WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[Traab]

So, a strange bug happens irregularly with me. I play a warlock and I tend to just drain soul everything to death. It works well enough. The problem is, some times the skill bugs out and will only channel for a single tick then stop. Its not knockbacks or spell interrupts or anything like that, it just seems to randomly happen. Anyone have any ideas about this? Or more importantly, how to fix it when it happens?

[The_Jackal]

If the goal is for the player base to interact with the world, content absolutely is getting lost or having to remember things about the world, and having to deal with world mobs.

Highmountain would be a much more convenient zone if flying were allowed there, but I think the addition of flying would drain the zone of much of its character. However, I think (especially in that area) Blizzard absolutely should enable flying for spirits.

My argument would be that that is a dumb and wrong-headed goal. WoW is a multiplayer game, and the goal should always be: Make it easier for players to play your game together. Having to wait while a party member struggles to find their way up a cliff is contrary to that goal. IMO, flying over scenic mountains is a lot more enjoyable and satisfying than puttering around looking for paths. I know my enjoyment from Tanaan Jungle was MASSIVELY higher once I unlocked flying, so telling me that making me walk places is more engaging or fun is, in my case, the opposite of true.

And, given the treasure chests, rare mobs, interactive bonuses from picking up items, mini quest centers, and hidden things like Suramar Leylines, it's pretty clear that the goal IS player interaction with the world and world terrain.

Sorry, but no. A hidden treasure chest is NOT content, or at any rate, not any content I would dignify with my money. Rare mobs don't get any more fun because I had to spend 150% more time reaching them. What's more, if all you want to do is make an area harder to reach, there are other great ways to accomplish that without revoking flying in general: Put the approach indoors, or give his area some anti-aircraft ability which prevents you from flying or feather falling in safely. There's a lot more creative ways of solving that problem then just revoking flying.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sorry, but no. A hidden treasure chest is NOT content, or at any rate, not any content I would dignify with my money. Rare mobs don't get any more fun because I had to spend 150% more time reaching them. What's more, if all you want to do is make an area harder to reach, there are other great ways to accomplish that without revoking flying in general: Put the approach indoors, or give his area some anti-aircraft ability which prevents you from flying or feather falling in safely. There's a lot more creative ways of solving that problem then just revoking flying.

And we can agree to disagree. I'd find tons of indoor areas or "anti-air guns emplacements" that auto-shoot me down far more frustrating than not having flight, and I find the game much more immersive, engaging, and fun when I DON'T get to fly through the world at high altitude making my adventure one of point-to-point-to-point.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I mean, I'd argue the ability to simply bypass everything between destination A and destination B does indeed trivialize content, yes. Suramar quests, for example, would be simplicity if you could fly from point A to point B.

Exactly which ones? Getting from Point A to point B is not content. It is filler, there is not a single quest in Surumar that is made any harder or easier with flight outside of "Oh great now I have to play the maze game to get out to the ocean because there is no close flight point.

Any Assassination missions? Guess what I do what I have done for everything past the third day of the expansion..I pull everything on the way to the thing I actually need to kill stack up festering wounds and pop APOC and one shot (well 8 shot really) everything that I aggroed.

[Psyren]

I think flight is something they should turn on eventually, but I'm happy with expansions leaving it off for the first X months and gating it behind various exploration-related achievements. Yes, the world is fun to explore on foot when the expansion first comes out, and yes, being able to fly does make certain challenges or obstacles less meaningful. But there's no reason that months-later alts and prior-expansion content should be landbound, at least imo.

[TechnOkami]

Seeing Demon Hunters running around Draenor content when they weren't even playable yet is the funniest thing. Then again, I suppose the same thing happens when Death Knights start running around doing BC quests & whatnot... dunno, the DH is a more recent addition, and more fresh in my mind thus funnier to me.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I think flight is something they should turn on eventually, but I'm happy with expansions leaving it off for the first X months and gating it behind various exploration-related achievements. Yes, the world is fun to explore on foot when the expansion first comes out, and yes, being able to fly does make certain challenges or obstacles less meaningful. But there's no reason that months-later alts and prior-expansion content should be landbound, at least imo.

Yeah, I am generally happy with how flight is happening (so long as we get Broken Flight by the next raid tier. No flight during leveling and early expansion makes full sense. It is just after you get even moderately geared up that the content is already Trivial, I have stopped doing World Quests for anyone but emissaries already because the rewards have fallen off sharply for me on my main.

Also treasures are not content, not remotely content. 10 gold and a laughable amount of artifact power is nothing. (no really the AP from chests is like 40 for me and I need 82K for my next trait)

[Traab]

Seeing Demon Hunters running around Draenor content when they weren't even playable yet is the funniest thing. Then again, I suppose the same thing happens when Death Knights start running around doing BC quests & whatnot... dunno, the DH is a more recent addition, and more fresh in my mind thus funnier to me.

For me it was seeing stuff like blood elf paladins and draenai shaman since until the expansion both were faction specific classes. Within a day or two of release there were dozens of each running around hellfire. Its like, "Really? You were that interested in playing this class that instead of creating one on the other faction like a normal person, you waited for the expansion and power leveled yourself to 58 in a day?" I think some of that was people hoping for world first/server first achieves or something.

[Kish]

Five million gold says it had nothing to do with achievements.

Achievements weren't added until WotLK.

[Psyren]

Also treasures are not content, not remotely content. 10 gold and a laughable amount of artifact power is nothing. (no really the AP from chests is like 40 for me and I need 82K for my next trait)

All the AP items should be account-bound at some point so that you can gear up alts more easily. It would make even the small ones good for something.

For me it was seeing stuff like blood elf paladins and draenai shaman since until the expansion both were faction specific classes. Within a day or two of release there were dozens of each running around hellfire. Its like, "Really? You were that interested in playing this class that instead of creating one on the other faction like a normal person, you waited for the expansion and power leveled yourself to 58 in a day?" I think some of that was people hoping for world first/server first achieves or something.

I was actually one of those people, back in the day I was dying to try Shaman but all my friends played Alliance. So yes, powerleveling a Draenei was my only option, which I did.

Then Cata added Wildhammer Dwarves and Sunwalker Tauren and I shed manly tears. One of many reasons why Cata is still my favorite xpac.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Also treasures are not content, not remotely content. 10 gold and a laughable amount of artifact power is nothing. (no really the AP from chests is like 40 for me and I need 82K for my next trait)

This I agree with: the idea is solid, the implementation weak. Chests should, in my opinion, be instanced, randomized on a daily/weekly basis, and contain Artifact Power at least matching what you'd get from queuing for a Heroic Dungeon. Possibly with some larger ones that have a chance of Dungeon-level gear.

[Icewraith]

My argument would be that that is a dumb and wrong-headed goal. WoW is a multiplayer game, and the goal should always be: Make it easier for players to play your game together. Having to wait while a party member struggles to find their way up a cliff is contrary to that goal. IMO, flying over scenic mountains is a lot more enjoyable and satisfying than puttering around looking for paths. I know my enjoyment from Tanaan Jungle was MASSIVELY higher once I unlocked flying, so telling me that making me walk places is more engaging or fun is, in my case, the opposite of true.



Sorry, but no. A hidden treasure chest is NOT content, or at any rate, not any content I would dignify with my money. Rare mobs don't get any more fun because I had to spend 150% more time reaching them. What's more, if all you want to do is make an area harder to reach, there are other great ways to accomplish that without revoking flying in general: Put the approach indoors, or give his area some anti-aircraft ability which prevents you from flying or feather falling in safely. There's a lot more creative ways of solving that problem then just revoking flying.

If that's their goal, before they even think about flying they need to loosen up the zone questlines so they're shareable up to a point. One of the expansion's biggest failings to date is that my wife and I have been mostly unable to quest together as we have different amounts of time to play, and our mains and now our alts were never at the same point on any of the quest chains. All levels being able to do normal dungeons is absolute gold however.

Exactly which ones? Getting from Point A to point B is not content. It is filler, there is not a single quest in Surumar that is made any harder or easier with flight outside of "Oh great now I have to play the maze game to get out to the ocean because there is no close flight point.

Any Assassination missions? Guess what I do what I have done for everything past the third day of the expansion..I pull everything on the way to the thing I actually need to kill stack up festering wounds and pop APOC and one shot (well 8 shot really) everything that I aggroed.

Uh... have you gotten to 8000 reputation into honored with the Nightfallen yet? The elite area of Suramar would be significantly easier if you could just fly over everything. There's no way you're 8-shotting things in that area. Personally I think that even if they enable flying for the Broken Isles in general, Suramar City will remain a no-fly zone. FYI, if you do the main Suramar story questline, you'll eventually unlock handy portals that drop you off in key points all over the zone- including one that drops you off right next to a path that leads down to the Vrykul village on the Suramar coastline.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Uh... have you gotten to 8000 reputation into honored with the Nightfallen yet? The elite area of Suramar would be significantly easier if you could just fly over everything. There's no way you're 8-shotting things in that area. Personally I think that even if they enable flying for the Broken Isles in general, Suramar City will remain a no-fly zone.

I would imagine this may be why it has a giant shield over it, actually.

[Psyren]

If that's their goal, before they even think about flying they need to loosen up the zone questlines so they're shareable up to a point. One of the expansion's biggest failings to date is that my wife and I have been mostly unable to quest together as we have different amounts of time to play, and our mains and now our alts were never at the same point on any of the quest chains. All levels being able to do normal dungeons is absolute gold however.

No offense, but this is a personal problem, not a "failure of the expansion." The way you solve this is by having your "couples characters" that you only play together, and then one or both of you having an alt that you can play solo when the other is not available. That way you can play as much as you want without leaving your partner behind.

Hell, this expansion has gone further than any previous one in letting disparate players party up, thanks to monster and quest scaling. Each of you can thus designate one of the broken isles areas as your "partner" questing zone and stop all questing within that area when you're alone, questing in the other three instead. This way you can even progress your main. For instance, I as a 102 was able to tank world elites or round up quest mobs for 108+ healers and dps in the zone with me without either side trivializing the content. It's brilliant really.

[Icewraith]

No offense, but this is a personal problem, not a "failure of the expansion." The way you solve this is by having your "couples characters" that you only play together, and then one or both of you having an alt that you can play solo when the other is not available. That way you can play as much as you want without leaving your partner behind.

You know, we've tried this, and the result has been that designated couple's alt characters end up getting left to rot until one of us decides we want to work on that character when we're feeling ... alt-y and levels it anyways.

But you're also missing a big part of the issue, which is that because the class storylines are different and involve solo scenarios, unless we're both playing the same class we're almost immediately going to get sent in different directions where we don't even have the option of playing together (and unless we've got identical professions, those will send us in different directions too!). And we have different preferences when it comes to classes.

Previous expansions: Hey, I have a character at (previous max level) and you have a character at (previous max level). Let's pick a zone (or the Jade Forest) and level them together!

Legion: "Hey, we both have alts at 100... let's do our order hall and artifact questlines, get our professions sorted out, and then see if any of the zones we get sent to match."
*one of us is invariably done before the other one*
"Hey, I'm going to do X while I'm waiting for you"
"Ok"
(later)
"Ok, I'm done, did you wait for me?"
"Yes, but now I'm in the middle of Y, let me finish things up here so I don't have to run out here again"
(later)
"Ok, I'm done with Y"
"Alright, hang on a minute, I was doing A while waiting for you and it just sent me into a scenario."
"OK, I'll go do Z"
(later)
"Ok, we're both available, let's quest together! Where do you have things sending you?"
"Um... X and Z"
"Great, I've got a thing sending me to do A, and I already did Y."
"Well, now we need to go to bed, so..."

Hell, this expansion has gone further than any previous one in letting disparate players party up, thanks to monster and quest scaling. Each of you can thus designate one of the broken isles areas as your "partner" questing zone and stop all questing within that area when you're alone, questing in the other three instead. This way you can even progress your main. For instance, I as a 102 was able to tank world elites or round up quest mobs for 108+ healers and dps in the zone with me without either side trivializing the content. It's brilliant really.

Right, and the only fly in the ointment is that it is now easier to accidentally quest alongside complete strangers playing whatever classes we feel like playing than it is to intentionally quest with whatever alt I feel like playing and whatever alt my wife feels like playing in Legion content. If my character hasn't done the zone yet but hers is somewhere in the middle, I should be able to piggy-back (via quest sharing) onto her quest chain up until the "zone payoff" dungeon quest, which would remain greyed out until the full chain has been completed.

We seriously tried this with Stormheim but it just never worked out. Granted we were also under the expansion-opening time crunch, but now I've got one alt at 103 and she's got one at max level on top of our mains.

Also... if you truly wish to not cause offense, avoid phrasing things in such a way that you feel the need to preface them with "no offense, but..." If it seems like there's a simple solution to someone else's problem, there's a chance that they didn't think of that solution... but there's also a chance that they already tried it and it didn't work for whatever reason. Maybe "Did X not work for you?" or similar.

[Kish]

Wow. It sounds like they took the general idea of Star Wars: The Old Republic, and reversed everything that made it work.

Spoiler: discussion of SW:TOR, should someone not know and be curious about what I'm talking about

Show

TOR is mostly about the class storylines--eight storylines, one for each class--but, they can bring other people into their solo scenarios (though the other people can't talk while guests in another class's solo scenario, only participate in any fights that are part of the scenario and passively watch the dialogue parts). People always go to the same parts of the same planets in the same order as everyone else on their side (so the difference is something like, "We both want to be on this map now; I need to talk to someone at the northwest part of the map, and you need to assassinate someone at the middle of the north part of the map").

[ryuplaneswalker]

Uh... have you gotten to 8000 reputation into honored with the Nightfallen yet? The elite area of Suramar would be significantly easier if you could just fly over everything. There's no way you're 8-shotting things in that area. Personally I think that even if they enable flying for the Broken Isles in general, Suramar City will remain a no-fly zone. FYI, if you do the main Suramar story questline, you'll eventually unlock handy portals that drop you off in key points all over the zone- including one that drops you off right next to a path that leads down to the Vrykul village on the Suramar coastline.

yes, yes I have, I am exalted with Nightfallen, and no I can't blow up those elites but guess what. I have done those world quests all of..twice, looking at the one I have now it grants a whole six blood of sargeras and you miss one fact, and when they do proc with something actually worth doing a quest for? I mirage, find one of the places I have scouted that aren't going to get more extra aggro and solo the groups you have to do. Aside from the assassination one..where I just Yolo towards the target as fast as I can die in a corner and rez in the room they are in because neither flight or the stealth matter when you have two guards outside the door that would aggro no matter which you take, and you don't need that "handy portal" for the Vrykul Village there is a flight point landing right outside of it but you still get to play the FUN content of "run through 3 areas to get to the quest that will take you less time than you took traveling to it to complete"

Those quests wouldn't really be made easier by by flight, you got this magical thing where you don't actually aggro mobs so what would flight do again? Infact none of the world quests really would be made any easier by flight outside of the boring kirin tor bubble thing, and that is my major problem with how the Developers have argued that "No flight" is a good thing, every single argument they have made about it is at best a half truth.

"It trivializes content"

No, not really traveling is not content. Having to slog through 6 mobs that are no threat to me and won't drop anything of value isn't content. Content is the actual objective of the quest.

"It makes the world seem smaller."

No, the chore of having to play "Where is the path in high mountain to the pet battle quest I am getting to because it isn't on the map" doesn't make the world seem bigger. You know what makes the world seem smaller? Killing off your only relevant and named Troll Character, having artifact quests that are literal copy pastes for something. Having two classes with every artifact for them being made by the burning legion. Having characters not grow as beings and repeat the SAME OLD FACTION CONFLICT over and over for no reason makes the world feel smaller.

"It breaks Immersion"

I wish I had archived the thread that completely sets this phrase on fire but let me ask you what is Immersive about doing the Garrison Daily in Shattrath, seeing a Blood Knight hop on a Red Dragonhawk and fly away..me getting on that exact same mount..and falling to my death when I do the exact same action as that Blood Knight on the Same mount? THAT is breaking Immersion not me getting on a dragon and having that giant winged lizard take flight.

If the Developers don't want flying, they should have just came clean in WOD and said "No, we aren't doing flying anymore we don't like it. Sorry" instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments, like they did with reforging.

All the AP items should be account-bound at some point so that you can gear up alts more easily. It would make even the small ones good for something.

-blinks- Not really >.> 20 AP is something of a really small amount about 3 traits in :P

I would imagine this may be why it has a giant shield over it, actually.

There is a lore reason for that

Wow. It sounds like they took the general idea of Star Wars: The Old Republic, and reversed everything that made it work.

Funny, TOR ripped off half the bad Mechanics of WOW and..didn't make it work, and really the actual questing part of the Order Hall stories aren't alot of the gameplay, It can all be done in about an hour total.

[Psyren]

You know, we've tried this, and the result has been that designated couple's alt characters end up getting left to rot until one of us decides we want to work on that character when we're feeling ... alt-y and levels it anyways.

But you're also missing a big part of the issue, which is that because the class storylines are different and involve solo scenarios, unless we're both playing the same class we're almost immediately going to get sent in different directions where we don't even have the option of playing together (and unless we've got identical professions, those will send us in different directions too!). And we have different preferences when it comes to classes.

As ryuplaneswalker pointed out, the solo scenario stuff for the artifacts and order hall takes a couple hours tops. The vast majority of the questing content, including all the dungeon quests, can be done in groups.

As for the profession stuff, you can still do all that together, you just have to take turns. "My Blacksmithing is sending me to Highpeak and your Alchemy is sending you to Azsuna, let's decide which one to do first" seems like a reasonable conversation to have, especially when you know you'll have to end up getting all the pillars at some point anyway.

Wow. It sounds like they took the general idea of Star Wars: The Old Republic, and reversed everything that made it work.

Spoiler: discussion of SW:TOR, should someone not know and be curious about what I'm talking about

Show

TOR is mostly about the class storylines--eight storylines, one for each class--but, they can bring other people into their solo scenarios (though the other people can't talk while guests in another class's solo scenario, only participate in any fights that are part of the scenario and passively watch the dialogue parts). People always go to the same parts of the same planets in the same order as everyone else on their side (so the difference is something like, "We both want to be on this map now; I need to talk to someone at the northwest part of the map, and you need to assassinate someone at the middle of the north part of the map").

I'll be honest, I wouldn't have minded being able to bring friends along to my scenarios either, but at the same time there was a level of challenge in soloing and keeping NPCs alive that I simply wouldn't have had with more competent players at my side. There are also class-specific puzzles in some of them that require you to know your spec's toolbox (e.g. the Scythe of Elune). So ultimately I agree with the design choice, especially since as stated above it's a brief digression from multiplayer at most.

[The_Jackal]

You know, we've tried this, and the result has been that designated couple's alt characters end up getting left to rot until one of us decides we want to work on that character when we're feeling ... alt-y and levels it anyways.

But you're also missing a big part of the issue, which is that because the class storylines are different and involve solo scenarios, unless we're both playing the same class we're almost immediately going to get sent in different directions where we don't even have the option of playing together (and unless we've got identical professions, those will send us in different directions too!). And we have different preferences when it comes to classes.

I've long advocated that WoW should implement a City of Heroes style 'sidekick' and 'mentor' system. That said, with scaling content, there's still no reason that most of the time you can't work together to knock out your leveling content. Yes, you'll have the occasional solo scenario, or phased encounter, but those are relatively small parts of the Legion whole.

Wow. It sounds like they took the general idea of Star Wars: The Old Republic, and reversed everything that made it work.

Spoiler: discussion of SW:TOR, should someone not know and be curious about what I'm talking about

Show

TOR is mostly about the class storylines--eight storylines, one for each class--but, they can bring other people into their solo scenarios (though the other people can't talk while guests in another class's solo scenario, only participate in any fights that are part of the scenario and passively watch the dialogue parts). People always go to the same parts of the same planets in the same order as everyone else on their side (so the difference is something like, "We both want to be on this map now; I need to talk to someone at the northwest part of the map, and you need to assassinate someone at the middle of the north part of the map").

Spoiler: SW:TOR vs Legion party mechanics

Show

Yes, definitely. SW:TOR is better designed for play in each other's scenarios from the ground up, because say what you like, Bioware really believes in the strength of their story, and push hard to keep you, the player, engaged. That cuts both ways, however, and having daily quests where you've got to answer the same quiz to get your follow rep gains gets old pretty fast, as does waiting for your one party member in a Flashpoint to watch the cutscene and make up his mind.

This cuts back to my overarching point that rule #1 of the MMO genre needs to be this: "Get players cooperating, then get out of the way". Phasing and solo scenarios are perfect examples of 'you did this wrong', in my book.

I'll be honest, I wouldn't have minded being able to bring friends along to my scenarios either, but at the same time there was a level of challenge in soloing and keeping NPCs alive that I simply wouldn't have had with more competent players at my side. There are also class-specific puzzles in some of them that require you to know your spec's toolbox (e.g. the Scythe of Elune). So ultimately I agree with the design choice, especially since as stated above it's a brief digression from multiplayer at most.

Perhaps, but the challenge factor can also be handled more gracefully by letting players dial in a difficulty setting, again, a great idea from the City of Heroes playbook which Blizzard has overlooked (or implemented badly, where they did let people pick their difficulty). What one player can find challenging, another player might find mind-crushingly impossible, while yet another might find it a laughable faceroll (this is further complicated by pretty huge imbalances in class power for non-class scenarios and encounters). The Mythic dungeon stones are a step in the right direction, I'll admit, but I'd just assume that concept extend to more of the game, and make it more accessible to everyone, ie: Let me choose my difficulty.

[Psyren]

Perhaps, but the challenge factor can also be handled more gracefully by letting players dial in a difficulty setting, again, a great idea from the City of Heroes playbook which Blizzard has overlooked (or implemented badly, where they did let people pick their difficulty). What one player can find challenging, another player might find mind-crushingly impossible, while yet another might find it a laughable faceroll (this is further complicated by pretty huge imbalances in class power for non-class scenarios and encounters). The Mythic dungeon stones are a step in the right direction, I'll admit, but I'd just assume that concept extend to more of the game, and make it more accessible to everyone, ie: Let me choose my difficulty.

I haven't heard of anyone finding the artifact quests to be impossible. Really I see them as being no different than Proving Grounds - solo content to help teach you your spec and kit, only with a little less mechanical standardization and a little more tailoring to specific abilities and lore. If you make them multiplayer then you risk players who skipped to 100 acquiring their artifact and queueing up for group content without having the basics of their spec down, because those other players powered them through it all.

I think the current paradigm is totally fine.

[Icewraith]

I haven't heard of anyone finding the artifact quests to be impossible. Really I see them as being no different than Proving Grounds - solo content to help teach you your spec and kit, only with a little less mechanical standardization and a little more tailoring to specific abilities and lore. If you make them multiplayer then you risk players who skipped to 100 acquiring their artifact and queueing up for group content without having the basics of their spec down, because those other players powered them through it all.

I think the current paradigm is totally fine.

They really can't be challenging because they're how you unlock a core gameplay mechanic in the expansion. If you don't know what you're doing on your class (new player or alt, for instance), you might have an issue until you find the button you're supposed to be using, but now you know what that button does and what it's for before you go out into the world.

[The_Jackal]

I haven't heard of anyone finding the artifact quests to be impossible. Really I see them as being no different than Proving Grounds - solo content to help teach you your spec and kit, only with a little less mechanical standardization and a little more tailoring to specific abilities and lore. If you make them multiplayer then you risk players who skipped to 100 acquiring their artifact and queueing up for group content without having the basics of their spec down, because those other players powered them through it all.

I think the current paradigm is totally fine.

Sure, but I'm not necessarily referring to the artifact quests, which are, by necessity, pushovers, since they do have to cater to the lowest common denominator of player skill. Which kind of makes my point: If you put in a difficulty slider, and let people choose how hard they want to make the game, they'll get to make it engaging and fun for their level of skill. You can cater to the min-maxer and the casual player more readily, accommodate guilds and raid groups based on actually liking the people you play with, rather than having to cut players if they're not measuring up, and generally make the game a more enjoyable, sociable experience. Blizzard's laser-like focus on indulging the testosterone-fuelled elitist mentality, in my opinion, makes the game worse for the vast majority of players, while not really making the game measurably any better for the elitists.

[Psyren]

They really can't be challenging because they're how you unlock a core gameplay mechanic in the expansion. If you don't know what you're doing on your class (new player or alt, for instance), you might have an issue until you find the button you're supposed to be using, but now you know what that button does and what it's for before you go out into the world.

Sure, but I'm not necessarily referring to the artifact quests, which are, by necessity, pushovers, since they do have to cater to the lowest common denominator of player skill.

If not the artifact quests, I have to confess then that I'm confused as to what you ARE referring to, because every other bit of Legion content can be played in a group. Only the artifact stuff (brief) and Proving Grounds (unnecessary) can't be.

Professions are "soft-solo", in that only one of you will have the quest, but you can still help each other.

[TechnOkami]

So I recently (last night) got the Skada DPS tracker working on my computer.

Marksmanship Hunter's DPS is the Bee's Knee's, and Shadow Priest's DPS is... kind of awful. Like, bottom to second to last awful. And I mean I'm not some God DPS but the feeling of not even being that significant of a DPS isn't a good one.

I'm still gonna play it because it's fulfilling the Eldritch Horror fantasy for me, but I really hope they get buffed.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So I recently (last night) got the Skada DPS tracker working on my computer.

Marksmanship Hunter's DPS is the Bee's Knee's, and Shadow Priest's DPS is... kind of awful. Like, bottom to second to last awful. And I mean I'm not some God DPS but the feeling of not even being that significant of a DPS isn't a good one.

I'm still gonna play it because it's fulfilling the Eldritch Horror fantasy for me, but I really hope they get buffed.

Do you see Surrender to Madness? Shadow is literally bad unless you get to use that. The talent is literally holding the spec up.

[Ionbound]

The issue with Surrender to Madness is that, ya know. You die at the end. It's hard to keep up DPS outside of the execute phase of a boss, and god forbid you pop it in a PUG.

[Kish]

Wait, serious? Shadow priests are now built around talent-based suicide?

That's certainly not a move I would have expected Blizzard to make.

[ryuplaneswalker]

The issue with Surrender to Madness is that, ya know. You die at the end. It's hard to keep up DPS outside of the execute phase of a boss, and god forbid you pop it in a PUG.

Welcome to Shadow Priests.

Wait, serious? Shadow priests are now built around talent-based suicide?

That's certainly not a move I would have expected Blizzard to make.

Not on purpose but yeah..basically Shadow Priests have been warped around that single talent because it is so powerful.

[Ionbound]

That and the fact that their non-Voidform DPS is hilariously weak because it's all DoT based without any AoE and honestly only one non-dot DPS ability spread between Mind Blast (a useful but long CD nuke) and Mind Flay (absolute trash, even with Mind Spike). Once you get into Void Form things get better because your damage goes up so much on Mind Flay and Mind Blast to maybe make them one ability a piece, but yeah. It's pretty awful, especially outside of a raiding environment, to the point that I'm probably going to switch over to Holy Priest and roll up either a MM Hunter or Retadin.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Having lower DPS outside of Void Form isn't that bad, since void form DPS is fantastic, the real problem is S2M being SO powerful due to staying in void form for ages that they can't buff shadow priests without destorying balance.

2SM just needs either nerfed and made a part of the spec, or removed as a talent completely.