Steven UnIVerse: 4shadowing

[MorgromTheOrc]

I've been told I'm on the spectrum (Aspergers, natch considering my parentage), but I'm more apathetic than unaware.

The good news that cartoons are good for people on the spectrum.

All my family are very normal people so mine's not genetic, but I'm also more apathetic than anything. Find myself unwilling to pretend I feel like expressing emotions when I don't, can't smile if I legitimately wasn't happy about anything at that moment, can't force those things because I hate the fake feeling.

Steven Universe has helped me realise a lot of things about myself and others that eluded me before I got fictional representation for it. D&D has helped a lot too, I actually play very expressive characters. I only seem to be able to truly identify things about myself and others in literary examples, where I'm actually great at identifying intentions and feelings. Wish I knew how to treat life as fiction and do that with real people.

Nice to see I'm not alone in some of this stuff.

[kjelfalconer]

Lawful Good: Pearl, although she can shade towards LN, as there have been times where her devotion to Rose's cause has outweighed her actual understanding of what the cause is; Sapphire; Kiki; Connie Maheswaran; probaly Sadie--some thoughtless actions regarding her relationship with Lars aside, she's generally by-the-book and compassionate.
Neutral Good: Steven Universe and Rose Quartz, the all-loving heroes; Stevonnie; Garnet, as a fusion between LG Sapphire and CG Ruby. That probably puts Opal here as well--and Alexandrite, technically, though she doesn't really have a seperate personality.
Chaotic Good: Amethyst, Ruby, Sardonyx, Smokey Quartz; Vidalia; Nanefua Pizza. Not sure if Greg goes here or at Neutral Good. The Cool Kids land in this vicinity, I think, though Jenny might trend more CN.
Lawful Neutral: Smol!Peridot; Dr. and Mr. Maheswaran; Peedee Fryman; Kofi Pizza; probably Mayor Dewey. Presumably the average alignment for Homeworld Pearls.
True Neutral: Lapis Lazuli; Mr. Fryman, Harold Smiley, Beach City adults at large.
Chaotic Neutral: Lion; Bismuth; Sugilite; Lars; Ronaldo Fryman; Corrupted Gems and Gem Shard Monsters
Lawful Evil: Original Flavor Peridot; Yellow Diamond and presumably the Great Diamond Authority as a whole; Yellow Pearl, who seems to take smug satisfaction in using her position to harangue other gems; the Ruby Squad by virtue of being dedicated (if dim-witted) soldiers of Homeworld.
Neutral Evil: Marty, Kevin
Chaotic Evil: Jasper; Malachite (for what time she existed as her own 'unit' in Super Watermelon Island); and, of course, ONION.

I think my only issue with that list is Onion. Onion is clearly unaligned, for much the same reason you wouldn't list Cthulhu as evil. Its imposing a system which is quite frankly irrelevant to the subject matter.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I think my only issue with that list is Onion. Onion is clearly unaligned, for much the same reason you wouldn't list Cthulhu as evil. Its imposing a system which is quite frankly irrelevant to the subject matter.

I don't know, I think Onion's aware of what he's doing. Like a grand plan of chaos, as(loosely) evidenced by him putting on a mask when threatened with jail time. Also kinda makes me wonder if Steven was blamed for some machines that Onion broke too.

[Aquillion]

Pearl made a fairly unstable fusion trip and get knocked out by their own weapon. As Amethyst points out in Cry For Help, Garnet is stronger than both Pearl and Amethyst is solo fights.

"Strong" isn't easily quantifiable, though. Clearly Garnet has more raw power; but Amethyst isn't necessarily the best judge of Pearl's overall capabilities.

Notice that in Ocean Gem, Lapis has to devote two duplicates to fighting Pearl, and she's still the only one of the Crystal Gems who is winning her match when Steven dissolves them. Pearl has more actual combat experience and has spent more time training than any of the other Crystal Gems (and possibly more than any other character in the series.) That's why she was able to beat Sugilite.

(Granted, the other reason she did so well against the water duplicates was probably because she spends huge amounts of spare time practicing against her own duplicates specifically; Garnet and Amethyst didn't really know how to fight themselves, but Pearl did.)

[LaZodiac]

It's almost as if the episode where Pearl beats Sugilite due to planning and smarts has a song about it who's message is everyone is strong in their own ways and no one is inherently superior or something.

[Snowbluff]

+1 Aquillion.

It's almost as if the episode where Pearl beats Sugilite due to planning and smarts has a song about it who's message is everyone is strong in their own ways and no one is inherently superior or something.

Falls flat with Amethyst, though. I'm still peeved about that.

[LaZodiac]

+1 Aquillion.


Falls flat with Amethyst, though. I'm still peeved about that.

Amethyst's main emotional problem is "I think I'm a garbage loser" so that makes sense.

[Snowbluff]

Amethyst's main emotional problem is "I think I'm a garbage loser" so that makes sense.

Even when she does well she gets her ass kicked. Stupid Earthlings... worst episode... :(

[endoperez]

In Coach, Pearl fought Sugilite head on, got a peptalk, abd changed gears. Amethyst got beaten in the beach, got several episodes' worth of time and pep talk, and tried the same thing but harder.

Didn't Amethyst refuse Steven's help in Earthlings at first?

I'm expecting Amethyst to change in some way, and to be able to fight against Jasper-like threats in the future, with a different tactic.

[Draconi Redfir]

to be fair, amythis IS a Quartz. It wouldn't be unreasonable to presume that soldier quartz's are predesigned to tackle problems head on with brute strength and force. Runt or no runt, Amythis would be hardwired to try and punch her way through any new problem that comes her way, she'd need to actively resist her mental hardwiring in order to try and outsmart or out-run her opponents. And she doesn't exactly have the sevral thousands/tens of thousands of years of learning how to go against her programing that pearl did, for Amythist it was never even a neccesity, Pearl all but HAD to learn how to fight because she was part of a rebellion and a war, all Amythist has fought have been gem monsters and human animals at best, she's never NEEDED to out-smart or out-run them, she's never learned to go against her hardwiring and think of different approaches to things like Jasper.

Think of it like Sour Cream's gameboy music setup. Yeah, the gameboys can and are being used to make music, but it took a lot of time and effort to spesifically re-design them TO play music, any regular old gameboy that didn't have any work on it is going to be more capable at playing video games then it is music.

[endoperez]

to be fair, amythis IS a Quartz. It wouldn't be unreasonable to presume that soldier quartz's are predesigned to tackle problems head on with brute strength and force. Runt or no runt, Amythis would be hardwired to try and punch her way through any new problem that comes her way, she'd need to actively resist her mental hardwiring in order to try and outsmart or out-run her opponents.

That's why they're doing this, I think. They're showing how some people (well, many people) aren't what they wish they'd be, and don't live up to their own expectations of what they should be. It is a hard story to tell well without the story becoming cynical. There's no magic fix-it-all in the real world, so giving Amethyst one would be a cop-out. Having Amethyst be happier not being a Quartz would be her abandoning who she is. Leaving her unhappy would be quite depressing. But the show is clearly going somewhere with all of this. I'm interested to see how Amethyst will change, and how this will work out for her.

[DigoDragon]

I'm expecting Amethyst to change in some way

Well, she is a top-class shapeshifter.

[Keltest]

I'm wondering if Rose's absence isn't wearing on Amethyst a lot more than she lets on. Obviously she misses her, but a few of Amethyst's comments during the fight against Jasper make me think that maybe she relied on Rose to keep her self-esteem above critical levels. She certainly seems to be struggling with it now, and part of her recent fights with Steven seem to hint that maybe she wants him to fill that same role, but his own self-esteem issues keep him from filling that role the way Rose did.

[Snowbluff]

In Coach, Pearl fought Sugilite head on, got a peptalk, abd changed gears. Amethyst got beaten in the beach, got several episodes' worth of time and pep talk, and tried the same thing but harder.

Didn't Amethyst refuse Steven's help in Earthlings at first?

I'm expecting Amethyst to change in some way, and to be able to fight against Jasper-like threats in the future, with a different tactic.

Well, no that's not even the problem. She didn't land a scratch on Jasper after several direct hits. She never had a chance and never will, assuming the writing staff continues to forget that training should make you better. Amethyst's fighting style has always been creative and all over the place, but that should, you know, make it GOOD if she uses it to catch an opponent off guard and land a solid hit... but we now know that won't do anything anyway. >.>

It's like if you have a rogue in DnD. "Okay, I set up my flank! +2 attack and I sneak attack!" but the enemy is a construct and has damage reduction so you deal no damage at all and even if you tried your hardest, your main combat style is entirely pointless.

[Keltest]

Well, no that's not even the problem. She didn't land a scratch on Jasper after several direct hits. She never had a chance and never will, assuming the writing staff continues to forget that training should make you better. Amethyst's fighting style has always been creative and all over the place, but that should, you know, make it GOOD if she uses it to catch an opponent off guard and land a solid hit... but we now know that won't do anything anyway. >.>

It's like if you have a rogue in DnD. "Okay, I set up my flank! +2 attack and I sneak attack!" but the enemy is a construct and has damage reduction so you deal no damage at all and even if you tried your hardest, your main combat style is entirely pointless.

She got direct hits, sure, but Jasper was ready for them and wasn't even trying to fight back, instead just focusing on taking the hits. The first hit Amethyst got in did visibly affect Jasper, but as she compensated her defenses that kind of attack became less effective. Plus, her weapon is a whip. You don't do a whole lot of damage by hitting someone with one of those even if you do get a good shot in. She didn't, for example, grab a rock with it and fling it at Jasper, she just smacked her with it ineffectually.

That's part of the point. Amethyst is trying to fight Jasper on Jasper's terms out of a sense of pride, but Amethyst doesn't fight like that, not effectively.

Smokey was more successful in part because she wasn't trying to out-brute Jasper, but instead outmaneuvered her. She kept Jasper off balance and generally controlled the battlefield to her favor.

[Snowbluff]

Smokey was more successful in part because she wasn't trying to out-brute Jasper, but instead outmaneuvered her. She kept Jasper off balance and generally controlled the battlefield to her favor.

This is literally the opposite of everything. Seriously, we're looking at 1 to 2 cuils here, maybe three since we're discussing a cartoon.


Smokey won precisely because she was able to brute force her way through the fight. Or did you forget the ****ing yo yo tornado?

[Flickerdart]

Amethyst's skillset (whip, small size, shapeshifting) greatly predisposes her to skirmish fighting. This works well against opponents that are dumb, slow, have weak points, or are trying to accomplish some external objective. Jasper is none of those things - she is agile, cunning, and to lift a phrase from the esteemed author Margaret Atwood, "built like a brick ****house." On top of that, Jasper is happy to sit there and let Amethyst crash against her, because Jasper's battle plan doesn't involve anything except beating Amethyst up.

Against a hypothetical Sugilite-like opponent, Amethyst's fighting style would dominate.

[Keltest]

This is literally the opposite of everything. Seriously, we're looking at 1 to 2 cuils here, maybe three since we're discussing a cartoon.


Smokey won precisely because she was able to brute force her way through the fight. Or did you forget the ****ing yo yo tornado?

In what way is that brute force? Its tactics. Its battlefield manipulation. She didn't just throw punches at Jasper until she blacked out.

[Snowbluff]

In what way is that brute force? Its tactics. Its battlefield manipulation. She didn't just throw punches at Jasper until she blacked out.

Of course not, she only did the cartoon equivalent. None of that would have worked if Amethyst did it, because Amethyst could never do anything to Jasper. Ever. Nada.

It's like if you have a rogue in DnD. "Okay, I set up my flank! +2 attack and I sneak attack!" but the enemy is a construct and has damage reduction so you deal no damage at all and even if you tried your hardest, your main combat style is entirely pointless.

This analogy is still perfect, and that makes me very sad.

[Lizard Lord]

Amethyst didn't try any battlefield manipulation against Jasper. She did not fight against Jasper the same way she fought against Steven. It is impossible to say for 100% certainty what would have happened if she did.

[Flickerdart]

Amethyst didn't try any battlefield manipulation against Jasper. She did not fight against Jasper the same way she fought against Steven. It is impossible to say for 100% certainty what would have happened if she did.

I think Jasper would have wrecked Amethyst anyway. As a perfect Quartz warrior and veteran of Rose's Rebellion, she would know every trick in the book, and how to guard against it, which makes her Amethyst's toughest possible opponent. The reason Jasper is wrecked by fusions every time is that it's a battle tactic largely unknown on Homeworld. Another Quartz? Easy peasy. Whatever the hell a Garnet is? Or a Smoky Quartz? Or an Alexandrite? No clue at all.

On the flip side, Steven has even less experience than Amethyst, and less raw strength, which makes Amethyst's fighting style much more effective.

[Keltest]

I think Jasper would have wrecked Amethyst anyway. As a perfect Quartz warrior and veteran of Rose's Rebellion, she would know every trick in the book, and how to guard against it, which makes her Amethyst's toughest possible opponent. The reason Jasper is wrecked by fusions every time is that it's a battle tactic largely unknown on Homeworld. Another Quartz? Easy peasy. Whatever the hell a Garnet is? Or a Smoky Quartz? Or an Alexandrite? No clue at all.

On the flip side, Steven has even less experience than Amethyst, and less raw strength, which makes Amethyst's fighting style much more effective.

I don't think I agree with that. Fusion as a battle tactic is the only particularly common use on Homeworld. While she might not know the exact capabilities of the new fusion, the idea that she would be caught that completely off guard by it seems wrong.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think I agree with that. Fusion as a battle tactic is the only particularly common use on Homeworld. While she might not know the exact capabilities of the new fusion, the idea that she would be caught that completely off guard by it seems wrong.

Fusion on Homeworld is not the same thing as fusion on Earth. On Homeworld, five Rubies fuse to make a bigger Ruby, who thinks like a Ruby, and fights like a Ruby. Jasper could beat that kind of fusion with her eyes closed.

[John Cribati]

Of course not, she only did the cartoon equivalent. None of that would have worked if Amethyst did it, because Amethyst could never do anything to Jasper. Ever. Nada.

Say you have two identical Barbarian builds, except where one Barbarian has 19 Strength, the other has 14. Who wins? The one with 19 Strength, right? Same principle. Amethyst is bad at being a Quartz because she's small, and Quartzes are supposed to be huge, beefy brutes.

Note that Amethyst wasn't fighting like she usually did against Jasper. Seriously, outside of her fight with Jasper, when has Amethyst actually tried to hit a person with her whip? She usually uses it for ranged grabs or as something akin to a slingshot, grabbing things and throwing them. Yet, all she was really doing was hitting Jasper with it.

[Draconi Redfir]

and less raw strength

It's been pretty heavily hinted at that Steven is unnaturally strong in recent episodes. from prying off a metal pannel peridot couldn't move with his bare hands, to carrying heavy concert equipment alone when normally it required at least two people.

watch the episode where sour cream puts on a concert with the help of his biological father again. Steven's a superman and doesn't even realize it.

[Keltest]

It's been pretty heavily hinted at that Steven is unnaturally strong in recent episodes. from prying off a metal pannel peridot couldn't move with his bare hands, to carrying heavy concert equipment alone when normally it required at least two people.

watch the episode where sour cream puts on a concert with the help of his biological father again. Steven's a superman and doesn't even realize it.

Relative to the crystal gems, I think hes still the weakest.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think I agree with that. Fusion as a battle tactic is the only particularly common use on Homeworld. While she might not know the exact capabilities of the new fusion, the idea that she would be caught that completely off guard by it seems wrong.

Correction:
Non-homogenous gem Fusion catches her completely off guard. A bunch of Rubies doing it? A-Ok, because Gems are only supposed to fuse with the same Gems. but Stevonnie? (a half-gem and a human) Garnet? (a Sapphire and a Ruby) and Smokey Quartz? (half gem and a Gem) these are all, in her eyes, abominations against how her culture thinks fusion should be. So she gets angry and falls apart in battle from seeing relationships that don't fit her worldview.

her worldview is that such a relationship should only be for a boost in power for weaker Gems who need it- like the Rubies. The Ultimate Quartz like her though, she believes doesn't need it. Why need to improve what is already the pinnacle of war? Note, she is a blatant hypocrite in this regard in seeking out Lapis to fuse with again in a heterogenous fusion, but for reasons of seeking power which in her mind she probably thinks it doesn't count. She just wants to be the Ultimate Warrior, the most powerful warrior that the galaxy has ever seen, and she can be that if she becomes Malachite.

The conflict of Jasper vs. the Crystal Gems is not a case of a person of no relationships vs. people with relationships. Its a case of someone with really horrible relationships for horrible reasons vs. people with good relationships for good reasons.

[Flickerdart]

It's been pretty heavily hinted at that Steven is unnaturally strong in recent episodes. from prying off a metal pannel peridot couldn't move with his bare hands, to carrying heavy concert equipment alone when normally it required at least two people.

watch the episode where sour cream puts on a concert with the help of his biological father again. Steven's a superman and doesn't even realize it.

Steven's strength is impressive for a chubby 10 year old, not for a millenia-old Quartz warrior. There is no doubt that Rose Quartz was physically stronger than Amethyst, and Steven will probably surpass her too, but right now the Purple Puma has the edge in muscle over Tiger Millionaire.

[Keltest]

Correction:
Non-homogenous gem Fusion catches her completely off guard. A bunch of Rubies doing it? A-Ok, because Gems are only supposed to fuse with the same Gems. but Stevonnie? (a half-gem and a human) Garnet? (a Sapphire and a Ruby) and Smokey Quartz? (half gem and a Gem) these are all, in her eyes, abominations against how her culture thinks fusion should be. So she gets angry and falls apart in battle from seeing relationships that don't fit her worldview.

her worldview is that such a relationship should only be for a boost in power for weaker Gems who need it- like the Rubies. The Ultimate Quartz like her though, she believes doesn't need it. Why need to improve what is already the pinnacle of war? Note, she is a blatant hypocrite in this regard in seeking out Lapis to fuse with again in a heterogenous fusion, but for reasons of seeking power which in her mind she probably thinks it doesn't count. She just wants to be the Ultimate Warrior, the most powerful warrior that the galaxy has ever seen, and she can be that if she becomes Malachite.

The conflict of Jasper vs. the Crystal Gems is not a case of a person of no relationships vs. people with relationships. Its a case of someone with really horrible relationships for horrible reasons vs. people with good relationships for good reasons.

Not sure I agree with that either. She fought against the rebellion, and we know at least Garnet was involved in it and hung around with Rose a lot. It seems quite likely that she would have become familiar with the concept, even if she didn't get the appeal. And indeed, on first seeing garnet, she not only immediately recognized her as a fusion, but was scornful of her for being a fusion at all, not being anon-homogenous fusion, which was not referenced at all.

[Flickerdart]

Not sure I agree with that either. She fought against the rebellion, and we know at least Garnet was involved in it and hung around with Rose a lot. It seems quite likely that she would have become familiar with the concept, even if she didn't get the appeal. And indeed, on first seeing garnet, she not only immediately recognized her as a fusion, but was scornful of her for being a fusion at all, not being anon-homogenous fusion, which was not referenced at all.

Recognizing a heterogenous fusion is simple. A new type of gem you haven't heard of in six thousand years? Fusion. Multiple gems? Fusion. Famous rebel warrior? Might be a fusion.

But merely recognizing Garnet isn't nearly enough to beat Garnet. For instance, nothing Jasper has ever fought would have had future vision, because on Homeworld, all Sapphires are non-combatants.

Amethyst, on the other hand, is your basic weak(er) Quartz. Jasper's done that a million times.