Erfworld 67, page 61

[sihnfahl]

We do not know what "low on move" means. Nor can we predict how much safety the column would give him. There is simply not enough information.

I think the telling point is that, in Ansom's estimation that if he had let the dwagons heal to full, that he'd lose the siege units if he didn't go after the dwagons. And even worse than the initial strike.

He saw his map. He knew he was up against at least 2 dozen dwagons and 3 warlords. He saw what units of his were in range and which ones were capable of defending against the dwagons... and, in his estimation, he'd have lost all his siege. And he took a good number of those units (7 stacks of woodsy elves) that could have defended the siege (archery units) and diverted them. Now, presumably, they can't get back. And wouldn't have been of much help anyway since they've already been in a battle and taken a few hits.

We also do not know how many hits Parson could make next turn. In the previous turn, there was the sense that the dwagons had to move from some distance away to hit the column, and a sense that this time they would be closer which would leave them with move enough to come back to Gobwin Knob. So he could have more hits this turn than last. He could have enough hits for the left behind woodsys and gumps, and the seige, but we all are just speculating.

Not to mention he had to hold a number of dwagons behind so that they were at full health to protect the ones that had gone raiding the siege units. He can use all his remaining dwagons next turn safely.
He'd far prefer the siege units on the first pass back. On mop-up, he'd go after the ones capable of tunnel fighting. First to keep the infantry from going over/through the walls, the second to keep them from going under.

[Jarawara]

Originally Posted by Jarawara
"It is Parson that is booped, not Ansom."

Would you care to back that up with, say, 1000 shmuckers?

Make that 1000 stale, crunchy peeps, and you're on!

[Airshark]

Glad to see at least one person is thinking along the same lines as me. I have been banging on about something similar for a while now. Something is up. I don't think it is going to be a disaster for Parson as they are basically one disaster away from losing, but Ansom is up to something and we probably don't have enough information to work out what yet.

The next strip is going to give us more clues I think. If the next strip is a talk about how veiling works, combined with ansoms stack on the map board not moving again (and parson again saying something about not understanding that, he has one or two move left, why not croak one stack of dwagons? Then end turn and stanley getting excited. Note not showing Ansom AT ALL, or very very briefly.

If it is just something simple then we will see Vinny and Ansom talking about what to do next after their colossal blunder in the next strip. But I really really do not expect that.

I do find it interesting how the preferences of everyone here comes through. Vinny is popular, Ansom is not. Jillian I have not seen much about. Wanda is popular (but pretty evil I think), Parson ok is the hero. Stanley noone really likes, but is happy to have him rule the world if Parson gets to win too.

Not going to speculate any more, we do not have enough information to prove something more complicated is going on, so going to wait for the next strip.

Guys, these "auto-attack" scenarios are just plain wrong. "Auto-attack" means that they fight enemy units in their hex without the selective targeting. It definitely does NOT imply attacking stuff in adjacent hexes. If it did, then (a) Vinny couldn't have gotten that bat to look in the rear hex, and (b) Parson could never have made the dwagon-fort to begin with, and (c) Ansom's forces wouldn't have broken through the three-dwagon stack, because they'd have had to fight eleven, not three dwagons (moving into the three dwagon hex would have triggered "auto attacks" from both adjacent stacks, which combined include eight more dwagons).

[Divine Hammer]

Going by Vinnie's discussion on page 34 and Ansom's speech on page 22, I think he holds Stanley in far more contempt than simply for his perceived stupidity.

As does everyone else in the alliance. Otherwise, they wouldn't be going to kill him. For that matter, people on Stanley's side don't seem to have a much higher opinion of him. I'll concede that Ansom's motives are tainted by Erfworld's version of the Divine Right of Kings. That doesn't mean that Ansom hasn't been assessing Stanley's ability (or lack thereof) in actual warfare.

Now, Vinnie, who doesn't make a big deal about the nobility issue seems to come to grips that they were outsmarted by Stanley while Ansom wholly discards said notion as it having to be a trick to the extent that he waltzes into an even worse situation than they were already in. Vinnie is just as aware of Stanley's strategic deficiencies as Ansom, but doesn't seem to have a mental block to the notion that Stanley might have pulled one over on them. By comparison, Ansom appears to be getting a headache in the first panel even trying to comprehend such a notion.

Except that this is completely backwards. Stanley didn't devise this plan. In fact, he was planning on getting rid of Parson before Wanda took one for the team. When Vinnie comes to grips to being outsmarted by Stanley, he is trying to explain something that didn't happen. It is not flawed logic for Ansom to say that this was beyond Stanley. He acknowledges that Stanley has pulled shrewd trick or two, and he goes on to assess the trap as something beyond Stanley's ability.

You're criticizing Ansom for being right about the situation and about Stanley. Yes, he's failing to account for the possibility that a wargamer from a whole different reality got gated into Erfworld with the last schmuckers from Stanley's treasury. I think he can be forgiven for not assuming that.

Even after the uncharacteristically shrewd move the Tool's force just made when it comes to attacking their siege, Ansom still doesn't get that none of this is what they usually see out of the Tool. That points to a somewhat irrational hatred of Stanley on Ansom's part and that's best chalked up to the reasons gone over on page 34.

But again though, the last turn saw a very out-of-character strategy from his foe followed up by a fairly complex formation designed in such a way that he uses up most of his move to get to a weak point where he can receive little back up from his air forces and little help from his main column. By now, somebody ought to have noticed that something is up.

So, after one attack selectively targeting the siege units, Ansom should suddenly intuit that a warlord has been summoned from a different reality and there's a huge paradigm shift? Especially when Ansom is already aware that Stanley is capable of an occasional shrewd trick? Is that from Clausewitz?

It's pretty easy to know that Ansom's facing something different when you get to read the comic. I've also been telling people in horror movies for years what stairs not to go down or up. I mean, why don't they hear the scary music when they start going into the cellar?

The past turn was nothing like the Stanley of old. If nothing else, that should be a sign that they should be cautious and wait for developments rather than plowing ahead. Ansom hasn't even considered that Stanley might have found somebody capable of leading his armies and that's who they're dealing with now.

So, in the space of one turn, Ansom should be able to assume that someone else is leading the show? If the last comic is any indication, he's much closer to that conclusion than anyone else. Vinnie was last seen offering desperation as an explanation for Stanley's sudden genius.

I guess these are my points:

1. Ansom is right about the trap being beyond Stanley. The argument that foaming, irrational hatred of Stanley led Ansom to the correct conclusion is bizarre.

2. Ansom is reaching the right conclusion, and the writing suggests familiarity with Stanley's history as a commander.

3. Berating Ansom for not realizing that something completely unprecedented and wildly improbable (the sound effect was "plot", was it not?) is happening seems to be much rougher on him than he deserves.

[ChowGuy]

Cloaking and invisibility are pretty big news and you'd think even an idiot would be whoring that all over. He may not be worth much tactically, but stanley isn't completely stupid when it comes to using his resources.

You'd be surprised. As others have pointed out invisibility does not generally exist in table-top or board games so experience there can be misleading. However in AoW - a hex based, turn based, title - "concealment" does exist but is it generally considered almost worthless, at least in on-line multiplayer, largely for reasons I cite below. Being terrain based, units that have it and cross unfavorable terrain while in the enemy's field of view reveal themselves, it is expensive yet easily defeated, and it is entirely useless against an all-seeing AI. Similar weaknesses in the Erfworld implementation could render it just minor there. It is however in the seemingly "minor" features that one can find an occasion killer exploit if one does not overuse it.

"Waitwaitwait. Time out. We can *veil* our troops?"

Most everyone here is taking that as indication that Ansom is even more screwed than he was. Most everyone is taking that as a sign that Ansom is assuming that the Dwagons must be there, veiled, and therefore is charging on ahead, further booping himself up by going fully into the trap. There have been a few notable exceptions, but most everyone here is speculating on exactly what magnitude of booposity that Ansom has buried himself into.

The same feeling occured to me, largely because of Parson's body language. The comic format is perhaps not the best for conveying verbal nuances, but visual nuances can easily be brought out, exagerated even, if the artist chooses, and Jamie's work here has shown a lot of that. Parson's stance shows neither the chagrin nor the elation of his "I am and idiot....He can't see us!" In the latter his arms are bent upward, fist slightly clenched in a victory pose.

Nor I think is it one of mere shock or dumbfounding at a new revelation. The pose I'd expect for that would be arms down and spread, finger bent slightly back, jaw slack and brow arched. Here, the angle of the shot makes it difficult to see his face and the hair covers his brow, but the jaw appears more clenched - a sign of consternation. More importantly, the arms are down and spread, but the fingers look curled, almost as much as Anoms's in panel two. Add to this the "sweat" lines around emanating from his head - a staple comic convention for "Oh Noes!" and we get a picture of a deep concern.

Of course I may be reading more into the art then is there, and I have no idea how "veiling" - whatever his understanding of that term might be - can boop his current position, but I can't shake the notion that he smells something coming down the line that we have not as yet. Perhaps something to do with the tunnel attack? If "veiling" is a viable option, it's also a viable threat, and enemies could even now be sneaking through his perimeter.

Hmmm... in most wargames, that concept simply doesn't exist. Most computer games do have it, but they aren't usually hex-based and turn-based, so let's assume Erfworld is a boardgame.

See above, and further speculation below.

--------

A few random thoughts I've been accumulating

On "veiling"

We know very little about how it works, or even if its possible given Stanley's current setup.

The idea that it entails "invisible" troops attacking at will is quite an assumption. It's entirely possible though that "veiling" as opposed to "cloaking" is not an invisibility spell, but a means of camouflage. Perhaps active camouflage, like that used in the "Predator" movies, which works fine as long as the veiled unit is at rest, but less well when on the move. That would be fairly useless for anything except setting up an ambush within the FoW - exactly what Wanda suggests Ansom suspects, but something we assume Stanley does not normally attempt, else Ansom would have expected it.

Alternatively it might only work in terrain - such as heavy forest - where units can "hide" naturally, and rather then concealing the units per se, interferes with some scouting even by units within the same hex. At least by fliers, since if that's Ansom's thinking, he must have anticipated being able to "see" them once he entered the hex at ground.

Which raises the question "what units are/are not" affected? The problem of Lookamancers has already been raised, but in games with either invisible units or "concealment" abilities, there are usually "True Seeing" units as a counter. Usually clerics have it, and it may be inherent in Lofty Elves. They're not among Ansom's troop in the forest, but that would be an effective counter against surprise attacks.

It could also be, probably is, prohibitively expensive to cast and maintain. I could see where it might double the upkeep cost of a unit. For a large force, with a given income it would be a choice between a marginal tatical advantage, and having twice the number of units on hand. Since Stanley is also not keen on spending more Schmuckers then he needs to, that's another drawback.

Apparently its not been mentioned in any of the old combat logs Parson has been reading either, though he does say they're not terribly informative anyway. Altogether though, I don't think its nearly the game winning device that it might sound, and that's probably why neither Wanda nor Sizemore brought it up before.


On the "Trimancers"

We know little more about these. Do they have an auto-refresh, full-time over-view of the entire area of conflict, or can they only see a given section at a time? The display on page 60 suggests the latter. If they're not omniscient that makes tham a bit least useful. Still better at peering into the Fog them Ansom's scouts, but not the show stopper that has been proposed. It would be quite possible for Jillian to have escaped under such a setup, so her repeatedly doing so need not imply the coalition is ignorant of its existence.

What is their effective range from Gobwin Knob? If the previous battles were at a distance, they might not have been as easily able to look into/communicate with it. Thus, while Stanley may have had the setup for some time (we don't know how long though) it may not have been effective enough to say his inability to exploit fully it proves sheer incompetance. The Eyemancers also created the Eyebooks after all. Perhaps, like Ansom's hats, the communications ability they provide was all he had before. Still sufficient to justify the link-up, just again not a game winner per se.


On the Lake

Trivial, but the lake over which the Dwagons are flying does not appear to be the same one we see in Ansom's tactical map Based on the position of the "weak hex" they are just beyond the fort, and almost directly opposite the column's line of march. The single lake hex shown on the tactical map however is almost in line with but much further to the side of the fort, and much closer to the column. Unless there's another "bluish" partial hex I'm missing there?

On Wanda and Jillian
Oh never mind. No point in beating that croaked equine. But Jillian still has a role to play, and may be the key to the final third of this story. And I don't mean as a Dea Ex Machina plucking Ansom from the Donut of Doom either.

[SteveD]

The 'veiling' is an interesting one, as it could mean any number of things.

My guess is that its a defensive move, much like garrisoning units in the Warhammer 40k second edition rules.

From what we've seen so far of elfworld mechanics, attacking units seem to strike first. What if veiling lets defending units strike first? With so many heavies in one hex, it could cost a LOT of dwagons to take Ansom down. It strikes me odd that he doesn't seem particularly concerned about his safety, despite everything Pason has archived. This likely means he's not in such a tight spot after all.

We all knew that somehow this wasn't going to go Parsons way, after all. Too early in the story for a big win.

[tainsouvra]

It is, however, exactly what you asked me for...if you can think of something else that would be more convincing, just let me know where the new goalposts are

No change in goalpost. My criteria included

a unit... remains stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it (1)

Your example was that of units moving and attacking, however you fail to demonstrate (definitively) the the defenders are simply standing/perching there waiting. That was an important part of the the criterion.

That can never be demonstrated, regardless of whether or not it occurs. The argument can always be made that "they were doing something, it just wasn't being shown in that panel"...that makes your entire criterion a moot point, as it can never be met regardless of how much evidence is presented. I would request that you present a clearly provable/disprovable criterion that falls within the turn-based-combat genre so that we can continue (if you wish to continue, that is).

However, if you require further clarification, the intent was ideally to produce a sequence in which the defender appears in a panel as the same panel(s) as an approching attacker, taking no offensive action (figiting is OK) and in (a) subsequent panel(s) in the same relative position/stance while being attacked. I considered requiring the attacker completing his move for damage, but thought that too severe.

Being in the same stance would prove nothing, as turn-based combat games generally show waiting units shifting in place and doing various idle and preparation animations--they simply don't do anything to the opposing side. Turn-based games don't show waiting units as statues, they simply don't show them moving very far or making any attacks that cause damage. Dragons raise their heads and spurt fire into the air or snap their jaws threateningly, archers fiddle with their quivers and shift in place, mages fiddle with scrolls and sometimes seem to be chanting--but they don't leave their assigned space and they don't cause damage to the enemy.

And honestly, even if the genre did what you describe (which it, again, does not) will that really prove anything? The only situation that I can think of in which it would be artistically good to show a unit approaching a defender is one in which it could be argued that the defender who remains completely still was if he were stoically waiting for the attacker's approach--which would be the same in both realtime and turnbased models. Remember, artistic license trumps the details of Erfworld as long as the outcome is not altered.

As much as I'm trying to counter your assertion that combat is realtime, I do not believe the example you request would prove my point, since it would be too easy to counter-argue that either strategy or artistic license demanded the defenders stay still rather than the actual game mechanics forcing it. If that would convince you, then I do hope that it is drawn at some point, but I know that were I in your shoes it would not convince me to change my stance (for the reasons I cited) so I cannot reasonable expect you to be convinced by something that would not convince me.

This corresponds to the opposing criteria "Show me a single frame in which units of both sides are shown taking damage" (or would if I enforced the "does damage"). This I believe I did, particularly in the case of arrows in flight even as a skewering attack takes place. The fact that the arrows cannot be seen hitting/missing their target and thus "doing damage" does not, I think, preclude the interpretation that the action of firing them takes place in the same turn as the action of skewering. It is an attack, one intended to do damage, that should suffice.

A major turn-based combat game, Heroes of Might and Magic, disagrees with you. The graphic for a ranged attack can still be resolving on the screen while you enter the command for your next attack (or units can be taking a defense command, or they could be shifting back to the center of their square/hex, etc). Attacks initiate and have their outcome determined on your turn, but the graphic (or, in a comic, the art) can continue into the following turn if you're entering commands as soon as they're allowed.

In short, no, the arrows in flight but not causing damage prove nothing. The turn-based combat genre already allows that, so a comic based on that genre can do it as well without violating their own rules or even invoking artistic license.

(With regards to being entrenched, I am still willing to be convinced, not adamantly set in my own view. I do not find your evidence convincing, and thus do not agree with you, but had you been saying "it's definitely turn-based" instead of "it's definitely realtime" I probably would be arguing the other side, if less convincingly.)

[mrocktor]

We all knew that somehow this wasn't going to go Parsons way, after all. Too early in the story for a big win.

Are you kidding? His side is all but finished, the story needs him to win!

[ChowGuy]

Being in the same stance would prove nothing, as turn-based combat games generally show waiting units shifting in place and doing various idle and preparation animations

That's called "figiting" and yes, there are often whole libraries of animations for it. There are also animations of units taking defensive poses while attacked. But those differ from the animations used in attacking, or even retaliating within a turn. Hence the clarification "taking no offensive action (figiting is OK).

Its also why I said "pose/position" and not just pose. There are likewise lots of turn based (and a few real time) games that lack animations and merely move sprites about the board/screen. If a unit changes it's x-y position [u]or[/i] it takes offensive action at the same time a unit from the other side is doing so, its not turn based. If not, it could still be not turned based (they just grin ignore you) but I said I would still accept such artwork as proof of turned-ness, so I'm not entrenched either.

Round and round she goes, but where she stops only pclip knows. And he ain't talkin.

ETA:
BTW, I don't know if your comment about "arguing the other side, only less convincingly" was meant as thinking you'd be less convincing on the other side then the one you're on now, or you'd be less convincing then I am. I'd prefer to think the latter, but maybe that's just because my head is as nearly big as Ansom's. Figuratively, not in the "as drawn" sense.

[SteveD]

Your assuming that his side is going to win.

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not inconceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story, assuming his link to Stanley can be broken safely.

But its certainly too early to kill-off Ansom considering all the ground-work already in place around his characterization.

And we don't know enough both tactically and about the mechanics of elfworld to know exactly how far up *bloop*-creek Stanley is, nor how important this engagement is in the strategic sense.

[Aquillion]

There is also a danger Parson could outsmart himself, seeing cloaked units everywhere when there aren't really any to worry about.

[tainsouvra]

That's called "figiting" and yes, there are often whole libraries of animations for it. There are also animations of units taking defensive poses while attacked. But those differ from the animations used in attacking, or even retaliating within a turn. Hence the clarification "taking no offensive action (figiting is OK).

Except, of course, that you only learn the difference between some offensive fidgeting animations and their offensive attack animation counterparts by looking at their outcome while playing the game. For example, chanting with yellow-glowing hands might be a mage's idle animation, but chanting with red-glowing hands might be his attack animation. How, exactly, do we use that distinction meaningfully in a comic, which doesn't run by such libraries?
We really can't...so no conclusion can rely on having a way to make that distinction. If there is no result to an animation, no non-idle event can be demonstrated to have occurred, which means no concurrency in action has been demonstrated.

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not conceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story, assuming his link to Stanley can be broken safely.

Personally, I'm waiting for what I would think is a hilarious Stanley boop-up. He tries to, as he has threatened, disband Parson with a thought...and the next panel shows Parson standing there looking confused, Stanley looking infuriated, and Parson being a free agent from that point onward. You know he'd have to sign up somewhere, if he wants to have his upkeep paid for, so the story wouldn't end.

Story-wise, it might not occur, but the "wait, what?" moments like that amuse me greatly.

[Etheric]

Guys, these "auto-attack" scenarios are just plain wrong. "Auto-attack" means that they fight enemy units in their hex without the selective targeting. It definitely does NOT imply attacking stuff in adjacent hexes. If it did, then (a) Vinny couldn't have gotten that bat to look in the rear hex, and (b) Parson could never have made the dwagon-fort to begin with, and (c) Ansom's forces wouldn't have broken through the three-dwagon stack, because they'd have had to fight eleven, not three dwagons (moving into the three dwagon hex would have triggered "auto attacks" from both adjacent stacks, which combined include eight more dwagons).

You missed the point. There was nothing there about attacking stuff in ajacent hexes.

Basic idea.

Ansom gets some extra (non forest) units and hides them using veiling, in the same hex as he is in.

Dwagons come in to stomp ansom. Leaders get turned to dust so dwagons are now leaderless stack.

Extra non forest units get attacked by dwagons using autoattack and can hit back as you get to hit back against something that attacks you. The dwagons are coming in to stomp Ansom, so will be in the same hex.

To be honest my most likely scenario is Ansom doing the same trick in reverse, but I still say we dont have enough info yet to make a good guess. My feeling is Ansom's turn will end towards the end of the next strip, and there will be some more info in that one, so not going to debate this one too much know, apart from correcting people misunderstanding what we were talking about :D.

Personally I would expect one big stack of A and B dwagons to come in at the same time. There is no point coming in piecemeal as shown in the page 57 and 58.

[ChowGuy]

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not conceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story, assuming his link to Stanley can be broken safely.

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not conceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story

I'm torn between a "What makes you think we're th 'bad guys'" macro, and an "I always did like to play the bad guys" one.

Too bad I don't have either handy (Why is there no ":smallsad:"?)

[Etheric]

I'm torn between a "What makes you think we're th 'bad guys'" macro, and an "I always did like to play the bad guys" one.

Too bad I don't have either handy (Why is there no ":smallsad:"?)

There is a difference between playing the bad guys in a game and seeing the reality of evil, especially as Parson has shown empathy for the people of Erfworld already.

I guess works too :D (frown)

[SteveD]

Aye, don't forget we've had the 'Misty' incident since then.

[ChowGuy]

huh. my post didn't take. 'nemind, not going to redo the whole thing :(

There is a difference between playing the bad guys in a game and seeing the reality of evil

Which would be the point of a really good "I always did like to play the bad guys" macro

[waynemcdougall]

Personally, I'm waiting for what I would think is a hilarious Stanley boop-up. He tries to, as he has threatened, disband Parson with a thought...and the next panel shows Parson standing there looking confused, Stanley looking infuriated, and Parson being a free agent from that point onward. You know he'd have to sign up somewhere, if he wants to have his upkeep paid for, so the story wouldn't end.

Story-wise, it might not occur, but the "wait, what?" moments like that amuse me greatly.

Parson needs all the Arkentools to return to his reality (and to fix his car).

[ChowGuy]

Parson needs all the Arkentools to return to his reality (and to fix his car).

You fix your car with a croquet mallet??

[Gabriel]

Obviously, you have never fixed a car properly.

[ChowGuy]

Obviously, you have never fixed a car properly.

Oh, I have no doubts that a croquet mallet can be used to properly "fix" a car. But much like one would "fix" a cat it might leave it less then fully functional. And since Parson's car is a rolling bomb with a permanent Check Engine light, I think we can safely assume it's already close to that condition.

[Girl Wonder]

Edit: Triple ninja action, dang.

Ansom is really letting feelings of superiority influence his decisions - I love it when arrogance works that way.

I'm not entirely certain feeling superior to Stanley counts as 'arrogant.' If that is the ruler by which we are to measure, then I'm afraid a large percentage of our Erfworld cast would qualify.

[Vreejack]

One thing that would make me smile is if non-combat structures couldn't be attacked...things like wells, or even a toll booth couldn't be captured or destroyed and also could not be bypassed...If that was true, I would laught so damn hard if Parson pulled a Blazing Saddles and stuck a toll booth on the only road into Gobwin knob and charged a few shmuckers for each unit that passed...

"Someone has gotta run back to Spacerock and get a boopload of dimes!"

I first saw this in Bored of the Rings, where the Ring Wraith types were stopped from pursuing the nobbits across the river by a wizened elf in a toll-booth, who charged a ridiculous toll for "black riders."

[Vreejack]

"Waitwaitwait. Time out. We can *veil* our troops?"

Most everyone here is taking that as indication that Ansom is even more screwed than he was. Most everyone is taking that as a sign that Ansom is assuming that the Dwagons must be there, veiled, and therefore is charging on ahead, further booping himself up by going fully into the trap. There have been a few notable exceptions, but most everyone here is speculating on exactly what magnitude of booposity that Ansom has buried himself into.

Not me.

I am a wargamer. And the one thing I dread most in a wargame is that moment when I realize I did not understand the full implications of a rule. Because, if I'm just now learning about it, it's because someone else just handed my head to be by it.

It is Parson that is booped, not Ansom.

So you are assuming that Wanda just handed Parson his head? Your analogy seems highly misplaced, as Parson is discovering an ability he has that he did not know about before. The idea of Parson screaming "OMG we are so screwed because I have this ability I didn't know about before" seems an unlikely one to me. If, otoh, he was discovering the hard way that Ansom had this ability then your analogy would make sense, but as you state it it is absurd. Parson is angry because no one is telling him what his powers are, and he's probably wondering what other pieces of vital information have been withheld from him. It's almost like Erfworlders are born knowing everything and cannot understand someone who does not.

Parson is well and truly booped. We don't yet see why or how, but if I had to guess, I'm thinking it's the autoattack when not stacked with a warlord, and something that was missing off the stupid meals. Parson is truly booped, and this plan is going to go badly for him, real quick.


Let me examine 'veiling' for a moment. Hmmm... in most wargames, that concept simply doesn't exist. Most computer games do have it, but they aren't usually hex-based and turn-based,

But many computer games are hex- or square-based and turn-based, probably more than RTS by my reckoning. A lot of them were awful and fewer are made these days but they still count. Civilization is a member of this genre and it's one of the most popular of any kind in the market.

so let's assume Erfworld is a boardgame. Some board-wargames do have veiling, but of course you can't actually 'hide' a unit entirely, though you can put a 'army marker' down and then hide what's inside that army. In most wargames with veiling, the veiling is done instead of moving.

In a board game you need a neutral intelligence to record the position of the veiled or concealed units. Thus, the marker. In computer moderated board games no marker is required. It is the main reason that early computer board games were popular even without good a.i.: they provided a neutral mediator for concealment issues when two humans were playing against each other. Such rules were impossible for tabletop games but should work just fine in Erfworld, so it would probably be wrong to liken Erfworld more to a tabletop game than a computer-mediated game. In many computer-moderated games you are veiled automatically if certain conditions are met, like natural concealment and ridge lines. The use of a particular spell to conceal your forces may or may not require you to sacrifice movement; I cannot remember ever using such a power, or the names of the dozen sword-and-sorcery hex/turn games which might have had it. I still think Master of Magic was the best of the lot but it did not have such a power. I'm almost tempted to dig out an old CD and reinstall one of them.

However, if that were true here, then Wanda wouldn't have suggested it at all, since Ansom knew the dragons had moved, and therefore could not have been veiled. So in Erfworld, you can move and then veil. Now, assumption time - so can Ansom. We don't know what 'mancers he's got, but with a 25:1 ratio of troops, I bet he's got a few of them at least. One or more foolamancers, and we got ourselves Ansom's army veiled and on the move, attacking the Dwagons. And Parson doesn't see it, as he only sees what is not veiled in the front. Parson doesn't see what kind of battle is upon him after all. So much for his near-perfect military intelligence, he's not got all the facts yet.

Okay, so maybe Ansom has veiling, too. Now Parson knows about it and will be ready if Ansom tries to use it. How is this a bad thing? The veiling power is useless for Ansom because they will always know where he is, anyway. "Oh, look, he disappeared. I wonder where he went. Duh."

Now: Stupidmeals! We know from the stupidmeals that only air units can attack other air units over forest hexes. This of course is wrong, as we then learned that forest units can attack air units as well. Stupid stupidmeals! But we then look at that first criteria... 'Air units can only be attacked by other air units over forest hexes'. That implies that air units can be attacked by ground units normally, yes? From there, it then becomes a simple assumption that ground units cannot *initiate* combat with an air unit, while air units have no such restrictions... but that if combat is initiated, land units may very well be able to defend themselves, just as if they had been in open ground. Those dwagons have to come down below the treeline to attack, don't they?

As such, standard land units *can* attack the dwagons, and *can* kill the dwagons, but only if the dwagons attack first. And as Ansom's army is veiled, those standard land units did accompany him, and are available to fight.

And those warlords? They're off with the wounded dwagons, awaiting next turn, right? Without warlords, stacks of units are forced to auto-attack, are they not? Therefore, Parson's dwagons are going to autoattack standard land units, which can then counterattack, and the dwagons are going to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Yes, they are forced to auto-attack, but only if they are sharing the hex with the enemy. How can a unit be forced to auto-attack an enemy all the way over in an adjacent hex that even a scout cannot see? If they enter an enemy hex with no warlord to command them then they fight to the death, but being in an adjacent hex does not count or else Vinny's bats would have already found the wounded dwagons when they flew by them. The rest of your analysis on this point is moot.

Addendum: I now recall that certain units in Master of Magic were invisible on the strategic map. If they were traveling alone you would not know they were there until you tried to enter their hex or they attacked you. I think they were shadows. They had a special tactical power of poison, as well, though they were not terribly strong.

Does anyone remember this exchange?

"Old man, you seek the Spell of Mastery."

"You have come too late. My work has already met with success."

"Then your work must stop!"

[DCR]

Your assuming that his side is going to win.

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not inconceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story, assuming his link to Stanley can be broken safely.

<hackslashsnip>

Jillian attempts to sneak into Gobwin Knob, is discovered, croaks most of the army using a brand new plastic spork and kidnaps Wanda who insists on taking Parson along because she doesn't want to have him against her and that means Parson has to beat (again!) his own stratagems for Ansom's side. Vinny feels abandoned by Ansom and jealous of Parson so he defects to Stanley's side to discover an abandoned and hurt Bogroll on the next Young Days of Our Restless Dynasty of Five!



I'm soooooo ashamed....

[DavidByron]

In a board game you need a neutral intelligence to record the position of the veiled or concealed units.

SPI's "Lord of the Rings" hex based board game had the die-cuts representing the various members of the fellowship veiled from the Dark Power player merely by turning them upside down so you couldn't tell which was which and having some rules preventing them being directly attacked.

Plenty of 2 player board games have veiled intelligence. Stratego for example is entirely based upon it.

Sure you have the physical card or chit or die-cut counter there but you can get around that with faker units. You can bluff people with weak veiled units (eg Space Hulk strength 1 "blips") or perhaps the game has official "nothing is here" tokens such as the Servants of Sauron in the above mentioned SPI game or the do-nothing "Secret" counters in Avalon Hill's "Freedom in the Galaxy".

[ChowGuy]

Mm'kay, I posted this before

I can't shake the notion that he smells something coming down the line that we have not as yet. Perhaps something to do with the tunnel attack? If "veiling" is a viable option, it's also a viable threat, and enemies could even now be sneaking through his perimeter.

The more I think about it, the more I think that's exactly what is going on. I also "promised" some controversial ideas on "the true nature of the Archons." Ready? Here they come.

Almost everybody here is assuming the Archons are some sort of uber Dwagon-slaughtering combat units, and that's why Ansom held them "in Reserve." But think. He didn't hire them because of some otherwise unwinable impending battle. Not even as support against the Dwagons he feared Jillian might get herself croaked by. Or captured. Again. He sent Webinar and his heavies to do that.

He called Charlie only after he learned she had been captured, and they reported, not to his location, but to Webinar's to escort three commanders and thier entourage."

What else do we know about the ladies. Well we know they can provide "think-o-gram" service. Presumably that's a division of Thinkamancy, which is the specialty of one of the Trimancers. In fact, it's critical, the link itself is "a trick only Thinkamancers can perform" but it's also presumed to be the key to Stanley's being able to communicate with the field from GK. More interestingly, Thinkamancy is a discipline of Eyemancy so if one/all of the Archons are Thinkamancers, then one/all of them would/could be Eyemnacers. And another discipline of Eyemancy is Lookamancy, the lack of which Ansom admits is a problem.

We also know the "Charlie's Archon's" is a send-up of "Charlie's Angels" and the Angels (the original ones from the TV version, the Erf-ified logo of which appears outside Charlie's satellite station) were intelligence operatives, not slug-fest mercenaries.

At first I considered the idea that Ansom hired hired himself a command communications / surveillance network to counter Stanley's, certainly worth at least a few Schmukers. I haven't entirely abandoned that idea, but...

The other thing the Angels were known for is going under cover to get in and out of places. And what is the third Eyemancy discipline? It's Foolamancy!

So, anyone want to give odds that

A) The Archons were hired as a rescue force, which require
B) They can break into Gobwin Knob's Dungeon, and get back out, which would require
C) They can slip past the tunnel guards, since if they fight their way in past all thos Dwagons, Ansom wouldn't have needed an army, which means
D) They can veil themselves and three commanders (originally Ansom, Webinar, and Dora) and an entourage.

But now it's Ansom who finds himself in danger of capture. Was this one of the plans outside the plan that he planned for? And does that mean the "Reserve" was intended not for the Donut of Doom, but to carry out the the original rescue, with him as the rescuee?

Unlike us, Parson can (probably) see the Archons actual classes via the "magic table." If there's a Foolamancer among them, he ought to know it. Now he suddenly finds out what that can mean. And rigth now, his table's focus is on the Donut, not them.

Oh BOOP!

Discuss.

[gatitcz]

There's almost no doubt in my mind that the combat is turn based and not simultaneous. This is not because of the illustrations but because of the difference it makes to the combat results and because of what we are told by the characters in the story.

We are told that "archery gets their hitsies" which implies that the archers are not simultaneous with other combat. There is no chance that an attacker for example can kill an archer before the archer has a chance to shoot.

It appears that beyond archers shooting first, the attacker shoots / hits before the defender. This makes a huge difference to the outcome of combat. For example in the fight against the 3 dwagons the dwagons are clearly capable of doing a lot of damage in one round -- killing about two infantry each. The archers shoot first (both because they are archers and because they are attackers) but because they do no damage the dwagons get to attack at full strength killing six archers.

When Ansom attacks with his full strength the 3 dwagons do no damage at all. Not even one archer is killed. Why? Because they are all dead before their turn to attack. Advocates of simultaneous combat would have to explain why the dwagons suddenly can't kill even one archer.

Some people have asked how it is that there is such a big difference between Ansom attacking the 19 wounded A dragons and 3 warlords first, then being attacked by the B dwagons on the next turn vs being attacked by all dwagons at once. The main difference (equal with the fact that the A dwagons would be wounded if he attacks quickly) is that the attacker gets a huge advantage. With the archers striking first it's possible that all 19 dwagons would be killed before any of them get to attack at all. All dead for no damage to Ansom.

In fact if the A dwagons are NOT so badly wounded that they could be killed by a single volley of archer fire then Parson could have safely used them in another round of attack against siege units.

But if the wounded A dwagons attack simultaneously then it would be a very different story. Even just four dwagons took out Jillian on a gwiffon with a magic sword. She's probably the toughest unit in the game so far.

So if combat is not "attacker shoots then defender shoots" (or to be more precise ("attacker archers shoot, defender archers shoot, attacker non-archers shoot etc") then it is much harder to see how Ansom could have expected to survive an attack by the B dwagons after defeating the A dwagons.

Interesting. However, when the dragons attacked, it was defense attacks, then offense attacks. It seemed the same way when the dragons poppped out of the trees to take the elves. If this is the case, Ansom shouldn't have been able to attack before the dragons attacked him.

[Scientivore]

Trivial, but the lake over which the Dwagons are flying does not appear to be the same one we see in Ansom's tactical map Based on the position of the "weak hex" they are just beyond the fort, and almost directly opposite the column's line of march. The single lake hex shown on the tactical map however is almost in line with but much further to the side of the fort, and much closer to the column. Unless there's another "bluish" partial hex I'm missing there?

Starting from the center of the donut of doom, go into the three dwagon hex and continue forward one more hex in the same direction. Then, the hex just counter-clockwise of the next forward hex is slightly shaded blue as if they know the terrain of that hex but nothing else about it. It's easier to see in the maximum size blowup.

Jillian attempts to sneak into Gobwin Knob, is discovered, croaks most of the army using a brand new plastic spork and kidnaps Wanda who insists on taking Parson along because she doesn't want to have him against her and that means Parson has to beat (again!) his own stratagems for Ansom's side. Vinny feels abandoned by Ansom and jealous of Parson so he defects to Stanley's side to discover an abandoned and hurt Bogroll on the next Young Days of Our Restless Dynasty of Five!



I'm soooooo ashamed....

Could be worse. You could've put "discover" in suggestive quotation marks. And then given instructions not to visualize it. Nooo, don't visualize it!

[DavidByron]

It's hard to read why the veil thing comes up at this point. It's hard to see the grand arc of the story when you analyse it one page at a time like this. But I am surprised how much space has been taken up with this single stratagem by Parson. It started around erf p52 with klog 6 although that was in the limited format without the empty center hex. It's 15 pages later and we still haven't seen how this one stratagem works out yet. If the story arc is 90-odd pages, possibly not including klogs, it's clear this is a big big part of the whole story. The longer it gets the more substantial the pay off must be.

It's been six pages since the Ansom alliance was looking at the big map. So the last five pages have dealt with implementing the attempt to attack the center hex.

Just when it seems we got to the "ok we're screwed" part there's another page of Ansom going "no we're not", "yes we are". It seems too much and that makes the veil thing seem significant. However that might just be because we're over analysing each page. If you were reading through it all at a normal pace I think it might be natural to have to emphasise Ansom's extreme shock with one more page (and besides which as I predicted last time, Ansom wasn't going to attack another group of B dwagons, so I suppose he had to do *something* else with his last remaining move).

So currently I am inclined to say nothing comes of the veil stuff immediately. I'd prefer to see Wanda say they cannot use the veil because the Foolamancer is in the eyemancer trio. Maybe Parson uses it later on in a different sub-story. I doubt Ansom has a Foolamancer but perhaps the idea about the Archons being able to use some disguise is correct.

Parson's expression does look like he thinks he's booped but it can't be. There's just no way that I can see that the existence of a veil spell spoils his current plan. Certainly Ansom has nothing up his sleeve because we just saw exactly what he did and all he did was say "battle formations", not eg. "Get me the Foolamancer on that hat". Ansom's got nothing. I don't see that Parson has anything new either. He's still saying Ansom and the Arken pliers can be captured at this point presumably. Parson should be confident, though he's wrong to be. And Ansom shouldn't be feeling like he's booped because he has the flying reserve, though he's wrong about that.