Ooops.

[Stryyke]

I posted this question in the wrong forum, earlier. My character in one of my games accidentally stumbled upon an evil alter and ended up worshipping an evil deity. The deity took that character to an alternate dimension. Now I need to build a new character.

The group composition is an unoptimized druid, a pacifist cleric, and a barb. I'm thinking we want another melee option, because the barb player gets kind of upset when enemies gang up on her. I was thinking of doing a hardcore tank, allowing the new people in the group to do all the damage. What is a good setup for that?

3.5 All 1st party sources, and non-broken 3rd party sources.

[ATHATH]

How about a Malconvoker? With your DM's-permission (and maybe the Fiendish Summoning Specialist feat), you might even be able to use your old character as a summon once you reach a high enough level.

By "unoptimized" Druid, what do you mean? Has he/she/it/apache attack helicopter taken the Natural Spell feat? What does the Druid prepare in his spell slots? Does he focus on Wildshaping, his Animal Companion, his spells, or some combination of the above?

Did the Barbarian take the ACF that gives him Pounce?

Normally, I'd recommend Crusader for a tank-build, but ToB classes will overshadow an unoptimized Barbarian. Knight is quite bad, but it might work for your group's power level...

[ATHATH]

Maybe point the Cleric towards the Create Lantern Archon spell; Archons have a nifty "target me or take penalties" aura, and Clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells:

"While wizards, druids, rangers, and paladins can all prepare sanctified spells, clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells."

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ex/20031004c

[Stryyke]

The other 3 players in the party are brand new. They haven't even been playing 6 months yet. So they pretty much just take whatever suits their fancy. The druid has a black bear, and is focusing on magic. She did take natural spell, but we are lvl 4 right now. As for spell selection, she tends to use battlefield control a lot. Even if she has offensive spells, she forgets about them. LOL.

The barb is just a straight barb with nothing not-core. So right now I kind of feel like I need to be the thief/tank/offensive mage. But the other players do not like taking hits, so I think someone to absorb attacks would be first and foremost.

[Particle_Man]

I think Crusader is the way to go, but focus *heavily* (technically you could focus exclusively - with an unoptimized party that might be the way to go) on the White Raven Maneuvers. Your Barbarian buddy will not mind at all when you keep saying "Here you go, get +4 on your next attack!" or "Here you go, get a free attack right now!"

[Stryyke]

What book is crusader in?

[flappeercraft]

What book is crusader in?

Tome of Battle

[Mordaedil]

I'd consider a Psychic Warrior, fluffed as a bit of Jedi Knight. Pick powers that strengthen your defensive measures, but don't be afraid to pick powers that are straight up fluff either. You get a total of 20 powers over your levels, which is double that of the wilder. You probably only need 14 wisdom because the fifth and sixth level powers are kind of lackluster picks, and it's actually better to have a low of low-level options in psionics and augment them as you desire.

Chose to two-hand bastard swords early on and as you get levels spend a feat to grab exotic weapon proficiency so you can use it one-handed. Use a shield if you need more AC, though between Force Screen and Inertial Armor and whatever you are wearing (if they stack?) you should be pretty tanky.

Ah well, this is just an idea I had recently, whether you want to use it is up to you. I don't optimise very heavily.

[Rerednaw]

For a melee very hard to go wrong with Tome of Battle. Swordsage is the closest rogue analogue but they are not rogues per se (no perception skills, no trap finding). Warblade just pretty much rains melee death. Crusader is more of divine tank that isn't a Paladin.

Or if you really want to be different Psychic Warrior is very fluffy. Especially the claw kind. Weapons? Grow em. Armor? Summon it. Can be extremely self-reliant. And has access to juicy touch AC combat tricks.

None of these classes rate higher than Tier 3 so they will fit in pretty well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How about a Dragonfire Adept? Lowish damage but good control (if you take Entangling Exhalation)-- and since you can pump Con and nothing else, tough as all get out.

[Psyren]

She did take natural spell, but we are lvl 4 right now.

Wait, how?

As for spell selection, she tends to use battlefield control a lot. Even if she has offensive spells, she forgets about them. LOL.

Well really, battlefield control IS offensive. Especially if you have a melee bruiser (the barb and the bear) to then walk up and splatter whatever got controlled.

Anyway, it looks to me like you're missing both an arcanist and a skillmonkey. I'd personally lean towards an Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer sort of build.

[Stryyke]

Wait, how?

Good point. I have no clue. I guess the DM missed the pre-req.

As for the rest, Psyren, if this was a highly optimized game; I would agree. But after playing in the group for a while, the group dynamic seems like they would most benefit from a tank. I was a Nomad Psion, which was really fun, and I was saving them in every fight. I think it would be more fun for them if there was a hardcore tank, so they aren't always getting beat down.

How about a Dragonfire Adept? Lowish damage but good control (if you take Entangling Exhalation)-- and since you can pump Con and nothing else, tough as all get out.

What book is dragonfire adept in?

[Particle_Man]

What book is dragonfire adept in?

Dragon Magic.

[Flickerdart]

Bard seems like a good choice. Optimize Inspire Courage. +1 base, +1 from Song of the Heart, +1 from Badge of Courage, +1 from inspirational boost. A variable +2 to +4 to hit and damage for the party can really help them kick butt. If you want to pull out all the stops, Dragonfire Inspiration and Words of Creation are options to consider.

[Psyren]

As for the rest, Psyren, if this was a highly optimized game; I would agree. But after playing in the group for a while, the group dynamic seems like they would most benefit from a tank. I was a Nomad Psion, which was really fun, and I was saving them in every fight. I think it would be more fun for them if there was a hardcore tank, so they aren't always getting beat down.

In that case I'd lean towards the summoning focused build like a conjurer/malconvoker somebody suggested above. That way you can be the loremonkey while also throwing backup bodies into melee to help your tanks. Alternatively, just some form of intelligence-based melee like a Warblade.

[Stryyke]

In that case I'd lean towards the summoning focused build like a conjurer/malconvoker somebody suggested above. That way you can be the loremonkey while also throwing backup bodies into melee to help your tanks. Alternatively, just some form of intelligence-based melee like a Warblade.

I've actually considered that, and I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept. I hesitate only because we are level 4 right now. I've never had much success with that type of build; and they are even harder at low levels. Malconvoker is a prestige class, so that won't be available till at least lvl 5, maybe higher. Conjurer is arcane, if I'm not mistaken, and the low level summons seem underwhelming to me. If you have advice on what low level summons would be useful for tanking, I would certainly consider that as an option.

[Psyren]

Actually I'd say Level 4 is the perfect time to start summoning - it means your summons will last most of the combat (assuming they don't die) instead of poofing shortly after they appear.

And they don't have to be great - after all, you ultimately want the people you're playing with to be the stars of the show. Your summons are there to divide up the enemy so they can't gang up on your barbarian friend or the druid's pet. They are disposable, so every time they eat an enemy attack - even if they die instantly - you win. If they take more than one attack to die, you win even more. And if they flank with your Barb so he can Power Attack something in half with one hit and s/he starts cheering, you win most of all.

As for what to summon, you can't throw a rock on the internet without hitting a wizard or summoning handbook. Try this one for instance.

[Stryyke]

I think that, starting with summon monster 2, the arcane summoner can two 1st lvl summons, or a 2nd level. I take it from your post that you are a proponent of more summons = better tanking, rather than just one more powerful summon?

The reason I like that idea is that I could then take things like Knock, so we don't have to worry about not having thievery. But it just seems so . . . mundane. I like trying new things. Now I've never done the malconvoker, so that would be new. I'm so torn. :( The malconvoker route seems like it may be the more responsible decision for the group; but I really want to do a melee warrior. I find myself enjoying melee characters more.

[Psyren]

My second suggestion WAS Warblade

Or if ToB isn't allowed, try Duskblade.

[Stryyke]

My second suggestion WAS Warblade

Or if ToB isn't allowed, try Duskblade.

I know. I think I'll end up going with something from the Tome of Battle. I sent it to the DM for approval this morning. Why warblade over crusader, though?

[Psyren]

I know. I think I'll end up going with something from the Tome of Battle. I sent it to the DM for approval this morning. Why warblade over crusader, though?

You guys are missing an Intelligence-based class, which tend to solve a lot of narrative problems. With two divine casters you shouldn't need much more healing.

[Stryyke]

You guys are missing an Intelligence-based class, which tend to solve a lot of narrative problems. With two divine casters you shouldn't need much more healing.

Fair enough.

Edit:
I really like the look of Stone Dragon, but I'm a bit concerned about it's stipulation. When it says you must be contacting the ground, does that mean natural earth? Can I not use maneuvers when in a wooden house, for instance?

[Particle_Man]

You could also do a Bard 1/Crusader 3 or Bard 1/Warblade 3. The Song of the White Raven feat lets Crusader and Warblade levels stack with bard for inspire courage and also lets such be done as a swift action.

As a 3rd level Warblade while you would have other maneuvers known you could make sure that all of your readied maneuvers were from the White Raven discipline, obviating worries about stealing the spotlight too much from the barbarian, as well as worries about when Stone Dragon maneuvers can be used (that doesn't quite work with Crusader at low levels - it will take a while longer (bard 1/crusader 5) before you can pull off "White Raven Only" in your readied box as a Crusader). Your stance (or if Crusader/Bard both of your stances) could also be White Raven, which would work with the feat above.

If this is a long term campaign (At least level 11), you might play an elf (or half-elf if DM allows this to meet the prestige class prerequisite) and work towards Eternal Blade as a prestige class. Again, while it requires a few maneuvers known that are not White Raven, all of your readied maneuvers and stances could be White Raven.

[Remuko]

Fair enough.

Edit:
I really like the look of Stone Dragon, but I'm a bit concerned about it's stipulation. When it says you must be contacting the ground, does that mean natural earth? Can I not use maneuvers when in a wooden house, for instance?

I may be wrong but I took it to mean as long as your not in the air or in the water you are "on the ground".

[Dagroth]

I may be wrong but I took it to mean as long as your not in the air or in the water you are "on the ground".

Agreed. Stone Dragon maneuvers aren't (su), so I always took it to mean it was all about stability (which many stances & maneuvers reflect). Standing on a log in a river or a rope bridge over a river? Can't use Stone Dragon. Standing in the hallway on the 2nd floor of the inn? Sure.

[EndocrineBandit]

Spellthief might be a fun option for a rogue/skillmonkey/arcanist. Go into spellwarp sniper and pew pew pew with rayspells and no saves.