Steven UnIVerse: 4shadowing

[Manga Shoggoth]

Connie is not a gem
Ergo Connie has no gem powers
In order to increase power with a fusion, you have to get more power from somewhere
Ergo Steven munches on Connie's fancy Earth life energy... stuff.

It's a case of 1 + 0 != 2. There has to be something that Connie can specifically contribute to that scene stealing creepy Mary Sue fusion. The Earth and its inhabitants having some kind of magical life energy that can power gems is supported by this.

Thank you for giving a clear answer.

There are several problems with this, the greatest being: A leech removes stuff without giving anything in return.

Steven also has "life energy" (being half human), so the "munching" on Connie's energy arguement seems a little spurious - he could equally be munching on his. Besides, when two Gems fuse the fusion is drawing on both Gems - yet you don't regard that as "leeching" (Except possibly in the case of Sardonyx, but that's for a slightly different reason).

Is hetero fusion banned? I probably need to rewatch that episode, but "how dare you fuse with a member of my court?" seems to be a condemnation of the act, not of its specifics.

Maybe a society as regimented as Homeworld probably gets confused about the new types of gems that are created out of a hetero fusion? "What is a Garnet? We do not have a listed purpose for Garnets. Therefore, Garnet should not exist." And they never came up with it themselves because "We need strong fighters, let's stack our existing fighters together" makes sense and they didn't see the need to push it further.

Garnet's narration says that hetrogenous fusion is unknown (or at least, those present had never seen it), but the main outrage does appear to be due to a lowly Ruby having the temerity to fuse with Sapphire.

It doesn't mention "forbidden" anywhere, but with Homeworld it cound be a case of "everything not permitted is forbidden".

[Flickerdart]

Re: the whole leeching energy idea, wasn't there an episode centered on the fact that Steven hasn't physically grown? Maybe his gem is tapping into that energy to power itself. This would make Steven uniquely powerful among gems, if they are otherwise restricted to either whatever they were made from (like Jasper), or drawing power from Earth (like Peridot). Though the fact that Amethyst "runted out" and hasn't gotten more powers would imply that the amount of "power up" a gem can get from a planet after being born is limited. I'm thinking an Era 2 Peridot is just so rubbish that mere exposure to Earth's energy gave her a little power boost, sort of like a gas naturally dissipates to areas of no gas.

Perhaps that's what Rose saw in humans - by allowing life to supply power gradually, rather than harvesting it all at once, gems of unparalleled power could be created. Jasper may have been born perfect, but Steven gets more powerful by the day simply as a function of his being. It takes him time to grow, but eventually he will surpass even Diamonds in power, presuming that he doesn't die of old age first.

[theNater]

Connie, without magical life energy, is just a sack of organs that happens to find Steven agreeable.

Why can't Connie be contributing the sack of organs?

Remember, Steven's body is part energy, part organic. We know that his gem is capable of generating an energy form much larger than Steven, even significantly larger than Stevonnie(Rose Quartz). So it's reasonable that the limiting factor on size may be the amount of organic material available; more organic material allows for a larger stable form.

[Flickerdart]

more organic material allows for a larger stable form.

Size seems to be a function of strength. Amethyst is small and weak, Jasper is big and strong. Ruby and Sapphire are individually small and weak, Garnet is big and strong. Steven is the only one we've seen buck this trend.

[DigoDragon]

Re: the whole leeching energy idea, wasn't there an episode centered on the fact that Steven hasn't physically grown? Maybe his gem is tapping into that energy to power itself. This would make Steven uniquely powerful among gems, if they are otherwise restricted to either whatever they were made from (like Jasper), or drawing power from Earth (like Peridot). Though the fact that Amethyst "runted out" and hasn't gotten more powers would imply that the amount of "power up" a gem can get from a planet after being born is limited. I'm thinking an Era 2 Peridot is just so rubbish that mere exposure to Earth's energy gave her a little power boost, sort of like a gas naturally dissipates to areas of no gas.

I had been thinking Steven's lack of physical growth is just an extended lifespan for being part gem.

Why can't Connie be contributing the sack of organs?

Isn't she contributing her skills and knowledge to the Stevonnie fusion? I thought that's why Stevonnie was good with a sword--it's from Connie's part.

[Snowbluff]

So then what's the gestation period supposed to be like for a gem? Peridot (the expert) said amethyst was in the ground too long, which stunted her growth.

The extra organs might help. They help me get past the school nurse. :p

[ellindsey]

It is canonically established, both by the word of god of the creators and as shown in the show, that a fusion is an embodiment of the relationship between the members of the fusion. The stronger the relationship, the stronger the fusion - whether that relationship is based on love, platonic friendship, or mutual loathing (as it was with Malachite). This is how fusions canonically work in Steven Universe. To claim that a fusion is only the sum of the members is to make the same mistake Jasper did and completely miss the point of fusion.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Re: the whole leeching energy idea, wasn't there an episode centered on the fact that Steven hasn't physically grown?

Nope - Steven's age is variable (depending on his emotional state, I think). He has had two birthday-centered episodes (So Many Birthdays and Steven's Birthday) and the aging subject has come up in both. In So Many Birthdays he has quite violent age swings.

[John Cribati]

I'm 90% certain that So Many Birthdays was his shapeshifting abilities being affected by his emotional state. And in Steven's Birthday, he wasn't even aging himself, just stretching himself out (he loses control for a split second and his arm shrinks, not his whole body at once). He just reverted to a baby form because he used too much energy.

[Rater202]

He also sprouts a facial hair by the end of Steven's Birthday, so he's aging he's just aging slowly(or perhaps not growing.)

[Draconi Redfir]

drawing power from Earth (like Peridot).

I'm thinking an Era 2 Peridot is just so rubbish that mere exposure to Earth's energy gave her a little power boost,

Where are you getting the idea that Peridot is gaining power from the earth? There's been nothing to suggest that is the case.

[Snowbluff]

It is canonically established, both by the word of god of the creators and as shown in the show, that a fusion is an embodiment of the relationship between the members of the fusion. The stronger the relationship, the stronger the fusion - whether that relationship is based on love, platonic friendship, or mutual loathing (as it was with Malachite). This is how fusions canonically work in Steven Universe. To claim that a fusion is only the sum of the members is to make the same mistake Jasper did and completely miss the point of fusion.

That might make sense for gems, but doesn't solve Connie's lack of magical potential. When they make Magic A is Magic A the standard, them subvert it, they have to establish a reasoning for the contradiction.

Maybe connies muscles get added? But she doesn't have much muscle, and Steven is already stronger than he looks.

Where are you getting the idea that Peridot is gaining power from the earth? There's been nothing to suggest that is the case.

Peridot (who is still the expert on gem growing) stated that she shouldn't have powers because they did not have the resources to make Peridots with powers anymore. So we look for a correlation to try and find causation. Peridot is the only Era 2 Peridot with powers, and the only one on Earth. She gained said powers after visiting Earth.

Potential difference is the name of the game with the flow of many things, energy included.

[Keltest]

Peridot (who is still the expert on gem growing) stated that she shouldn't have powers because they did not have the resources to make Peridots with powers anymore. So we look for a correlation to try and find causation. Peridot is the only Era 2 Peridot with powers, and the only one on Earth. She gained said powers after visiting Earth.

Potential difference is the name of the game with the flow of many things, energy included.

Frankly, I think its just more likely that Peridot was either wrong or deliberately misinformed by Homeworld as to the nature of her powers. The "earth has a magic energy field that makes gems better" theory relies a lot more on not being explicitly contradicted than it does evidence. It also raises a lot of fridge logic questions, like why the Crystal Gems, who have been living on earth for thousands of years, aren't super amazingly powerful (or even abnormally powerful for their gem type) from all that earth goodness? Or why the Homeworld Gems didn't realize that earth made them more powerful and re-conquered it a long time ago? Heck, Amethyst is abnormally small and weak, even compared to other Earth-born amethysts (who, by the way, are relegated to guarding a backwater space station rather than at the forefront of the Diamond's armies).

[John Cribati]

The simpler answer is that Peridot always had the power, just was never informed. I'd even posit that the floaty fingers on Peridot Limb Enhancers work because they subconsciously tap in to the ability.

I personally think that Era 1 Peridots were Lapis Level with their magnetic powers, and when Era 2 came along and they were Weaksauce at it, the Diamonds had the first batch done away with and from then on stopped informing them that they had the power to begin with.

[theNater]

Size seems to be a function of strength. Amethyst is small and weak, Jasper is big and strong. Ruby and Sapphire are individually small and weak, Garnet is big and strong. Steven is the only one we've seen buck this trend.

Right, his dual nature is a complicating factor. We can be pretty sure he's stronger than the (similarly-sized) Peridot from the panel in When it Rains. My guess is that he's as strong as Rose, regardless of size. There are still advantages to increased size, however. More mass means a greater ability to throw one's weight around, longer limbs means better leverage, and so on. Just the ability to hold the sword in one hand is valuable.

Isn't she contributing her skills and knowledge to the Stevonnie fusion? I thought that's why Stevonnie was good with a sword--it's from Connie's part.

Yes, the brain would be one of the organs involved.

So then what's the gestation period supposed to be like for a gem? Peridot (the expert) said amethyst was in the ground too long, which stunted her growth.

They are definitely absorbing something, but the only relevant description I know of is Amethyst's "suck up all the good stuff from the ground". There's no reason to assume it's a metaphysical life energy when it could just as easily be some collection of physical materials. A glance at wikipedia's plant nutrition page suggests that consuming all the phosphorus, potassium, sulphur, calcium, and magnesium in a region would make that region quite incapable of supporting life.

Whatever materials are involved, a gestating gem in a spot lacking those materials would naturally not form as expected. It might stay in the ground until natural soil movements brought a bare minimum of the necessary elements within absorption range, at which point it would form into a smaller than expected body. That sounds like Amethyst to me.

Peridot (who is still the expert on gem growing) stated that she shouldn't have powers because they did not have the resources to make Peridots with powers anymore.

The ability to generate a physical form, and regenerate it when it is damaged, is a gem power. Peridot's information on gem powers is not as reliable as she thinks.

[Snowbluff]

Peridot can't be wrong. She's the expert. Mister Exposition. She's right about everything else in her field, save for one case tut is beyond the scope of a standard kindergartener.

Mayer, that's semantics. You know what I meant colloquially, if we can consider that a power rather than a gemolgocical function.

If they just needed minerals to grow they could be constructed in space. No living planets would be needed. Unless it is plants and they NEVER figured out how to grow new ones. The places that they grow gems seem like they were deserts before they had gems, too.

[Keltest]

Peridot can't be wrong. She's the expert. Mister Exposition. She's right about everything else in her field, save for one case tut is beyond the scope of a standard kindergartener.

Mayer, that's semantics. You know what I meant colloquially, if we can consider that a power rather than a gemolgocical function.

If they just needed minerals to grow they could be constructed in space. No living planets would be needed. Unless it is plants and they NEVER figured out how to grow new ones. The places that they grow gems seem like they were deserts before they had gems, too.

The evidence suggests that Peridot was wrong. Not sure what more you want us to say on the matter.

Also, how do you know they aren't grown in space? There could be a giant gem base on mars that we don't know about because we haven't seen mars yet.

[theNater]

Mayer, that's semantics. You know what I meant colloquially, if we can consider that a power rather than a gemolgocical function.

When she claims she has no powers, it is in the context of shapeshifting, which also appears to be a standard gemological function. There is no sensible classification that makes one of those a power but the other not.

Honestly, I'm still not convinced she can't shapeshift. She wasn't exactly giving it her all.

If they just needed minerals to grow they could be constructed in space. No living planets would be needed. Unless it is plants and they NEVER figured out how to grow new ones. The places that they grow gems seem like they were deserts before they had gems, too.

I'm not aware of any point in the show when anyone claims living planets are needed. And gems don't need air and can adapt to any level of gravity, so the ability to grow gems in lifeless places seems pretty reasonable. Peridot also treats the quantity and variety of life on Earth as unique when conversing with Yellow Diamond and Jasper, suggesting that most kindergartens she's worked on are in places with little to no non-gem life.

[Draconi Redfir]

I’m firmly of the mind that Peridot is just a lucky fluke. Era 2 Peridots DON'T have powers normally, but through some sheer luck she managed to get them, if in weaker form. She plain didn't know about them until the events of "too short to ride". Most likely nobody else knew about them either, since she isn't supposed to have it.


Assume for a moment you were born with your right eyelid merged shut, you absolutely can't see anything out of that eye, doctors tell you you will never see anything out of that eye, and your eye just plain doesn't work. So you get used to seeing through your left eye alone. Then one day you get in an accident, and your right-eyelid gets torn open! and holy ship, you can see! It's all blurry and manly just blobs of dark and light everywhere, but you can still "See" through it! The longer you see through the eye the more accustomed you get to it, the more you work out those muscles and eventually your right eye can almost see full shapes.

that's what's happening with Peridot, her powers were unknown to everyone until that moment, and she's been practising and exercising her muscles, making them slowly more potent until she's able to move small tin cans around without effort. She might not be able to move entire cars, and you may not ever have 20/20 vision in that right eye of yours, but it's still something.

Implying that Peridot is "Gaining power from the earth itself" brings up the whole "Earth is Magical" topic we discussed the other day. it's boring and silly, and just kinda doesn't make sense.

[DigoDragon]

Implying that Peridot is "Gaining power from the earth itself" brings up the whole "Earth is Magical" topic we discussed the other day. it's boring and silly, and just kinda doesn't make sense.

Not necessarily.

If we think of gems like batteries that suck up the local life-force of the planet they're grown on to reach full power, era 2 Peridots are batteries only charged to 25% before released. They barely have enough juice in them to function and need things like limb enhancers to be useful.

But living on Earth, Peridot has been exposed to a strong medium of life-force, allowing her "battery" to charge more and lead to gaining a power. The other gems have been living on Earth for thousands of years, but they were already at 100% charge when they were made, so the life of the planet isn't adding anything more to them (in Amethyst's case, overcharged which damaged the battery, leading to her being short).

[Draconi Redfir]

Okay. So what is this life-force?

[Lord Raziere]

.......

If Peridot was sucking up the Earth's energy to fuel her powers.......why did she still have them in the Beta Garden, where it was explicitly mentioned that the vital stuff of the Earth was y'know......gone? If we were going by that logic, it would be the place with the least amount of power since its both a desert and sucked out by all the Gems made there. Yet that is the place where she demonstrated the greatest USE of her power of all so far, taking out Jasper.

While it doesn't make sense for Steven to be this parasite snacking on Connie. the energy requirements for something stronger than both of them, to be blunt, probably exceeds both of their energy capacities. If that was true, Connie would be dead. Simple as that. You'd have to be hyper-efficient at sucking up and using this energy for her to be alive, but even then, humans are beings with interconnected organic systems where every part requiring them to function in some way, and if they have a "life force" then that has to be vital to them to be alive, so it being drained from her would have adverse effects on her health, when the training has only been shown to make her become more healthy while getting rid of her need for glasses.

I think people are confusing natural gem abilities with Gem technology. And even then, only a specific kind of Gem technology. There has been no evidence that all Gem technology or Gems themselves run on the Kindergarten's principles. I mean if the Gem's really required this nebulous life energy field or whatever to parasitically suck away at, why are the Ruby Squad still floating out in space just fine, without having gone back into their Gems? Space is even more desolate and lacking in energy than that Beta Garden.

Furthermore there is no evidence for Amethyst receiving any actual benefit from eating food. Its just a hobby of hers. While the Human Zoo somehow functions as a space station without turning the very habitat it supports into a wasteland and all the humans in it into skeletons. To support such a thing you need to EXPEND energy and you can't do that by eating the energy of the thing your trying to support. And then there are Rose Quartz's powers which are outright life-giving rather than life taking. And then there is the moon base which somehow functions despite not having any life around it and is a place where night can last for weeks and therefore wouldn't always have the sun's energy to draw upon either.

Or the fact that there has been a gem geo-weapon known as the Cluster sitting near or at the Earth's Core for thousands of years made of more Gem shards than you can shake a stick at, in a prime position to suck out all the life of the planet forever, but the only concern was it forming at and destroying the planet rather than it draining the entire planet into a wasteland. If Gems really were that parasitic, The Cluster would've turned Earth into a complete wasteland long ago and the Diamonds would've approved and applauded its initiative. *peridot snort*

[Snowbluff]

Ok, for starters we need to talk about conservation of detail. When writing a story, you don't drop important details like "Era 2 Gems are weak" and "Homeworld is low on resources," vital to the arc of the story and given by the expert on the subject, and then throw your hands up in the air and say "woop, nope that important stuff wasn't right."

And so if homeworld can make gems on just any planet, conquest has 0% of their attention. No one would need to find planets with correct conditions to make gems. That's why it's life energy that is required to grow, but not operate a gem. A gem becomes stronger as it grows, but ones without proper conditions to grow don't have more advanced powers or other capabilities. Peridot is powerless, and Amethyst is stunted because of this.

Because it works like a growing gem. Peridot munches up the surrounding energy, causing her to "grow." You didn't ask why Jasper was still swol at Beta Kindergarten. :p

The gems in the cluster were complete gems (more like fully grown). Their energy requirement only goes as far as stitching them together, which I think was already down. The cluster was NOT growing, it was regenerating, getting ready to form a new body like a poorer gem.

Gem fusion experiments were grown (for lack of a better term) at a depleted kindergarten as well, presumably because the faculties were there. In the end I assume gem cluster/ fusion expirements take considerably less energy than growing gems from scratch, hence the investigations continuing into the reousrcd starved era 2.

[Aquillion]

The strength of a fusion comes not just from the gems, but also from the emotional bond between them. Yes, this is a setting where emotional connection can directly translate to physical power. What did you think the whole point of Garnet's "Made of Love" song was? If the emotional bond between two people is strong, the fusion between them will be stronger than they are individually, even if one of them isn't a gem in the first place.

Except that in terms of raw abilities, Garnet is clearly much weaker than Malachite, and probably weaker than Opal.

I think what love gives her is stability, which translates to power in a practical sense (because few other fusions can stay together for so long or while taking the hits she does.) But Stevonnie doesn't seem to have any vast hidden secret powers.

That said, this whole discussion seems a bit silly. Connie doesn't have any magic to offer, but she still has a physical body, which offers enhanced size and strength. Stevonnie also combines their training. And on a more abstract level, Stevonnie combines their experiences, granting more maturity (both physical and mental), at least when they're in sync.

Stevonnie is an amalgam of Steven and Connie's attributes like that; in terms of gem powers, obviously Steven has more to offer, but that doesn't mean anything, really.



Regarding the life energy stuff, I'm not convinced abstract "life energy" is a thing in the setting. My reading is that gem creation kills the land because it absorbs mineral nutrients that plants need to live (hence Amethyst's comment about it consuming "the good stuff".) For the most part, SU has leaned towards doing-in-the-wizard after the first season. And when we saw the future of a gem-colony earth, it was the earth being physically consumed, not spiritually.

[DigoDragon]

In Peridot's words from Message Received:

"The organic ecosystem creates resources unique to this world, we can't sacrifice all that potential just for one geo-weapon! I'd like to tell you some plans I came up with to utilize the planet without disrupting the local -"

We organics apparently produce something that is valuable to Gems, whether it's lifeforce, organic compounds, or whatever. If we didn't, then I would wonder why Homeworld hasn't nuked the planet's surface from orbit to eliminate all life and take away what the Crystal Gems were fighting for all this time. It doesn't even have to be nukes, they could chuck asteroids at us. They're very efficient.

[Aquillion]

Keep in mind that Peridot is the only one who thinks that, so whatever it is, it can't be something gems consider essential.

I suspect that she was referring to organic compounds, yes, but also culture and more abstract resources like that. (ie. she would argue that Camp Pining Hearts is an educational resource with the potential to improve gem's abilities by giving them expanded insight.)

[Keltest]

In Peridot's words from Message Received:



We organics apparently produce something that is valuable to Gems, whether it's lifeforce, organic compounds, or whatever. If we didn't, then I would wonder why Homeworld hasn't nuked the planet's surface from orbit to eliminate all life and take away what the Crystal Gems were fighting for all this time. It doesn't even have to be nukes, they could chuck asteroids at us. They're very efficient.

Probably, because as far as it goes, they haven't ever been fighting Earth and the humans, they've been fighting the Crystal Gems and the rebellion, who are equally powerful and efficient.

[Draconi Redfir]

Ok, for starters we need to talk about conservation of detail. When writing a story, you don't drop important details like "Era 2 Gems are weak" and "Homeworld is low on resources," vital to the arc of the story and given by the expert on the subject, and then throw your hands up in the air and say "woop, nope that important stuff wasn't right."

Nobody is saying there is no resource shortage. What i'm saying is that Peridot is a FLUKE She's like Jasper in a way, sub-optimal conditions in growth and yet she still turned out better then she should have been. Other Peridots were born without powers, but when she emerged she had weak powers that were never used, and since she never knew she had them, they never got used.

Nobody is saying Peridot is Wrong we're saying Peridot Didn't Know

And so if homeworld can make gems on just any planet, conquest has 0% of their attention. No one would need to find planets with correct conditions to make gems. That's why it's life energy that is required to grow, but not operate a gem. A gem becomes stronger as it grows, but ones without proper conditions to grow don't have more advanced powers or other capabilities. Peridot is powerless, and Amethyst is stunted because of this.

Okay, so i will ask you again. What exactly, is "Life Energy"? Where is it? What does it do? How do you use it? where does it come from?


Re: Peridot's words about organic-produced resources... Honestly i took those words as just her lying out of her teeth to try and convince Yellow to spare the earth, there were no "unique resources", she just wanted to save the earth and show that Yellow wasn't as horrible as the Gems thought she was.


... Although as far as we know Gems have never made Plastic before. Could be that Plastic is what gives humans an edge over Gems technology-wise.

[Razade]

In Peridot's words from Message Received:



We organics apparently produce something that is valuable to Gems, whether it's lifeforce, organic compounds, or whatever. If we didn't, then I would wonder why Homeworld hasn't nuked the planet's surface from orbit to eliminate all life and take away what the Crystal Gems were fighting for all this time. It doesn't even have to be nukes, they could chuck asteroids at us. They're very efficient.

You mean...like they're doing with the Cluster? Exactly what they're doing? Organic life isn't important to them. Yellow Diamond says "organic life" like it disgusts her, when Peridot brings up that the Earth as resources that could be used Yellow Diamond says 'I don't care. I want my cluster, I want that planet destroyed". Yes, part of that is because of Pink Diamond but she doesn't even consider Peridot's proposal. Message Received seems like a pretty good argument against any idea Earth is special.

[Snowbluff]

Nobody is saying there is no resource shortage. What i'm saying is that Peridot is a FLUKE She's like Jasper in a way, sub-optimal conditions in growth and yet she still turned out better then she should have been. Other Peridots were born without powers, but when she emerged she had weak powers that were never used, and since she never knew she had them, they never got used.

Nobody is saying Peridot is Wrong we're saying Peridot Didn't Know

I'm saying Peridot not knowing is inconsistent given that it's her field of expertise, and her use as a story telling device to deliver exposition and world building

Okay, so i will ask you again. What exactly, is "Life Energy"? Where is it? What does it do? How do you use it? where does it come from?


Re: Peridot's words about organic-produced resources... Honestly i took those words as just her lying out of her teeth to try and convince Yellow to spare the earth, there were no "unique resources", she just wanted to save the earth and show that Yellow wasn't as horrible as the Gems thought she was.


... Although as far as we know Gems have never made Plastic before. Could be that Plastic is what gives humans an edge over Gems technology-wise.

No clue! Still waiting on the textbook. I'm just working with what we've been given so far. I could be wrong, and love does everything (and if I am I am using this theory to craft my own universe).

Earth having unique resources was probably BS, or she was talking about art. The Diamond would have been aware if it was capable of continued gem production or not (probably is still capable, but infeasible due to attacked by the rebellion), as the status would not have changed in the millennia of disuse. The report would have been stating the obvious.

Maybe the gem destabilizers are just plastic. :0