Playgrounders in D&D

[Strigon]

A few things. First, most NPCs aren't necessarily spellcasters. So let's not automatically "[t]hrow magic into the mix" here. Second, consider the fact that literacy is not automatic. There are certain groups or classes that don't get it. If literacy isn't automatic, then certainly basic mathematics won't be automatic. Nor advanced maths. Having the equivalent of a first-world high school education means at least a passing understanding of math and science. That means you've already got a couple of ranks in Heal, for instance, as well as a smattering of Knowledge skills.

But let's look at some of the things an in-world so-called expert can do. With Knowledge (engineering), you can identify that a column is load-bearing, under strain, or damaged. Or, if you watched enough HGTV, you can probably eyeball that sucker. Knowledge (religion) will tell you that you've entered the temple of an evil god. Or you can just notice that there's a blood-stained altar and all of the walls are engraved with grinning skulls. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can tell you not to eat anything you find in a dungeon, nor touch the walls, nor step on odd-looking tiles. Or you can just use your experience watching Indiana Jones and know the exact same thing. ("Yeah, that looks like a floor tile puzzle. Better stop here, pretty sure it's booby-trapped.")

Point is, a lot of things that should be obvious to us require in-world skills. We would be like prophets to these people, even before you get to the baseline education thing.

My point was that we wouldn't be able to be a court engineer or accountant with a high school education, because - while magic isn't exactly commonplace, and neither is education - a proper court would probably have a decent int Wizard capable of buffing himself daily that could easily show you up.

We'd be well above-average, sure, but so are Wizards. I don't know about you, but I'd choose the proven Wizard over random shmuck any day.

[FocusWolf413]

Knowing me, I'm going to find a Thieves guild with a K local [roll]1d20+6[/roll], I'm going to join [roll]1d20+7[/roll]. Then I'm going to have a blast.

Your build is acceptable, but because Pun Pun knows you only built yourself that way to be a smartass, he teleports you into a gladiator pit in the Abyss. Have fun.

Oh, come now; a 14 in Str will only let you carry 175 pounds.

14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Our soldiers receive pretty thorough training to be able to carry their gear all day. Their loads are significantly lighter, and they get weighed down by them.

Although 175lbs is a heavy load, with a 14, you can go all day with that load and not be exhausted. I would be surprised if more than a couple people here could do that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's also not really rare at all, in that pretty much any town gym (in america anyway) will have people that strong and stronger. My brother for instance, has a strength score of 15. He won state in powerlifting in highschool, and he knows tons of guys stronger than him (some are waaaaaay stronger).

If strength scores like that are as common as they are, I can only assume the other scores are too.

That's not really surprising. Consider that 5% of the US populace is 15 million people and people with similar interests tend to gather. Thats talking about str 17+. 14-15 would, necessarily, be much more common still.

Conversely, your brother was stronger than all those other competitors in your state, does that not say to you that he is, in fact, much stronger than average?

[Strigon]

All right, I fear my points have been misconstrued into something like what I was saying, but with several key differences.

Spoiler: On real-world knowledge

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Here's the original quote:

You're forgetting the obvious answer to this: passing high school mathematics has given you a more comprehensive understanding of the universe than almost anyone in a medieval setting. Show off whatever you remember from physics and algebra and you will be launched to the position of royal accountant or chief siege engineer pretty darn quickly. The reason those things were drilled into most of us is because they do have plenty of universal applications, so a good base in math is a resource that every halfway-intelligent lord will want in their court (for an example of this, look at Archimedes).

Obviously, the bits I highlighted are the important ones.

A few things. First, most NPCs aren't necessarily spellcasters. So let's not automatically "[t]hrow magic into the mix" here. Second, consider the fact that literacy is not automatic. There are certain groups or classes that don't get it. If literacy isn't automatic, then certainly basic mathematics won't be automatic. Nor advanced maths. Having the equivalent of a first-world high school education means at least a passing understanding of math and science. That means you've already got a couple of ranks in Heal, for instance, as well as a smattering of Knowledge skills.

But let's look at some of the things an in-world so-called expert can do. With Knowledge (engineering), you can identify that a column is load-bearing, under strain, or damaged. Or, if you watched enough HGTV, you can probably eyeball that sucker. Knowledge (religion) will tell you that you've entered the temple of an evil god. Or you can just notice that there's a blood-stained altar and all of the walls are engraved with grinning skulls. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can tell you not to eat anything you find in a dungeon, nor touch the walls, nor step on odd-looking tiles. Or you can just use your experience watching Indiana Jones and know the exact same thing. ("Yeah, that looks like a floor tile puzzle. Better stop here, pretty sure it's booby-trapped.")

Point is, a lot of things that should be obvious to us require in-world skills. We would be like prophets to these people, even before you get to the baseline education thing.

See, the entire original post was about mathematics. Something court wizards could outperform even Stephen Hawking at, I daresay, once they've gotten a few levels under their belts.

Now, you're talking about common knowledge, knowledge of tropes, scientific knowledge, and metagame knowledge and lumping them all together with mathematics.
Undoubtedly, those would be helpful, but mathematics alone? The people who need it already have it.

Even high school biology or chemistry would be a massive boon for a standard medieval setting, but in a setting with Clerics it becomes most helpful to the commoners, since royalty could afford the much faster and more effective Heal spells.

Your points are valid, but they aren't what I was disagreeing to.

Spoiler: Ability Scores

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The real life bell curve is waaaay different. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum (except Red Fel) had over a 14 in anything.

It's also not really rare at all, in that pretty much any town gym (in america anyway) will have people that strong and stronger. My brother for instance, has a strength score of 15. He won state in powerlifting in highschool, and he knows tons of guys stronger than him (some are waaaaaay stronger).

If strength scores like that are as common as they are, I can only assume the other scores are too.

See? That's just state powerlifting at the high school level, too. It doesn't take into account the kids who weren't interested, and the ones who are strong in other ways. I don't know much about the sport, but I'm fairly certain it tests almost exclusively one aspect of what "Strength" encompasses. Being the best at that would give you a high score, but not being the best wouldn't necessarily exclude you from having a high score.

I'd argue that the national guard, firefighters, most soldiers, even many police officers have Strength of 14 and up. It's unfortunate that lifting weights is - to my knowledge - the only quantifiable way to measure and ability score both in game and real life. There's a lot it doesn't cover, and it leaves every other score to guesswork.

Spoiler: Tarrasque

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Really? Way I figure, it's like winning a major sporting competition - you do this one big thing, get an award and a parade, and thereafter live the life of Riley. You get invited to all the celebrity parties, endorsement deals for sneakers and soda pop, hang out with world leaders.

You get to be famous for being famous after that.

See, you're making a leap there from knowing how to kill it to actually kill it.
Considering there's only one, you'd have to find it - no easy feat if it's sleeping - and then travel to it and kill it.

Two possibilities exist; either you meant "I know that it takes a Wish to kill it", or "I know ways to kill it easily". There's some inherent ambiguity there, and those two statements are very different.

If you mean you know an exploit that allows you to kill it, you still have to track it down and perform the exploit before it/an orc/whatever other random encounter you meet kills you first.

If you mean you know it takes a Wish to kill it, then you have even more problems - mostly, retrieving the Wish and why would you waste it on killing the Tarrasque that's a terrible idea stop it

I mean, I agree that killing him (her? It? Whatever) would get you set for life, but there's more to killing the Tarrasque than just knowing how to do it.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Your build is acceptable, but because Pun Pun knows you only built yourself that way to be a smartass, he teleports you into a gladiator pit in the Abyss. Have fun.

will I guess pun pun is not as All knowing as he thinks. If i wanted to be a smartass i would have made myself a hafling. I would have been a gestalt Wizard/psion60, Warblade/factotum40, i would have given myself ability scores of 100010/5000.
why am i all of this
Wizard because reasons
Psion because psychic reasons
Warblade because its stabby time
Factotum because Smartass moments

but i didn't because I wasn't trying to be a smartass. i built it exactly like I and my brother see me. Also i'm not in the abyss because i cast a spell on myself called Smartasse's glorious Rule of all that makes anyone that attempts to effects me (besides myself) in any way shape or form to die because I say so.

[FocusWolf413]

Spoiler: Tarrasque

Show

See, you're making a leap there from knowing how to kill it to actually kill it.
Considering there's only one, you'd have to find it - no easy feat if it's sleeping - and then travel to it and kill it.

Two possibilities exist; either you meant "I know that it takes a Wish to kill it", or "I know ways to kill it easily". There's some inherent ambiguity there, and those two statements are very different.

If you mean you know an exploit that allows you to kill it, you still have to track it down and perform the exploit before it/an orc/whatever other random encounter you meet kills you first.

If you mean you know it takes a Wish to kill it, then you have even more problems - mostly, retrieving the Wish and why would you waste it on killing the Tarrasque that's a terrible idea stop it

I mean, I agree that killing him (her? It? Whatever) would get you set for life, but there's more to killing the Tarrasque than just knowing how to do it.

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.

[Strigon]

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.

He might be able to, but his claim was that anyone with that knowledge could live a life of luxury. I simply think that you need more.
Not that that in any way invalidates his core argument.

[Red Fel]

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.

He might be able to, but his claim was that anyone with that knowledge could live a life of luxury. I simply think that you need more.
Not that that in any way invalidates his core argument.

Well, since we're dwelling on the "kill the Tarrasque" idea, I was referring to the more esoteric (read: cheese) methods of killing it. Not straight-up kill + Wish, but stuff like using an Allip or similar. The "How to kill a Tarrasque with a Commoner" type stuff. Most of us have read those threads, and the OP presumes that our hypothetical traveler has sufficiently comprehensive system knowledge to know how to pull it off.

You don't even need to personally do it. You just need to find the ingredients, coordinate the team, and share in the glory.

Now, obviously, killing the Tarrasque only applies if there is a Tarrasque to kill. But the same logic - absurdly cheesy ways to overcome otherwise purportedly-epic challenges - applies to other things. Slaying Dragons. Killing gods. Destroying Evil artifacts. Pretty much anything that can pose a serious threat to a massive chunk of the world, we have discussed and dissected ways to beat it. You don't even need to be the one who personally drops the hammer - you just need to get all the pieces together. Even being one of the "legendary heroes" is enough to set you up for life. We all know how those stories go, after all.

I just have the natural advantage in that area, is all.

[Eladrinblade]

Conversely, your brother was stronger than all those other competitors in your state, does that not say to you that he is, in fact, much stronger than average?

I never said he was average; in fact I implied that he wasn't.

BUT, yes and no. Those competitions are based on your weight; he won in his weight class (and would have beat the next highest one as well, so I heard). Each weight class is pretty small; it's like 10lbs or less, I think, and my brother weighed I think 148lbs at the time, so you can imagine how strong the 200lb+ guys would be.

Of course he's almost guaranteed to be stronger than a random person off the street, but you wouldn't have a hard time finding somebody stronger...which is about what a 15 should imply, I think.

Consider this: he was the strongest competing kid in his weight class in my state for that year, and he has a 15. That's pretty specific. Non-competing, older people of various weights, all around the world, at any given time, can also have high strength scores.

I don't get why people get so hung up on ability scores, anyway. They're only one factor in a much larger whole. There's also class, level, skills/feats, and build optimization to consider. An 18 str 1st level commoner can still go down in a punch or two in a bar fight, and isn't gonna be shaking the world or anything. You have to be the best in every area to really be the person at the edge who makes history.

My point is I don't think high scores are really all that rare; sometimes people are just genetically lucky. Much rarer is the motivation and drive (and luck and circumstances) to be truly good at something, rarer still that and a really high score.

Acting like nobody you know has more than a 14 is pretty silly to me, but every thread anywhere on the net has a few people that have to come in and say so, with 0 evidence backing them.

[Alent]

I don't get why people get so hung up on ability scores, anyway. They're only one factor in a much larger whole. There's also class, level, skills/feats, and build optimization to consider. An 18 str 1st level commoner can still go down in a punch or two in a bar fight, and isn't gonna be shaking the world or anything. You have to be the best in every area to really be the person at the edge who makes history.

My point is I don't think high scores are really all that rare; sometimes people are just genetically lucky. Much rarer is the motivation and drive (and luck and circumstances) to be truly good at something, rarer still that and a really high score.

Acting like nobody you know has more than a 14 is pretty silly to me, but every thread anywhere on the net has a few people that have to come in and say so, with 0 evidence backing them.

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

[WhatThePhysics]

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

You'll need Intelligence 16 to cast Planar Binding, or Wisdom 16 to cast Planar Ally. Excluding items, deities, diplomacy, or Pazuzu, I don't see how you'll convince an astute, warded being to let you start your own loop.

[Strigon]

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

Well, for one reason or another, not everyone is talking about blatant munchkinery of that level.
I'm pretty sure, for example, the original question was more interested in hearing how everyone would behave in a "conventional" way, rather than just hearing several variations of wish looping or Pun-Pun.

For the people who are discussing survival in the D&D world, without those... exploits, shall we say, stats are probably the first determining factor for which route you take. And, in the case of Con, may directly influence how long you survive.

[Zanos]

14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.

So pretty much everyone in any modern countries armed forces? It's not uncommon for soldiers these days to carry over 100 pounds of gear. "Comfortably" isn't exactly accurate, as 175 is a heavy load for 14 str.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So pretty much everyone in any modern countries armed forces? It's not uncommon for soldiers these days to carry over 100 pounds of gear. "Comfortably" isn't exactly accurate, as 175 is a heavy load for 14 str.

Comfortably, not easily. Also, 175 is closer to 200 than 100. That's a bit much for anything but a machine gun crew. Do they even do those anymore? Besides, soldiers use framed packs and other gear to reduce the effective weight or increase their effective strength these days.

[Mordaedil]

Well, since we're dwelling on the "kill the Tarrasque" idea, I was referring to the more esoteric (read: cheese) methods of killing it. Not straight-up kill + Wish, but stuff like using an Allip or similar. The "How to kill a Tarrasque with a Commoner" type stuff. Most of us have read those threads, and the OP presumes that our hypothetical traveler has sufficiently comprehensive system knowledge to know how to pull it off.

You don't even need to personally do it. You just need to find the ingredients, coordinate the team, and share in the glory.

Now, obviously, killing the Tarrasque only applies if there is a Tarrasque to kill. But the same logic - absurdly cheesy ways to overcome otherwise purportedly-epic challenges - applies to other things. Slaying Dragons. Killing gods. Destroying Evil artifacts. Pretty much anything that can pose a serious threat to a massive chunk of the world, we have discussed and dissected ways to beat it. You don't even need to be the one who personally drops the hammer - you just need to get all the pieces together. Even being one of the "legendary heroes" is enough to set you up for life. We all know how those stories go, after all.

I just have the natural advantage in that area, is all.

What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

[Eldest]

I believe it is a well trained mount, and archery.

[Strigon]

Comfortably, not easily. Also, 175 is closer to 200 than 100. That's a bit much for anything but a machine gun crew. Do they even do those anymore? Besides, soldiers use framed packs and other gear to reduce the effective weight or increase their effective strength these days.

Actually, not comfortably or easily. It's like the average person carrying 100 pounds (that's the max heavy load for Str 10, just for the record). Sure, it can be done, but let's not claim it's comfortable or easy.

Besides, modern combat relies almost entirely on mobility; positioning is everything. You could weigh them down more, and they could still do their jobs, but they'd be slower - and as such, more likely to get shot.

Keep in mind, in the military, they give you what they expect you'll need to survive, with very little surplus. Just because soldiers don't carry more doesn't mean they can't. In fact, I'd argue that most - if not all - of them are capable of carrying significantly more, if only because I doubt all of them are constantly at the breaking point.

[Red Fel]

What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

1. The OP assumes "you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written." With perfect system mastery comes perfect system exploitation. It can therefore be assumed that you know every "Commoner Kills the Tarrasque" trick.

2. Not applicable. The OP assumes "you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written." Saying, "But there are rules to which we are not privy" ignores the word complete in the prompt.

3. You literally have all of the backup plans. You know all of the plans.

4. This is the most relevant question. And the answer, frankly, is be me. Of course, that creates a bit of a paradox - if you aren't me, people might not trust or listen to you; if you are me, they will, and thus you don't need to resolve the "what if they don't?" question.

To put it differently:

[Masema]

Well, there is something else about the ability scores that many people are either deliberately ignoring, or haven't thought of yet.

A natural 18 in any ability score is only a +4 to any given skill. So let's take wisdom as an example. A natural 18 to wisdom would result in a natural +4 to spot. So the question is, can you constantly spot something 40 feet away, when there is nothing between you and it and it's not hiding? Not just reliably, but constantly? That's 18 Wisdom.

Can you constantly jump 4 feet? That's 18 strength. What about Reliably (3/4 tries) tying a firm knot without taking special courses in knot tying? 18 Dex. Do you remember random obscure trivia in areas that you haven't studied? 18 INT. Do strange (domestic) animals obey you when you tell them to sit(the easiest method of using handle animal)? 18CHA.


So, by this test, I would have somewhere in the +1/+2 range for all of my skills, except for INT and CHA, which would be the +3/+4 area.

I can regularly talk people down from an angry position, I can handle animals easily, I can constantly jump 3 feet, Knots take about 4-5 tries before they take, I have been voted Best Actor in my drama troupe for multiple productions(perform). My spot checks are not so great, I often miss small things that are barely hid, so low wisdom there.

[digiman619]

The problem with me getting sucked into a Patfinder/D&D realm is that Constitution is clearly my highest score (I rarely get sick; I enjoy hiking, etc.), and constitution is the "also-ran" of the stats. I mean, all the mental stats are important for the various kind of casters (Int for prepared arcane, Cha for spontaneous arcane, and Wis for divine), and anytime I see a handbook for martial class, I see a discussion on the benefits of being Str based vs Dex based, but I can't recall a single build where a Con higher than 13 or so was an important factor.

[Vizzerdrix]

One of the dragony classes has con based saves. You could grab entangling breath from level 1 and be our battlefield controler.

[Virdish]

The problem with me getting sucked into a Patfinder/D&D realm is that Constitution is clearly my highest score (I rarely get sick; I enjoy hiking, etc.), and constitution is the "also-ran" of the stats. I mean, all the mental stats are important for the various kind of casters (Int for prepared arcane, Cha for spontaneous arcane, and Wis for divine), and anytime I see a handbook for martial class, I see a discussion on the benefits of being Str based vs Dex based, but I can't recall a single build where a Con higher than 13 or so was an important factor.

Incarnum is your friend as is Dragonfire Adept.

[Alent]

You'll need Intelligence 16 to cast Planar Binding, or Wisdom 16 to cast Planar Ally. Excluding items, deities, diplomacy, or Pazuzu, I don't see how you'll convince an astute, warded being to let you start your own loop.

Ahah, right, brain was stuck in pathfinder mode for spellcasting slots where you don't need 10+level stat to cast. (I have long suspected that Wis is one of my IRL dump stats.) Regardless, purchasing a casting of Planar Ally from an is what, 1910 gold, before the diplomacy phase of things? That's well below the "becomes unobtainable mark" of spellcasting services costing 3k gold.

If the experience is pure 3.5, low Int could also torpedo item crafting feat acquisition, but wouldn't do much else to deter crafting your way to profit and glory with aid another. Therefore, I don't think items and diplomacy should be excluded. Especially depending on what rule systems and classes are available to us. In a 3.P scenario, the aid another trick mentioned earlier in the thread would both let you rapidly amass the required wealth to craft magic items, and use Pathfinder's "Eh, not having the spellcasting requirement just adds to the DC" rule to craft a magic item to place candle based wish loops within reach.

I know I'd be aiming for Craft(Trapmaking) right off the bat just to start making money. Fair odds that my IRL experience would actually start me out with decent ranks of it, even. (I am an obsessive DIYer and while my IRL skill is mostly laughable, I'm pretty sure I'd start with at least 1 rank in most craft skills.) The mundane trapmaking rules seems like the foundation for a number of beneficial inventions from our world from airplanes to mechanical calculators like the difference engine.

Lots of really cool options come online when Craft Wondrous Item is obtained, especially if Pathfinder crafting is an option. I'm thinking 0th level spell perpetual motion machines, a water towers filled by a self resetting trap of create water, or prestidigitation sanitation devices. Things that could sell in sufficient volumes to both fund the purchase of Jumpstart-wishes, and also establish the connections required to gain the opportunity to purchase them.

And should I fail at achieving that, I figure I have equal odds of eternity in Arborea or Mechanus. I'm sure both are lovely this time of forever.

Well, for one reason or another, not everyone is talking about blatant munchkinery of that level.
I'm pretty sure, for example, the original question was more interested in hearing how everyone would behave in a "conventional" way, rather than just hearing several variations of wish looping or Pun-Pun.

For the people who are discussing survival in the D&D world, without those... exploits, shall we say, stats are probably the first determining factor for which route you take. And, in the case of Con, may directly influence how long you survive.

I guess what throws me is, given the task of personal survival in an extremely unforgiving set of circumstances, I don't see the sense in avoiding exploits, and I've often seen it said that past a certain level of optimization stats cease to matter. The scenario seems to imply that there is no gentleman's agreement about acceptable munchkinry or table rules and the OP has stated that such exploits are expected and readily available. Given that the "proper" way of going about things entails a five man band and in all likelihood is inaccessible to us given our stats (I, for one, am str 6, and have no more than 12 dex.) it seems only reasonable to cheese our way to safety.

In fact, I don't think it's just "reasonable", I think it's a forced outcome. My understanding of Game Theory is pretty weak, but doesn't the circumstance dictate that since everyone involved would be chucked into random corners of the world, and someone would establish a stable wish loop eventually, we'd all be forced out of self-survival to establish a stable wish loop at the earliest opportunity as to help each other survive and/or resurrect the fallen lest we find ourselves in a wish war, unarmed? (I don't think I've ever argued both definitions of MAD at the same time as a reason to use TO before, but I guess there's a first time for everything.)

If we're meant to have some sort of grand Isekai adventure, D&D with full system mastery is probably not the world for it, unless we're meant to reenact Overlord.

[Strigon]

I guess what throws me is, given the task of personal survival in an extremely unforgiving set of circumstances, I don't see the sense in avoiding exploits, and I've often seen it said that past a certain level of optimization stats cease to matter. The scenario seems to imply that there is no gentleman's agreement about acceptable munchkinry or table rules and the OP has stated that such exploits are expected and readily available. Given that the "proper" way of going about things entails a five man band and in all likelihood is inaccessible to us given our stats (I, for one, am str 6, and have no more than 12 dex.) it seems only reasonable to cheese our way to safety.

In fact, I don't think it's just "reasonable", I think it's a forced outcome. My understanding of Game Theory is pretty weak, but doesn't the circumstance dictate that since everyone involved would be chucked into random corners of the world, and someone would establish a stable wish loop eventually, we'd all be forced out of self-survival to establish a stable wish loop at the earliest opportunity as to help each other survive and/or resurrect the fallen lest we find ourselves in a wish war, unarmed? (I don't think I've ever argued both definitions of MAD at the same time as a reason to use TO before, but I guess there's a first time for everything.)

If we're meant to have some sort of grand Isekai adventure, D&D with full system mastery is probably not the world for it, unless we're meant to reenact Overlord.

Unless I'm mistaken, it was specified that you're the only one transported, so the game theory argument doesn't apply.

But it's somewhat irrelevant, anyway; my point was that if we abuse the rules like this, it just becomes a discussion of the fastest way to become omnipotent, and we've had more than enough of those. It's far more interesting to answer the question with what we'd do using PO.

[WhatThePhysics]

What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

Drown it, spear it into place, then build a city on top of it. If that doesn't work, repeat castings of Transmute Rock to Mud and Transmute Mud to Rock should bury and suffocate it. If they don't trust or listen to you, make it one of your top priorities to change that. The Tarrasque isn't a big threat to the sufficiently optimized, but civil unrest from viral rumors and fear mongering about it can be.

Ahah, right, brain was stuck in pathfinder mode for spellcasting slots where you don't need 10+level stat to cast. (I have long suspected that Wis is one of my IRL dump stats.) Regardless, purchasing a casting of Planar Ally from an is what, 1910 gold, before the diplomacy phase of things? That's well below the "becomes unobtainable mark" of spellcasting services costing 3k gold.

If the experience is pure 3.5, low Int could also torpedo item crafting feat acquisition, but wouldn't do much else to deter crafting your way to profit and glory with aid another. Therefore, I don't think items and diplomacy should be excluded. Especially depending on what rule systems and classes are available to us. In a 3.P scenario, the aid another trick mentioned earlier in the thread would both let you rapidly amass the required wealth to craft magic items, and use Pathfinder's "Eh, not having the spellcasting requirement just adds to the DC" rule to craft a magic item to place candle based wish loops within reach.

I know I'd be aiming for Craft(Trapmaking) right off the bat just to start making money. Fair odds that my IRL experience would actually start me out with decent ranks of it, even. (I am an obsessive DIYer and while my IRL skill is mostly laughable, I'm pretty sure I'd start with at least 1 rank in most craft skills.) The mundane trapmaking rules seems like the foundation for a number of beneficial inventions from our world from airplanes to mechanical calculators like the difference engine.

Lots of really cool options come online when Craft Wondrous Item is obtained, especially if Pathfinder crafting is an option. I'm thinking 0th level spell perpetual motion machines, a water towers filled by a self resetting trap of create water, or prestidigitation sanitation devices. Things that could sell in sufficient volumes to both fund the purchase of Jumpstart-wishes, and also establish the connections required to gain the opportunity to purchase them.

And should I fail at achieving that, I figure I have equal odds of eternity in Arborea or Mechanus. I'm sure both are lovely this time of forever.

The problem isn't finding an 11th level Cleric or Wizard to cast Planar Ally/Binding, but convincing them to do it so you can start a Wish loop. They're also likely to have ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), which raises the question of why they haven't already ascended by summoning their own Efreeti/Noble Djinn. It's likely all the necessary parties are ignorant/rare enough to delay its occurrence.

As for Craft Wondrous Item, you might find these musings helpful. I've yet to assess the remaining powers and spells in the SRD, but just 0th level effects are capable of providing modern comforts.

[Alent]

Unless I'm mistaken, it was specified that you're the only one transported, so the game theory argument doesn't apply.

While that is the OP's pretense, both solo and group possibilities seem to be in active discussion. I think the group makes more sense, as being the only person transported would make me unbelievably paranoid as to why.

Even if inexplicably, you're a true one of a kind world traveler, there's still a game theory argument argument to be made that putting yourself at risk of being vulnerable to mindrape/vampires/Illithid/etc. could result in the ascension of a multiverse conquering despot, but that is a different argument.

But it's somewhat irrelevant, anyway; my point was that if we abuse the rules like this, it just becomes a discussion of the fastest way to become omnipotent, and we've had more than enough of those. It's far more interesting to answer the question with what we'd do using PO.

*lightbulb goes off* Oh, I see! Now I can put into words that weird vague pseudo-thought that was originally nagging at me- The lack of details kept me from seeing this as an exercise of PO, and so I was trying to follow it as an odd form of Ethics question- and off on an orthogonal tangent I went.

Drown it, spear it into place, then build a city on top of it.

That story is such a classic, and for some reason I just read your sentence in Samwise Gamgee's voice. Accursed tater-rasque.

The problem isn't finding an 11th level Cleric or Wizard to cast Planar Ally/Binding, but convincing them to do it so you can start a Wish loop. They're also likely to have ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), which raises the question of why they haven't already ascended by summoning their own Efreeti/Noble Djinn. It's likely all the necessary parties are ignorant/rare enough to delay its occurrence.

It's actually not hard to imagine reasons why it hasn't happened- my assumption was that Efreeti/Noble Djinn expect commensurate return for granting wishes. It's right there in the spell- they expect payment for services. 3 castings of a level 9 spell that can be used to obtain an absurd amount of wealth or power? I don't expect the negotiation phase to be cheap "here's some gold for your time" like the text reads. You and I can probably think of some fair trades, but we've been exposed to years of fiction, stranger than fiction real life success stories, and lots of both TO and PO discussion, where the average 11th level Cleric or Wizard lacks that huge base of inspiration to pull from- he may have even tried and failed in the past.

As for Craft Wondrous Item, you might find these musings helpful. I've yet to assess the remaining powers and spells in the SRD, but just 0th level effects are capable of providing modern comforts.

I thought I directly referenced those, but I proofread that so many times to make sure my confused tone didn't come across as hostile that I may have snipped it out. Ooops.

I'd actually avoid creating the internet. The internet is a wonderful thing, but doing it right is hard, and it's so abstract and by nature encourages a certain kind of destabilizing globalization that no sane regent would ever permit unless his state was in an ideal place to benefit from it. Instead, I'd start with something easier to sell, like creating airplanes and revolutionizing freight. It'd be much easier to get patrons as you can demonstrate the principle with a model aircraft and a familiar. (I'm sure rigging up some form of rudimentary magic trap based RC control would be possible, but it'd be so much easier to just train an intelligent creature of appropriate size to fly it as to gain sponsorship to shortcut the slow warm up for magic trap costs.) Things like know direction traps would make it even better because it'd shortcut needing GPS spells.

Anyway, once you have the backing of a kingdom or large guild, you start getting the magic 0th level spell traps online and start working your way up the chain, overwhelming your sponsors with awesome conveniences, like Central Air conditioning in the summer and Central heat in the winter. By the time you're ready for your ascension, people should be bending over backwards to help you get what you want. They'd have no clue what it's for, but since you've made all of them so absurdly wealthy that you've moved them to fanatically loyal, they'd assume it had something to do with a new invention that they can't even imagine yet.

But yeah, at the end of establishing a wish-loop, undoing any damage I'd done by establishing it, and enjoying some escapist wish fulfillment like wishing for good health, all those console games I could never afford/find, wishing for more storage space, for Capcom to start making good Megaman X games again, etc. I think I'd wish to know if it was safe to return home and then wish my way home if safe. (For all I know, I could've been transported to the D&D-verse when the entire normal universe was destroyed by colliding with the far realm, and "wishing to return home" could be a one way trip to madness.)

If safe to return home, the last wish would be to make a hallmark TV movie out of it that starts as a bedtime story at the grandparents' place and ends with a "being normal is great, isn't it?" Aesop and a "That was just a story, right?" zinger.

[Strigon]

*lightbulb goes off* Oh, I see! Now I can put into words that weird vague pseudo-thought that was originally nagging at me- The lack of details kept me from seeing this as an exercise of PO, and so I was trying to follow it as an odd form of Ethics question- and off on an orthogonal tangent I went.

Well, that's just how I interpreted the question. I can't say for certain that's what the writer intended, but it seems more likely to me that he just wanted to know what role we'd be able to fill with our stats.

Edit:
Actually, you know, it is quite ambiguous.
For my part, I find the question of what we'd do using PO more interesting, so that's how I chose to answer. But he very well could be asking TO, as well.

[WhatThePhysics]

It's actually not hard to imagine reasons why it hasn't happened- my assumption was that Efreeti/Noble Djinn expect commensurate return for granting wishes. It's right there in the spell- they expect payment for services. 3 castings of a level 9 spell that can be used to obtain an absurd amount of wealth or power? I don't expect the negotiation phase to be cheap "here's some gold for your time" like the text reads. You and I can probably think of some fair trades, but we've been exposed to years of fiction, stranger than fiction real life success stories, and lots of both TO and PO discussion, where the average 11th level Cleric or Wizard lacks that huge base of inspiration to pull from- he may have even tried and failed in the past.

"You let me have one Wish to myself, the second Wish can be something you want, and then I'll Wish that you're transformed into the kind of genie that isn't forced to grant Wishes to whoever captures them."

Then you Wish for a Candle of Invocation, give them their Wish, free them from potentially eternal servitude with Polymorph Any Object, and ascend into infinity.

I'd actually avoid creating the internet. The internet is a wonderful thing, but doing it right is hard, and it's so abstract and by nature encourages a certain kind of destabilizing globalization that no sane regent would ever permit unless his state was in an ideal place to benefit from it. Instead, I'd start with something easier to sell, like creating airplanes and revolutionizing freight. It'd be much easier to get patrons as you can demonstrate the principle with a model aircraft and a familiar. (I'm sure rigging up some form of rudimentary magic trap based RC control would be possible, but it'd be so much easier to just train an intelligent creature of appropriate size to fly it as to gain sponsorship to shortcut the slow warm up for magic trap costs.) Things like know direction traps would make it even better because it'd shortcut needing GPS spells.

If you avoid making computers, you could stall the singularity long enough for you to ascend. To be more precise, you're not so much building the internet as you are building the basis for a signalling network independent of light towers illuminated by fires.

But, let's talk modern transport.

If a 1st level item of Grease creates a millimeter thick layer of olive oil across 100 feet², and the fuel is exploited at 50% efficiency before vanishing in 6 seconds, it can output 17.8 megawatts. The Wright Flyer III was 780 pounds, and it used a 21 horsepower engine. If it had a Grease engine, and we ignored the aerodynamic effects of more mass/volume, it could lift about 890,000 pounds off the ground. You'll need better engineering/materials to make that work, or you could just lower the efficiency. Alternatively, you could make dirigibles.

As for GPS, Know Direction and Location is better, but it's a 1st level psionic power.

Anyway, once you have the backing of a kingdom or large guild, you start getting the magic 0th level spell traps online and start working your way up the chain, overwhelming your sponsors with awesome conveniences, like Central Air conditioning in the summer and Central heat in the winter. By the time you're ready for your ascension, people should be bending over backwards to help you get what you want. They'd have no clue what it's for, but since you've made all of them so absurdly wealthy that you've moved them to fanatically loyal, they'd assume it had something to do with a new invention that they can't even imagine yet.

You'd also become a major target for assassins/kidnappers with patrons that feel threatened by your activities. Given the destabilizing effects of just 0th level spells on a pseudo-feudal society, it's likely this would apply to every power structure that isn't borderline egalitarian. Sure, commoners would probably be fanatical, but what about artisan guilds, landed gentry, egocentric mages, petty dragons, or meddling deities?

[Elkad]

Str:9, Dex:10, Con:11, Int:17, Wis:9, Cha:7 That's including middle-age adjustments. I'm firmly CG.
Flaws: Inattentive. Something that gives me a penalty to diplomacy and sense motive (beyond my Charisma problem. Aspergers wasn't a word when I was a kid, but I surely have it). Penalty to encumbrance for being just shy of obese.
Feats: Able Learner. Quick Draw. Rapid Reload (Firearm). I used to have Endurance & Run, hopefully I can get them back.

I can argue for a level of Ranger or Fighter or Warrior, but it'd be a weird version without D&D martial proficiencies. 4yrs Airborne Infantry gives me a giant pile of modern weapon proficiencies, but for what I can pick up? Quarterstaff (and it's cousin the Short Spear), Sling and Dagger are all I can lay claim to. I guess crossbow translates nicely, especially after I invent a real trigger.

So Warrior 1, Expert 1, Commoner 2 (4th level)?

What comes with me? Naked? Do I get my glasses? Whatever I'd be wearing in a grocery or at work or sitting at my home computer like now? (If so, I'm armed with a pistol (with 58 rounds) and several masterwork blades, and wearing masterwork boots). 30 seconds to grab stuff in my house adds a lot more firepower, lights, some medical, and a water filter. 5 minutes adds a mountain of survival gear and a wheelbarrow to haul it all in, plus 5gp and 500sp. 10 minutes adds a stolen bicycle.

Get to civilization. If I have gear, hide most until I assess possible taxation/confiscation.
Embark on insane fitness program. Gotta get that Con up. It was 14 or so 25 years ago, I want that back.
Start inventing stuff. Huge int bonus and a smattering of skillpoints in EVERYTHING means I should be good at all things crafting.
Spend an equal amount of time figuring out the world. If I have magical or psionic aptitude, that is the obvious goal (and a personal dream).
I'll try to avoid attracting notice by not inventing weapons. Bicycles are a great first goal (along with all the other self-powered applications for the same. Pumps, Bellows, slave-powered ceiling fans, etc). Printing press. Welding. Water mills. Steam engines. Morse Code and heliograph towers. Yes, many will be curiosities in a land of magic. I want the money, not the giant change to the lives of peasants.
Pay for a Cure Disease ASAP. Who knows what is lurking in there. Years of bad/fun living means there is undetected arterial damage, insulin resistance, liver weakening, arthritis, etc.
Hook up with an elf maiden, even if I have to pay for it.

When I discover/suspect the existence of Red Fel, get better at hiding from him. Formulate many plans to either stop him, or leave his universe completely. Probably the second,

[Inevitability]

"You let me have one Wish to myself, the second Wish can be something you want, and then I'll Wish that you're transformed into the kind of genie that isn't forced to grant Wishes to whoever captures them."

Then you Wish for a Candle of Invocation, give them their Wish, free them from potentially eternal servitude with Polymorph Any Object, and ascend into infinity.

Why do we need Candles of Invocation beyond the first one, anyway? Isn't it much easier to just wish for a 'Luck Blade with none of its inherit wishes used'? As a magic item, it's freely wishable, and doesn't risk angering genies.