Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

[Socksy]

If a Marrash hits you with a taklif arrow, you are infected with faster Filth Fever. If you fail any fortitude save after that, you die instantly. I think it's supposed to be focused on saves vs the disease, but they didn't word it right, and you can't undo it.

Surely that can't be r-

However, a creature that fails any Fortitude saving throw after its initial infection dies instantly, and neither raise dead nor resurrection can restore it to life.

...Huuuuuh. Wow, yeah.

[Sagetim]

But you can't have an AC bonus that is a monk. An AC bonus is not a tangible thing. At best it's an idea. A monk is a tangible thing. So clearly it doesn't mean that your AC bonus gets up and punches things, because that's not possible.
So we have to look for more plausible interpretations of the text. Like, for example, the character gains an AC bonus as a monk.
Clumsy wording, not a dysfunction.

This was too amusing not to comment on with a tangent that has nothing to do with the discussion:

Spoiler: tangental attempt at humor

Show

"You cannot have an AC bonus that is a monk" "Spit in yer eye, I can't! Bevil, doff thine cloak and show him the monk armor!" One dramatic reveal later, "Made with the cutting edge of baby armor technology, the Monk Armor is baby armor on steroids. You see, we take a number of halflings or gnomes and train them as monks, then strap them all to the armor to make it so that they can keep you, Yes, You, the customer, safe from harm. It requires a belt of giant's strength to wear it's so heavy, but that's worth it to be so well protected that your armor is counter punching every attack coming your way and deflecting incoming arrows away, eh?" "....you're fired Norton."

Alternatively, You might not be able to have your armor class manifest as a physical thing, but I see no problem with My armor class manifesting as tiny monks that punch attacks away from me and deflect arrows upon my behalf. For gods sake my mage armor can look like anything anyway...why Not a small army of tiny monks?

Also, what the hell CR is the Marrash, because that sounds like a nasty bit of second edition that snuck it's way into the monster manual 2. Do note that it didn't mention true resurrection, wish, miracle, psychic revivify, reincarnate, greater reincarnate, breath of life, and so on. So it's nasty because it prevents the two most common methods of bringing the dead back to life, as opposed to all routes.

[Venger]

marrash is cr 5. classic mm2 cr jiggery-pokery.

[ShurikVch]

Bloodstained (Template):

Bloodstained is a template that can be added to any corporeal undead or true elemental (i.e., an elemental, not just a creature of type elemental; referred to hereafter as the "base creature") whose component materials were stained with large amounts of blood prior to being animated (if a construct or undead) or summoned (if a true elemental).

So, I don't get it: is Construct type legal for Bloodstained template or not?


This is intentional silliness, but still - Illiterate trait:

You cannot read, but you have devoted yourself to learning other skills.

Benefit
Choose any one skill except Decipher Script or Forgery. You gain a +1 bonus on checks using that skill.

Drawback
You are illiterate.

Special
You can eliminate the negative effect of this trait by spending 2 skill points to become literate. Unlike with the barbarian, you cannot become literate by taking a level in any class other than barbarian.

You can't select this trait if your character is already illiterate because of race, class, or any other reason.

By the very close, very literal reading of underlined part we may conclude it's actually possible to "become literate by taking a level in" Barbarian class - Special part excluding "other than barbarian"

[Venger]

Bloodstained (Template):So, I don't get it: is Construct type legal for Bloodstained template or not?


This is intentional silliness, but still - Illiterate trait:By the very close, very literal reading of underlined part we may conclude it's actually possible to "become literate by taking a level in" Barbarian class - Special part excluding "other than barbarian"

Those are both pretty excellent finds. Not precisely a dysfunction, but amusing nonetheless:
commoners are literate.

[zergling.exe]

Bloodstained (Template):
So, I don't get it: is Construct type legal for Bloodstained template or not?

Not really dysfunctional. The rules still work, just with a stipulation that never takes effect.

[ShurikVch]

Not really dysfunctional. The rules still work, just with a stipulation that never takes effect.

Then how about this part?

Defy Death (Su): Bloodstained creatures (including bloodstained constructs, which are normally destroyed upon reaching 0 hit points) can continue to act normally until they reach -10 hit points, and they are not considered disabled, unconscious, or in need of stabilizing. Upon reaching -10 hit points, a bloodstained creature is well and truly dead.

[Jormengand]

This is intentional silliness, but still - Illiterate trait:By the very close, very literal reading of underlined part we may conclude it's actually possible to "become literate by taking a level in" Barbarian class - Special part excluding "other than barbarian"

No, it specifies that "Taking a level in any class other than barbarian" is not a method by which you can remove the illiteracy, not that taking a barbarian level is. It's like how saying "People who don't respect animals are evil" doesn't imply that there aren't any people who do respect animals but are still evil, only that if you don't, you definitely are evil.

Then how about this part?

That is still just a stipulation about what happens if you get a construct with the template, even though that's normally impossible but might be possible through using the Dustform or a similar template afterwards.

[ShurikVch]

No, it specifies that "Taking a level in any class other than barbarian" is not a method by which you can remove the illiteracy, not that taking a barbarian level is. It's like how saying "People who don't respect animals are evil" doesn't imply that there aren't any people who do respect animals but are still evil, only that if you don't, you definitely are evil

It's extrapolation of general Illiteracy rules: you multiclassed - you got literacy.
Yes, with Barbarian.
So what?
It's not like Barbarian have some RAW which can prevent acquiring literacy from multiclassing...

[Jormengand]

It's extrapolation of general Illiteracy rules: you multiclassed - you got literacy.
Yes, with Barbarian.
So what?
It's not like Barbarian have some RAW which can prevent acquiring literacy from multiclassing...

"Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had."

That's a specific rule about barbarians who take levels in other classes. Not just a rule about multiclassing in general. Normally, a barbarian would be able to take fighter levels (or any other nonbarbarian levels) to gain literacy. However, the illiterate flaw rules out this ability. If there are any "General illiteracy rules" in 3.5 which state that you get literacy when you multiclass, in any way, please cite them.

[ShurikVch]

That's a specific rule about barbarians who take levels in other classes. Not just a rule about multiclassing in general. Normally, a barbarian would be able to take fighter levels (or any other nonbarbarian levels) to gain literacy. However, the illiterate flaw rules out this ability. If there are any "General illiteracy rules" in 3.5 which state that you get literacy when you multiclass, in any way, please cite them.

I'm sorry, but what's you said there is "Rules As Common Sense Dictates"; nothing in your quotes actually disproved my words

Yes, there is, indeed, no "General illiteracy rules", but across the various sources Illiteracy occurring (AFAIK) for five times, and 4 of them in one way or another mentioned Barbarian class - which have the only Core instance of Illiteracy; thus, Barbarian's Illiteracy is as general as we will ever got

Now, let's see the RAW for Illiterate trait.
Note: it doesn't leave unsaid issue with gaining literacy by multiclassing

Unlike with the barbarian, you cannot become literate by taking a level in any class other than barbarian.

See: it doesn't forbid it completely, but just prohibit any class... except Barbarian.
So, clearly, if you multiclass with Barbarian, something should happen.
But what?
Maybe, our character will become literate?
Sound plausible - otherwise, why the "other than barbarian"?

[georgie_leech]

I'm sorry, but what's you said there is "Rules As Common Sense Dictates"; nothing in your quotes actually disproved my words

Yes, there is, indeed, no "General illiteracy rules", but across the various sources Illiteracy occurring (AFAIK) for five times, and 4 of them in one way or another mentioned Barbarian class - which have the only Core instance of Illiteracy; thus, Barbarian's Illiteracy is as general as we will ever got

Now, let's see the RAW for Illiterate trait.
Note: it doesn't leave unsaid issue with gaining literacy by multiclassingSee: it doesn't forbid it completely, but just prohibit any class... except Barbarian.
So, clearly, if you multiclass with Barbarian, something should happen.
But what?
Maybe, our character will become literate?
Sound plausible - otherwise, why the "other than barbarian"?

...because Barbarian levels don't grant literacy?

[ShurikVch]

...because Barbarian levels don't grant literacy?

Where it's said?
Illiteracy says "any other class", not "any other than Barbarian"

[georgie_leech]

Where it's said?
Illiteracy says "any other class", not "any other than Barbarian"

Right, so the rule is applying restrictions to classes other than Barbarian. Thus, Barbarian levels apply as normal. And Barbarian levels don't grant literacy, so they still don't.

And for the record, it's 'any class other than Barbarian' at the end of the section, not either of the two above.

[ShurikVch]

Right, so the rule is applying restrictions to classes other than Barbarian. Thus, Barbarian levels apply as normal. And Barbarian levels don't grant literacy, so they still don't.

Quote, please

P.S. I'm slightly surprised with all that controversy; dysfunctions with Illiteracy of Savage Bard and Totem Rager are well-known; were they somehow debunked while I don't looked, or are you just attempting to say "Illiterate trait is different"?

[Jormengand]

Quote, please

The part of barbarian itself which says it isn't literate and that you can become literate by taking levels in another class other than barbarian, which I already posted?

There is no "General illiteracy rule" which states that multiclassing makes you literate, only the rules in savage bard and barbarian themselves. The barbarian/savage bard dysfuction comes from the fact that barbarian is a class other than savage bard, and savage bard is a class other than barbarian, so the dysfunction is that each cancels out the other's illiteracy. Barbarian doesn't cancel out the illiteracy that illiterate gives you because the illiterate trait doesn't say that you can cancel it out by taking barbarian levels, only that you can't cancel it out by taking levels in anything else the way you could if you were a barbarian.

[Bucky]

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.

Seems straightforward, but it's missing a "that round" or "per round" at the end. So you get one melee attack, ever.

[Troacctid]

Seems straightforward, but it's missing a "that round" or "per round" at the end. So you get one melee attack, ever.

Or you could read the rest of the paragraph and see that the context explains how it works.

[Kurald Galain]

Seems straightforward, but it's missing a "that round" or "per round" at the end. So you get one melee attack, ever.

Clearly the word "feet" doesn't refer to distance, but to the limbs of the mount. So you only get one melee attack, ever, if your mount is a big spider, or possibly an octopus.

[ShurikVch]

The part of barbarian itself which says it isn't literate and that you can become literate by taking levels in another class other than barbarian, which I already posted?

Except you don't - as I already said, nothing in your quotes actually proves your words: RAW on Barbarian's Illiteracy says "any other class", not "any other class except Barbarian"; in case of multiclassing into Barbarian, Barbarian is the "other class", thus grants literacy

[Dagroth]

Except you don't - as I already said, nothing in your quotes actually proves your words: RAW on Barbarian's Illiteracy says "any other class", not "any other class except Barbarian"; in case of multiclassing into Barbarian, Barbarian is the "other class", thus grants literacy

You can't "multiclass" into a class you already have... that's just progressing your existing class.

[Jormengand]

Except you don't - as I already said, nothing in your quotes actually proves your words: RAW on Barbarian's Illiteracy says "any other class", not "any other class except Barbarian"; in case of multiclassing into Barbarian, Barbarian is the "other class", thus grants literacy

Right, except that the illiteracy given by the illiterate trait doesn't have any stipulation that becoming a barbarian makes you literate. The barbarian's illiteracy DOES have a stipulation that becoming anything else makes you literate, though. Because illiteracy follows the rules in the source, rather than rules which are given in some kind of general statement of illiteracy, the illiteracy from illiterate can't be removed by becoming a barbarian, even if barbarian is "Another class".

[bekeleven]

Rule 1: Qumari citizens cannot be dual citizens of Elbownia.

Rule 2: People that have committed felonies and are citizens of countries other than Qumar may become Elbownian citizens after serving time for their crimes.

"Sweet, so all I have to do is steal some cars and I'm a Qumari-Elbownian dual citizen."

[ShurikVch]

Right, except that the illiteracy given by the illiterate trait doesn't have any stipulation that becoming a barbarian makes you literate.

It may be technically true - in a sense of "RAW don't say it directly"; but then why it mentioned specifically "other than barbarian"?

[Jormengand]

It may be technically true - in a sense of "RAW don't say it directly"; but then why it mentioned specifically "other than barbarian"?

Because normally, a barbarian would be able to become literate by taking a class level in a class other than barbarian. If you have the trait, though, you can't become literate by taking a class level in a class other than barbarian. The normal methods of becoming literate are X and Y, where X is spend two skill points and Y is take a class level other than barbarian. The illiterate trait is specifying that you can do X, but cannot do Y. It doesn't need to specify that you can't do Z, where Z is take a level in barbarian, because that was never a way to remove your illiteracy even normally.

[The Viscount]

I think I understand what's going on here. ShurikVch is focused on this sentence.

Unlike with the barbarian, you cannot become literate by taking a level in any class other than barbarian.

The intent of this sentence is pretty clear: Barbarian could cure illiteracy by taking a level in any other class. You cannot use this route, you must buy it with points. We can dig a dysfunction out of this if we want to, though.

Let me try and rephrase it and see if that makes it clear for everyone. If you read the sentence carefully, especially focusing on the main clause, with an imaginary comma, the dysfunction becomes clear.

"You cannot become literate by taking a level in any class, other than barbarian"
This is to say, if you have the illiterate trait, taking a level in any class cannot undo your illiteracy. However, if you take a level in barbarian, this will undo your illiteracy. But we all know that barbarian is illiterate, so it can't give you literacy! Hence the dysfunction.

Is this what you were going for?

[Jormengand]

Either way, it doesn't imply that barbarian can restore literacy, only that everything else can't. Given that only everything else had the ability to in the first instance, there's no issue.

[No brains]

Clearly the word "feet" doesn't refer to distance, but to the limbs of the mount. So you only get one melee attack, ever, if your mount is a big spider, or possibly an octopus.

Gugnir always hit because Odin really, really needed it to.

[The Viscount]

The Sight Eclipsed Mystery has the following text:

You can attempt hide checks even while being observed, just as if you had cover or concealment for the purpose of this determination.

The problem is, of course, that Hide checks don't work that way.

Shadowcaster has one more bizarre problem. Your list of bonus feats includes any metamagic feat. However, mysteries cannot benefit from metamagic feats.

[nailbudday]

Shadowcaster has one more bizarre problem. Your list of bonus feats includes any metamagic feat. However, mysteries cannot benefit from metamagic feats.

I guess it's just an option for that weird alternate multiclass progression they suggest with swapping spellcasting levels (i really want to say sorc levels but i dont think it was that specific) for shadowcaster levels?