Erfworld 67, page 61

[I eat Jawas]

I wonder if Ansom's army can veil themselves, even from the lookamancers? If so, could it be that Ansom has veiled himself to escape (likely Vinny's idea) whilst sending some troops in as a diversion/suicidem mission?

[ChowGuy]

I was careful to look at each individual panel of those instances, and disagree with your assessment. This did not occur in the same panel, but rather over 4-6 of that page.

And in those panels 4-6, the rock moves from a position in both hands and well behind the Bear's head (4), to a position in one hand abreast of his head (5) as stitches are popping, to a position impacting the Spidew (6) while the arm continues to detach. That's not "turns" that's "freeze frame" action. If Jamie were to show a panel with two characters lunging, followed by a panel with two charatcters with each other's swords through their chest, you'd still say "we don't know who hit first."

*ponders* But I think the only thing some people will to accept as definitive proof is if the strip is done in full-motion video, which isn't likely to happen.

[Ubiq]

Ansom's problem isn't so much that he thinks Stanley is stupid; it's that he thinks Stanley is a stupid, deceitful peasant. I think he could come around to the fact that he was tricked if Stanley was just some stupid, rebellious noble (even a blind squirrel can find an acorn sometimes), but the way the Tool rose to power should incline Ansom to think that any odd situation must not be as it appears.

Ansom just doesn't see Stanley as a worthy adversary, so faced with the options that he was either completely outsmarted by such a foe or Stanley was hiding his forces, Ansom went with the choice that made the most sense to him.

As it happens, it's the worst thing he could do. Sure, he can alert his forces to the problem at hand, but the column column is largely useless to him at this point. Most of the forces he can bring in from the main column won't be able to attack the dwagons in this terrain. Those that can will leave the main column even more vulnerable next turn. He'll have to send a message through Charlie to bring in air support, but he might have to do that by having Vinnie send a message to the column to send a message to Charlie to send a message to his Archons. The more steps there are to an action and the more people involved, the bigger the chance that somebody'll boop it up. That and we don't know much longer Ansom can act either.

He can try to bash his way out, but that might take up all of his remaining move and his losses breaking through the hex would leave whatever units that survive vulnerable to the dwagons nearby. Fleeing towards the main column won't do him any good if Stanley's dwagons can catch his units before they get there.

Ansom can always leave everybody else in the lurch and run for it, but we don't know how much move he has left. Besides that, leaving Vinnie behind would be a critical error on his part as he loses what is obviously an irreplacable tactical and strategic asset in the Count and his bats. On top of all that, throwing the Woodsy Elves under the wheel to enable his own escape might well fragment the Jetstone Alliance if the other elves find out what he has done.

Ultimately, the single worst thing Ansom has done is put himself in position to be captured. That not only deprives the Alliance of its leader along a valuable portion of its fighting force (losing that many archers is going to hurt) and one of its best strategists, but it also gives the Tool a valuable bargaining chip. Just how attached is the King to this Prince? Enough to ransom him for one of the Tool's lost eleven cities? Perhaps more than that? Another allied city between Jetstone's capital and Gobwin Knob is a nice buffer zone for any future conflict.

If Jetstone refuses, big deal. Croak Ansom, uncroak him, and you have a new Uncroaked Warlord while King Slately looks bad in the bargain for being unwilling to listen to reason.

[spite48]

I'm thinking that the foolamancer is probably -currently- unable to veil units because of the link set-up, but Ansom doesn't know that, and as far as Ansom knows, Stanley does have a foolamancer with that ability.

Spoiler

Show

I expect that towards the end of the chapter, Parson will want to break the link to use the foolamancer's veil ability, and we'll get to know Misty better. Stanley will be outraged of course, but winning the war is Parson's objective.

[tainsouvra]

And in those panels 4-6, the rock moves from a position in both hands and well behind the Bear's head (4), to a position in one hand abreast of his head (5) as stitches are popping, to a position impacting the Spidew (6) while the arm continues to detach. That's not "turns" that's "freeze frame" action.

Yes, it is not turns, it is breaking down a portion of combat into separate actions taken by each participant.

...

If Jamie were to show a panel with two characters lunging, followed by a panel with two charatcters with each other's swords through their chest, you'd still say "we don't know who hit first."

1) No I wouldn't. You are assuming that I came to my conclusions and am impervious to any evidence, rather than having evidence of my own and finding a flaw in your conclusions, which I do not appreciate. It is rude and unnecessary.

2) You are assuming that can occur and that it would be done within the mechanics instead of purely plot-overcomes-any-rules reasons. I do not agree with your basis for that assumption.

*ponders* But I think the only thing some people will to accept as definitive proof is if the strip is done in full-motion video, which isn't likely to happen.

Is there anything you would accept as definitive proof that combat does occur with a turn-based element, or is that not likely to happen either? At least hold yourself to the same standard as those you argue with, please.

[jindra34]

2) You are assuming that can occur and that it would be done within the mechanics instead of purely plot-overcomes-any-rules reasons. I do not agree with your basis for that assumption.

except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules.

[tainsouvra]

except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules.

However, as we do not have those rules and can only interpret them from the comic, I reiterate...

He is assuming that can occur.

[ChowGuy]

Is there anything you would accept as definitive proof that combat does occur with a turn-based element, or is that not likely to happen either?

Yes. I I see a sequence of frames in which one unit (either side) remainss stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it (1), then strikes (2). Show me such a sequence.


By the way, as something of a side-bar:

If the characters do not know what realtime action is,...

Stanley only asks Parson "And 'realtime' would mean?" That only indicates the word is unfamiliar to him.

As for his finding the notion "Inconceivable" that's with respect to his question "When do you make plans? When do your units heal and disband?" Those are actions that take place in the strategic turns, not in combat, so the idea that combat is simultaneous and continuous is not what he's addressing.

Edit to Add:

No I wouldn't. You are assuming that I came to my conclusions and am impervious to any evidence

Sorry, I meant to edit that say "You could say rather then "you would say, but as you may have noticed, my posts tend to be interrupted abd sporadic. I'm in "Real Time" here and only post when I have a break ;)

[DavidByron]

Do you know where he said that?

except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules.

It seems like that would be pretty hard to do.

[tainsouvra]

Yes. I I see a sequence of frames in which one unit (either side) remainss stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it, then strikes. Show me such a sequence.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html
Elves move then shoot, Dwagons watch the arrows approach from within the trees but do not act.
Dwagons swoop down and attack, Elves take casualties and look concerned but do not act.
Elves prepare to attack again, Dwagons do not act.

One unit remained still while the other moved to it and struck.
After the attackers finished, the defenders counterattacked while the attackers remained still.
After the defenders counterattacked, the attackers prepared to attack again.
This is precisely what you asked me for, and then some.

As a sidebar, I'm not sure why that is what would convince you, as this is not the way that all turn-based combat necessarily occurs. Some of your actions may take place on your opponent's turn, but it's still not your turn. Think D&D (given this site, I'm guessing most readers are at least familiar with it, let me know if you aren't and I'll get a better example). That's a popular turn-based-combat game in which each person's main actions occur on their turn, and some actions occur on your opponents turn, but the way we're intended to visualize it is as a flowing combat scene...yet things are still resolved one dieroll at a time, in a predetermined order.

[Leewei]

It's certainly possible to croak and uncroak a captured warlord. I doubt the siege will be over with Ansom's death/capture, but it could go a long way towards evening the odds if Ansom replaces Manpower as Parson's top uncroaked warlord. Particularly if the Macguffin that turns them to dust (the Arkenpliers) is in Stanley's possession.

I think I should have written something else earlier: I'm attempting to crawl into Parson's head regarding his half-spoken suggestion to Tool Stanley.

Parson is apparently optimizing to win the war with the best outcome for Stanley. Ideally, he wins the fight without further losses. This means accepting a surrender of the enemy warlords, assuming such a thing is possible with the world's mechanics.

Attacking and uncroaking them would be less optimal for a few reasons:

1. Casualties received in battle.
2. Uncroaked warlords eventually just fall apart.
3. Captive warlords can likely order their troops to disperse or return home.
4. Captive warlords are likely worth a fair amount of schmuckers to their faction's leader.

Croaking the warlords might be necessary if they refuse or are incapable of surrender, however it looks like live captives are by far the better option.

[ChowGuy]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html

Good, but not entirely definitive.

Elves move then shoot, Dwagons watch the arrows approach from within the trees but do not act.

Elves rush in. There is some sort of blurred motion effect behind the, perhaps this is the "invisible wall" others postulate, perhaps just artistic licence. Either way I take it as the entry to the hex.

Elves shoot. Arrows miss Dwagons. Well and good, but there's no confirmation that the Dwagons are hanging there motionless rate=her then being inbound, since we do not see where they are just before the shot is taken. Elves would be foolish indeed to not fire as soon as their targets are in range, no matter which one is moving.

Dwagons swoop down and attack, Elves take casualties and look concerned but do not act.

Dwagons attack as many units as they can. Elves having fired, must reload so cannot act again within the same time frame.

The penultimate strip, with the two surviving Elves exchanging glances, then charging, I put dow to dramatic effect. The Elves giving each other a "We are so *booped* look while the (off camera) Dwagons 'Taunt' them to "Come and get it, Suckas." But I'll admit that's subject to interpretation.

I'm not sure why that is what would convince you, as this is not the way that all turn-based combat necessarily occurs.

It does not convince me that it is not turn-based, it only serves to demonstrate the panels in question do not prove that it is.

That's a popular turn-based-combat game in which each person's main actions occur on their turn, and some actions occur on your opponents turn, but the way we're intended to visualize it is as a flowing combat scene...yet things are still resolved one dieroll at a time, in a predetermined order.

And there's the rub. In the popular turn-based game (simulation) you refer to, some entity is moderating those turns. They take place in steps, albeit on a fine time scale, because that's the only way the entity in question can reasonably manage the physics. In Erfworld, who does the management? And why?

In computer based [RTS] combat, actions still take place in discrete steps due to the sequential nature of the moderator (game engine) but the time scale is so discrete that the divisions are impercepitible, certainly much finer then they may be in the overworld, which can be Turn-based within the same game.

Or, even in live/board games, the entire combat may take place "instantaneously" with only the results calculated/looked up and announced/displayed. That's usually refered to as "auto-combat" and may even a good model for leaderless stack action, where Mathamancy/Luckamancy can shift the calculated outcome. But in RP's in particular like D&D, it's considered boring. I suggest it would be equally boring to have the same occur in a comic, so we won't see that. What we can see though may be the "really really small" steps that are functionally indistinguishable from continuous.

The real question of course is are thos steps also simulataneous for multiple units, I think they are. Others disagree.

Unless Pclips decides to post here, or gives us a Klog (which we really need for a lot of things) that situation is unlikely to change.

[TheTurnipKing]

Wanda is completely correct. Ansom can't believe that the Tool is smarter than him, and he doesn't know about Parson. Therefore as far as Ansom is concerned it is impossible that he was outsmarted. It is impossible that this is a trap.

Surely the bat would have found them?

Damn, we need to know how "veiling" works, and soon.

[Scientivore]

Note: Wanda doesn't say that they can cast a veil spell. She says Ansom thinks they can. Why? Because he knows they have a foolamancer. But that's not really true. They don't have a foolamancer any more. They have the eyemancer trio [emphasis added]. In the same way they may not be able to use their thinkamancer to send thinkagrams.

Oh! Trimancer cuts out two syllables and six letters of Triniteyemancer while keeping the meaning of three and remaining a perfect rhyme for Eyemancer. It's too bad that Treyemancer looks like tray-eh-mancer; it would've been nice to keep the eye spelling too.

Yes. Trimancer. Excellent.

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Wecome!

Simpler proof: the bat couldn't have reached the rear hex to scout it without passing adjacent to one of the fortress stacks or the unfound dwagon stack on the lake.

Combat is within the same hex, only. Further, so is spotting.

I think it's likely that zero hex spotting range is a special feature of the "heavy forest" terrain that they're in.

[snip] He was up all night coming up with a plan and, with one sentence about veiling, found out there was probably a far easier way of doing it. It's akin to climbing a rock face only to find there was an escalator on the other side.

Heh. Ever read Fuzzy Knights: LARP?

[Airshark]

I think it's likely that zero hex spotting range is a special feature of the "heavy forest" terrain that they're in.

Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

so beyond going in the middle and somehow getting veiled (highly improbable IMO, that veil thing will probably come up later in the as a surprise factor), Ansom being fooled that there are veiled units in the hex and the possibility that Ansom will charge all his way into the column (or simply choose not to fight the dwagons, getting the least amount of possible hits), has anyone else thought of something?
I have not read the full 7 pages but haven't seen so far anything plausible other than those (i'm with run his way to the column after he is sure the center is empty, through the dwagons and sucking up damage, leaving behind units that haven't got enough move to reach).

[Scientivore]

Regarding the timing of combat: because of the nature of the medium, I don't think that it's possible for us to determine it without simply being told.

A distant picture will tend to show lots of things happening at the same time, whether or not the units' maneuvers and attacks are resolved simultaneously. A close-up will isolate a single action from other things that are happening at the same time. Sequential art must cut time into slices even if it's depicting continuous events.

Finally, since it's a story about a game-like world, the presentation won't just be a literal, lock-step depiction of Erf physics. For example, before we learned through Parson that turns are not simultaneous, we were shown Jillian taking off to scout right after we saw her going to bed. Now we know that it was a time jump in the Alliance narrative to catch up with the GK timeline, presumably because of Wanda's unshown flight to Warchalking. Jillian's arrival at Ansom's tent had apparently taken place before Wanda returned to GK and proposed the Perfect Warlord spell to Stanley; the next day, Jillian probably left to scout around noon. However, we had no way of knowing those things for sure until much later.

On the continuum between real-time, phased initiative and turn-based tactical combat systems, I think that Erfworld uses something like phased initiative. However, that also seems to be the closest to the inherent nature of the medium. So, it could just be a coincidence that I got that impression.

Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

I was thinking that scouting range would be determined by both the hex that you're in and the hex that you're looking into, whichever is less.

[iabervon]

I think it's possible that Ansom has enough move to get back to the column directly, if the dwagons weren't in the way; it's unlikely (from Parson's comments to Stanley) that Ansom has enough move to get to cover the safe way, but he might have enough to go straight. And he might be able to charge into the 6-dwagon hex, take a bunch of damage, and retreat out the other side back to the column (recording a loss, of course). If he survives the flight, he can get to his healers and get healed and have enough cover in the column to fend off a huge stack of dwagons (or make croaking him prohibitively expensive for Stanley). I'm not sure if it matters if he leaves the rest of the strike force in the center; the rest of the force is probably not as high-value a target as the rest of the siege.

Now, I don't think that's what he thought of in the middle of page 61, because he wouldn't be pausing in the center hex if he intended to charge straight through. But he hasn't ended the turn, and he (or Vinny) could still think to try, and it might even work.

[Zeku]

I'm not really seeing how being aware of veiling would have improved Stanley's battle plan this turn.

Assuming it's a cloak that can be detected through magic, or has sharply limited use, then the dwagon platter would not have been implemented, and Ansom would not currently be trapped.

Spoiler

Show

The most obvious application of veiling will be Parson visiting the enemy camp, where he will meet Vinny (as a level 2 unit.)

[DCR]

Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

Oo! Oo! Everybody else prob'ly thought of this already, that's why I didn't see it posted, but does the fogbank roll back in fresh and new every day? Yes? Thought so! Lookmancer and a Lookmancer backup would be the first and second things on my 'to get' list if I was The Cheese, 'cause trying to rediscover the map everysingleday is cause for ...something. Can't think of anything witty and relevant right now. Lookmancers better be rare like original and well-done h'wood movies, or Ansom (and Jetstone? not sure who, exactly is in charge of this sort of thing) deserves disbanding.

[SirEdward]

Yesterday I decided to call them "the Triniteyemancer". I felt that they needed a more graceful singular name.

Trinity would actually imply the inverse of the eyeamancers. They are three beings forming one person, as opposed to the coining of the word "trinity" being three persons and one being.

I think that the closest name I can think of is a troika-mancer.

troi·ka –noun
1. a Russian carriage, wagon, or sleigh drawn by a team of three horses abreast.
2. a team of three horses driven abreast.
3. any group of three persons, nations, etc., acting equally in unison to exert influence, control, or the like.
[Origin: 1835–45; < Russ tróĭka threesome, troika, deriv. of tróe three (collective), akin to tri three]

It's better than say a triumvirmancer or perhaps more appropriately, a triamuliemancer...

Okay, now I'm really scaring myself.

[Edit for spelling and emphasis]

[Airshark]

I was thinking that scouting range would be determined by both the hex that you're in and the hex that you're looking into, whichever is less.

Unlikely. Reason - that would imply that you knew the terrain type you were looking into. And we have evidence that this isn't the case - chief among which is taht Ansom didn't know that the lake existed.

[innovan]

Veiling is definitely not following Chekhovs' script writing rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

I wonder if Foolamancers also have the ability to create mirages. So, say, a crapgolem might appear to be a big hex of wounded dragons...

[Ubiq]

Seeing as how they have hoods and all, I think I'll call the linked trio The Living Tribunal.

I'm not really seeing how being aware of veiling would have improved Stanley's battle plan this turn.

Assuming it's a cloak that can be detected through magic, or has sharply limited use, then the dwagon platter would not have been implemented, and Ansom would not currently be trapped.

About the only real advantage it would have where this plan is concerned that I can see would be additional protection for the wounded dwagons over the lake hex. That way, a bat might not accidentally find them and leave them vulnerable to an aerial assault.

On the other hand, it's a major strategic advantage that Ansom apparently doesn't have access to so it's something that Parson would want to know for future reference.

[jindra34]

About the only real advantage it would have where this plan is concerned that I can see would be additional protection for the wounded dwagons over the lake hex. That way, a bat might not accidentally find them and leave them vulnerable to an aerial assault.

On the other hand, it's a major strategic advantage that Ansom apparently doesn't have access to so it's something that Parson would want to know for future reference.

The advantage would come into play in putting a mega stack on the 'weak hex' and having it meat grind Ansom right there.

[Scientivore]

Unlikely. Reason - that would imply that you knew the terrain type you were looking into. And we have evidence that this isn't the case - chief among which is taht Ansom didn't know that the lake existed.

1. If it's the lesser of the two and you're on a terrain type with zero spotting range, there's no need to know what terrain any of the neighboring hexes are to know that you can't see into them.

2. On the 1200x834 (873 KB) version of the map, the nearest lake hex was only partially fogged. It looks like they could tell what its terrain was, just not what was in it. That...appears to violate both of our takes on it.

[Ubiq]

The advantage would come into play in putting a mega stack on the 'weak hex' and having it meat grind Ansom right there.

The downside there is that such a tactic might wind up killing Ansom and I don't think Parson really wants to do that just yet. He's far more valuable as a live bargaining chip than he is as an uncroaked warlord.

[SteveMB]

The downside there is that such a tactic might wind up killing Ansom and I don't think Parson really wants to do that just yet. He's far more valuable as a live bargaining chip than he is as an uncroaked warlord.

The obvious interpretation of Parson's interrupted comment was a suggestion that they capture (instead of croaking) Ansom. It should be easy enough to convince the Tool to go along -- gloating and sneering in the face of an uncroaked former enemy isn't nearly as satisfying as doing it to him when he's alive.

[hamstard4ever]

Veiling is definitely not following Chekhovs' script writing rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

Um, I think you've got it backwards. I've always understood the point of Chekhov's gun to be that if an element is introduced, that element must eventually be used. The "gun" (veiling) has just now been hung on the wall. Since Rob & Jamie have shown themselves to generally make good use of Chekhov's gun we can assume that at some point the gun is going to be "fired" (i.e. the idea of veiling will be used again at a more plot-critical point). So far the existence of "veiling" hasn't actually done anything to change the story. Even if Ansom moved into the center hex just because he thought Stanley was veiling units there (the same kind of shrewd-but-stupid logic he expects from Stanley, e.g. leaving a "weak spot" in the fortress that was still within range of Ansom anyhow) it probably hasn't done much to change his actual situation, since 1 hex of movement would not have mattered to any of the dwagons anyhow. I think this entire page is mostly dedicated towards introducing the concept of veiling (by having Ansom perform a silly and useless move to introduce veiling as an example) so that it can be used further along in the story: it is exactly in fitting with Chekhov's gun.

[Aquillion]

...the real question that this page raises is exactly how stunningly, mind-gobberingly, pathetically incompetent Stanley must be. It isn't just Ansom's assumptions about him...

Stanley's advantages throughout this war, that we know of, include 100% perfect military intelligence (against an opponent who has virtually nothing beyond a few scouts), the ability to turn his troops invisible at will, and some of the greatest air units in the game.

How is it possible to lose with those kinds of advantages? How is it possible to even go anywhere near losing with those kind of advantages? Ansom has to protect every single unit he has against air attacks, 100% of the time, no exceptions, or Stanley sees it instantly on the table and swoops in to attack with powerful invisible flying units that he could have hidden anywhere. Stanley wouldn't even need any fancy strategy... he just has to hit wherever Ansom is weakest every turn.

I cannot even begin to wrap my head around what a bad leader Stanley must be to have done as badly as he did with those kinds of advantages. The table alone should have given him an overwhelming advantage, but combined with the dwagons and the ability to turn entire stacks invisible? Ansom's opinion of him is well-grounded, to say the least.