Has anyone read "Villians by necessity"

[NecroDancer]

It costs a good amount of money but I really like it. It turns a bunch of tropes on their heads and has the weirdest Villians vs Heros dynamic (thinking about it makes my head hurt). The best part is theres only one "anti Heros" (maybe Kaylana is an antihero as well) and the anti Hero isn't filled with "wangst" like the majority of anti Heros. The book is awesome and I highly recommend it for any fans of fantasy.

[JDMSJR]

I have read it. I got lucky and bought it when it originally came out. I don't know if you can get it from the library but if you can, I would highly recommend it.

Basically the plot is traditional villians have to save the world from the ultimate triumph of good since one extreme is just as bad as the other.

[Flickerdart]

I have - the Merril Collection of the Toronto Public Library has a copy, but it's a reference-only book (you can read it in the library, but can't check it out).

[NecroDancer]

I got mine at a garage sale, it was pretty beat up but I managed to save it

[endoperez]

I've been wanting to read it ever since I read the synopsis years ago, but I've never actually seen a copy. Since I think has the same vibe, I'm going to highjack the thread and recommend something a bit similar that is easily accessible.

A web novel, Practical Guide to Evil, has a somewhat similar premise. It's more of a Young Adult book though, and it needs an editor and a publisher to become as good as it could be, but it's still very enjoyable.

In Practical Guide to Evil, stories influence what happens. Important people like Heroes and Villains are controlled by what previous heroes and villains have done. They each have a Name, with its own baggage. The protagonist is a young woman, orphaned when the Evil Empire won a decisive battle 20 years ago and conquered her Kingdom. She's grown up in the state orphanage, she's been well-cared-for, fed, given a basic education and an opportunity to become an apprentice and learn a trade. As it happens, struggling orphans turn into heroes, and the villains are well aware of this. It's more practical to fund some orphanages than to deal with all those would-be Thieves, Bumbling Magicians and Lone Swordsmen.

Our protagonist thinks her people's situation has been bad ever since the Legions of Terror took control, and someone should do something. However, she also sees that it's more practical to become a high-ranking legionary subservient to the Empire, than to overthrow the evil regime in a bloody war. As it happens, young people with an ambitious, dangerous goal and a desire for power and control turn into villains... and the villains are well aware of this. And the Black Knight needs a Squire.

It balances three sub-stories, each of which is interesting in its own way, and which come together quite well. First, it ponders about the nature of fate, heroes and villains, and Names. Second, it's a typical fantasy story about growing powers, both personal and political, and doing ever grander deeds. Third, it's a group dynamics thing about the protagonist's masters, and of her underlings.

[BiblioRook]

Oh man, this is easily one of my favorite books but I don't think I ever ran into anyone else that has also read it due to how rare/obscure it is... It's frustrating because I work with a volunteer library that focuses on Sci-Fi and Fantasy and I desperately wish to get a copy of Villains by Necessity into it but getting a hold of a copy is just so difficult to come by easily (Never mind trying to get a second reading copy for myself as the copy I already have is tucked away in storage).

Anyways I just always really liked anti-heroes as well as the concept of Good and Evil as a Balance, not to mention that this book just really makes the side of Good seem horrifying in context.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

A web novel, Practical Guide to Evil, has a somewhat similar premise. It's more of a Young Adult book though, and it needs an editor and a publisher to become as good as it could be, but it's still very enjoyable.

Seconding this recommendation. Easily in my top 3 favourite serials at the moment. An editor would make it amazing, but as is it's got some very solid characters and character development, hilarious banter and is all set in a very interesting world.

[Bobb]

Anyways I just always really liked anti-heroes as well as the concept of Good and Evil as a Balance, not to mention that this book just really makes the side of Good seem horrifying in context.

How so? I'm having a hard time conceptualizing that as anything I can think of goes straight into "well then that's not good and they're really evil."

[Flickerdart]

How so? I'm having a hard time conceptualizing that as anything I can think of goes straight into "well then that's not good and they're really evil."

It's been a while, but my recollection of the "necessity" that drives the villains (formerly, largely Neutral guys) is:

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Good wins, and I mean wins - they seal away the source of evil energy that enters the world. However, it turns out that this is not a good thing for the cosmology, as the balance of forces is now out of whack. The good guys don't know it, but the world will be destroyed unless the source is released again. The protagonists must unleash evil unto the world, making them villains, in order to save it.

Basically, it's one of the true cases where a Greater Good exists, and can only be achieved with Evil means that Good characters would never resort to.

[Bobb]

Cool. That is much appreciated.

[BiblioRook]

For anyone curious the main characters consist of an assassin, a thief, a demonic sorceress, a mysterious dark knight, a random centaur, and the last of the druids who orchestrated the mission in the first place...

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You see, Druids being 'Neutral' had to seek balance whenever possible. During the War between Good and Evil they were originally on the side of Good, but when Good started winning the Druids tried to say 'Okay that's enough' but Good wouldn't hear of it, so the Druids switched sides for the sake of Balance. Unfortunately not only did this have the result of the side of Good seeing them as traitors and treating them as enemies but also the side of Evil remembered all to well that they were just recently on the side of Good and didn't trust them and continued treating them as enemies. And so, being cut down on both sides, the Druids were quickly nearly wiped out.

Basically, it's one of the true cases where a Greater Good exists, and can only be achieved with Evil means that Good characters would never resort to.

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The major conflict, aside from the need to resort Balance, ends up coming from the side of Good trying to pursue a world that is so purely 'Good' that it overrides free-will. Anything irredeemably 'Evil' (like demons or monsters) are killed off just for existing and anything that could be 'saved' (like thieves and assassins) are 'fixed' (whether they want to be or not). Turns out this 'fixing' involves mind-wiping the individual and replacing it with a 'friendly' persona.

[Sholos]

For anyone curious the main characters consist of an assassin, a thief, a demonic sorceress, a mysterious dark knight, a random centaur, and the last of the druids who orchestrated the mission in the first place...

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You see, Druids being 'Neutral' had to seek balance whenever possible. During the War between Good and Evil they were originally on the side of Good, but when Good started winning the Druids tried to say 'Okay that's enough' but Good wouldn't hear of it, so the Druids switched sides for the sake of Balance. Unfortunately not only did this have the result of the side of Good seeing them as traitors and treating them as enemies but also the side of Evil remembered all to well that they were just recently on the side of Good and didn't trust them and continued treating them as enemies. And so, being cut down on both sides, the Druids were quickly nearly wiped out.

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The major conflict, aside from the need to resort Balance, ends up coming from the side of Good trying to pursue a world that is so purely 'Good' that it overrides free-will. Anything irredeemably 'Evil' (like demons or monsters) are killed off just for existing and anything that could be 'saved' (like thieves and assassins) are 'fixed' (whether they want to be or not). Turns out this 'fixing' involves mind-wiping the individual and replacing it with a 'friendly' persona.

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I would argue that in such a society "Good" has clearly lost. If all evil had been banished from the world as proposed, why would anyone feel the need to steal or kill?

[Bobb]

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The major conflict, aside from the need to resort Balance, ends up coming from the side of Good trying to pursue a world that is so purely 'Good' that it overrides free-will. Anything irredeemably 'Evil' (like demons or monsters) are killed off just for existing and anything that could be 'saved' (like thieves and assassins) are 'fixed' (whether they want to be or not). Turns out this 'fixing' involves mind-wiping the individual and replacing it with a 'friendly' persona.

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Now that's just not even remotely good and if the good faction hasn't even splintered over that than I wouldn't find the premise compelling.

Seriously, a society that is mind wiping thieves while there are still demons roaming about and calls itself good is actually idiotic.

[BiblioRook]

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I would argue that in such a society "Good" has clearly lost. If all evil had been banished from the world as proposed, why would anyone feel the need to steal or kill?

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Well poverty might still exist so it stands to reason that theft might as well (though it doesn't really seem like the thieves steal out of any need but rather for the challenge of doing so) and it's not as if the assassins themselves might be evil but rather that they provide a service that is taken advantage by evil people. The book basically starts with the assassin and the thief sitting around moping over the fact that basically any and all call for their areas of expertise have effectively completely dried up and that they were now obsolete.

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Now that's just not even remotely good and if the good faction hasn't even splintered over that than I wouldn't find the premise compelling.

Seriously, a society that is mind wiping thieves while there are still demons roaming about and calls itself good is actually idiotic.

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Well the fact that this is how things are happening is hardly common knowledge, it's really just the actions of a single person, the last known remaining member of the party of Heroes that took down and sealed away Evil in the first place hundreds of years ago which turned the tide of the war (He's an elf which are long lived which is why he's basically the only one still around*) and is now basically the de facto ruler of things. The... 'Big Good' as it were. Most of the rest of the world doesn't really concern themselves with just how the world as a whole has been in a state of peace and goodness and if I remember correctly not even the people who work for the elf guy really seem aware of just hat he's been doing other then that they seek out 'troublemakers' and he 'takes care of them'. I mean, taking things away from the prospective of the protagonists and to the 'good guy's' side of things, this legendary hero comes to you and says that this ragtag group of ne'erdowells are trying to bring Evil back into the world, that alone sounds like a working plot to any number of fantasy novels (which is the point), it would take a very questioning mind to say 'Well, how do we know that that's a bad thing?'
It's also probably important to know that it's not like he just did this all at once but rather has been doing it slowly over a hundred years or so...

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Spoiler: No really

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The fact that he isn't is probably my favorite twist in the book and I'm torn at if I should really say anything further on it, if even just saying that might be giving to much away.

[Eldan]

That's not good. That's... I don't even know what to call it. Fascist? Evil, anway.

[BiblioRook]

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Trust me, as the book goes on there are far clearer examples of him being pretty well evil in his own right, but even then (or at least in his mind) more often then not it's still doing evil for 'the greater good'. Maybe a moral in 'power corrupts? Or maybe even suggesting that in a world without Evil that the world seeks to balance itself? In any case I imagine that he was pretty much a shade of grey more then pure white back in the times of his Legendary Hero days and the burden of having to act as such a beacon of Goodness for so long (alone and unchecked no less) really might have pushed him over the edge.

[Bobb]

As someone who's "been intending to get around to reading that Dune series everyone is talking about" for more than four years now I can assure you I will never track down this rare manuscript and would be interested in a summary.

[BiblioRook]

Hmm. Well, there was a definitive battle between Good and Evil where Good won and sealed Evil away forever. Years later the last of the druids came to realize that without Evil in the world the world was being thrown off Balance and could soon even destroy itself as a result and so took it upon herself to recruit the last few remnants of villainy she could find to go and reverse the seal Evil was put under. Meanwhile the last of the Legendary Heroes who helped seal Evil away in the first place seeks to stop them, not believing the whole 'the world will be destroyed due to a lack of Balance' nonsense.

Sorry if that was brief, it's been years since I've had the chance to reread this book. God do I really want to now.

[Bobb]

Nice. If I ever run into it I'll have a look.