WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I wondered about that, actually. Is the game balanced to account for players loading all the "mandatory" addons? I can't actually remember what the game looks like without them, but I imagine a player who doesn't have them is missing a lot of information with regards to boss mechanics. You have those phase and ability timers, those buzzers which tell you if you're standing in fire, those messages which tell you which of your group is hit/about to be hit, and more I'm probably just taking for granted at this point.

[Sian]

Actuallly did my first raid with my guild add-less (well, AltasLoot, but that's hardly relevant for this debate), and the core game actually got a couple of features that you would have to have gone to Addons for back in BC/LK.

Sure there is a number of things that are more difficult but much of it is just a question of having situational awareness (Don't stand in fire), and the native page for boss abilities (accessed via map and pressing their icon) is at least as extensive as addons were back in the day.

[The_Jackal]

I wondered about that, actually. Is the game balanced to account for players loading all the "mandatory" addons? I can't actually remember what the game looks like without them, but I imagine a player who doesn't have them is missing a lot of information with regards to boss mechanics. You have those phase and ability timers, those buzzers which tell you if you're standing in fire, those messages which tell you which of your group is hit/about to be hit, and more I'm probably just taking for granted at this point.

I can't imagine getting 25 people to all do the right things without addons telling them what to do. IMO, the incredibly non-intuitive and non-informative game mechanics are the worst feature of WoW. For one thing, the same visual cues double for both 'gather in one spot' and 'get out of this spot', and you're relying on DBM or memory to recall which is which. Then there's the whole 'You've fought your way to confront Archimonde in Hellfire Citadel. Now everybody sit down and listen to a 15 minute strategy briefing while he politely waits for you to finish'. I've often observed that raiding has more in common with a square dance than an actual fight.

[Icewraith]

So I ran two of the mythics for the Kara attunement yesterday, and we had too many tanks and healers interested in going.

I've kept my dps Artifacts reasonably up to date and have two gold traits unlocked on each of them. So I went DPS.

I've had my loot spec set to "current" so that quest rewards and artifact skills for relics show up properly.

So of course, NOW the game decides to give me a legendary. So now I have the belt that gives bonuses to whirlwind.

At least the stats are nice.

But argh. Argh argh argh argh argh argh.

[The_Jackal]

So I ran two of the mythics for the Kara attunement yesterday, and we had too many tanks and healers interested in going.

I've kept my dps Artifacts reasonably up to date and have two gold traits unlocked on each of them. So I went DPS.

I've had my loot spec set to "current" so that quest rewards and artifact skills for relics show up properly.

So of course, NOW the game decides to give me a legendary. So now I have the belt that gives bonuses to whirlwind.

At least the stats are nice.

But argh. Argh argh argh argh argh argh.

You do realize that for everyone who's not yet seen a legendary yet (myself included), your gripe does qualify as first world problems. That said, yes, I commiserate. This is exactly why my loot spec is 'set it and forget it' on my primary spec. Then again, I'm switching my main to mage, so it's not like loot spec really means anything.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I wondered about that, actually. Is the game balanced to account for players loading all the "mandatory" addons? I can't actually remember what the game looks like without them, but I imagine a player who doesn't have them is missing a lot of information with regards to boss mechanics. You have those phase and ability timers, those buzzers which tell you if you're standing in fire, those messages which tell you which of your group is hit/about to be hit, and more I'm probably just taking for granted at this point.

Yes and no, They don't exactly balance around them however there are some high end boss fights that are impossible at gear level without them. You remember that Wracked Chaos thing Archimonde does? He hits the ENTIRE raid with that at once on Mythic, without Weak Auras to set up the way to avoid murdering everyone the mechanic would have been outright impossible to handle, and that is not just me saying that..that is one of the people who were involved with the World First Kill saying it.

[Spore]

I wondered about that, actually. Is the game balanced to account for players loading all the "mandatory" addons?

When I heal and I see a prompt of DBM to "move left a bit" and 33/40 do that, and 7 do not then I KNOW for a fact that at least 6 of them do not have the addons (a few of the movers see the crowd moving and move without DBM but that is besides the point).

I cannot recall in which interview with an encounter developer it was but it is certainly an open fact that the WoW dev team has to artificially increase the difficulty of content to make it challenging with addons. And this is why they can get away with sloppy graphical solutions like "fiery area means get out" and "other fiery area means get in".

On the plus side you can add a lot of depth into boss encounters which would otherwise overwhelm any large amount of players. But again playing "group dance dance revolution" is hardly something I call epic.

The last big raid I was in was Firelands, and fights like Alysrazor with the flying really make sense, but there are other fights like Majordomo (stand together? ok, now stand apart) or Lord Rhyolith's turning mechanics (hitting me on my left foot makes me turn left) feel forced. There are so cool things you could have made with a shapeshifting flame druid and a lava giant.

[Icewraith]

You do realize that for everyone who's not yet seen a legendary yet (myself included), your gripe does qualify as first world problems. That said, yes, I commiserate. This is exactly why my loot spec is 'set it and forget it' on my primary spec. Then again, I'm switching my main to mage, so it's not like loot spec really means anything.

On one hand, yeah, first world problems. On the other hand legendaries are mainly interesting and valuable for the gameplay changes. While other people get a potential game changer, I have an orange stat stick. With crit on it (bad for prot). This is the diet soda or light beer or low fat milk substitute cream cheese of legendaries.

Also, now I have much more incentive to farm up the resources for the final class hall research tier.

[The_Jackal]

On one hand, yeah, first world problems. On the other hand legendaries are mainly interesting and valuable for the gameplay changes. While other people get a potential game changer, I have an orange stat stick. With crit on it (bad for prot). This is the diet soda or light beer or low fat milk substitute cream cheese of legendaries.

Also, now I have much more incentive to farm up the resources for the final class hall research tier.

True! And I'm sure that if we all keep cracking at raids and dungeons, we'll get the legendaries we want. Now that the Overwatch Halloween event is over, I can get busy doing chain Heroics.

[Legoshrimp]

True! And I'm sure that if we all keep cracking at raids and dungeons, we'll get the legendaries we want. Now that the Overwatch Halloween event is over, I can get busy doing chain Heroics.

Is there any consensus on what the most efficient way to farm legends is?

[Icewraith]

Is there any consensus on what the most efficient way to farm legends is?

It sort of depends on how drops actually work. One of two strategies should be viable.

1- Go hard. Raid at the highest difficulty you can and run as much mythic + as you can. If harder difficulties dramatically increase the chances of a legendary dropping, this is the way to go.


2- Go often. Chain run mythic 5s or maybe even heroics. If the drop chance isn't much lower in a heroic than a mythic 5 man but you're killing bosses more frequently, you have more shots at whatever that tiny chance is that you'll get a legendary.

For reference, mine dropped off either the first or second random boss in Mythic Violet Hold.

[TechnOkami]

Query: between Bear Druids, Prot TWarriors/Paladins, Blood DK's, and Brewmaster Monks, which class do you feel has the easiest and/or best threat generation?

Note: i'm just curious as to what you all think, my fantasy of being a blood drinking warmonger through a Blood DK will be fulfilled either way regardless.

Spoiler: Actually, now that I think about it...

Show

...I never did state what the classes I decided on were.

They are as follows:
-Undead Marksmanship Hunter
-Night Elf Shadow Priest
-Worgen Balance Druid
-Worgen Blood Death Knight

-an Affliction Warlock
I'm still deciding on a race. I'm leaning towards a Horde toon since I'm so alliance heavy already, but I'm not sure yet.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

One of my guildmates seemed to think spamming heroic dungeons was a viable method to farm legendaries, but I personally wouldn't know.

[Sian]

Query: between Bear Druids, Prot TWarriors/Paladins, Blood DK's, and Brewmaster Monks, which class do you feel has the easiest and/or best threat generation?

What did Vengeance Demon Hunters do to you?

My experience is that threat generation is fairly simple and as long as you make a token effort, there aren't any issues being sticky against 1-3 targets.

Against packs, I'd say it would be a tie between Death Knights and Demon Hunters, with Paladins and Monks just behind, although this in no way means that Druid and Warrior are bad at it, they just don't have quite as efficient tools to work with, and even then it is more a question about the skill of the player than any classes mechanical abilities

[TechnOkami]

What did Vengeance Demon Hunters do to you?

So, like, there's this new thing called Legion, right?

The introduced a NEW class called the Demon Hunter, right?

I forgot Vengeance DH's existed.

I have my opinions on Demon Hunters. I'll refrain unless prompted.

[Kish]

Go on, let's hear them.

[Sian]

Are they any different than what people had in WotLK about Death Knights?

[The_Jackal]

Query: between Bear Druids, Prot TWarriors/Paladins, Blood DK's, and Brewmaster Monks, which class do you feel has the easiest and/or best threat generation?

Since every tank spec gets +900% threat on all damage inflicted, actually generating and keeping threat is a non-challenge, so all you've really got to differentiate between classes is 'how fast can class X spam AOE'. I believe that's going to wind up being Prot Warrior, with Thunderclap on a 6-second cooldown.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Since every tank spec gets +900% threat on all damage inflicted, actually generating and keeping threat is a non-challenge, so all you've really got to differentiate between classes is 'how fast can class X spam AOE'. I believe that's going to wind up being Prot Warrior, with Thunderclap on a 6-second cooldown.

Eh? Depend on the specific fight. Druid can Swipe-spam on the GCD, and has Thrash on something like an 8 second cooldown, plus Moonfire on the GCD for ranged pulls, making them really solid aggro grabbers with powerful AoE.

Warrior has Thunderclap + Revenge, and Heroic Throw in the GCD, which is a VERY good set of tools.

Paladin is probably the indisputable king of holding spawn aggro at a point, since Blessed Hammer + Consecration is just permanent AoE around them, but with only Taunt + Judgement + Shield for ranged pulls their ability to generate threat on distant targets or spread out spawns isn't as high.

Demon Hunters are a little odd -- I just don't think their fire field is reliable enough with its high down-time, and Glaive Toss is just Heroic Throw again.

Brewmasters can use Rushing Jade Wind forever if they spec into it but, like Paladins, don't have the most reliable ranged threat generation.

Can't say I know enough about Blood DKs to have much of an opinion.

----------------------

So overall? Druids and Warriors for being able to instantly grab AoE groups and ranged solo targets.

Paladins for being able to grab ANY mob spawning in their vicinity, or groups of mobs spawning together (Avenger's Shield).

Then everyone else.

[Anteros]

I can't imagine getting 25 people to all do the right things without addons telling them what to do. IMO, the incredibly non-intuitive and non-informative game mechanics are the worst feature of WoW. For one thing, the same visual cues double for both 'gather in one spot' and 'get out of this spot', and you're relying on DBM or memory to recall which is which. Then there's the whole 'You've fought your way to confront Archimonde in Hellfire Citadel. Now everybody sit down and listen to a 15 minute strategy briefing while he politely waits for you to finish'. I've often observed that raiding has more in common with a square dance than an actual fight.

We used to manage it with 40 people all the time.

[The Glyphstone]

We used to manage it with 40 people all the time.

The days of 40man raids had 'adds spawn in the middle of a fight' - Original Recipe Ragnaros - as an amazingly difficult and innovative mechanic people had to figure out how to deal with. The game has gotten just a bit more complex since then.

[Kish]

Seriously? Sure, the people who struggle with positioning now would have no trouble at all curing the various debuffs inflicted by Chromaggus before anyone turned into a drakonid (without any sort of notification, from addon or from the unmodded game, that the debuffs were there), killing the Corrupted Windfury totems that buff Nefarian before he slaughters the tank, or making sure they're on the right side of Thaddius in the seconds between each polar shift and the raid dying from massive electrical damage.

"Adds spawn in the middle of the fight" was a thing in Deadmines (and lots of other dungeons). I can't remember offhand if it was even lower level than that, in Ragefire Chasm, but it was certainly not ever presented as a shocking new raid mechanic.

[Icewraith]

One shot EN last night, someone else got a Legendary. We seem to be seeing about one a week in a fairly consistent group of 15-20 people.

[The_Jackal]

We used to manage it with 40 people all the time.

Yeah, except that the 40 man fights were a LOT simpler. Fights like Lucifron or Gehennas were tank and spank affairs with some decurse requirements, and most guilds had decursive to turn that chore into a one-button macro you could mash regularly. Even more complex fights like Razorgore were a picnic compared to the complete circus that fights like Ilganoth look like now are.

Could you do them without addons? Probably. But you'd wipe more often on the way there.

[Traab]

Can't say I know enough about Blood DKs to have much of an opinion.

----------------------

Now im a blood dk but I play that way solo because I like it so my tanking knowledge isnt the best. But offhand we get boil blood which is a pbaoe nuke, 2 casts on a timer, also applies a dot. Death and decay which is often free to cast, is a targeted aoe ability, we have death grip and gorefiends grip for nabbing long distance monsters, or spell casters, or just bunching everyone together. Heart strike automatically hits one extra target I think. Im just shooting off the cuff so I dont doubt that im missing some stuff. So blood dks have a pretty solid ability to grab the attention of everything nearby imo. Im not sure just how good they do as tanks in practice though, as I dont like to run dungeons as a tank.

[Icewraith]

Yeah, except that the 40 man fights were a LOT simpler. Fights like Lucifron or Gehennas were tank and spank affairs with some decurse requirements, and most guilds had decursive to turn that chore into a one-button macro you could mash regularly. Even more complex fights like Razorgore were a picnic compared to the complete circus that fights like Ilganoth look like now are.

Could you do them without addons? Probably. But you'd wipe more often on the way there.

How many classic bosses do you need to put together to get the mechanics of the first EN boss?

[Antonok]

Demon Hunters are a little odd -- I just don't think their fire field is reliable enough with its high down-time, and Glaive Toss is just Heroic Throw again.

Immolation Aura is only 1 of DHs AoE. You also have Soul Cleave, Sigil of Flame, Infernal Strike/augmented Infernal Strike*, and Spirit Bomb/Fel Devastation.

*Sigil of Flame has a DoT effect, which one of the talents you can take causes Infernal Strike to place a Sigil where you land.

[Anteros]

Yeah, except that the 40 man fights were a LOT simpler. Fights like Lucifron or Gehennas were tank and spank affairs with some decurse requirements, and most guilds had decursive to turn that chore into a one-button macro you could mash regularly. Even more complex fights like Razorgore were a picnic compared to the complete circus that fights like Ilganoth look like now are.

Could you do them without addons? Probably. But you'd wipe more often on the way there.

Maybe so, but I'd rather play the game and learn the fights than just do whatever a text box on the screen says to do next. That's so boring.

[TechnOkami]

Go on, let's hear them.

So, I was introduced to Illidan and Demon Hunter Metamorphosis back in Warcraft 3. Back then you turned into a black purple glowing shadow demon thing, and that's what I've always wanted a DH transformation to look like. But no, we get a more realistic Illidan-esque transformation rather than being wrapped in energy. It's one of the reasons I won't play a DH. I want it to look like the old transformation. That's all, really. I'm sure mechanically the class is fine, but it's not for me. It's not fulfilling my fantasy.

Since every tank spec gets +900% threat on all damage inflicted, actually generating and keeping threat is a non-challenge, so all you've really got to differentiate between classes is 'how fast can class X spam AOE'. I believe that's going to wind up being Prot Warrior, with Thunderclap on a 6-second cooldown.

Good to know. I won't ever really need to worry about it then.

[Sian]

Well, something I noticed when tanking with a Druid yesterday in EN (cleared with only a single wipe on spiderboss, due to dps stealing the healers' feathers, and one of the healers being hilariously bad at not falling off in the platform change), Is that I (As Demon Hunter), need to hold a bit back when tanking trash as all my AoE resources, (which is part of the regular rotation even if against single target), made it somewhat tricky for the Druid to get threat against a equal part of the group.

Might only be a question about Druids might having a bit to few tools or that Demon Hunters tools are a bit to widely used, but its still something to note.

And yeah, Between starting with Infernal Strike (augmented with placing Sigil of Flame) followed up with Immolation Aura, Demon Hunter might well be some of the best at generating threat against a group ... Soul Cleave and Spirit Bomb (both of which are also survival tools as they give health/effective leech) just makes it even less of a contest

For what its worth, I'm known to solo 2-3 Elites at a time, rarely if ever dipping under 50% health, simply because of all the native healing / leech that I get (Charred Warblades, giving 15% leech of Fire damage helps as well), in fact between Spirit Bomb and Charred Warblades, when a group of normal mobs get sufficiently large, it might well become even easier to survive because of all the leechy healing i get