Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[Leecros]

That's right, he lived to 106. I was genuinely worried that he'd become immortal (can NPCs do that?) until he finally had the decency to catch smallpox.

I hope so...Otherwise the achievement to kill an immortal is basically impossible.

[Corvus]

I've never spotted an NPC picking up the immortal trait.

As I understand it, getting the killing the immortal achievement can be done a number of ways.

In one of the routes to immortality, you get helped by an immortal NPC. They can stick around as your friend afterwards and you can kill them for it. In my current game as an immortal Germanic, I haven't done so as, while they can't be married they can be taken as a concubine. On top of that they have high dip (so make a great chancellor) and have attractive (I think) so they can make good babies for ever.

If you go insane (which seems to happen inevitably to anyone that lives a long time) you can make your horse your chancellor and later on there is an option to make Glitterhoof immortal as well by sharing your blood. So you can have them killed as well. Sadly in my game someone had him assassinated (and I never found out who).

The other option is to start a war with your vassals, surrender to them and when your heir takes over, have your immortal predecessor killed.

[Leecros]

I've never spotted an NPC picking up the immortal trait.

I wouldn't be surprised if the likelihood of an NPC running the event properly was a ridiculously low probability. (If they can get the event at all) It's probably pretty highly weighted to either pass on the event or take decisions that'll lead to your death/mentor leaving.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I would be pretty sure that the events are player-only. I'll double check. Does anyone remember when they added it? Which expansion/patch?

Edit: found it! Yeah, the trigger block prevents AI characters from happening it.

trigger = {
		OR = {
			ai = no
			has_game_rule = {
				name = supernatural_events
				value = unrestricted
			}
		}
		NOR = {
			has_game_rule = {
				name = supernatural_events
				value = off
			}
			has_character_flag = eternal_life_events
		}
		is_inaccessible_trigger = no
		immortal = no
	}

[Rockphed]

I would be pretty sure that the events are player-only. I'll double check. Does anyone remember when they added it? Which expansion/patch?

Edit: found it! Yeah, the trigger block prevents AI characters from happening it.

trigger = {
		OR = {
			ai = no
			has_game_rule = {
				name = supernatural_events
				value = unrestricted
			}
		}
		NOR = {
			has_game_rule = {
				name = supernatural_events
				value = off
			}
			has_character_flag = eternal_life_events
		}
		is_inaccessible_trigger = no
		immortal = no
	}

Looking at that, if you have unrestricted supernatural events then ai could take the events. They just don't take them when you have restricted supernatural events.

[Aotrs Commander]

Fer-racking, copulating excrement-balls.

I just spent about an hour and a freaking half trying to get a holy order vassilised, reloading and faffing about. I did just about every permutation: inviting the hier to court, granting him a county (wasn't given a claim on the order), assassinating the head (went to someone else), assassinating the head after giving them a county (current heir magically and immediate changed culture upon become the new head (what the frack)... In the freaking end, I had to give them a county AND a duchy out of my demesne right next to my fracking capital (so the capital freaking duchy) to FINALLY have the game decide that, yes, as the FREAKING ROMAN EMPEROR, I was their de jure liege (I didn't have that problem with the bloody Orthodox holy order, that was easy) and have to snatch it back off them immediately for the opinion penalty (though I haven't bothered futzing with my vassal lately so the penalty is of no real moment).

But FRAG, half the stuff online did NOT tell you how to do that properly, (else they keep changing it around since the threads I found).

I'd have stopped ages ago, but I wasn't about to let the little [excrement]er win; if it was going to make me reload all those times, it was damn WELL going to do it.

[Corvus]

I've had a number of occurrences throughout my Merchant Republic game where parts of my nation just go independent for no apparent reason. They aren't being inherited by non-vassals or fighting me for independence but it does seem tied into internal squabbles between sub-vassals. For the most they are simply one county which makes it easy to just offer vassalisation again.

However I just had an issue where an entire kingdom went independent. One of my titles is the Wendish Empire, which comprises of Pomerania, Poland and Bohemia. When I initially set it up I assigned all of the kingdoms to one vassal. Problem is you have no influence on succession laws for vassals and 1 kingdom went seniority while the other two went gavalkind which meant all three separated on his death and the descendants have been squabbling over the titles ever since.

Recently the Bohemian and Polish titles were unified, but the Queen suffered a revolt from one of her vassals which usurped the Polish kingdom.

Which promptly went independent. Surely that shouldn't be possible.

It was complicated by further problems. As a King tier ruler he refused vassalisation. I couldn't have him assassinated either as he was external to my nation and all my minions who normally fall over themselves to kill off people couldn't get involved and none of his vassals were interested.

And he was my son-in-law, which meant we have a NAP. Given he and my daughter were both early twenties, it could have been a long time before either died and the NAP was no longer around.

So I had to take the penalty of breaking the NAP and waiting for the truce to expire before taking back what should never have left my realm to start with.

And there was further insult added to the injury.

One of my daughters had reached 37 martial, the best general I've ever had, and was leading one of the armies in the invasion. Despite leading an army 15,000 strong, with huge personal combat bonuses due to things like valhalla bound, brave, berserker etc, and facing an army only 1000 strong, she managed to get killed.

It was extremely annoying to say the least, given she was still only in her 30s and should have been around a good while yet.

[Malimar]

I've had a number of occurrences throughout my Merchant Republic game where parts of my nation just go independent for no apparent reason. They aren't being inherited by non-vassals or fighting me for independence but it does seem tied into internal squabbles between sub-vassals. For the most they are simply one county which makes it easy to just offer vassalisation again.

Seems like an obvious thing that you've probably already considered, but my first thought is: are you above your vassal limit?

(If not, I'd chalk it up to "merchant republics are buggy like a swamp in the summer", which is obviously unhelpful to anyone trying to actually play one.)

[Rockphed]

(If not, I'd chalk it up to "merchant republics are buggy like a swamp in the summer", which is obviously unhelpful to anyone trying to actually play one.)

One time when I was playing a merchant republic I managed to get independence by my liege losing a war of independence against his liege. In fact, every vassal with land was granted independence. So for a while there were a bunch of free cities in Hungary.

[Guancyto]

One of my daughters had reached 37 martial, the best general I've ever had, and was leading one of the armies in the invasion. Despite leading an army 15,000 strong, with huge personal combat bonuses due to things like valhalla bound, brave, berserker etc, and facing an army only 1000 strong, she managed to get killed.

It was extremely annoying to say the least, given she was still only in her 30s and should have been around a good while yet.

Can't help you with your vassal woes, but having poked around a bunch in the files (and also playing Germanic, like, a lot)... Berserker is a great trait for winning battles, but not so much for your long-term health. Berserkers actually get their own special versions of the "wounded in battle" events that are enormously more likely to happen. Brave also makes you more likely to get hurt/killed in battle. IIRC a Brave Berserker is fifteen times more likely to get killed in battle compared to a normal schmoe.

On the other hand, yes, they will tend to sweep enemy armies before them like leaves before a leafblower, so there's that!

[Aotrs Commander]

Cross-posting this to the major PDX threads as a heads' up: if you were affected by the non-US price increase and bought something you might be able to get a free doofer.

After exploring options with our sales partners, we’ve come to the conclusion that partial refunds (as in, refunding the price difference) aren’t practically possible. Instead, we will gift everyone who purchased any Paradox product between May 17 and today (including pre-orders of Steel Division: Normandy 44 made before May 17), in any currency except USD (where prices were not changed), a free copy of a full PC game or two DLC, as a gesture of goodwill.

The games on offer will be:

Stellaris
Hearts of Iron IV
Crusader Kings 2
Europa Universalis IV
Magicka 2
Tyranny


OR, if you prefer, TWO from the list of the following DLC:

HoI IV: Death or Dishonor
EU IV: Third Rome
CK II: Monks and Mystics
Stellaris: Utopia
Tyranny: Tales from the Tiers


Should you happen to already own all of the above then the system will credit you equivalent giftable keys.

Link

[Rockphed]

In my Poland into Byzantium game I just vassalized Hungary. It took 2 wars against my defensive coalition, the first to put an unlanded woman on the throne, the second to put a landed man with a weak claim. The woman might be in the process of taking it back (which I won't mind since she is married to my dynasty whereas he is celibate and childless. I should pay more attention when I invite people to court to land.

On the other hand, Sweden inherited one of my Polish duchies and I cannot find anyone with a claim on it who wants to come to my court. Any suggestions? Sweden might not by in the defensive pact against me, but I don't want to have to fight 4 wars to get the gash out of my territory.

On the other hand, the Exarchate of Jerusalem is expanding its borders slightly.

Speaking of viceroyalties, is there a good way to force all the Greek Orthodoxists to become Polish Catholics? Educating their heirs might work, but it takes a lot of micromanagement. Or should I become a Greek Orthodox to improve unity in the empire?

[Corvus]

Finally got my Immortality Denied achievement in a way I wasn't expecting. I had been prepared to have my immortal concubine killed towards the end of the game but something else cropped up.

You can get an event where an immortal 1300 year old Shieldmaiden seeks you out to challenge you to a duel. Despite having a good chance at winning the duel, it was still a bit of a risk, so I went down the route of debating her on theology. She got really distracted with the arguments so I took the opportunity of smashing her head in with a candlestick when she wasn't looking.

[Guancyto]

That sounds like exactly the sort of thing you should have your biographer immortalize as a grand, hard-fought battle.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So next expansion is CHINA!


Only not a map expansion! Off-map China mechanics that allow you to interact with China as eastern factions, and a "Western Protectorate" title that allows China to project force into the eastern borders of the map. I approve of this method of modelling China in the CK2 framework!

[Leecros]

So next expansion is CHINA!


Only not a map expansion!

I cry...every time...

[Flickerdart]

So next expansion is CHINA!


Only not a map expansion!

Installed a new CPU cooler for nothing...

[Rockphed]

I'm a little sad that they aren't adding more to the map. Of course, if they added China, they should probably also add Korea and Japan. They weren't exactly superpowers, but they had wars with China so leaving them out would be weird.

[russdm]

I'm a little sad that they aren't adding more to the map. Of course, if they added China, they should probably also add Korea and Japan. They weren't exactly superpowers, but they had wars with China so leaving them out would be weird.

I think it would be fun playing in China, Korea, Japan. Considering what playable characters have been given, adding in Asian ones such as those simply makes sense. Plus it wouldn't really stretch the map that much would it? Maybe Paradox could make a mod/DLC where you could play on a map comprising just the main China-Korea-Japan areas and one map being what we have?

If they added in Muslims, Silk Road, Indians, Pagans, Vikings, The Aztec, what reason to not simply include China etc? Because goods from the eastern countries did pass through to Europe, if I recall. and there were the mongols who conquered Russia, Marco polo's trip. So there was definitely existing involvement within the world that could just adding in more.

[Rockphed]

I think it would be fun playing in China, Korea, Japan. Considering what playable characters have been given, adding in Asian ones such as those simply makes sense. Plus it wouldn't really stretch the map that much would it? Maybe Paradox could make a mod/DLC where you could play on a map comprising just the main China-Korea-Japan areas and one map being what we have?

If they added in Muslims, Silk Road, Indians, Pagans, Vikings, The Aztec, what reason to not simply include China etc? Because goods from the eastern countries did pass through to Europe, if I recall. and there were the mongols who conquered Russia, Marco polo's trip. So there was definitely existing involvement within the world that could just adding in more.

I think the only reason not to add full-on China is that it would be an area about as big as the HRE, France, Hispania, and Brittania and would push the required specs far enough to melt people's machines. On the other hand, I would love to see the option to play with either western europe & west africa, or with China.

[Artanis]

If they added in Muslims, Silk Road, Indians, Pagans, Vikings, The Aztec, what reason to not simply include China etc? Because goods from the eastern countries did pass through to Europe, if I recall. and there were the mongols who conquered Russia, Marco polo's trip. So there was definitely existing involvement within the world that could just adding in more.

Performance. The map is already big enough to stretch many players' computers to - and past - their limits. Adding all of China would shut out a huge amount of their playerbase from ever playing the game again.

[Rockphed]

I looked up the Song dynasty on wikipedia. At their peak they covered an area 5 times as large as modern germany. At their lowest they covered twice the area of modern germany. According to estimates, they had about 24 times the population of the HRE in 1200. The Byzantine empire nominally had 12 million in 1025 (which works out to 1 tenth the population of Song China). I'm pretty sure that CKII models for how things work don't do well when we try to apply them to China. Maybe if we could have more total holdings per province or something, but when there are a dozen cities in China that were bigger than Constantinople, things start to get weird.

[Leecros]

Performance. The map is already big enough to stretch many players' computers to - and past - their limits. Adding all of China would shut out a huge amount of their playerbase from ever playing the game again.

...At least until someone creates a mod that disables China within the first week like what happened with India.


I don't know...I don't fully accept the idea that Paradox shouldn't do a particular thing with their game, because some peoples' computer can't handle it.

Back when Rajas of India first came out, my old computer had a hard time running. However, I didn't go "oh Paradox ruined the game for me". No, I recognized that my computer which was 10 years old at that point was super old and needed replaced.

My current computer isn't really that much better and It can run CKII just fine. CKII isn't exactly The Witcher 3 in terms of system requirements, or perhaps I should say that CKII isn't exactly Dwarf Fortress in terms of processing load since that's the big thing with CKII is processing all the NPC's.

Perhaps if they ever actually do add China, they'll add it in such a way that if you don't have the DLC the region will be null and won't have an influence on performance.

I looked up the Song dynasty on wikipedia. At their peak they covered an area 5 times as large as modern germany. At their lowest they covered twice the area of modern germany. According to estimates, they had about 24 times the population of the HRE in 1200. The Byzantine empire nominally had 12 million in 1025 (which works out to 1 tenth the population of Song China). I'm pretty sure that CKII models for how things work don't do well when we try to apply them to China. Maybe if we could have more total holdings per province or something, but when there are a dozen cities in China that were bigger than Constantinople, things start to get weird.

Adding multiple smaller provinces in and around major population hubs would help rectify that particular problem. Although it may not solve it completely.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It'd also be tough to model Imperial China even remotely accurately with the hard-coded game rules CK2 already has. I mean we already have to kind of whistle, look the other way, and pretend every single Muslim Sheikhdom used the Iqta system and Turkish Succession back to 789 because that's the closest to the feudal game rules the game was built on.

And remember too that CK2 models thousands of individual characters. It's not just a matter of adding Song China's territory (and the inevitable clamoring for Korea and Japan as well), it's a matter of at a minimum doubling the number of acting characters in the game. This isn't like EU4 where adding a country to the map is just a matter of editing some provinces and adding some tags and events, it's thousands of individual game entities.

Add to all that that the fact that interactions between China and Europe at the time were largely distant and time-consuming overland trade and I think the Song (and Yuan and Ming) as off-map entities makes the most sense. Frankly, I think India should have been kept the same way, but the die's already cast on that one.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah, trying to force-fit new factions into the CK2 mechanics without doing a full rewrite of the mechanics is the larger issue than performance, really.

[Aotrs Commander]

Got to hand it to Count Erdvlas of Beresty. He's got some stones, declaring war on the ENTIRE Roman Empire.

Completely idiotic of course, I had no less than three strong vassals in the immediate area.

Spoiler

Show

That... was not a long war. He's just lucky this is CK2, not EUIV or it would have been literally suicidal.

[Kamon]

That's exciting news about the China expansion. Too bad it isn't an expansion of the map, though.

[Leecros]

It'd also be tough to model Imperial China even remotely accurately with the hard-coded game rules CK2 already has. I mean we already have to kind of whistle, look the other way, and pretend every single Muslim Sheikhdom used the Iqta system and Turkish Succession back to 789 because that's the closest to the feudal game rules the game was built on.

I've always felt that the mechanics added in The Republic DLC would be a not horrible start to modelling a China DLC. China was at most points that I recall during the dynastic periods was a meritocracy where the various nobles and lords were given titles and lands based on their prestigious services. At least in theory...In practice lands would often go to relatives of The Emperor or in times where The Emperor was weak or basically nonexistent, land would be exchanged in other ways.

Still, a system could be devised where you have a family estate(to prevent any kind of game over) and may be given land to manage based on family prestige. There's already a system for a family estate from The Republic. There's also already a system for titles returning to the Emperor(Viceroys).

This means that other than a map expansion, the major features that would have to be designed would be:

A) some way to put a value on the strength and influence of The Emperor. A Mandate of Heaven mechanic influenced by prosperity, wars, and plague(Things that the game already tracks).
B) A (probably) large amount of events to prove you and your family's worth to the Imperial Court so you can be given lands to manage.
C) A proper Warring States mechanic. Admittedly probably the hardest thing to figure out.

I'm not saying that this sort of thing would be the perfect representation of Imperial China, but it would at least be passable. Possibly even more passable than some of the leaps they took with Muslim or Indian regions.

And remember too that CK2 models thousands of individual characters. It's not just a matter of adding Song China's territory (and the inevitable clamoring for Korea and Japan as well), it's a matter of at a minimum doubling the number of acting characters in the game. This isn't like EU4 where adding a country to the map is just a matter of editing some provinces and adding some tags and events, it's thousands of individual game entities.

Yes, I'm fully aware of how Crusader Kings II works.

I'm also fully aware of the numerous user modifications that have created worlds much larger than the one currently in CKII and mods like Umbra Spherae which I'm not sure is even still being developed, but already experimented with adding in India(when it wasn't in vanilla), China, even Japan. These mods were slower than vanilla, obviously, but hardly the end of the world.

Add to all that that the fact that interactions between China and Europe at the time were largely distant and time-consuming overland trade and I think the Song (and Yuan and Ming) as off-map entities makes the most sense. Frankly, I think India should have been kept the same way, but the die's already cast on that one.

There's already a too far to interact with mechanic. I'm not arguing that someone playing in Portugal should regularly have games where they interact with someone living in Beijing.

While I'm glad that China is being added in some way. I'm also not fully happy with the idea of this omnipresent superpower getting involved without any way to actually take the fight to them. Yes, I'm aware there are things that can happen to them. However, that's not the same as taking the fight to them.

[moossabi]

Hello, I got the game back during the summer sale and had a question about invited characters and inheritance.

So I'm playing an emperor and I've successfully invited Character X to my court, who is the heir to a nearby duchy. If I grant Character X a county, once he inherits the duchy will he remain my vassal and the duchy will come under my control or will he return to the duchy independent and take my county with him?

[Rockphed]

Hello, I got the game back during the summer sale and had a question about invited characters and inheritance.

So I'm playing an emperor and I've successfully invited Character X to my court, who is the heir to a nearby duchy. If I grant Character X a county, once he inherits the duchy will he remain my vassal and the duchy will come under my control or will he return to the duchy independent and take my county with him?

If he is heir to a duchy, the current vassalage of the duchy will dominate over a county or barony, but be overwritten by a duchy or kingdom. If he is heir to a kingdom, a granted duchy, county, or barony will leave with him, but a granted kingdom will keep him in your empire. If he is heir to an empire, there really isn't anything you can do.