trick he can hide for 20 hours at a time, if he only leaves the rope trick while time stopped he cant be touched and from inside he can just spam summoned monsters to go out and kill for him.
I mean create demi plane is more powerful but this is probably good enough and doesn't require any special preparation and being a low level spell is almost certain to be in the spell book.

Summon monster 8 summons d4+1 succubus they can teleport around dominating people shape shifting into commanders and giving conflicting orders, calling in airstrikes on their own guys either through dominated pawns or just simply using bluff and suggestion while looking like a comrade to convince them that their allies have been compromised.

Even if they try and put in place codes the dominated guys will know them to. The raw paranoia will be devastating no army can function if they think anyone they meet might suddenly turn on them or be a demon in disguise.

they only last a short while but with their teleport to get to targets anywhere in the world they can cause a crazy amount of damge in that time and at no long term cost to the wizard.

[Eldariel]

actually hadn't though about rope trick he can hide for 20 hours at a time, if he only leaves the rope trick while time stopped he cant be touched and from inside he can just spam summoned monsters to go out and kill for him.
I mean create demi plane is more powerful but this is probably good enough and doesn't require any special preparation and being a low level spell is almost certain to be in the spell book.

Summon monster 8 summons d4+1 succubus they can teleport around dominating people shape shifting into commanders and giving conflicting orders, calling in airstrikes on their own guys either through dominated pawns or just simply using bluff and suggestion while looking like a comrade to convince them that their allies have been compromised.

Even if they try and put in place codes the dominated guys will know them to. The raw paranoia will be devastating no army can function if they think anyone they meet might suddenly turn on them or be a demon in disguise.

they only last a short while but with their teleport to get to targets anywhere in the world they can cause a crazy amount of damge in that time and at no long term cost to the wizard.

Rope Trick? At least make it a Magnificent Mansion if you're gonna deny the beauty of Genesis.

[awa]

rope tricks just the minimum any wizard not smart enough to know at least rope trick should just quite now

[Quertus]

Someone dressed in a bathrobe and speaking gibberish might not warrant police attention in the USA, but that doesn't necessarily hold true for every country. Anyone care to respond as an expert in Chinese culture, law, etc?

Also, I'd be willing to give the Chinese citizens the benefit of the doubt to have the "superstitious" trait, and not just blow off mental intrusion like more jaded peoples might. Any experts care to comment?

I don't quite follow why you think that the fact that we have not developed time travel makes you believe that we would not have developed a way to interact with multiple planes if they existed.

Putting aside the question of whether time travel is possible (under 3.5 rules or real world rules) ,even following 3.5 rules it is much more difficult to interact with time than with the planes. The closest we get (as far I can recall) is a very minor manipulation with time stop - which slows time perhaps in a similar manner to how time is slowed if we travel at close to the speed of light. On the other hand characters are able to manipulate planes at a much lower level. So it would appear that in DnD planar interaction is much more easily accomplished than time manipulation.

So the fact that we have not discovered time travel does not suggest that we would not have discovered planar travel if planes actually did exist.

Although as I understood it the point being made about time travel was along the lines of "we haven't discovered time travel in the real world despite time existing, so I conclude we would not have discovered planar travel if planes existed". I don;t think that logic follows at all.

2e actually has chronomancers, and details which spells actually manipulate time. They start at 1st level, just like spells that require D&D planar geography to function, such as the monster summoning line, start at 1st level. Haste is one of the most obvious examples of lower-level D&D magic that manipulates time.

Also, as one cannot disprove that D&D planar geography exists in the real world, it is not unreasonable to postulate "the Chinese army" in a world with D&D planes looking exactly like the Chinese army IRL.

But all that is irrelevant to my actual point, which wasn't technology, but tactics. If we say the planes are real in this world, just like time is real in this world, I contend our strategies for dealing with weaponized planes would be as incomplete as our strategies for dealing with weaponized time.

In particular: "the Chinese army", as it exists right now, could well come from a world that has magic & D&D planar geography. That is the best way to allow most people's interpretations of the question.

The Chinese army, as it exists right now, is in a world that was just granted magic, and has no planes, is, however, an equally valid way to interpret the question.

But the Chinese army does not live in a vacuum in this world; this makes answering what would really happen rather complex.

For this reason, and several others (including making discussions of rules set more productive), I have pushed to move this confrontation to a "neutral" third world.

I've also included an example of something that would be "fair", while being decidedly not neutral.

Given that it is not clear that incorporeality even exists on the real world, I am interested to hear how you think we can counter it.

I would say that, because incorporeality isn't known to exist in the real world we cannot be sure how modern concepts (like radiation) would react with it - so modern concepts may effect incorporeal beings. But I don't see how we can say that with confidence.

Because jade exists in our world.

Also, slightly questionable RAW, but getting the pope to bless the army's nukes might be a thing. (because apparently holy water beats incorporeal? Is that a Pathfinder thing? Because people keep saying it.)

What you have done goes someway toward what I have been suggesting. You have created a new world in an effort to minimise any environmental advantage to either side (whether that has been done in a fair way is a whole other debate). I still think you would need to address clashes between the rule-sets though.

Created a new world, yes. But one designed to stack the deck as far in the army's favor as possible while still being fair about it.

Because there are a lot of possible interpretations that are all fair (and plenty more that are not at all fair, or that break the spirit of the question).

I have simply tried to choose the fair one that most benefits the army. I think I've done a reasonably good job.

And tried to set this confrontation up in a more "standardized" format.

I'm sure different people's PC wizards are optimised in different ways and would handle this encounter differently. My objection is to my impression that most people are imagining themselves as playing the wizard and are consequentially (and I think this is reasonably demonstrable and not just an impression) assuming the wizard is fairly optimised with all sorts of magic gear and appropriate spells in spellbook. On the other hand the Chinese army remains completely non optimised - no assignment of their ability scores in advantageous ways, no focussing all their learning (skills and feats) only on what will make them part of the most powerful army possible etc.

A simple resolution is to assume the Level 20 wizard presented in the DMG. That has stats, magic items, and spellbook set out. I haven't checked it, but I expect that it would not be able to execute most of the tactics (and defences) set out in this thread.

Another alternative is to use the 3.5 canon wizard - Mialee. I think she is stated in the Heroes and Allies book (with spellbook and magic items). The advantage with Mialee is that we may also have an insight into tactics she would use, and may be able to infer how she would react to an attempt at seduction by a person intent on poisoning her etc.

Those sub-optimal stat blocks only exist because they were created in a vacuum where WotC assumed that their standards of power and survival would suffice; this assumption, that the world would allow not just unoptimal, but hilariously unoptimal characters to make it to high levels goes against the concept of natural selection. Your unwillingness to accept this is well-documented at this point, and I don't see much point in continuing to attempt to show you why assuming the Wizard is crap is a bad assumption.

For the record, my characters are probably about as unoptimized as you're likely to see in a PC. Most of them were originally 2e wizards - meaning random stats (ok, not completely random, as you require int 9+ to qualify as a wizard), whatever random spells they happened to find on their adventures, and things like Run, Endurance, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken are among the highlights of their post-conversion stat blocks.

Even so, almost every one can defeat the Chinese army handily. At least, as 3.x characters - I know nothing of Pathfinder.

One does so purely by coincidence: in 2e, they were a lich with regeneration. In 3e, that translates to "damage converted to subdual" and "immune to subdual", which translates to immune to damage. And immune to poison, and disease, and hunger, and breathing, and maybe even to seduction (lich-loved says maybe not).

Very little could prevent this naked skeleton from turning China into a new necropolis - even nukes should, at worst, be a 1d10 day inconvenience.

Now, if someone IRL, who is also a part of the Chinese army, can turn undead as a 60th level cleric, that would be a problem.

I'm reading through "Rasputin Must Die", and will be pulling out parts relevant for the discussion; that adventure addresses how Pathfinder mechanics operate in the "real world", at a high (but not super-high) level. We'll see how they handle it.

This is awesome, but, to be fair, it is also one-sided. What I would like to see is a D&D expert who converts D&D characters into real world "stats". An example of what I mean: the hit percentage of the U.S. army is x, the hit percentage of the Chinese army is y, the hit percentage of the D&D mage is z. The effective range of engagement of the U.S. army is m, the effective range of engagement of the Chinese army is n, the effective range of engagement of the D&D mage is o. Etc etc.

But, honestly, that would matter much more in a proper war of soldiers vs fighters. High level magic tends to make such numbers not really matter.

[Vogonjeltz]

You keep assuming the wizard is going to walk up to somebody and do all this in the open. While he might the first one or two times if he really has no clue that magic is not known and trusted here, he's not stupid and will figure it out fast. Casting tongues in an alleyway and then walking out speaking the local language won't really be all that suspicious.

Sure. If he's really confident he can do this without interference. That dude is going to quickly learn that the world is still a weird place and that he has a lot to learn, and he'll hole up in a fortress somewhere with his mind-slaves feeding him information.

I mean, yes, I do make that assumption, but I think it's warranted based on Wizardly behavior in the normal D&D settings. For most settings Wizards seem to exhibit no compunction at all about walking around and casting spells. For the particular set of Wizards who are probable candidates of this thought experiment, I think they lack the self-awareness required to even consider that their actions could possibly come with dangerous negative repercussions.

With the example NPC I provided, caution isn't even part of their vocabulary, they literally don't care what those around them think about the NPCs actions.

Or just "up on the roof." And then he casts invisibility and his overland flight lets him go away in ways nobody watching suspects.

Not to be too much of a martinet, but it requires either stating a direction (I would not consider "up on the roof" to be a direction, but he'd also have to get the specific distance correct, which is beyond improbable considering the Wizard would have no idea at all how high up the roof is, or if the roof is even something that could be stood on) or visualizing the area which the Wizard could not possibly achieve for a location they'd never been to and can not see.

Aside from that, just assuming the Wizard did manage to get to a roof, Invisiblity would only last 20 minutes at which point you'd have a flying man in a city. That's gonna get seen.

Again, you assume he walks up to your face and tries this. Rather than, say, looking across the street at a likely mark and casting. Sure, somebody near him might notice the weird gestures and speech, but the target who feels the "hostile force" won't likely see a thing.

People walking up and asking you for a few bucks is not all that weird. Only an idiot wizard would say "give me your coin purse," because he doesn't necessarily know he's successfully charmed the mark. And wizards aren't idiots. Almost by definition.

Line of sight teleport works. And a wizard may well have scoped out a safe point to retreat to anyway. If all else fails, there's "500 feet straight up." Remember his all-day-long overland flight.

I mean, yes, typically all powerful Wizards seeking world domination don't care how it looks and aren't trying to be subtle about things.

It's both weird and alarming when they are dressed the way a Wizard is. Being intelligent isn't the same thing as being wise, and most Wizards by definition are intelligent, but they are not, by definition, wise. Indeed, most Wizards exhibit a distinct lack of wisdom, which is why they go about doing imminently foolish things like...well like what the Wizard of this thread is apparently doing.

Line of sight has a high rate of success (albeit not total), but that wouldn't really help since they'd still be visible from the same area by necessity.

[Strigon]

I mean, yes, I do make that assumption, but I think it's warranted based on Wizardly behavior in the normal D&D settings. For most settings Wizards seem to exhibit no compunction at all about walking around and casting spells. For the particular set of Wizards who are probable candidates of this thought experiment, I think they lack the self-awareness required to even consider that their actions could possibly come with dangerous negative repercussions.

With the example NPC I provided, caution isn't even part of their vocabulary, they literally don't care what those around them think about the NPCs actions.

Wait, I'm missing something. Why are we assuming the Wizard is - for lack of a better word - a moron? This is a place where he doesn't know the culture, laws, or even necessarily the language. There are any number of reasons why, even in the D&D universe, you might not want everybody to know that you're an all-powerful Wizard, and since he doesn't know anything about this place, it only makes sense for him to assume the worst.

Not to be too much of a martinet, but it requires either stating a direction (I would not consider "up on the roof" to be a direction, but he'd also have to get the specific distance correct, which is beyond improbable considering the Wizard would have no idea at all how high up the roof is, or if the roof is even something that could be stood on) or visualizing the area which the Wizard could not possibly achieve for a location they'd never been to and can not see.

Aside from that, just assuming the Wizard did manage to get to a roof, Invisiblity would only last 20 minutes at which point you'd have a flying man in a city. That's gonna get seen.

Judging distances isn't really that hard. Especially if you're a super genius. And, once again, I don't think it's unreasonable to give him the benefit of not broadcasting his abilities - that means avoiding flying while visible.

It's both weird and alarming when they are dressed the way a Wizard is. Being intelligent isn't the same thing as being wise, and most Wizards by definition are intelligent, but they are not, by definition, wise. Indeed, most Wizards exhibit a distinct lack of wisdom, which is why they go about doing imminently foolish things like...well like what the Wizard of this thread is apparently doing.

Line of sight has a high rate of success (albeit not total), but that wouldn't really help since they'd still be visible from the same area by necessity.

They aren't necessarily wise by definition, but at the very least they shouldn't be completely reckless, and they should have 20 levels' worth of experience to back it up. Even with 10 Wisdom - let's go with average here, because I think a Wizard would have high Wisdom, while you seem to think it should be low, so working from a middle ground seems reasonable - by level 20, he should have learned the benefits of subtlety. A Wizard with just common knowledge should be able to recognize that, when thrown into a completely foreign scenario, he shouldn't draw attention to himself. This is very basic stuff, and even if he couldn't work it out from his Wisdom score, he should have learned it long ago from experience.

[Segev]

Actually, I can think of two "typical wizard approaches" for a strange new civilization:

1) Wizards are subtle and intelligent, and recognize that they stand out with their weird clothing, and want to go in prepared. Heck, let's be honest, here, our typical assumptions about the level 20 wizard is that he doesn't brush his teeth without first divining whether his toothpaste has been poisoned. Upon realizing that this is a new place with cultures and styles and magical accoutrements (which cars and the like would seem to be to him), he's perfectly able to hop into a magnificent mansion until he can rest and recover spells, making sure to pick up his divination suite to learn as much as he can about the area before exposing himself to it. He'll learn how they'd react (in general) to a wizard, whether to draw attention to his power or hide it, he'll probably figure out that magic is rare-to-unknown, and he'll learn some basics about what approach to take, which means he'll quickly learn that subtlety is going to get him a lot further than overt expressions of power.

2) Wizards are powerful and overt, and will walk into town and proclaim their status, possibly with big fireworks and impressive displays to prove it. Still, one does not open by fireballing random citizenry; one never knows what other adventurers are lurking about. Most modern people would think he's putting on a performance of some sort. Seriously, look at how people react to over-the-top scenes in New York or other big cities; they gather to watch, and clap. He's likely to first realize he's doing something...off...when the police arrive and tell him he needs a permit or that he can't do that here. Again, not being stupid, he knows he can't just fricassee the local guard for telling him the rules of the city; who knows what kind of powerful wizards are either in the nobility or are advising them? If he finds himself pressed by those who think him mad or dangerous, he enacts an escape plan, and goes to (1). If not, he learns that subtlety is good and pretending to be a faker is better than being thought of as a madman...or revealing his power in a place so alien as to not know of magic, but yet have wonders the likes of which he's never seen before.


In either event, it doesn't take great wisdom to avoid drawing attention to disastrous levels. Even if he made the news, the world at large would dismiss it as a hoax or a really impressive bit of street theater. Investigations wouldn't give "magic" a serious consideration at all. By the time he was ready to take on the Chinese Army, he'd have way more knowledge of them than they did of him, and would easily be in position for any of the plans we've outlined. (My favorite is still the infiltration one where he charms his way to the top.)

It takes not lack of wisdom, but utter bone-headed stupidity to walk in like you rule the world already. As rare as level 20 wizards are, they still have to worry about other threats on their CR range. If he's properly paranoid, he probably suspects there are one or more levle 20 wizards who are hiding magic from the world to be its secret masters, or something, as his FIRST guess. Because that'd be the worst case scenario for him.

[awa]

that's the thing we have two choices the god wizard who shatters CR who things he untouchable wont do those dumb things because his caution is what makes him a god wizard.

The normally wizard who is not a paranoid lunatic is not arrogant because he lives in a world of other cr 20 monsters who can seriously threaten him.

Assuming a standard d&d setting we actually look way more dangerous then we are, our buildings are huge and we have thousands of largemetal constructs rolling around in vast armies filling the streets with light and noise. He has no reason to assume just by looking at him that a car is effectively harmless bare minimum he thinks its an animated object possibly a golem.

[Segev]

Assuming a standard d&d setting we actually look way more dangerous then we are, our buildings are huge and we have thousands of largemetal constructs rolling around in vast armies filling the streets with light and noise. He has no reason to assume just by looking at him that a car is effectively harmless bare minimum he thinks its an animated object possibly a golem.

Or some sort of Magical Beast; there are a few in D&D with metallic shells, and their roars as they move are disturbing. And if you get in their way they SCREAM at you! They screech as they come to a quick stop and they blare a warning, angry cry in a staccato pattern. Then their human lures curse at you, possibly casting spells with those gestures that accompany it. (Okay, your Spellcraft tells you they're not, but man, those things are trying to mimic it!)

[awa]

not to mention smart phones and automatic doors etc at a glance we have a ton of magic being used very casually. The internet would seem a very powerful divination tool that can be used at will by anyone, that would be one heck of a magic item at first glance.

[Quertus]

The premise of the thread is them fighting each other, is it not?

Thus, it is, IMO, best to just start with, "and they both want to kill each other".

[Segev]

The premise of the thread is them fighting each other, is it not?

Thus, it is, IMO, best to just start with, "and they both want to kill each other".

That still starts with "The wizard uses his supreme magical power to go into hiding long enough to learn all he can and formulate his plans for wiping them out."

To make it PARTICULARY interesting, let's say China somehow knows that this wizard is a level 20 PF wizard and has access to all of the rules of PF to analyze the full potential capabilities of this wizard.

I still think they're screwed, but it's a lot harder since they at least know to implement anti-mind-control protocols (e.g. checks to make sure key personnel are NOT mind-controlled before they're allowed to make critical decisions), and are aware they have to deal with a teleporting flying invisible sapient WMD under the best of circumstances.

That variant on the scenario now opens up the door to seeing what sorts of countermeasures might be put into place, given the capabilities of the real-world military in question, since they know the potential of the threat, even if they don't know his precise build or MO.

[awa]

one thing they need to worry about though is that wizards have so many ways of tricking people mind control, mind manipulation, illusion, shape shifting +mind reading minions, that trying to account for all of them might just cause them to collapse without the wizard casting a single spell as paranoia and conspiracy eats them alive from within.

Additionally is resources the army has finite funds and material if they try and build counter measures to everything a wizard can do they will run out of resources before the wizard runs out of tricks. Particularly since some of the more esoteric spells would require extensive research and development before they even have a possibility of defense. (shadows and ethereal)

[Belzyk]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.

*Citation needed.

[dascarletm]

*Citation needed.

Clarke's First through Third Laws?¹



1: "'Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination'" in the collection Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the Limits of the Possible (1962, rev. 1973), pp. 14, 21, 36.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Clarke's First through Third Laws¹?



1: "'Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination'" in the collection Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the Limits of the Possible (1962, rev. 1973), pp. 14, 21, 36.

That's RAI, not RAW. We don't deal with your kind, here.