Returning the Fighter to relevance.

[Nifft]

You talking about me?

Looks like I was talking about Milo v3.

Follow the quote arrow in the posts backwards to see the post to which I had responded.

[stanprollyright]

The reason why I see crafting as at the edge of what I'm willing to accept is that in storytelling of basically all sorts, the person who makes the weapons is almost never the one using them. How many old stories, myths and legends and such, have the hero make their weapon of choice? How many of those have the hero not use magic directly to face their foes? However, it's an increasingly common thing in modern RPGs, though rarely as part of the story, and is only one step removed from combat.

Does this help your headcannon?

Craft (Int)
[...]
Repairing Items
Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price.

[Morphic tide]

Does this help your headcannon?

Stuff like that is actually a point against it for me. But again, I can accept Craft ability in base Fighter. I don't like the idea, but am not harshly against it.

[stanprollyright]

Stuff like that is actually a point against it for me.

How so? Seems pretty reasonable for a soldier-type to learn to maintain his own equipment.

[Morphic tide]

How so? Seems pretty reasonable for a soldier-type to learn to maintain his own equipment.

Soldier type is not the only way to have a Fighter. And maintenance is rather different from fixing it after it is broken entirely. However, I just dislike that. I'm not fully against it.

What I want to see in Fighter is five things:

Fighting so well that they can be valid in higher op Caster fights, if only as the guy who does the killing to end it/die component of scry or die tactics.

Being able to trade potential combat power for non-combat things, with Fighter feats for group fighting and managing armies, which extends to court drama.

Proper class feature replacing Fighter feats. They have a lot of feats, it's their thing. Get a way to use them. Like having not-strictly-combat things as options.

Stuff that ties normally-separate-from-combat things to combat. Better Feign stuff encourages Bluff skill, and Moral bonuses can be set to scale off Diplomacy.

A few class features that make basic combat ability always happen. I'm fine with them enabling non-combat power, or requiring non-combat power. Like Feigns.


Overall, allow the option for the Fighter to be absolutely nothing but combat focus without a single feat or class feature as dead weight. If they have to pick up non-combat power anyway for their class feature to work, great! It's like how Bards can't ignore their buff skills. Or be unable to be emergency party face.

[Keltest]

How so? Seems pretty reasonable for a soldier-type to learn to maintain his own equipment.

while this is true, the skills used for maintaining equipment, like sharpening your sword and replacing a few links in your chainmail, are very different from the skills used to produce the equipment in the first place. If your sword gets a big crack in it, for example, youre never going to repair that in the field, period. You would basically need to reforge the entire blade, which will probably result in a reduction in quality, size or both. Unless you grew up in a culture where blacksmithing skill is taught as part of your general education as a child, it is likely that your soldier type person doesn't have the faintest idea how to actually make a sword.

Having said that, lots of legends involve the hero creating their own weapon, so I would allow it as a class skill myself.

[Thaneus]

Dunno if someone else already mentioned it, but one Class feature can be something like Bardic Knowledge, just for the art of war instead. Lets call it Knowledge of War or something.
Get you class level on check related to war be it history (important battlegrounds), craft (maintaining war tools), profession (commanding officer), ... as 1st level class feature.
But it should not be possible with this to craft a trebuchet or a trench, however he knows the place where to build and how to use it.
This would already cover some loose ends.

Another idea, something like Aptitude from Warblade but a bit different: At 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 a Fighter can select a new "primary" weapon. For this he gain a new set of "X" number of own fighter only feats which he can replace as a set. To attune to the new primary weapon he need to exercise 1 hour any time of day, which should not be interrupted.

Like this he can adapt to several situations and is more versatile, but please don't hit me if this is to powerful (at least for me it does not seem like it).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dunno if someone else already mentioned it, but one Class feature can be something like Bardic Knowledge, just for the art of war instead. Lets call it Knowledge of War or something.

You mean like this?

[Ivogel]

How about...

At every odd-numbered fighter level, increase one of your ability scores by 1. It can't be your highest score (if multiple ability scores are tied, they all count as highest, disregard any increases through magic items or other special modifiers)

This way the fighter gets something every level. Increase charisma for the leader, Int for the tactician and skill points, Wis for the grizzled experienced mentor, etc. Also helps with the fighters poor saves and easier access to feats like combat expertise and the combat focus chain.

[Thaneus]

You mean like this?

I know someone already would have thought about this.

[stanprollyright]

Soldier type is not the only way to have a Fighter.

So now every Fighter concept needs to use every single class skill? Not all Rogues are thieves, maybe Sleight of Hand should be cross-class for them.

And maintenance is rather different from fixing it after it is broken entirely

while this is true, the skills used for maintaining equipment, like sharpening your sword and replacing a few links in your chainmail, are very different from the skills used to produce the equipment in the first place.

If you can point me to another skill in D&D that's more appropriate, I'm all ears (and don't say "profession(soldier)"). Remember, you take penalties to craft for not having the proper equipment (in this case a forge), and you still need raw materials, meaning you've got to be in a place where you can buy or gather the appropriate materials. Also, not all weapons and armor are made from metal. It'd be pretty easy to make a spear or a quarterstaff or a club while trekking through the forest.

[Morphic tide]

So now every Fighter concept needs to use every single class skill? Not all Rogues are thieves, maybe Sleight of Hand should be cross-class for them.

What part of this:

However, I just dislike that. I'm not fully against it.

do you not understand? A class skill is entirely fine with me, it's that someone implied having a class feature related to it. Class skills can be ignored. Seriously, off of stuff directly related to combat there's a lot of Knowledge skills and Bluff and Sense Motive for Feign. I'm fine with Fighter keying stuff off of Intelligence and Charisma.

[stanprollyright]

A class skill is entirely fine with me, it's that someone implied having a class feature related to it. Class skills can be ignored. Seriously, off of stuff directly related to combat there's a lot of Knowledge skills and Bluff and Sense Motive for Feign. I'm fine with Fighter keying stuff off of Intelligence and Charisma.

I'm not sure who implied what that you're responding to, but I at least am not talking about specific class features related to crafting, more like general class features that let you gain your choice of extra class skills, or add your BAB to a skill or three, or letting you use Profession (Solder) in place of certain skills.

I also like the idea that Improved Feint gives you Bluff as permanent class skill, Leadership gives you Diplomacy, etc. so that Fighters who want those skills can get them without sacrificing combat power.

On that note, I am starting to understand why people are reluctant to have Diplomacy as a native class skill for the Fighter. "Diplomacy" is the opposite of violence, and Fighters are specialists in violence. I would like there to be a relatively simple and straightforward way to get it if you choose, so that General Badass can negotiate a surrender without taking Bard levels.

Another idea, something like Aptitude from Warblade but a bit different: At 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 a Fighter can select a new "primary" weapon. For this he gain a new set of "X" number of own fighter only feats which he can replace as a set. To attune to the new primary weapon he need to exercise 1 hour any time of day, which should not be interrupted.

Yeah, something like this would be nice. I even think that as you level up (or maybe with a feat) you should eventually gain the ability to switch it as a full-round action. I think I'd personally limit it to: "You get Weapon Focus for free, which you can switch between weapons. This takes an hour of uninterrupted training at level 1, a minute at level 7, a full round action at 13. Any other feats that apply to a specific weapon (i.e. weapon specialization) can also be switched with this ability."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

On that note, I am starting to understand why people are reluctant to have Diplomacy as a native class skill for the Fighter. "Diplomacy" is the opposite of violence, and Fighters are specialists in violence. I would like there to be a relatively simple and straightforward way to get it if you choose, so that General Badass can negotiate a surrender without taking Bard levels.

The best generals of the modern era could Diplomacize with the best of them. I don't imagine you get a bigger circumstance bonus than slaughtering an entire army with your own two hands.

[stanprollyright]

That sounds like Intimidate to me

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That sounds like Intimidate to me

Historical generals often did forge treaties and alliances, so there's no reason why someone in a leadership position (even a warrior) shouldn't know how to use Diplomacy when it comes right down to it.

Especially if a fighter is supposed to come across as a master of various facets of war. Treaties and alliances are a HUGE part of that.

If your particular character is more of a grunt or a Hercules type, then just don't invest in it.

[Morphic tide]

Historical generals often did forge treaties and alliances, so there's no reason why someone in a leadership position (even a warrior) shouldn't know how to use Diplomacy when it comes right down to it.

Especially if a fighter is supposed to come across as a master of various facets of war. Treaties and alliances are a HUGE part of that.

If your particular character is more of a grunt or a Herculese type, then just don't invest in it.

And the option to not actively put anything into it is important to me. Of course, I'm working on a writeup to be criticized in this thread for more specific things, mostly to know what to put into feats. One of the intents is to have non-combat ability as a side effect of pursuing combat ability. Also, having a to-hit vast enough to eat up -15 to to-hit without much issue. Granted, that's more a case of room for optimizing to the high heavens than being inherently bull****. Charisma and 1/2 Intelligence to to-hit isn't that huge, unless you are stacking for it. And if you are stacking for it, it's not that much bigger than going whole hog into Strength. Besides, the Charisma to to-hit is temporary. Longer than most fights, applies to the group with Will saves getting the same boost, practical cooldown should be short enough that DMs can excuse it most of the time. Granted, in my limited play experience, they could have little issues with declaring cooldown not over, so Fort save or Fatigue. Seriously, 10 minutes is a grand 100 rounds. 50 times your move speed distance, if you are going slow. D&D movement is weird.

[Flickerdart]

Historical generals often did forge treaties and alliances, so there's no reason why someone in a leadership position (even a warrior) shouldn't know how to use Diplomacy when it comes right down to it.

Since the "retirement plan" of an archetypical fighter is carving out his own kingdom, leadership and diplomatic type abilities towards the later levels make sense. Many mundane heroes of folk tales also best their foes through the alliances they forged with various magical animals and beings, so this sort of ability makes sense for two independent reasons.

You'd need more than just Diplomacy, of course - perhaps an ability that allows the fighter to extract a symbolic token from an ally that represents that ally's loyalty, providing the fighter with the ability to draw on that ally's power in some way. Such a mechanic could also be used for fighters who'd rather take trophies from defeated monsters. Did Hercules need a wizard to craft the Nemean Lion's hide into impenetrable magic armor? No, he just skinned the overgrown cat himself!

[Morphic tide]

Since the "retirement plan" of an archetypical fighter is carving out his own kingdom, leadership and diplomatic type abilities towards the later levels make sense. Many mundane heroes of folk tales also best their foes through the alliances they forged with various magical animals and beings, so this sort of ability makes sense for two independent reasons.

You'd need more than just Diplomacy, of course - perhaps an ability that allows the fighter to extract a symbolic token from an ally that represents that ally's loyalty, providing the fighter with the ability to draw on that ally's power in some way. Such a mechanic could also be used for fighters who'd rather take trophies from defeated monsters. Did Hercules need a wizard to craft the Nemean Lion's hide into impenetrable magic armor? No, he just skinned the overgrown cat himself!

...dammit, now I actually want to figure out how to make that work... TO THE WRITEUP! I've had the tab open working over my Fighter fix for two days already... Why must people give me more fitting ideas too complicated for feats!

[Flickerdart]

...dammit, now I actually want to figure out how to make that work... TO THE WRITEUP! I've had the tab open working over my Fighter fix for two days already... Why must people give me more fitting ideas too complicated for feats!

The extract gift spell could be a decent starting point, allowing fighters to grant themselves certain bonuses in a ritual involving a willing ally or defeated enemy. Extract gift confers skill or ability score bonuses, but you can add other stuff. Imbue with spell ability is another option you could look at for inspiration, or the Spellthief class for a hostile version. Ur-priests steal powers from unwilling (and unwitting) Outsiders, which might also be helpful.

[stanprollyright]

...dammit, now I actually want to figure out how to make that work... TO THE WRITEUP! I've had the tab open working over my Fighter fix for two days already... Why must people give me more fitting ideas too complicated for feats!

Honestly I think the best way to incorporate everything is to fill dead levels with "Fighter Talents" that you can mix and match.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly I think the best way to incorporate everything is to fill dead levels with "Fighter Talents" that you can mix and match.

Just make sure they're level-appropriate. "Technically the fighter can take this at level 1!" unfairly nerfed a lot of feats.

[Morphic tide]

Just make sure they're level-appropriate. "Technically the fighter can take this at level 1!" unfairly nerfed a lot of feats.

The fix to that issue is scaling feats, one of the surprisingly rare things that makes a lot of things work a lot better because they don't start big. And the Fighter Talents sounds like a way to have Fighter feats that aren't so easily lootable by other classes, while being noticeably stronger because there's a fixed number of them...

So, anyone got actual crunch suggestions for these things and suggestions for how to pack down feat chain taxes into scaling feats? My idea for turning the 4 feat Weapon Focus chain into a single scaling feat is to have it scale with level in some way, while specifically counting as the actual chain for prerequisites at the needed levels. Another feat tax remover is to use the thing that makes Monk/Truenamer a monster that can't be hit. Sure, the build involves a horribly worded PRC that tries to merge Monk and Truenamer things, but it exists... I can't remember what they are called, but they are abilities you automatically get for having specific feats. You clip one more feat off of feat chains with that, so you can have enough feats to have serious investment in two or three different types of fighting as a fighter with some left over for non combat stuff. I think the ideal goal is to have two good fighting styles available with enough class resources left over for some social stuff, for Fighters. That way, having good melee, ranged and workable social capacity in one build is doable. Makes Fighter a solid t3 if it's pulled off.

[Keltest]

If you can point me to another skill in D&D that's more appropriate, I'm all ears (and don't say "profession(soldier)"). Remember, you take penalties to craft for not having the proper equipment (in this case a forge), and you still need raw materials, meaning you've got to be in a place where you can buy or gather the appropriate materials. Also, not all weapons and armor are made from metal. It'd be pretty easy to make a spear or a quarterstaff or a club while trekking through the forest.

Bit late, but how about the appropriate weapon proficiency? Being proficient with a longsword means you know how to use it effectively and how to take care of it.

[Hal0Badger]

Just make sure they're level-appropriate. "Technically the fighter can take this at level 1!" unfairly nerfed a lot of feats.

Tagging a BAB requirement, and that requirement only, would fix a lot of that issue.

Best part of playing a spellcaster is, usually when you hit a certain level where new spell-level is unlocked, all the options from that spell list is auto-avaliable to you. All you need is that caster level.

One of the worst part of playing a fighter is, even the slightly interested feats are tied behind feat taxes, usually useless crap feats no-one would ever bother if they were not preq. Like dodge, or Weapon focus.

[OldTrees1]

Tagging a BAB requirement, and that requirement only, would fix a lot of that issue.

Robilar's Gambit(has a BAB+12 requirement) vs the Karmic Strike feat chain is a good playtest of that theory.

I think you are correct.

[Arbane]

Tagging a BAB requirement, and that requirement only, would fix a lot of that issue.

Best part of playing a spellcaster is, usually when you hit a certain level where new spell-level is unlocked, all the options from that spell list is auto-avaliable to you. All you need is that caster level.

One of the worst part of playing a fighter is, even the slightly interested feats are tied behind feat taxes, usually useless crap feats no-one would ever bother if they were not preq. Like dodge, or Weapon focus.

Agreed. If someone wanted to nerf wizards immensely, making spells require you to know/memorize them in chains would be a good way. (Want Fireball? Make sure you have Burning Hands and Scorching Ray memorized first.)

One Nice Thing For Fighters Pathfinder has been working on is better alternatives to the often-useless Combat Expertise.

[Vaz]

Looking at it more and more, the Warblade is simply the way to go, but coming up with a custom Discipline is better.

After all, you can be a fighter without being a Fighter. What a fighter does is simply have Bonus Feats. That the FBF list sucks is an issue.

From my experiences in the military, while the stereotypical jarhead who eats metal (on both sides of the figurative coin) is a good soldier, that Jarhead knows how to fight, and do it well with a variety of weapons. But on top of that, they have knowledge of battle tactics how to hide, move quietly, and at speed. I mean the typical infantry soldier in any Western military is a either a Scout, or a Ranger, but a Fighter shouldn't be thick unless the intention is to be thick throygh character concept.

However, Warblade fixes that; sure you get less bonus feats (4, rather than 11), you also get a Strikes, Boosts, and Stances.

13 Strikes/Boosts, and 4 Stances, and maybe a choice from twice that.

Some of the other things soldiers can do are awesome, such as long periods without rest, or standing on guard, covering long distances at speed, looking after the party in extreme conditions. Completely obviated by the party being slower, until the party get a horse.

Things like Endurance (Diehard?), Run, Alertness, Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Irin will, Great Fortitude, Quick Draw, Self Sufficient, Toughness/Greater Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Specialization Tree;

All of these things within the PHB feel like stuff a fighter should be able to do. Although I'm looking from an established military here as a background rather than someone who punches peoples faces in in a tavern.

[ngilop]

Wow... so late to this party it is not funny.

I have to agree with what was said
It not more feats that is going to help, it feats that are actually competitive against spell.

For example I made a series of war cry feats that range from bless to shout to vigor. Then I broke the tactical fighter and dread naut prc abilities down into feats. As well as made combat feats scale based on base attack bonus

Giving the fighter more skill points and more skill is of course a must have fix.

Then you need to give the fighter actual class abilities.
Example: I gave the fighter the ability to do a full attack as a standard action, gave him a self-only time stop that could be used con mod times a day, allowed him to turn people into 3rd level warriors for X amount of days etc.


In the end you just need to give fighters abilities that seem appropriate at that particular level.

First to fifth fighter is decent as is, just a few add-ons is nice.

Sixth to tenth the fighter needs to have a combat edge over all other classes as well as some out of combat utility plus he needs to start getting abilities that are not easily duplicated with spells

Eleventh to thirteen the fighter needs to start having super human abilities, jumping further able to shrug off insane amounts of punishments, command others through sheer force of personality

Fourteenthat through eighteenth the fighter should be breaking the 'laws' of physics. Sundering mountains, moving so fast you cannot see it, ignoring Spells Cuz he said so.

Nineteenth and twentieth the fighter should be the single most feared person to go up against combat wise, the dude chopped down a damn mountain to get to the underworld, ripped the arm off an invulnerable legendary creature and bet it to death... with its own arm. Fought the god of war's Avatar to a stand still for 3 days and nights.


That's what the fighter should be doing in my vision. But I am definitely pretty alone in that vision on these boards

[Morphic tide]

Wow... so late to this party it is not funny.

I have to agree with what was said
It not more feats that is going to help, it feats that are actually competitive against spell.

For example I made a series of war cry feats that range from bless to shout to vigor. Then I broke the tactical fighter and dread naut prc abilities down into feats. As well as made combat feats scale based on base attack bonus

Giving the fighter more skill points and more skill is of course a must have fix.

Then you need to give the fighter actual class abilities.
Example: I gave the fighter the ability to do a full attack as a standard action, gave him a self-only time stop that could be used con mod times a day, allowed him to turn people into 3rd level warriors for X amount of days etc.


In the end you just need to give fighters abilities that seem appropriate at that particular level.

First to fifth fighter is decent as is, just a few add-ons is nice.

Sixth to tenth the fighter needs to have a combat edge over all other classes as well as some out of combat utility plus he needs to start getting abilities that are not easily duplicated with spells

Eleventh to thirteen the fighter needs to start having super human abilities, jumping further able to shrug off insane amounts of punishments, command others through sheer force of personality

Fourteenthat through eighteenth the fighter should be breaking the 'laws' of physics. Sundering mountains, moving so fast you cannot see it, ignoring Spells Cuz he said so.

Nineteenth and twentieth the fighter should be the single most feared person to go up against combat wise, the dude chopped down a damn mountain to get to the underworld, ripped the arm off an invulnerable legendary creature and bet it to death... with its own arm. Fought the god of war's Avatar to a stand still for 3 days and nights.


That's what the fighter should be doing in my vision. But I am definitely pretty alone in that vision on these boards

Because a lot of that stuff in either nonsense that has basically nothing to do with Fighter or is far more fitting for Barbarian.