Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

[Debatra]

Which the class itself violates anyway, though that detail's already been debated to near-death. I think this is the first time the ability to take a divine casting class after going into Ur-Priest has been mentioned, though.

[georgie_leech]

Which the class itself violates anyway, though that detail's already been debated to near-death. I think this is the first time the ability to take a divine casting class after going into Ur-Priest has been mentioned, though.

Mm this is a case where either reading is dysfunctional. Either the class disqualifies itself, or you can multiclass Cleric or something without losing features.

[PallentisLunam]

The specificity of "divine spells" can cause some ridiculousness too, I guess. For example a variant alignment paladin of 3rd level or lower who has Ur-Priest levels. It certainly violates the spirit of the class.

[EliDupree]

All psionic activity within the area requires 4 more power points to manifest than normal, unless a character makes a Will save each time he attempts to manifest a power.

It's obvious what this is supposed to do – whenever a character attempts to manifest a power, they make a Will save, and if they fail, that particular power costs more than normal. But if you take it literally, the penalty is removed for everybody if just one character "makes a Will save each time he attempts to manifest a power". That's pretty dysfunctional even if you don't get into technicalities like "make versus succeed at" or "do you meet the condition if you never attempt to manifest a power".

EDIT: after noticing this, I decided to click on a random psionic power to see how likely it was for a random power to have a dysfunction. I clicked on Energy Adaptation. It says this:

Your body assimilates some of the effect of an energy attack and converts it to harmless light. You gain resistance 10 against any attack that deals acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.

[...]

This power’s subtype is the same as the type of damage it protects against.

Not even being pedantically literal, my actual good-faith reading of that first line was that a single casting of the spell would protect against all 5 energy types. But the last line clearly implies that it was intended that you have to choose exactly one energy type.

[tyckspoon]

Not even being pedantically literal, my actual good-faith reading of that first line was that a single casting of the spell would protect against all 5 energy types. But the last line clearly implies that it was intended that you have to choose exactly one energy type.

Your first reading is correct - Energy Adaptation gives resistance to all the listed energy types. Compare to the lower level Specified Energy Adaptation, where the only difference is you have to pick one. The ending line just means Energy Adaptation is a [fire, cold, acid, lightning, sonic] power.. which is a good contender for 'ability with the most subtypes', but doesn't make the rules do anything too bizarre.

[EliDupree]

...I see. They must have mistakenly copied the subtype-clarifying text from Specified Energy Adaptation, or something like that.

It's still dysfunctional rather than just a complicated wording, because it says "type", singular, in "type of damage it protects against".

[Jormengand]

Adapt Body allows you to move normally in conditions which would normally prevent you from moving entirely but not which would allow you to move at part speed.

[Debatra]

Continuing to throw darts at the list of psionic powers, Control Sound has an option to release all the energy of the power at once to shatter certain objects in the area. Except this power doesn't have an area, or any other text detailing what that means.

Not a dysfunction, but Evade Burst has the oddly-redundant text: "Manifesting this power is an immediate action. You can even manifest this power when it isn’t your turn."

Share Pain, Forced doesn't work on willing creatures. This also allows creatures who manage to identify its manifestation to declare themselves a willing target in order to avoid its effects. (The only other power on that site with "forced" in its name, Sense Link, Forced, explicitly can be used on willing creatures.)

[Malimar]

Not a dysfunction, but Evade Burst has the oddly-redundant text: "Manifesting this power is an immediate action. You can even manifest this power when it isn’t your turn."

I think this text is on a lot of immediate action things. I think it's meant as a reminder of the regular rule rather than establishment of a special one.

[Jormengand]

A variety of massive, mostly inflexible spells, such as whatevering hand spells, which are usually large, can all pass through the half-inch gaps in a forcecage. However, you cannot shoot someone inside such a cage with a longbow unless the longbow itself can fit through the gaps.

[EliDupree]

Wow, you're right. It's completely unambiguous. Amazing.

[Jormengand]

Wow, you're right. It's completely unambiguous. Amazing.

Of course, I fully expect at least three posters to come barrelling in to argue that there's some ambiguity that doesn't even make sense ("Longbows are addresses! Any spell only means spells in the set of natural numbers!") but c'est la vie.

[georgie_leech]

Of course, I fully expect at least three posters to come barrelling in to argue that there's some ambiguity that doesn't even make sense ("Longbows are addresses! Any spell only means spells in the set of natural numbers!") but c'est la vie.

I mean, there's an argument to be made that it calls out arrows, but strictly speaking that means you can use arrows as an improvised weapon. After all, it's the Longbow that deals 1d8 damage, not the arrow.

[Jormengand]

I mean, there's an argument to be made that it calls out arrows, but strictly speaking that means you can use arrows as an improvised weapon. After all, it's the Longbow that deals 1d8 damage, not the arrow.

That's even worse - an arrow can pass through the gaps but only if it isn't fired from a bow!

[EliDupree]

Hmmm… Thinking about it more, I actually think there is some ambiguity and what it means for a "spell" to pass through the gaps. After all, it's not like a "spell" is an object that moves around. Does it mean spell effects— *quickly casts Protection from Energy (Flamewar)*

If the Whatevering Hand spells count, then Summon Monster would have to as well (both of them are temporary spells with the hand/monster listed in the Effect line). So then, for instance, a Colossal Fiendish Monstrous Spider (which is much bigger than the entire cage!) would fit through the gaps.

[PallentisLunam]

Of course, I fully expect at least three posters to come barrelling in to argue that there's some ambiguity that doesn't even make sense ("Longbows are addresses! Any spell only means spells in the set of natural numbers!") but c'est la vie.

You do realize that if you were right more often people would have to explain why you're wrong less, yeah?

[Jormengand]

You do realize that if you were right more often people would have to explain why you're wrong less, yeah?

F off. I don't have time for "Oh yeah and you're wrong and suck I have no substance to this post but you're wrong and suck". Please redirect any further communication to /dev/null.

[PallentisLunam]

F off. I don't have time for "Oh yeah and you're wrong and suck I have no substance to this post but you're wrong and suck". Please redirect any further communication to /dev/null.

Okay, let's do this.

A = A
A =/= A & B

You're wrong = You're wrong

You're wrong =/= You're wrong and you suck

The fact that I disagree with you, even repeatedly, doesn't mean that I think you suck, despite the fact that I may have shouted it at my computer once or twice.

Although I can't speak for anyone else on this thread, even though I believe it to be true of most posters, including yourself, I have never argued in bad faith. I legitimately and sincerely believe my interpretation of the rules and I think that you do the same for yours. Sometimes I have been shown that my reading is wrong, and I'm willing to accept that, but only when presented with good arguments. The substance of my post was an attempt to, sarcastically, relay this message.

The fact that we vehemently disagree doesn't mean I have any problem with you as a person.

A variety of massive, mostly inflexible spells, such as whatevering hand spells, which are usually large, can all pass through the half-inch gaps in a forcecage. However, you cannot shoot someone inside such a cage with a longbow unless the longbow itself can fit through the gaps.

As for this.

Hmmm… Thinking about it more, I actually think there is some ambiguity and what it means for a "spell" to pass through the gaps. After all, it's not like a "spell" is an object that moves around. Does it mean spell effects— *quickly casts Protection from Energy (Flamewar)*

If the Whatevering Hand spells count, then Summon Monster would have to as well (both of them are temporary spells with the hand/monster listed in the Effect line). So then, for instance, a Colossal Fiendish Monstrous Spider (which is much bigger than the entire cage!) would fit through the gaps.

Yes, this is why I chose to address the second post rather than the first. Just because a spell can pass through the bars doesn't mean that its creation (effect) can do the same. (Although I think there is a rule against summoning a creature that is too large to fit in a given space). The more interesting conflict would be ray spells and spells like Acid Arrow but I think we can assume that these can fall under the umbrella of "(arrows and similar ranged attacks)"

The spell may pass through and manifest its creation (effect) on either the inside or the outside the cage but once present the creation (effect) cannot pass through

[Debatra]

Funny as it is to imagine the giant spider thing, I'll have to agree with the note about "effects" here. Other than that though, it's still a dysfunction. There are plenty of other spells that should be too big to fit through, but now still do because of RAW. Like Meteor Swarm (whose meteors are two feet thick).

[Jormengand]

What, then, does it mean for the spell to be able to pass through? Just that the spell can be targeted at a creature inside the cage? But with a few exceptions like fireball, spell castings don't have to physically travel to the location, but the actual spells themselves (such as the actual hands) do. So there's no "Passing through" the bars for a spell casting - sure, you need line of effect through the bars, but you had that anyway.

What about damaging conjurations like acid arrow? Is the arrow the "Effect of the spell" passing through or the actual spell passing through? It's listed as being the effect, but it seems a bit absurd to say that the rule wounldn't permit it to pass through (irrespective of the fact that it can probably pass through anyway due to its size). I'm asking for a frie... uh, an orb of acid, which is 3 inches diameter.

[Debatra]

Unfortunately, the effects of instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells are explicitly nonmagical (this rule also allows them to be used on a creature in an AMF). So an Acid Arrow would most likely fit through anyway, but they would be safe from an Orb of Acid.

EDIT: Citations

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tm#conjuration
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

[PallentisLunam]

Funny as it is to imagine the giant spider thing, I'll have to agree with the note about "effects" here. Other than that though, it's still a dysfunction. There are plenty of other spells that should be too big to fit through, but now still do because of RAW. Like Meteor Swarm (whose meteors are two feet thick).

Fair enough.

What, then, does it mean for the spell to be able to pass through? Just that the spell can be targeted at a creature inside the cage? But with a few exceptions like fireball, spell castings don't have to physically travel to the location, but the actual spells themselves (such as the actual hands) do. So there's no "Passing through" the bars for a spell casting - sure, you need line of effect through the bars, but you had that anyway.

Well it does mean that one has line of effect through the bars of the cage but it also means that spells with areas centered inside or outside the cage have the potential to include targets that are inside and outside the cage.

What about damaging conjurations like acid arrow? Is the arrow the "Effect of the spell" passing through or the actual spell passing through? It's listed as being the effect, but it seems a bit absurd to say that the rule wounldn't permit it to pass through (irrespective of the fact that it can probably pass through anyway due to its size). I'm asking for a frie... uh, an orb of acid, which is 3 inches diameter.

I did specifically mention acid arrow.

With regards to orbs: they are effects and a a 3 inch orb cannot pass through a 1/2 inch gap. Since they have effect lines these are not among the dysfunctional spells.

[EliDupree]

I notice that this dysfunction isn't unique to Forcecage – the ordinary Line of Effect rules permit Line of Effect through any barrier that has a "hole of at least one square foot through it", so Meteor Swarm can put a 2-foot sphere through a 1-foot hole without any extra spells assisting it. (And even though it references Fireball, it makes no Fireball-like special allowance for the spheres to run into something before they reach their destination.)

[Nifft]

so Meteor Swarm can put a 2-foot sphere through a 1-foot hole

That sounds raunchy enough to get you slapped in Rel Astra.

[Jormengand]

AFAICT a mohrg seems to have an invisible +1 bonus to initiative (4 dex plus 4 improved initiatve equals... 9?). Also its FFAC is 14 and should be 19.

EDIT: Does somene want to start a new CDH? Because the old one hasn't been updated for two and a half years.

[EliDupree]

I was just rereading the Forcecage text again, and noticed that the text:

You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover.

makes no exception for attacks by another creature that's also inside the cage.

[Jormengand]

I was just rereading the Forcecage text again, and noticed that the text:

makes no exception for attacks by another creature that's also inside the cage.

That's brilliant. Forcecage is brilliant.

---

A snake may accidentally step on caltrops, injuring its foot, so long as it's not your opponent.

---

16 1-ounce vials of ink still do not weigh 1 lb.

[flare'90]

A snake may accidentally step on caltrops, injuring its foot, so long as it's not your opponent.

The SRD is unhelpful, but the PHB has this:

The DM judges the effectiveness of caltrops against unusual
opponents. A Small monstrous centipede, for example, can slither
through an area containing caltrops with no chance of hurting itself,
and a fire giant wearing fire giant-sized boots is immune to normal-
size caltrops. (They just get stuck in the soles of his boots.)

So yeah, by RAW an allied snake can injure itself on a catlrop, while an opponent might not.

This is again the usual "the rules are written for Medium/Small humanoids" problem.

[Celestia]

16 1-ounce vials of ink still do not weigh 1 lb.

An empty vial weighs 1/10 lb. A vial of ink is weightless. This means that ink weighs -1/10 lb per ounce. A common barrel weighs 30 lbs and can hold 43 gallons of liquid. Thus, a barrel can hold 5,504 ounces of ink making its total weight -520.4 pounds. Encumbrance is no longer an issue as long as you carry ink barrels.

[Debatra]

Ink: The Poor Man's Bag of Holding.

...Wait, no. At 8gp per ounce, that barrel of ink would actually cost 44,034gp (counting the 2gp barrel).