Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[PeteNutButter]

Your sorcerer write up has some inaccuracies. The font of magic feature let's them re-gain spell slots and you can cast a cantrip the same turn you cast a quicken spell. Granted the sorcerer has to choose between more spells vrs enhanced spells while a wizard has both, the comparison is not as bleek as you make it out to be.

Personality I would compare sorcerer with the other charisma casting classes instead of wizard due to the perceived difference between intelligence and Charisma.

Maybe the are the points the troll would make if they weren't trolling? I think it's a great guide and very helpful.

I specifically say you can't cast another "leveled spell" with quicken, and acknowledge the strength of cantrip spamming especially in conjunction with Eldritch Blast.

My point is that the sorcerer single classed is weaker than the wizard single classed. With multiclassing the sorcerer is actually much stronger, in part due to the breadth of options for SADness in charisma. Take the quicken cantrip and cast cantrip example. A draconic sorcerer doing 4d10+8 in two firebolts at level 9 isn't bad for two sorcery points, but dealing 4d10+12 that can be spread out and potentially pushing foes is far deadlier (and almost never resisted).

Keeping at level 9, the wizard will get back a 5th level spell on short rest or perhaps a 2nd and a 3rd. To do the same thing the sorcerer would have to spend 7 or 8 out of their 9 sorcery points which means they won't be doing much metamagic. The sorcerer does have a significant advantage in being able to do these things in combat.

Let's talk about that metamagic. Metamagic is fantastic. Quicken allows the sorcerer to put out more burst damage than a wizard, quicken fireball, firebolt, etc. Subtle can prevent countering outright, and Careful is great at save or suck spells (provided they are save once only). As you mentioned though, the wizard get similar effects for free, based on their subclass. The wizard gets to have their cake and eat it too.

The thing that takes the cake is the wizard having more spells prepared. I just don't get how they thought it was balanced to have the wizard be able to prepare more spells than the sorcerer even knows and then potentially change them all the next day. Wizards are far more likely to have the right spell for the occasion which cannot be overstated. The "right spell" is the one that wins the combat.

Wizards get "free" no prep required rituals. Wizards also have several game breaking spells that are mysteriously absent from the sorcerer list, such as Simulacrum.

I'm not saying the single classed sorcerer is worthless or that he is bad, just that he is outclassed by the wizard. The sorcerer has its perks that will sometimes make theme excel, but they quite don't bridge the gap. Throw in multiclassing though and the wizard is the one behind.

That is just my opinion, coming from a player that has always preferred the sorcerer over the wizard. I just multiclass mine in this edition.

[Whit]

I personally agree with a wizard being more apt at utility compared to a single class sorcerer. And that a sorcerer multi cha comes out ahead. A sorcerer paladin or bladelock can quicken a X spell fireball e.g. and then go melee 2 attacks

[Ryzel]

Hey! First off thanks a ton for this guide, it's been very insightful reading it.

I noticed you only cover published, AL legal content, but I had a question about a UA subclass (which apparently will be in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica come November!) Going off the current UA form of Spore Druid, how well would you say it meshes with the Monk class? I was contemplating a Kensei Monk 6/Spore Druid everything else build because it seemed fun and interesting, but it would be cool if I could get away with doing a Shadow Monk instead and maybe doing Spear Mastery for the better weapon damage...I'd start at level 2, was thinking Monk 1/Druid 1 to start, then getting Druid 2 for Spore class, then doing Monk to 5 or 6, then rest Druid.

Anyway, if Spore Druid were AL legal do you think that would drastically change how well Monk/Druid or Druid/Monk would synergize (e.g. sky blue instead of blue)? And what would your thoughts be about dipping Ranger for Hunter's Mark to get even more crazy on-hit damage procs?

[PeteNutButter]

Hey! First off thanks a ton for this guide, it's been very insightful reading it.

I noticed you only cover published, AL legal content, but I had a question about a UA subclass (which apparently will be in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica come November!) Going off the current UA form of Spore Druid, how well would you say it meshes with the Monk class? I was contemplating a Kensei Monk 6/Spore Druid everything else build because it seemed fun and interesting, but it would be cool if I could get away with doing a Shadow Monk instead and maybe doing Spear Mastery for the better weapon damage...I'd start at level 2, was thinking Monk 1/Druid 1 to start, then getting Druid 2 for Spore class, then doing Monk to 5 or 6, then rest Druid.

Anyway, if Spore Druid were AL legal do you think that would drastically change how well Monk/Druid or Druid/Monk would synergize (e.g. sky blue instead of blue)? And what would your thoughts be about dipping Ranger for Hunter's Mark to get even more crazy on-hit damage procs?

I'd say it's a pretty strong combo. Get free damage per every attack? Get max attacks ASAP and take monk. Although the poison damage is a pretty big drawback.

In fairness though, most UA classes start pretty overpowered and get watered down by the time they publish them (usually too much IMO). We'll see how it turns out. I'll update the guide whenever it does. I certainly like the idea of the of a melee druid.

As for your general build. Spear mastery is a great feat for a variant human but otherwise you're better off boosting dex usually. The rest seems about spot on.

[Corran]

In the cleric/wizard section, the sample build's (forge cleric 8/ war wizard 2) stats are off, unless I am missing something.

Btw, I love how inspiring your fluff text (along with the nice pictures you have found) is when discussing the various multiclass combinations. Certainly a place to look for inspiration whenever I am out of ideas and need a character pronto.

ps: Also, loved that you included sentinel -and riposte- (and the possibility of shield master on a str variant) on the rogue/fighter build. Really nice catch this one!

[PeteNutButter]

In the cleric/wizard section, the sample build's (forge cleric 8/ war wizard 2) stats are off, unless I am missing something.

Just ran it again, and stats look fine. It is regular non-variant human though, so that might be throwing you off.

Btw, I love how inspiring your fluff text (along with the nice pictures you have found) is when discussing the various multiclass combinations. Certainly a place to look for inspiration whenever I am out of ideas and need a character pronto.

ps: Also, loved that you included sentinel -and riposte- (and the possibility of shield master on a str variant) on the rogue/fighter build. Really nice catch this one!

Thanks, glad you enjoy it!

[Amemnon91]

This tool is amazing!

[ThatDuckGrant]

Pete,

A couple things. First, this guide is fantastic and I’ve had it open on my phones browser in its own tab for months as I work on trying to build a new character that I really like, so thank you. Second, it’s amazing to see that you’re still responding to replies two years after your original post. That’s awesome!

Lastly, I really like the bard/warlock build, but I’m having trouble with progression. I want to go with 5 levels of hexblade along with 15 of whispers bard. The problem I keep running into though is when to take levels 3-5 of warlock. It seems like an incredibly slow build to still be casting level 3 spells at total level 11, and not get your first magical secrets picks until 15, but waiting on warlock rules out misty step, counterspell, and Eldritch smites until incredibly late levels.

Does anyone have any experience actually leveling a bard/warlock? How did you do it, and did you feel behind?

[PeteNutButter]

Pete,

A couple things. First, this guide is fantastic and I’ve had it open on my phones browser in its own tab for months as I work on trying to build a new character that I really like, so thank you. Second, it’s amazing to see that you’re still responding to replies two years after your original post. That’s awesome!

Lastly, I really like the bard/warlock build, but I’m having trouble with progression. I want to go with 5 levels of hexblade along with 15 of whispers bard. The problem I keep running into though is when to take levels 3-5 of warlock. It seems like an incredibly slow build to still be casting level 3 spells at total level 11, and not get your first magical secrets picks until 15, but waiting on warlock rules out misty step, counterspell, and Eldritch smites until incredibly late levels.

Does anyone have any experience actually leveling a bard/warlock? How did you do it, and did you feel behind?

Glad you enjoy the guide.

Why do you want levels 3-5 in warlock? I've seen the build in action and you really only need the two warlock levels.

If you intend to primarily be martial with hexblade blade pact, get warlock 5 from the start and then go bard from there. Getting extra attack (effectively) as soon as possible will keep you from falling behind in damage.

[ThatDuckGrant]

The idea for the build is actually to maximize tensers transformation as a 14th level MS pick. The issue is that I’m either giving up Eldritch smite or not getting TT until lvl 19.

Half drow 10 14 16 10 8 17
4 ASIs: Elv Ac cha 18, cha 20, War Caster, Xbow expert or something else if I have a ring of spell storing or can’t find a magical hXbow.

So with TT I’d have 3 attacks at triple A dealing 2d12+1d6 each. Then I could use psychic blades and Eldritch smite on any crit for stupid amounts of damage. I ran the math and accounting for fighting a creature with 24 AC the average damage per round is like 110, with single crit damage of 4d12+8d8+16d6 for ~125.

[ThatDuckGrant]

Why do you want levels 3-5 in warlock?

Also for counterspell, that saves me a whole magical secrets pick.

[PeteNutButter]

The idea for the build is actually to maximize tensers transformation as a 14th level MS pick. The issue is that I’m either giving up Eldritch smite or not getting TT until lvl 19.

Half drow 10 14 16 10 8 17
4 ASIs: Elv Ac cha 18, cha 20, War Caster, Xbow expert or something else if I have a ring of spell storing or can’t find a magical hXbow.

So with TT I’d have 3 attacks at triple A dealing 2d12+1d6 each. Then I could use psychic blades and Eldritch smite on any crit for stupid amounts of damage. I ran the math and accounting for fighting a creature with 24 AC the average damage per round is like 110, with single crit damage of 4d12+8d8+16d6 for ~125.

Also for counterspell, that saves me a whole magical secrets pick.

Considering the point of the build is TT, I'd just delay on the warlock until I had that. 14th level is probably higher than most campaigns even get as it is.

[Avera9eJoe]

I registered first for the sake of saying thank you for this guide - this has been an innumerable help with my bardlock, and now his daughter a rogue-bard :) Thank you so much!

[PeteNutButter]

I registered first for the sake of saying thank you for this guide - this has been an innumerable help with my bardlock, and now his daughter a rogue-bard :) Thank you so much!

Glad you enjoy it. Happy to be of service.

[justken]

Hello,

Like others, I signed up to this forum to say THANK YOU for your multiclass guidelines.

I am in my 50's, and have two kids who are now learning D&D. Thanks to you we have a paladin 3 /warlock 1 and a monk 3 /rogue 1. At 8 and 10 years old, they are having a blast. Well done.

Ken

[Maxilian]

Didn't read the whole guide, but i will point out something about this MC: Monk/Druid

1- You have an example of Monk Sun Soul X / Moon Druid 5, and point out flying creatures, you need to be at least lvl 8 in Druid to transform into flying creatures.

2- Have in mind that UA works in any animal form, so its a good dip (not OP or anything), as its basically 20+ Temp HP and more movement + the extra abilities given by the animal form.

[PeteNutButter]

Hello,

Like others, I signed up to this forum to say THANK YOU for your multiclass guidelines.

I am in my 50's, and have two kids who are now learning D&D. Thanks to you we have a paladin 3 /warlock 1 and a monk 3 /rogue 1. At 8 and 10 years old, they are having a blast. Well done.

Ken

Thanks, glad you enjoy it.

Didn't read the whole guide, but i will point out something about this MC: Monk/Druid

1- You have an example of Monk Sun Soul X / Moon Druid 5, and point out flying creatures, you need to be at least lvl 8 in Druid to transform into flying creatures.

2- Have in mind that UA works in any animal form, so its a good dip (not OP or anything), as its basically 20+ Temp HP and more movement + the extra abilities given by the animal form.

Nice catch. I'll update it.

[Particle_Man]

Cool idea! Do you also have a section for three class or four (or more!) class builds?

[Tronyc]

Character creation challenge:

You must multiclass 1 level in each class before you can attain level 2 in any class (meaning you may achieve level 2 in a class at your 13th character level, and the highest attainable level in any one class is 9). Stat restrictions do not apply for your first level in a given class, but apply for all other levels.

• What is your base class?
• What order do you pick your other classes?
• Assuming you reach level 20, what is your final breakdown?
• What are your stats? (assuming 27 point buy)
• What race do you choose?
• Do you have any feats?
• What subclasses do you pick?
• Do you prestige?
• What are your spell picks?
• What weapons and armor will you use?
• What is your role in the party?
• What is your story?

[Lionlore]

I think a one or two level wizard dip for a sorcerer is incredibly underrated. The fact that it overlaps is actually the strength, since it lets you ditch every first level sorcerer spell known for higher level ones. Spells known are incredibly precious things for sorcerers so why waste them on things like shield and mage armor which aren't even casting ability dependent. And then you get ritual casting and a pile of cantrips on top of that. You also get the flexibility to prepare a situationally useful spell like like featherfall on a particular day, whereas you could never really afford to have such spells otherwise.

Really the only thing that doesn't make it always one of the strongest options for a sorcerer is the MADness. But if you rolled stats and ended up with mostly highish ability scores I'd bump wizard dip up to light blue. If your DM makes opportunities to copy down first level spells plentiful I'd make it gold.

[BaconAwesome]

IMHO, that's a great case for a one level dip, which gets you six level 1 spells known, three extra cantrips, the ability to copy any level 1 spells you find, and the ability to ritually cast level 1 wizard spells.

Level 2 is harder to justify unless you're getting an overpowered level 2 arcane school ability (i.e., unless you're going diviner or maybe bladesinger). Other than that, it just delays your sorcerer spells by another level in return for having 3 wizard spells prepared instead of 2.

[PeteNutButter]

I think a one or two level wizard dip for a sorcerer is incredibly underrated. The fact that it overlaps is actually the strength, since it lets you ditch every first level sorcerer spell known for higher level ones. Spells known are incredibly precious things for sorcerers so why waste them on things like shield and mage armor which aren't even casting ability dependent. And then you get ritual casting and a pile of cantrips on top of that. You also get the flexibility to prepare a situationally useful spell like like featherfall on a particular day, whereas you could never really afford to have such spells otherwise.

Really the only thing that doesn't make it always one of the strongest options for a sorcerer is the MADness. But if you rolled stats and ended up with mostly highish ability scores I'd bump wizard dip up to light blue. If your DM makes opportunities to copy down first level spells plentiful I'd make it gold.

I specifically use point buy as a basis in the guide so there is a variety in colors. If MADness weren't a major factor, pretty much anything could be blue or gold.

Personally I don't see that worth missing out on the higher level sorcerer spells, to get more of what you could have gotten with sorcerer. Maybe after you have 9th level spells, but that's not saying much. Any caster can dip into anything caster for the last 3 levels.

[Spo]

I can echo what many have stated before: Excellent job. Your efforts are very much appreciated and I refer to this guide often.

Looking at making a paladin and instead of dipping into warlock for some range/hex goodness, what about going variant human with the magic initiate feat and grabbing blast and hex that way? What are your thoughts about that approach? Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.

Again thanks for the guide.

[PeteNutButter]

I can echo what many have stated before: Excellent job. Your efforts are very much appreciated and I refer to this guide often.

Looking at making a paladin and instead of dipping into warlock for some range/hex goodness, what about going variant human with the magic initiate feat and grabbing blast and hex that way? What are your thoughts about that approach? Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.

Again thanks for the guide.

Glad you enjoy the guide.

My general rule of thumb is if I can get something from a 1 level dip into a class than it isn't worth an ASI. ASIs only come every 4 levels, and levels come... well, every level. This isn't a hard fast rule, as there are certain cases were you can't afford to MC, but when comparing various characters it's a good rule of thumb. The magic initiate feat tends to not be worth it in my mind, unless you can't afford the required 13 to MC, or have to stay single classed. There are just so many better feats. (The same is true for the prodigy feat which simulates a rogue level. You are usually going to be better off taking that rogue level if you can afford a 13 dex.)

In your particular mentioned case, the biggest strength of dipping warlock on a paladin is hexblade giving cha to attack and damage rolls to make the character SAD. With that you only need cha for everything. It's extremely potent and quite likely the best 1 level dip in the entire game. Eldritch blast isn't that great without the agonizing blast invocation requiring warlock 2, and none of the spells are really worth investing the feat in. You are better off taking that warlock level, and grabbing PAM, or a similar strong feat that matches your preferred weapon choice.

[Ihazturtlez]

Not to be THAT guy or anything, but is there another guide that uses the UA Ranger or other nonpublished materials?

[PeteNutButter]

Not to be THAT guy or anything, but is there another guide that uses the UA Ranger or other non-published materials?

Not that I know of. It's worth noting that the UA content is explicitly not balanced for multiclassing. Many UA classes are very front-loaded which would make them extremely powerful dips. I've seen them in game with MCing and it is indeed out of line with other classes. Pretty much every UA class/subclass ends up getting a fair amount of nerfing before it hits print.

If someone else wants to make such a guide they are welcome to it, but for the above reasons I stick to published book materials only.

[Lyracian]

First thank you this is a great guide having only recently started playing Fifth Ed I am really enjoying this.

Following on from the recent comments I would have also thought Sorcerer with Wizard dip would be Black not Purple based on the guidelines you put.
Black: This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
Purple: You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.

Your Rogue/Barbarian and Barbarian/Rogue are both listed with the suggestion of Shield Master. With the new official ruling of Shield Bash after attack does that change your thoughts on this class? I was actually thinking it was a way to make use of the free Medium Armour on a Mountain Dwarf starting as Rogue and then getting Shield proficiency with multi-classing Barbarian.

If you were going to put a Trickster/Wizard to Level 20 would you go with AT13/W7 or AT12/W8?
Neither give any extra spell slots and the 1 extra spell known/prepared sort of balance. That leave the Wizard with an extra ASI versus the Tricksters +1d6 Sneak Attack and, the somewhat weak, "Versatile Trickster". I was thinking the extra boost of Con or Int may be better than the damage?

A few mistakes I noticed
Rogue - Last Sentence has a spare "m"
Despite losing 3d6 SA dice, the math favors 5 levels in another martial class for extra attackm, compared to a single (non-cantrip) attack.

Did you change the Race as these do not seem to be a 27 point buys?
Rogue/Bard - Half Elf 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
Rogue/Druid - Wood Elf 8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
Rogue/Fighter - Human 8, 16, 16, 8, 14, 8
Rogue/Sorcerer - Half Elf 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16

[PeteNutButter]

First thank you this is a great guide having only recently started playing Fifth Ed I am really enjoying this.

Following on from the recent comments I would have also thought Sorcerer with Wizard dip would be Black not Purple based on the guidelines you put.
Black: This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
Purple: You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.

It's the MADness that makes it purple. Pretty much all the combos that are MAD end up purple. Sparing a 13 int in point buy for a sorcerer really mess up the stats. And there really isn't that much to gain, IMO. It's some low level utility vs high level spells. High level spells take it easily. But since you're not the first to mention it, I'll have to give it a try in game, maybe see what I'm missing...

Your Rogue/Barbarian and Barbarian/Rogue are both listed with the suggestion of Shield Master. With the new official ruling of Shield Bash after attack does that change your thoughts on this class? I was actually thinking it was a way to make use of the free Medium Armour on a Mountain Dwarf starting as Rogue and then getting Shield proficiency with multi-classing Barbarian.

Depending on how SM works with your DM, I'd avoid it if it doesn't work before the attack. But since barbarians can recklessly attack, this doesn't really hurt them much. Probably more of a nerf to fighter/rogues. I'd probably start barbarian for the str/con saves and a few more hp, though you lose out on one skill. Eiher way works. Still a strong combo.

If you were going to put a Trickster/Wizard to Level 20 would you go with AT13/W7 or AT12/W8?
Neither give any extra spell slots and the 1 extra spell known/prepared sort of balance. That leave the Wizard with an extra ASI versus the Tricksters +1d6 Sneak Attack and, the somewhat weak, "Versatile Trickster". I was thinking the extra boost of Con or Int may be better than the damage?

I don't typically plan for 20 level builds, but if I were trying to be an effective stealthy caster I'd stop at AT 9. That's the best feature in the subclass and it's divisible by 3. I know the next level is an ASI, but if you're a caster you can already have a 20 by that point and they don't need much more. If I were aiming to be a rogue that just dabbles in spellcasting, I'd just take 2 levels of wizard, and focus on attacking.

A few mistakes I noticed
Rogue - Last Sentence has a spare "m"
Despite losing 3d6 SA dice, the math favors 5 levels in another martial class for extra attackm, compared to a single (non-cantrip) attack.

Did you change the Race as these do not seem to be a 27 point buys?
Rogue/Bard - Half Elf 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
Rogue/Druid - Wood Elf 8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
Rogue/Fighter - Human 8, 16, 16, 8, 14, 8
Rogue/Sorcerer - Half Elf 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16

Thanks. Fixed the errors.

[gunrgbcr]

Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
If going S&B mixing in a level of hexblade at some point makes the character SAD
Sry on the noobies but i play the game in diff language so i dont know whats sad and mad means, i figured out what asi means but its hard to understand what you mean cuz you spaming those terms and idk what they means :(

[PeteNutButter]

Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
If going S&B mixing in a level of hexblade at some point makes the character SAD
Sry on the noobies but i play the game in diff language so i dont know whats sad and mad means, i figured out what asi means but its hard to understand what you mean cuz you spaming those terms and idk what they means :(

Sorry, I had initially included a glossary of terms, but had to cut it due to space. I might be able to squeeze it back in somehow. Ironically, its the same lack of space that drives me to use these acronyms instead of spelling everything out.

S&B means Sword and Board. Refers to any playstyle that relies on using any 1-handed weapon and a shield.

SAD is an acronym that means Single Attribute Dependence. If you only need charisma for all your classes to work, your character is SAD.

MAD is an acronym that means Multiple Attribute Dependence. If your character needs charisma, wisdom, dex, and con your character is MAD.

I have plans to update and tighten some things in this guide in the future, but at the moment I'm working on other projects. This guide is currently 3rd in the queue.