Civ VI Discussion

[moossabi]

Have you also cleared the resource, though? I think that's a separate action a builder can do rather than building a plantation or whatever.

The clear button isn't coming up.

[factotum]

OK, I just completed my second game--got a cultural victory as China this time. Chose Shuffle for map type and I think it gave me an archipelago, but I was lucky enough to start on a fairly large island so was able to get 5 cities down before having to sail anywhere. Even without any campus districts I was way ahead of everyone else from the get-go--I think my closest competitor in science had 40 techs to my 55 at the end of the game, and I'd completed the civic tech tree and done about 6 repeats of Globalisation.

The wars, though...that was ridiculous. According to the Replay graph at the end I had war declared on me 34 times during the course of the game (it was a Huge map with 11 other civs). Wouldn't have minded so much but Cleopatra, who was actually my friend (I was even allied to her at one point), was one of the main culprits! I expect the people who hate me to constantly declare war on me, but it gets annoying when my friends do it too. They really need to fix that.

So, won two games at Prince difficulty, guess I need to dial it up a bit for the next game!

[VoxRationis]

Brazil's unique unit irritates me. Not only is it kind of odd for the civ as a whole (it doesn't have anything to do with jungles, it doesn't generate great people points or work with happiness mechanics), but it is needlessly much better than the generic version, as well as being available earlier in all likelihood. It irritates me that Britain, the shining historical example of a maritime empire and the people who actually built the Minas Geraes ships, has no unique naval unit, while Brazil does. That said, I am amused by the idea of a science-lite, culture-heavy Brazilian timing push on naval maps.

[5ColouredWalker]

It irritates me that Britain, the shining historical example of a maritime empire and the people who actually built the Minas Geraes ships, has no unique naval unit

Sea Dog, unlocked by Merchantilism instead of the Priateer.

[VoxRationis]

Well, I stand corrected. Still, it bothers me that the people who built Dreadnought get no credit for it, while the people who ordered a couple from them get a unique unit of that type.

[factotum]

This is the problem with having only one generic "battleship" unit. In the real world, a Minaes Geraes class battleship wouldn't have lasted half an hour in a fight against the Bismarck, Yamato, or other WW2 battleship, and why would you expect them to considering there's 30-odd years of technological development in between the two designs? However, in the game a battleship is a battleship, so once they made the decision to make Brazil's unique unit one, it had to be better than other battleships or there was no point in even having it there.

[Maryring]

They really should've just reused a unique infantry for Brazil, and yes, had it focus on Brazil and not being a generic better unit. Bonus Great Person Points, or Bonus Production towards Carnivals for combat victories for example.

[VoxRationis]

This is the problem with having only one generic "battleship" unit. In the real world, a Minaes Geraes class battleship wouldn't have lasted half an hour in a fight against the Bismarck, Yamato, or other WW2 battleship, and why would you expect them to considering there's 30-odd years of technological development in between the two designs? However, in the game a battleship is a battleship, so once they made the decision to make Brazil's unique unit one, it had to be better than other battleships or there was no point in even having it there.

True. That said, I think the fact that the Minas Geraes are available through culture rather than science is a good difference to start with. The unit doesn't necessarily have to be that different if the means of acquiring it is different. Maybe make it gold-buy only, with a significant discount vs. a battleship.

[Maryring]

Good grief, the jump from King to Emperor is insane. King is incredibly easy to the point that I never struggle. On Emperor, I somehow end up behind in every metric despite having twice as many cities as my opponent. And I really have to wonder how my opponent can be ahead of me in culture when he has far fewer great works.

[Rockphed]

Good grief, the jump from King to Emperor is insane. King is incredibly easy to the point that I never struggle. On Emperor, I somehow end up behind in every metric despite having twice as many cities as my opponent. And I really have to wonder how my opponent can be ahead of me in culture when he has far fewer great works.

At some point, all strategy games throw their hands up and just have the AI cheat.

[Maryring]

Yeah I know the AI cheats. I'm just surprised at how much more it cheats on Emperor than it does on King. In Civ V, Emperor did give the computer some advantages, but you could still catch up to them because the computer faffs about so much. But here, the computer seems to get all the benefits of districts without building them. And then gets bonus stuff on top of it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah I know the AI cheats. I'm just surprised at how much more it cheats on Emperor than it does on King. In Civ V, Emperor did give the computer some advantages, but you could still catch up to them because the computer faffs about so much. But here, the computer seems to get all the benefits of districts without building them. And then gets bonus stuff on top of it.

That is almost precisely what happens, actually. At Emperor, and especially Deity, the AI gets bonuses to all resource production including Science, Culture, and actual production. Not just 'oh, yea, and another plus one or so', but a flat percentage stacked on top of everything else it does. And by percentage, we're talking more than doubling.

Add on top of that the AI starts off with a free bonus settler at the beginning of the game, and he not only gets to start ahead, he gets to stay ahead unless you somehow manage to cripple him early game.

[Vitruviansquid]

It's the free settler that gets me.

It is essentially taking every bonus the difficulty already gets, and then doubling *everything* again. And it so dramatically changes how you have to play against these AIs, your starting game might as well be totally different. If they wanted the AI to become exponentially stronger on higher difficulties, they should've just increased the scaling percentage bonuses at a higher rate. If their goal was to shut down rush strategies, that's what balance patching is for. You shouldn't use a higher difficulty to get rid of rushing strategies, because such strategies should be prevented against humans in multiplayer as well.

Lookin' at you, War Carts.

[Maryring]

Yeah. IIRC, Civ V kept the extra settler for Deity only. Which is kind of fair. Deity is supposed to be the hardest of the hardest. Practically impossible. The difficulty you pick to try and optimize a specific strategy and see if it works.

It should not be on Emperor though. Emperor and Immortal should still leave some room for experimentation and alternative pathways to victory. But if you're forced to just go straight for early war to empty enemy coffers and leave them with one measly tundra town just to compete... yeah.

And the AI is still stupid. Debating Apostle on holy ground means an endless wave of enemy apostles suiciding into yours. Even more fun. Scythia's bloodthirst ability works for religious combat too, which means their apostles can heal in enemy land.

[Murmaider]

It should not be on Emperor though. Emperor and Immortal should still leave some room for experimentation and alternative pathways to victory. But if you're forced to just go straight for early war to empty enemy coffers and leave them with one measly tundra town just to compete... yeah.

Just build enough troops to defend your cities in the early game. If you survive the first 50 turns, you've basically won already. The AI is so bad, it can't keep up with the players production, no matter how many bonuses it gets.

No need for a single war.

[Maryring]

In Civ V, sure. In Civ VI? Not so much. There, on Emperor, the AI manages to out-tech, out-faith and out-culture my fourteen cities with his own three. And judging from how quickly he managed to get up space ports without any industrial areas to speak of, it also looks like he is out-producing me.

[Murmaider]

In Civ V, sure. In Civ VI? Not so much. There, on Emperor, the AI manages to out-tech, out-faith and out-culture my fourteen cities with his own three. And judging from how quickly he managed to get up space ports without any industrial areas to speak of, it also looks like he is out-producing me.

How? The AI only gets +16% on all of those, except production.

[Vitruviansquid]

I can outbuild Emperor mode if I can survive early game, but the 16% bonuses imply far more than the AI having 16% more stuff than you, given how each resource in Civ games tend to boost the value of each other resource, and everything you get earlier is more valuable than they are later.

[caden_varn]

Found an annoying bug in my latest game. I am not a particularly skilled player (meaning pretty short-term, what looks shiny decision-making), so in the early game, I decided to build stonehenge. Had the stone, and a blank spot, so why not? Had not built any religious districts, so stonehenge came on line and gave me some faith points. Eventually get enough to found a pantheon, then a great prophet, and use it with Stonehenge to found a religion. Great! Except the religion does not spread to the connected city. And 50 turns later, still hasn't. And now another religion has converted me. So what is the point of stonehenge? If you still need a religious district, DON'T LET ME FOUND A RELIGION AT STONEHENGE , at least not without me having some way to get the religion into a city.
Not feeling a lot of love for the game right now.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Found an annoying bug in my latest game. I am not a particularly skilled player (meaning pretty short-term, what looks shiny decision-making), so in the early game, I decided to build stonehenge. Had the stone, and a blank spot, so why not? Had not built any religious districts, so stonehenge came on line and gave me some faith points. Eventually get enough to found a pantheon, then a great prophet, and use it with Stonehenge to found a religion. Great! Except the religion does not spread to the connected city. And 50 turns later, still hasn't. And now another religion has converted me. So what is the point of stonehenge? If you still need a religious district, DON'T LET ME FOUND A RELIGION AT STONEHENGE , at least not without me having some way to get the religion into a city.
Not feeling a lot of love for the game right now.

Could you faith-buy a missionary in the city with Stonehenge?

[factotum]

Could you faith-buy a missionary in the city with Stonehenge?

Pretty sure you can't do that--you have to have a Holy Site in order to buy missionaries and similar units.

[Maryring]

Yeah. Stonehenge is all about getting first pick on religion, but you still need to build holy site districts because passive religious spread is really weak. As is, I consider Stonehenge to be a weak wonder that only exists so that the computer will have something to waste production on.

That would be an interesting buff to stonehenge though. Making it work like a Holy Site district so you can build temples and such inside it.

[Vitruviansquid]

Stonehenge isn't about getting the first pick of religions. That would be weird and perverse, because it's wonder-building leaders (Qin Shi Huang or Cleopatra) who would be getting their hands on Stonehenge, not actual religion-getting leaders. Hojo Tokimune would've just built his cheap holy site rather than do a convoluted, risky Stonehenge. Consequently, the point of Stonehenge is allowing a wonder-building leader access to the religion race.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want a good religion, Stonehenge helps make sure you win the race to the first pick of religious options. If your particular location makes one or two particular items very useful, make sure you lock them in. This assumes you've already GOT a holy site somewhere in your country, of course, because you're already aiming at having a religion.

Also, something most people tend to ignore... first few Apostles you can use to improve your religion still more, up to I think four different choices. This can give you a plethora of options for using faith. Use it to buy modern units, use it to buy science, use it for Wats for additional science... there's a lot of things Religion can do for you. If you want to go that route, Stonehenge helps you get a leg up on the competition and ensure you lock in what you want out of religion.

[caden_varn]

Cannot buy missionaries with Stonehenge, no. Even after building a religious district (in another city), I cannot buy missionaries as my city does not have a religion.

I should try building a religious district in the city with Stonehenge (although there isn't really room) as a test, but after I got annoyed at this I stopped playing & started on Empire: Total War, so not sure if I will ever get round to it.

[Vitruviansquid]

Apparently I've been out of the loop or Firaxis keeps a tight lid on things, because I haven't seen anything about Jadwiga until now.

She looks like she's got a big advantage in aggression without actually warring, especially when she can just flip your tiles and forcibly convert you. But once the wars begin, she doesn't have any advantage, except if she decided to go with a warlike religion, like with Crusade as a bonus. Although Crusade is probably going to be hilariously strong with Jadwiga, I'm also not seeing that Jadwiga has any special way to actually race for a religion.

She's definitely going to be an uneasy neighbor to be around, what with her ability to take your tiles without actually fighting you and benefit from trading with you, even one-sidedly. Really, I think you should be plotting to destroy Jadwiga as soon as you see her.

[VoxRationis]

Her abilities should immediately give CBs against her when they're used. Stupid passive-aggressive AI BS will abound in single-player games with her. Auto-converting and stealing land using a civilian unit (that thus cannot be dealt with without declaring war)? Disgusting.

That said, I'm not surprised the new civ is Poland, considering the trailer cinematic heavily featured winged hussars.

[Vitruviansquid]

Gosh, I wonder if you could just build a chain of forts into another civ's territory and take whatever you like.

[VoxRationis]

As far as the Poland trailer showed, I don't see why you couldn't. I wonder if you could take wonders with it.

[factotum]

As far as the Poland trailer showed, I don't see why you couldn't. I wonder if you could take wonders with it.

I seriously doubt it. Everything about wonders in Civ6 requires them to be within 3 tiles of a city centre in order to work--how would that pan out if you somehow took the tile with the wonder on it without also owning the nearby city? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Jadwiga's ability doesn't actually work on any tile that's directly controlled by a city.