Erfworld 68 - Page 62

[Warfare]

Having no stats means he probly does not give a bonus to troops which is one of the biggest assets for having a warlord in a stack.

Parson does have stats, it's just that no one can see them. In Parson's Klog 4, he says "As Chief Warlord, my bonus applies to all units of my capital, so we know that my bonus is 2."

[Krellen]

I am dissatisfied with this strip, because I don't want to see Ansom pull his boops out of the vise. I want to see him get beaten. Ansom irritates me, and the sooner he's out of the picture, the better.

This strip was definitely not worth all the delays.

[Ultimatum479]

Units in Erfworld can retreat to the *opposite* side from which they engaged the enemy as long as they have enough move for it (though obviously that's risky as they'll have to pass near the enemy stacks and get damage from them).

Yeah, they can get damage not only during the attack but also during the subsequent process of retreating, it appears. Retreating is not always successful.

I'm expecting that Zamussels is hunting not the wounded Dwagons but the ground troops at Gobwin Knob, now that there's probably not more than a token air force protecting them. There are probably spells which could've protected against that, but again Parson's rushing into things before learning all he could about magic means his troops are now useless against the Gwiffons and Archons. He's going to have to make his Dwagons retreat to defend GK, unless Wanda can somehow get involved, since it _is_ Jillian leading the charge.

[Girl Wonder]

I am dissatisfied with this strip, because I don't want to see Ansom pull his boobs out of the vise. I want to see him get beaten. Ansom irritates me, and the sooner he's out of the picture, the better.

This strip was definitely not worth all the delays.

I shall speak to this strip's defense because it showed (to me at least) a couple of things I had been assuming all along and that (I hope) a larger number of people will start to agree with, also.

#1) Ansom is not the arrogant, stupid egomaniac a lot of people seem to expect him to be
#2) Vinnie is not 'the brains' of the coalition (though I would be willing to concede he seems to be 'the insight.)

Ansom clearly listens to and considers advice (he's not arrogant...) and understands options (...or stupid, though I will say he's proud, given the way he doesn't seem to relish the thought of being rescued... doubtless prefering the role of rescuer, at least where Jillian is concerned). He also seems pretty taken aback when Vinnie supposes the trap was set for Ansom, personally. The egonmaniac, upon realizing the trap, would likely have assumed (or at least had it occur to him) that he was the target, the world revolving about him, after all.

It's a coalition. Vinnie is intelligent, and very insightful, but I've seen posted so many times that he is 'the brains behind the coaltion' and that Ansom is merely a stuffed shirt. I put forth that there are more than one astute mind (not just Vinnie's) on the coalition side, and Ansom's is one of them.

How many times have we been told to dislike the handsome, confident rich kid simply on the basis that he's handsome, confident, and rich? Popular culture has been having a decades-long love affair with tearing down that archetype, doubtless in response to centuries of 'Prince-Charming' type tales. Time and again we're shown that the handsome exterior hides an ugly interior, that confidence is arrogance, that wealth feeds a spoiled sense of entitlement. Then we're supposed to cheer for the outsider who comes in and shows us that the emperor has no clothes. I could quote countless examples from all manner of media over the last 50 years, no doubt most of you could, too.

The thing is, that sterotype is just as narrow-minded and lacking in reality as the 'prince charming' character, it's just that a lot of society hasn't realized it yet. The deconstruction of the Prince Charming convention is now, itself, conventional.

That's why I like Ansom, indeed, why I like a lot of the characters in Erfworld. They break both the old and new conventions and seem a bit more like real people. Ansom MAY be the best example of this (I shan't make up my own mind on that until we get inside Stanley and possibly Jillian's heads a little more.) He's handsome. He's rich. He's powerful. And yes, he's a little proud and believes in both the right and the responsibility of the aristocracy to lead. But he's not a vainglorious stooge, a pompous and arrogant caricature, nor has he ever been presented that way, though a lot of people continue to make that assumption, despite strips like today's.

You can't help it if Ansom annoys you, some characters just rub some people the wrong way (Wanda drives me up the wall, for example), but I will speak in his defense, and in defense of today's strip, if only because, to me, it showed me a little more of what I was hoping to be the case all along, and another reason why I like Erfworld.

[ChowGuy]

What I have no handle on is his plan 1.
The plan that woke him in the middle of the night. The plan that involved moving troops at night - even though there appears to be no functional difference between moving last thing at night and first thing the next morning.

[From your own link]
Parson: "Those dwagons we left in the trees had move left over. I want to use it now, before dawn." (italics his, underline added)

Seems clear to me that what he wanted was to use up the remaining move from the previous turn, before the dwagons' move reset to max at dawn. As such there is a very big difference, since his next plan required dividiing the dwagons between those with less then 56 move that could not attack, and those with greater move that could. Had he been able to move some or all of the dwagons closer at night, he would have had that much more move/range and mor units with which to selectively attack (the 'splotable mechanic) and might not have needed the fort at all. All of the dwagons would have been nestled all snug and waiting (first half) to strike at the column and return to GK (second half) in a single turn, rather then requiring two turns.

[sihnfahl]

There must be some reason for its scarcity.

You could postulate that casters, and even more so foolamancers, are rare units to acquire. For example, despite the obvious advantage of having lookamancers, Ansom doesn't have any.

Still, I read "he would rather believe A than B" where B is very unlikely to imply that A is almost as unlikely. I think Wanda's statement is most naturally read to mean that Ansom is so convinced he couldn't have been bested that he'd "rather believe" anything, no matter how outlandish, before he'd believe that -- even something as outlandish as Stanley veiling his units.

It also could be read as 'Ansom would prefer to think that Stanley would do something as silly as veil his wounded units in the middle hex to make Ansom THINK he was led on a wild goose chase rather than admit he was truly fooled.' Why the diversionary tactics if the hex wasn't empty? Why sacrifice the dwagons for an empty hex? When Ansom went in, he wasn't thinking about possible traps; he was just thinking Stanley was trying to fool him.

It certainly sounds like they're mutually exclusive from the comic. If Jillian and the Archons don't have the strength to take on all of the wounded A dwagons themselves, then "The Hunt" would require Ansom and Vinnie to join them AFTER Jillian has found them, thus making "The Flight" impossible.

But if the only way Jillian will find them is by entering the hex that they're in, that would put her into combat with the dwagons and warlords. Even if they withdraw, they might take a few hits in the doing... and make it even less possible to defeat the dwagons in the first place, Ansom or no.
And what lines make you think they're mutually exclusive?

Perhaps, though, veiling is only an unlikely move in this case because it wouldn't have had much of a chance of making any difference. After all, Ansom went charging in, anyway.

The veiling would have provided further protection to the wounded dwagons and warlords. Given Ansom's reaction, we can reason out that veiled units can't be found by Vinnie's bat scouts.
As it was, all that had to happen was a single bat stumble across the hex and Ansom would know what he was up against, where it was, and how strong it is.
By veiling the hex, even a lucky move by a bat wouldn't have revealed the warlords and dwagons. Ansom would have to do like he's apparently doing now - hoping to find the dwagons by sending high-move flying units led by a warlord on a scouting mission.

[ag30476]

Parson does have stats, it's just that no one can see them. In Parson's Klog 4, he says "As Chief Warlord, my bonus applies to all units of my capital, so we know that my bonus is 2."

I stand corrected "As Chief Warlod, my leadership bonus applies to all units of my capital, so we know that my bonus is 2. This is not too great."

So he does have stats, just no one can see them. But they are not great stats. Anyway, the point is, Lord Hamster is a strategist not a fighter.

[normalphil]

Self-important pontification that opens by criticizing beloved experts (the authors, Vinnie Doombats) invites skeptism. When you compound that by being wrong, derision.

No game would ever allow you to retreat out a different hex side than you entered

Hammer of the Scotts, and most games in the Columbia 'blocks' vien (which are quite popular). Any number of others (quite few AH bookshelves). Hammer of the Scotts is notable because you aren't obligated to fight back, a unit can retreat as soon as its turn to fight comes up (Makes Light Cavalry a real annoyance, If Erfworld worked like that Archer units could retreat before they got shot at, provided they had a place to go). Assume I just mocked you for a few paragraphs of text, paying particular attention to you being an appaerent neophyte wargamer trying to pass himself off as experienced enough to use 'no game would ever' in a statement.

The only "exceptions" in the cannon would be two cases where you are not really retreating to begin with.

Option 1: if the troops in the hex couldn't attack you to begin with, say if you were invisible or flying and they were non-flying, then you simply move through the enemy hex. Not applicable here.

Option 2: if you have an overrun situation where you have a far bigger force than the defender has. An overrun rule usually says something like you have to leave behind enough troops equal to some multiple of the defenders, say double or triple, sometimes even x4. However it may be that "double" is counted in terms of physical number of units or physical number of stacks instead of combat effectiveness. Even so you'd lose a lot more than 4 bats. At a minimum 10 I would think. Perhaps this is what Vinny means in which case he's using the wrong terminology.

At any rate there goes the stunt bike joke illustration -- does that mean it cannot be used now?.

Look, there is a vast number of games with the mechanic that you can show up to a combat, fight one round (sometimes you can fight back, in others you can't if you intend to retreat), and then retreat at the end of the round any adjacent non-enemy-occupied hex or region. Again with the mocking.

Vinny also is wrong about his plan 2.
Parson would have the dwagons selectively target stacks so as to ignore the Gumps. Vinny doesn't realise this even though DUH that was the whole point of the attack on the siege units - selective targeting of non-flying stacks by warlords leading flying stacks (link is to klog 6). vinny! Parson just pulled that same trick on you!

At any rate it looks to me that this combat sequence just went over the even horizon : there will be no time left for another big combat scene like this. I think Ansom is going to get defeated here.

You're assuming the Gumps don't get to fight at all just because the Dwagons have the option of selecting their targets. Try to think through what you just said; if what you think about the how the rules work is true then the Dwagons wouldn't have gotten hitsied by archers on their attack runs. Insert more mocking.

Option 3 presumably has Jillian trying to attack the wounded A dwagons. An odd choice of all those predicted as possibilities as it exposes Jillian to a lot of danger to save Ansom. Of course if Ansom and Vinny have the move to get back to the column they could also join Jillian in fighting the A dwagons over the lake ... if they can locate the group using the bats.

The only thing Ansom and Vinny have confirmed is that they've got the move for a 2-hex dash.

You've managed to miss the fundamental point; croaking 19 Dwagons is nice, croaking 3 warlords is vital. What that means is that Jillian is under no obligation to actually win. As soon as she gets a mission-kill, she can leave. Parson has showed them the way.

[ag30476]

#2) Vinnie is not 'the brains' of the coalition (though I would be willing to concede he seems to be 'the insight.)

Clearly Vinnie himself defers to Ansom in-story. He plays Spoc to Ansom's Kirk. Vinnie has come up with catious warnings but no real plans. The plans are Kirk's...er Ansom's. This is not to say that Vinnie is not a great character or the Ansom is a great character or that either one could defeat Batman in a one to one fight. I'm just saying in-story, Vinnie clearly looks up to Ansom though as a reader one does not have too. Similarly, Parson and Wanda and everyone in-story look down on Stanley though many readers think he is a great character.

It's a coalition. Vinnie is intelligent, and very insightful, but I've seen posted so many times that he is 'the brains behind the coaltion' and that Ansom is merely a stuffed shirt. I put forth that there are more than one astute mind (not just Vinnie's) on the coalition side, and Ansom's is one of them.

It's a coalition yes but its personalized in only a few characters. On the one side we have Ansom, Vinnie and Jillian. On the other we have Stanley, Parson and Jillian. The other supporting characters in either camp are only there to...um support...Webinar reinforces that Jillian is suspect...Sizemore says "Mm". New characters would have to be introduced appropriately or you blow suspension of disbelief.

You can't help it if Ansom annoys you, some characters just rub some people the wrong way (Wanda drives me up the wall, for example), but I will speak in his defense, and in defense of today's strip, if only because, to me, it showed me a little more of what I was hoping to be the case all along, and another reason why I like Erfworld.

If there are characters you REALLY don't like...Snape for ex...then it's a sure sign they will stick around at least until the end of the story arc.

My problem with the story so far is not the characters. I like them all. Even Ansom in some ways because I know he is the guy that has to loose. Parson is the guy I want to see win. And Stanley...well Stanley is great...gets the best lines...but he can't get his way.

My problem with the story is the coalition itself. Although I'm fine with coalition being personalized by 3 main characters, I'm not fine with the coalition not seeming to have sufficient fire power to make it a real fight. This threatens suspension of disbelief for me.

The coalition has a 25-1 force advantage and 4 times the force needed to take GK if we are to believe estimates given by Wanda and Ansom. But Stanley has supreme command and control, perfect knowledge of Ansom's plans and control over a key unit on Ansom's side (Jillian), the ability to veil troops, an attuned weapon, command of the best units in the game (dwagons) a well defended fortress (GK), and a great strategist who is still unknown to the coalition.

So which is it? Do we have a real fight here or a cakewalk that could have been won by any relatively competent wargamer. Is Parson the perfect warlord or not?

To prove the fight and Parson's worth, the coalition, not Ansom, must show what it can do. That is, it does not matter if Parson wins this "little battle" of the empty hex. But if the coalition of Ansom and Vinnie and and Jillian and the other warlords and their troops and the Archons can't put up some resistance when confronted by Parson then it doesn't prove the Parson pwns but that the story suX0rz. Happily, I expect that we will be all pleasantly..or unpleasanlty...surprised.

[ChowGuy]

The thing is, that sterotype is just as narrow-minded and lacking in reality as the 'prince charming' character, it's just that a lot of society hasn't realized it yet. The deconstruction of the Prince Charming convention is now, itself, conventional.

Preaching to the choir, in my case. All of my arguments have been based not on "titles" or notions of what "has to be" based on how things are in "our" world, but on analysis of what's revealed in the strip. And that includes the fact that Ansom has expressed contempt for Stanley's intellect (probably deserved) and Wanda (who has demonstrated her understanding and use of insight) likewise considers Ansom to be predictable, with perhaps a superior force but an inferior grasp of tactics ("Supposed to be dumber then that").

But although its OT I'd like to add its not just that the current wave of "correct" liberal thinking has ingrained the notion that "the old class order is corrupt by definition," those who like to view this as some sort of "nobles versus commoners" conflict overlook the fact that fuedal systems are very much the standard in the sort of Medievalist/Fantasy setting we see here. Even the fact that Ansom is referred to as "Prince" does not entail that he is King Slately's heir. The title "Prince" may simply mean that (like Prince Ranier) he is the lord of some lesser holding, or it may simply be the title conferred on him by virtue of being Chief Warlord. By the same reasoning, Stanley's giving himself the title "Lord" Stanley merely reflects the reality of his position within the world paradigm. Would it have made any difference if, in some later time where "The Republic" is the political norm, he declared himself "President for Life"?

And yes, he's a little proud and believes in both the right and the responsibility of the aristocracy to lead.

Or perhaps in the right and responsibility of those whose entire life and training have been channeled to that end. Oddly, no less a "free thinker" then Thomas Jefferson held remarkably similar views, believing that it was not a privilege, but a solemn duty of the enlightened and educated to guide the government, rather then leave such things in the hands of the rabble. An "Aristocracy of Intellect" as it were. It was curiously Andrew Jackson, a man reviled by modern day "liberals" for a few actions that in today's world would be considered "wrong thinking" that advocated the ascendancy of the unwashed masses.

============

That is, it does not matter if Parson wins this "little battle" of the empty hex.

The "litlle battle" itself is (was) intended only as a delaying tactic. Even if he won the initial objective of destroying the siege, it was only to force the "big battle" into the tunnels. As such, no, it would not have been "End of Story" no matter how it turned out. But as a plot twist, I don't think we're ever going to see that battle come off. Instead, what we're going to see is a focus shift away from the battlefield and the "game" aspects, to more story-oriented interpersonal relations. Possibly triggered by Ansom's being taken prisoner, and the subsequent need for a rescue/escape plan. Simply because Parson finds himself "in a game world" does not mean "the game" is all there is to the strip, or that "the story suX0rz" because of it. Parson, here, is a "supporting character" even if he gets more on-screen time then some others. He's not even listed on the Cast page, and I don't think that was merely because Rob & Jamie didn't want to "foreshadow" anything when it was put up. It's a clear signal that this story is not just "Parson Gotti, in the Battle for Gobwin Knob" its about all the nuances of the struggle.

[Vreejack]

I have to wonder about this 'hunt' supposedly for the wounded dragons. On page 56, Ansom replies to the question of whether he has enough forces to face the wounded dragons and the warlords by mentioning that the warlords are uncroaked, giving him the advantage with the arkenpliers.

Even if Zam and the rest can find the dragons, it doesn't seem like they can defeat them without the pliers to defeat the warlords fast.

I thought Ansom was going to have to give Jillian the pliers, but it looks like he will probably have enough move to take the battle to the warlords himself. Maybe. Vinny said that he, Ansom and about a dozen bats had enough move to break through dwagons back into the column. This would indicate that they have enough move to fan out the bats, find the wounded dwagons and take the battle to them with Jillian and the archons.

Parson has no doubt been aware of this possibility all along, but I wonder how good his intelligence is on Ansom's movement range. If Ansom attacks the warlords on his last move I think we will see some frustrated outbirsts from our normally placid lipid golem. The power of the arkenpliers will probably be a surprise, too (everything else is, to him.)

Veiling might have helped here, too. Maybe. If Ansom had to fan out to "beat the bushes" and flush the dwagons then it might burn off his move, but if he can use the bats it's a piece of cake; Sir Leeroy & co. are right there, after all. Vinny cannot miss them, now.

When Ansom finds out they are over water it will give him pause. It's irrelevant to the fight (unless you drop an artifact) but it will be another one of those red flags that indicates that something is even more rotten than usual in Erfworld.

[Caledonian]

It was curiously Andrew Jackson, a man reviled by modern day "liberals" for a few actions that in today's world would be considered "wrong thinking" that advocated the ascendancy of the unwashed masses.

I don't think the genocide of the Cherokee, and the dismissal of the Supreme Court's rulings, to be something that only 'liberals' revile the man for.

[ag30476]

The "litlle battle" itself is (was) intended only as a delaying tactic. Even if he won the initial objective of destroying the siege, it was only to force the "big battle" into the tunnels. As such, no, it would not have been "End of Story" no matter how it turned out. But as a plot twist, I don't think we're ever going to see that battle come off. Instead, what we're going to see is a focus shift away from the battlefield and the "game" aspects, to more story-oriented interpersonal relations. Possibly triggered by Ansom's being taken prisoner, and the subsequent need for a rescue/escape plan.

I wouldn't mind that...Ansom being taken prisoner IF it got the coalition out of a jam. That is, if the coalition got on with the siege, then the story could go on as you said...with the seige a backdrop to interpersonal relations. But we must have suspension of disbelief...and right now it seems to me that all the advantages are on Parson/Stanley's side. To have a seige backdrop in the story, I need to believe the seige is possible and not something Parson can stop in a couple of more rounds.

Simply because Parson finds himself "in a game world" does not mean "the game" is all there is to the strip,...

Right and I have said that before. I like the non-game aspects of the world. And I expect that Parson has to learn to treat Erfworld as more than just a game.

...or that "the story suX0rz" because of it.

I meant that if in-story, Parson can very easily win over the coalition than one of the major story elements...the in-story war...is no longer a real element and thus the whole in-story setting...a war for power...would make no sense.

Parson, here, is a "supporting character" even if he gets more on-screen time then some others.

Here I have to disagree. Parson is THE hero, well anti-hero. Without Parson, it is the coalition that wins easily. Parson IS the plot twist that turns the story's setting on it's head.

He's not even listed on the Cast page,

So...I'm not reading the cast page or trying to guess at the rules that might or might not exist...I'm interested in the comic...the story, the character, the art as presented in the comic.

It's a clear signal that this story is not just "Parson Gotti, in the Battle for Gobwin Knob" its about all the nuances of the struggle.

The story is not the story of Parson alone but he is one of the leading characters in it. Stanley is the BBEG. These two can't be lost to the story without it becoming...well a whole 'nother story. Ansom, Vinnie, Jillian and Wanda are important protagonists too but they are not as critical. And this is not to say the other characters are not important to. You got love that marbit splitting a spidew's brain with an axe.

[Maerok]

I am dissatisfied with this strip, because I don't want to see Ansom pull his boobs out of the vise. I want to see him get beaten. Ansom irritates me, and the sooner he's out of the picture, the better.

This strip was definitely not worth all the delays.

Yeah, he's getting on my nerves. He only has one mode at this time, his way.

[Gefangnis]

You're assuming the Gumps don't get to fight at all just because the Dwagons have the option of selecting their targets. Try to think through what you just said; if what you think about the how the rules work is true then the Dwagons wouldn't have gotten hitsied by archers on their attack runs. Insert more mocking.

Actually, you're wrong about that. Only archer units get to attack anyways, as explained here, under critical fact #2. The gumps are presumably not archers.

I think 'The Hunt' entails Jillian finding the wounded dragons, then Ansom and Vinny joining her in attacking those dragons - I don't think she's strong enough (even with the Archons) to kill all the wounded dragons. However, I think the kind of control Wanda has an Jillian's likely desire to do so anyways might lead her to attack without getting Ansom and Vinny's help.

[DCR]

I am dissatisfied with this strip, because I don't want to see Ansom pull his boobs out of the vise.

... I sincerely hope that was a typo. Boops, perhaps?
This is getting common. Brain bleach and goggles should be standard forum equipment. The goggles, of course, do nothing, but the bleach supposedly helps in the removal of disturbing mental images.

[teratorn]

I shall speak to this strip's defense

And then Girl Wonder writes a lot of well thought stuff, namely

He's handsome. He's rich. He's powerful. And yes, he's a little proud and believes in both the right and the responsibility of the aristocracy to lead. But he's not a vainglorious stooge, a pompous and arrogant caricature, nor has he ever been presented that way, though a lot of people continue to make that assumption, despite strips like today's.

I got the same impression from these last strips. I used to think of him as some sort of jerk, but it's obvious he is loyal (he doesn't want to abandon Tarfu) and his bad decisions were driven by love (Jillian) or because he knew his adversary too well (Stanley). He is a natural leader and heading the alliance is not an accident.

There is something in the post I disagree strongly with, though

(Wanda drives me up the wall, for example)

Wanda is the bestest.

[Lombard]

Ansom is a complex character, he has his flaws and his things that make us dislike him, but he has his good points too. I bet he gets captured, then we can get to know him better, and also that way he could be defeated but not be out of the story, and could still be trotted out later depending on the twists and turns of the plot. If the capture involves some sort of "almost made it but didn't quite" Evil Knievel type thing, so much the better.

[berrew]

My problem with the story is the coalition itself. Although I'm fine with coalition being personalized by 3 main characters, I'm not fine with the coalition not seeming to have sufficient fire power to make it a real fight. This threatens suspension of disbelief for me.

What Parson did is to severely limit the Alliance's options in this one, particular, narrow set of circumstances. A force is no good if it cannot be brought to bear.

First, Parson clearly took advantage of a tactical choice on the part of the Alliance. We know that the Alliance's air power is twice that of Stanley's vaunted dwagons - thus, it seems evident that due to Lord Stanley's general incompetence, Ansom has been following the usually foolish strategy of "moderately strong everywhere". That strategy rarely works against a competent opponent (unless there's some tricksy strategic reasoning involved), and it certainly is hurting the Alliance now.

Second, Parson has been able to take advantage of his short window of opportunity to outstanding effect - namely by forcing a major shift in immediate Alliance strategy (assuming he is able to deal effectively with the remaining siege weapons).

Third, showing the fractious nature of the Alliance probably forces the Alliance to make a tunnel assault their permanent strategic goal - without that friction, there isn't some limiting timetable that a cautious gamer would use to make a hammer big enough to blow away anything that Parson could do (see the Xykon quote mentioned several times above).

[ag30476]

What Parson did is to severely limit the Alliance's options in this one, particular, narrow set of circumstances. A force is no good if it cannot be brought to bear.

First, Parson clearly took advantage of a tactical choice on the part of the Alliance. We know that the Alliance's air power is twice that of Stanley's vaunted dwagons - thus, it seems evident that due to Lord Stanley's general incompetence, Ansom has been following the usually foolish strategy of "moderately strong everywhere". That strategy rarely works against a competent opponent (unless there's some tricksy strategic reasoning involved), and it certainly is hurting the Alliance now.

Second, Parson has been able to take advantage of his short window of opportunity to outstanding effect - namely by forcing a major shift in immediate Alliance strategy (assuming he is able to deal effectively with the remaining siege weapons).

Third, showing the fractious nature of the Alliance probably forces the Alliance to make a tunnel assault their permanent strategic goal - without that friction, there isn't some limiting timetable that a cautious gamer would use to make a hammer big enough to blow away anything that Parson could do (see the Xykon quote mentioned several times above).

Yeah but what's all this got to do with making a good comic?

[gatitcz]

We learn some more game mechanics in this comic.

Units in Erfworld can retreat to the *opposite* side from which they engaged the enemy as long as they have enough move for it (though obviously that's risky as they'll have to pass near the enemy stacks and get damage from them).

What do you mean by this? Move refers to movement between hexes. Hence why garrison units don't need move.

It should be fun to see The Hunt. Dwagon vs. gwiffon and archon in a fight to the finish.

[Midgititp]

What makes Erfworld a good strip is as someone previously pointed out the more or less human qualities of the characters. The problem is that this also makes them extremely predictable.

Ansom is arrogant and reckless, but he's confident and adept at handling a coalition. His actions thus far though have been completely predictable to anyone paying attention.

Why didn't Ansom stay with the column instead of needlessly exposing himself to danger. Another coalition leader (Tarfu or Vinnie) could have led the attack successfully. The Arkenpliers and Ansom could help significantly but it exposed him to great danger. And why? To satisfy his arrogant need to personally avenge the attack and prove that he is superior to Stanley.

Retreat? That would be admitting defeat, which his arrogance refuses to accept. Allow Jillian to ride to his rescue? Unthinkable, again its admitting that he's been beaten. And he's supposed to ride to her rescue, not the other way around!

The other characters, Stanley, Jillian, etc.. all have their own strengths and weaknesses as well. And yet all of them are equally predictable in their decisions. Stanley refusing to ally with Charlie (oh my, who couldn't see that coming?), Wanda using her sexuality to distract Stanley, etc..

The strip is extremely good in my opinion. The drawing is excellent, the characters are engaging and provoke strong emotional responses from readers (hate Ansom, love Ansom, as long as you care about him) And I enjoy the storyline; its creative, humorous ... but the characters are predictable.

[ShiningTed]

The "little battle" itself is (was) intended only as a delaying tactic. Even if he won the initial objective of destroying the siege, it was only to force the "big battle" into the tunnels.

I'm not sure about this. For memory Parson was using the phrase 'little battle' long before he devised anything to do with the current dwagon-attack. I think 'little battle' means breaking the siege, and 'big battle' means the war in general. He mentioned Wanda's control of Jillian as being something to do with the big battle - splitting up the coalition, or some major strategic thing, seems more likely to be meant than a minor action in the tunnnels (where the Gwiffons will probably play no part).

I think 'The Hunt' entails Jillian finding the wounded dragons, then Ansom and Vinny joining her in attacking those dragons - I don't think she's strong enough (even with the Archons) to kill all the wounded dragons.

Note that there are all 6 Gwiffons shown in the 'Stand' option, but only 5 in the Hunt: its a single stack that is coming, so a single stack that will fight. And yes, i think the hunt is an attack on the wounded dwagons, not a diversionary attack on Gobwin Knob. Thats not a hunt, its a flying column.

[berrew]

Yeah but what's all this got to do with making a good comic?

You said that your suspension of disbelief was stretched. Unless you mean something different than the standard definition, that means that you found that the setup was implausible, or it had internal consistency issues. Thus, what makes this "got to do with making a good comic" is that maintaining internal consistency keeps the readers immersed in the world.

As to whether "any competent warlord" could do what Parson did, I would have to suspect the answer is, no. He arrived with an amazing amount of preparation, and is portrayed as being unusually perceptive and able to deal with a difficult boss and the pressures from many real threats to his life, including from the whims of that leader. He has already wargamed out this scenario for months, (at least, that is heavily implied in the plot), undoubtedly varying a number of elements. Still, the weakest point about any story like this is that it's detailed enough that a large number of intelligent readers have a LOT of time to dissect every element of the story and judge it against their particular tactical abilities, some of which are probably pretty formidable (not me - I have always been a mediocre gamer). Your belief needs to remain suspended, dangling over the plot, for a looong time here.

What makes it worse is that, like people endlessly rehashing US Civil War/WW I/ WW II, etc. battles, we have a TON more time to make decisions than the characters in the story. We waited longer between the release of page 61-62 than Parson Gotti has had since he arrived in Erfworld.

[starlord]

I thought Ansom was going to have to give Jillian the pliers, but it looks like he will probably have enough move to take the battle to the warlords himself.

That might be bad for Stanley as well.

She is a royal. I wonder what the odds are that she is tuned to one of the Arkentools? I wonder what the odds are that she is the heir to the regicide that Stanley committed?

Does the binding on Parson tie him to Stanley or whomever is ruler of GK?

[ChowGuy]

Yeah but what's all this got to do with making a good comic?

It has everything to do with making a good comic. Or at least a good story. Otherwise it's just another Peter Jackson hack job - all battle scenes and special effects, but the characters get lost. And it's the charatcters that a story should be about.

What makes Erfworld a good strip is as someone previously pointed out the more or less human qualities of the characters.

Yeah. What he said.

What will (hopefully) continue to make it a good story is taking it out of the "Battle - Battle - Battle - Game Over" mold.

[Scientivore]

Brain bleach and goggles should be standard forum equipment. The goggles, of course, do nothing, but the bleach supposedly helps in the removal of disturbing mental images.

I can't help with the goggles (not that it matters) but you can have some of my brain bleach. It's standard issue at The Devil's Panties' forum. I think that the image of Ansom with gynecomastia in a vise is sufficient cause for getting it out and passing it around.

[tomaO2]

I don't like people thinking it would be a good idea for Ansom to get a bunch of kills here. He outnumbers Stanly by 25 to 1. All he needs is 6 to 1 to have enough to win this war. With our WITHOUT siege (I didn't notice siege being mentioned in Ansom's battle plan when he first discussed it with the warlords after all). Siege is useful but not vital.

If all the siege AND Ansom AND Vinnie AND Jillian's entire little rescue group got killed, they would still have enough to win. Barring any new tricks from Parson.

There also simply isn't time to keep whittling away at Ansom's group. His army is only 2 turns(ish) away and once all the fliers get back on his next term it will be too strong to ambush again unless it gets divided up for some reason. This will not happen as Ansom should smarten up enough to not do something of this nature again. After this, any new ideas Parson gets will likely have to wait until Ansom's army is at GK's gate and that is when everything is do or die.

I think Parson planned for "the hunt" option. Once again, Ansom is determined that Stanly is less capable then himself and that the trap is beatable. This belief is why he got suckered into the center hex in the first place, after all. If he goes with either of Vinnie's options then he has to admit that Stanly outsmarted him and this is the one thing he is still unable to do, and Parson KNOWS this. So, instead, he's going to take a gambit by sending in Jillian to find and kill the "A" dwagons.

I am unsure why this is a bad move as of yet (assuming the A dwagons can be found) but this sounds like it falls into Parson's plan so far. It has to. If the A dwagons and/or warlords are killed then Ansom has probably gotten a return that is good enough that even all the siege losses he took will not hurt him as bad as losing the X number of dwagons/warlords will hurt Stanly.

Stanly can't afford to lose ANYTHING even REMOTELY close to even or GK is toast and the story, as we know it ends. The most likely course for Erfworld is that Ansom has to lose here and Parson will begin the long road to getting back the 12 cities Stanly lost and then beginning and going around the world to gain the remaining 2 Arkentools (tools that will probably be in different hemipheres).

[Woolysock]

You took the words right from my mouth. Quite a few games allow you to retreat to any free hex. Usually you can't retreat to the hex the opposing units came from, but that wouldn't apply to stationary units. "No game would ever..." There are an awful lot of games out there...

Self-important pontification that opens by criticizing beloved experts (the authors, Vinnie Doombats) invites skeptism. When you compound that by being wrong, derision.



Hammer of the Scotts, and most games in the Columbia 'blocks' vien (which are quite popular). Any number of others (quite few AH bookshelves). Hammer of the Scotts is notable because you aren't obligated to fight back, a unit can retreat as soon as its turn to fight comes up (Makes Light Cavalry a real annoyance, If Erfworld worked like that Archer units could retreat before they got shot at, provided they had a place to go). Assume I just mocked you for a few paragraphs of text, paying particular attention to you being an appaerent neophyte wargamer trying to pass himself off as experienced enough to use 'no game would ever' in a statement.



Look, there is a vast number of games with the mechanic that you can show up to a combat, fight one round (sometimes you can fight back, in others you can't if you intend to retreat), and then retreat at the end of the round any adjacent non-enemy-occupied hex or region. Again with the mocking.




You're assuming the Gumps don't get to fight at all just because the Dwagons have the option of selecting their targets. Try to think through what you just said; if what you think about the how the rules work is true then the Dwagons wouldn't have gotten hitsied by archers on their attack runs. Insert more mocking.



The only thing Ansom and Vinny have confirmed is that they've got the move for a 2-hex dash.

You've managed to miss the fundamental point; croaking 19 Dwagons is nice, croaking 3 warlords is vital. What that means is that Jillian is under no obligation to actually win. As soon as she gets a mission-kill, she can leave. Parson has showed them the way.

[DDL]

Having said that, depending on the game system, it can be an incredibly broken mechanic.

"Oh teh noes! An impenetrable wall of enemiess!!oneone..whatever shall I do?"

*attacks, retreats to other side of 'wall', continues moving on*

Presumably there would be some reason for that not to have been a valid tactic for Ansom initially (perhaps you can't retreat into an enemy occupied hex? -actually not a problem as it turns out, but HE didn't know that :)).


Also, I just love this:

I am dissatisfied with this strip, because I don't want to see Ansom pull his boobs out of the vise. I want to see him get beaten. Ansom irritates me, and the sooner he's out of the picture, the better.

This strip was definitely not worth all the delays.

I mean..yeah! Yeah, you idiots: Why did you make us wait all that time for our free, entertaining, lovingly illustrated, free webcomic? Also, did I mention free?

*sigh* Some people, eh?