Erfworld 70, page 64

[ag30476]

Remember, Ansom's side is limited by the fog of war. If she deliberately misses a spot (and separates from the Archons temporarily while doing so to cover it up more territory), how is Ansom going to know?

The real problem, of course, is that Jillian has no knowledge of where the wounded dwagons actually are, either to find them or to avoid them.

Only flying units can attack the dwagons on the lake and only Jillian and her flyers can reach the lake in this turn. It would be logical to keep the wounded dwagons on the lake. Similarly, it is only logical for Jillian to search as much of the lake as possible once the lake is found.

There are thorough searches that search as much of the lake as possible by heading back to the lake when the perimeter of the lake is found. These do not guarantee dwagons will be found. That would depend on the size/shape of the lake, the starting point, the move left and so forth.

There are non-thorough searches that do not search as much of the lake as is possible by moving away from the lake before the units are out of move.

The image below shows some 4 hex searches starting from an empty hex on the lake. The lake is assumed to be 3 hexes big. (That is just an assumption it could be bigger going to the left and away from the dwagon fort. The image also assumes a starting point and a previous direction. Again, these are just guesses because we don't have the actual map. The assumptions in the image are made to illustrate the point of a prior speculation. I'm not making a claim that anything is proved. The real game/story/battle map could be different. Void where prohibited. Not recommend for pregnant women...)



In case the image doesn't display

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Assume this is the hex grid near the action. J is Jillain over
an empty lake hex. L is an empty lake hex. W is empty woods. D is dwagons.
A is Ansom:           
               W  
             J   W   D
               D W W   D
             L w   D A D
                     D 

Jillain can just veer away from the dwagons and (illogically) search away from
the lake and end up at Ansom's hex. The numbers are her subsequent moves:
               1  
             J   2   D
               D W 3   D
             L w   D 4 D
                     D 

Or she could logically) turn back towards the lake whenever the perimeter 
was found:
               1  
             J   2   D
               4 3 W   D
             L w   D A D
                     D 

               W  
             J   W   D
               3 W W   D
             1 2   D A D
                     D 

The top search is not so much a search as a run to Ansom. It leaves hexes below the flight path unsearched.

The bottom searches find the dwagons.

Seperating at this point (on the lake, near the dwagon fort and low on move) is questionable in itself because it would be the second force seperation in the search and it comes at a point in the search when you know the wounded dwagons are nearby.

If the seperation was done, in order to cover up a bad search, Jillian would have send the Archons on either (1) a bad search away from the lake which is questionable or (2) send the Archons on a thorough search path which is guaranteed not to find the dwagons which is doubtful.

I think it's just easier for Jillian to

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declare the search over because the need to end the turn with Ansom and the forest units is more important.

[Wender]

I'd guess that there are two prong's to Jillian's programming, which derive their strength from her own attachment to them. The first is her affection for Ansom; the second is her identity as a (reckless, independent) barbarian. Based on that, and based on the meta-information that an encounter with the dragons will abruptly bring about the endgame one way or another, I'm thinking that Jillian is scotching the orders she was given—again—and barreling straight for Ansom. Based again on the hunch that an encounter with the dwagons would change the battlefield radically no matter what the outcome was, I'm guessing that she'll happen to take the path to Ansom that misses the dwagons.

This will mean that Ansom loses his siege, but considering what the odds are Parson will have to accomplish that, and a whole lot of other damage, just to get an even match when the alliance reaches Gobwin Knob. It will also land Jillian in extremely hot water, leading to the possibility that she goes rogue or even joins the other side, or splinters the alliance when the warlords tell Ansom that it's her or them and they side with her.

The great thing is that there's so much tension that the story could go in so many directions that I can very easily imagine myself being totally wrong. It's great. :)

[fruityjanitor]

Great comic. I really liked how Parson described Wanda. lol

[Scientivore]

It has been implied that she is/has in fact disobeyed orders. If she is currently doing so (and we've not seen her do so before)

Ansom told her to avoid any engagements if she could. She immediately disobeyed.

Again, not a "given" that Jillian is "searching" for the A-Dwags at all. All we know is that she's passing over the lake, and has entered a hex one away from them. We do not know from the strip what her course or intended purpose is. Any assumption otherwise is just that - an assumption, and not a "given."

It's not been established beyond a shadow of a doubt but I'd say that the preponderance of the evidence is in favor of it. That's not good enough for science or criminal justice but it's good enough for most civil courts.

I make a point of holding myself to a pretty high standard of evidence (even though this is just a webcomic) in order to keep my own head straight and not get caught up in fruitless debates over plain ol' opinions. From my perspective, you seem to be taking that principle farther than necessary here.

I submit, as I have all along, that the "preceptions" and "emotions" that underpin the spell have nothing to do with Jillian's relationship to Wanda, but to Ansom himself. The "Suggestion" being that, if she perceives Ansom as being in imminent danger, she should abandon any other mission and head directly toward him. Do not pass GO, Do not collect 200 Schmuckers. Which she now is. On a course which rather inconveniently is taking her straight over the lake where the Dwags are.

Fair enough. I think that Jillian's ambivalence (or even avoidance) with regard to Prince Ansom is inconsistent with that. I suspect that Wanda has enchanted Jillian (literally and figuratively) and that she's obscured the precise nature of her hold over Jillian for reasons both practical and personal.

[Lombard]

I hope the comic doesn't delve into homosexuality, or if it does, I hope that it's addressed with subtlety, like any human emotion should be. This comic doesn't have any severely adult themes like pclips, and I've been hoping it would stay that way. To be honest, media is saturated with this subject lately. I've noticed that artists and storytellers are handling our culture's changing perspective on homosexuals with all the poise of a enraged preacher.

Is this subtle enough for you? ;)

Anyways the latest strip had its good and its bad points for me. Thank goodness we found out about veiling and it was very interesting to learn more about the suggestion spell. Very nice.

What I wasn't sure about was how all of a sudden the plan is like all Wanda's fault if it doesn't work out? It's news to me that Parson was ever relying on the suggestion magic with Jillian... it seemed more like he was counting on being out of range of most of their units. Or was there something left vague or implied that I missed? Also I don't get why people would say that the underpinning for Jillian would be her feelings for Ansom. From the start of the strip onwards it never seemed like she had any such feelings.

[ag30476]

It has been implied that she is/has in fact disobeyed orders.

Ansom told her to avoid any engagements if she could. She immediately disobeyed.

Come to think of it, she has disagreed with or disobeyed or subverted every single order or suggestion given to her by Ansom or has tried to do so.

[ChowGuy]

Ansom told her to avoid any engagements if she could. She immediately disobeyed.

I should have been more specific. Sizemore in fact says that that is typical of her nature. However, it was my reading that one of the effects of Le Spell was to induce that, to a specific end. If so, then this would be the first such act we've seen since the "session" with Wanda which might be traced or linked to that influence.

Unless of course she's not currently disobeying orders and is simply "searching" for the A-Dwags as ordered which is what everyone assumes, but would certainly constitute a first for her. Just the opposite of what we're told to expect.

I think that Jillian's ambivalence (or even avoidance) with regard to Prince Ansom is inconsistent with that.

Inconsistant? With her denying and not "knowing what she wants"? To quote Petruccio "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

Wanda's little "girl talk" looks to have been cleverly engineered to have her think her way through to "Oh cmon, he's not that bad. Really."

[rosebud]

I wonder if Wanda's petty enough to make Sizemore's life more difficult for questioning her ability.

What's she going to do, make him shovel boop? He already does that.

By my count, either of these hexes is four hexes away from Ansom's current location in the middle of the Dwagon Donut...

Yup. Given how many times Ansom rescued her, I'm rooting for Jillian to rescue him. It makes sense -- she's showing her loyalty, something she's fighting so hard against the spell to do. Since she technically already followed her orders from Ansom ("hunt for the dragons and attack if you find them"), she can then proceed directly to Ansom's position and, coincidentally, happen to miss the wounded stack. By sending Webinar and Dora on a hunt, she technically followed orders. By flying towards him and hitting one lake hex, she technically searched unsearched terrain. Nothing required that she actually follow his orders thoroughly, and it is unlikely that he specifically ordered her not to rescue him.

What I don't understand is why Parson went needlessly out of his way to offend Wanda with his last comment ("you're ... officially betting our lives on it, Wanda"). Parson has more blame in the matter since he was the one to position the dragons. And Wanda won't exactly be kind to that remark, especially after booping Stanley to save Parson's boop. So that seems out of character for him.

Something I'm curious about is what compulsions Wanda is laying on Stanley.

If she does break the spell and croak the dwagons, it'll be good for the storyline.

Ugggh, I'd hate that. Stanley's side is already in desperate straits.

1) It keeps Ansom in the fight. If Parson had nothing but victories, the comic would be fairly boring

Since when does one turn constitute victories, plural? Also, Jillian ending up with Ansom just means they have to go the marbit-power intensive tunnel route for invasion. And even if the allies lose, there's still much, much more to go.

2) It won't actually be Parson's fault.

It is, and Wanda's sharp enough not to take the entire blame. (Refer back to my comment as to why Parson's criticism of Wanda makes no sense.)

Parson screws up and gets disbanded by Tool who promptly sends him to the front.

Uggg. Well, we've been promised excitement, but I'm hoping for at least some straightforward fun to start with. There's enough pieces on the board, so to speak, without having to fork in yet another plot direction. Some stable point for the dynamic among Stanley, Wanda, and Parson would be nice.

Well ultimately it is Parson's responsibility, but Stanley might not see it that way. After all, if the spell had worked the way Wanda claimed, everything would have gone fine.

Wanda WILL make Stanley see it that way if things go wrong. And Wanda is too important to lose.

it is only logical for Jillian to search as much of the lake as possible once the lake is found.

Nice drawings, by the way! Anyhow, "logic" and "Jillian" (the Barbarian) in the same sentence is a contradiction. Logically, she'll do the illogical.

[the_tick_rules]

so that is why jillian has been a bit upity lately.

[SPoD]

What I don't understand is why Parson went needlessly out of his way to offend Wanda with his last comment ("you're ... officially betting our lives on it, Wanda"). Parson has more blame in the matter since he was the one to position the dragons. And Wanda won't exactly be kind to that remark, especially after booping Stanley to save Parson's boop. So that seems out of character for him.

Because it's another example of her arrogance outweighing her pragmatism. And Parson is all about pragmatism when it comes to warfare. If Wanda had informed Parson that the Charm wasn't 100% guaranteed, he may have engineered his tactics slightly differently.

In the end, I think we're looking at the beginning of a true rift between Wanda and Parson, wherein they compete for the Tool's trust. If Wanda's Charm boops up, then Parson will be seen as the more useful minion--and she will be PISSED. But the Tool is nothing if not easily swayed, and it may be that Parson's down-and-dirty exploits produce better results than Wanda's traditional magic.

It would also fit ironically because it was Wanda who suggested the original Warlord spell--she may have accidentally conjured her own replacement!

[Psychosomatic]

6) Therefore Wanda should have caused Jillian to simply search in the wrong places for dwagons. Maybe she still will.

I think this conclusion might prove to be additional depth within the earlier line "That's what you did?". Oooh, the possibilities there...

[Chewy]

can someone explain how the hunt is a viable tactic?

You have 9 units which equals to 9 attacks per turn. Without an AOE or multiple attack system the dragons even though is weak will pwn the living daylights out of them through sheer numbers. This is of course even assuming that attackers get first strike and not defenders.

Theres 19 A dragons I believe whom are also the upper tier dragon stacked with 3 croaked warlords who still retain thier combat abilities. So theres 22 units on the lake. Jillian is equipped with herself 5 gryphons and 3 archons making 9 units. Even if we assume that each unit is capable of killing one dragon that still leaves 13 units. Each dragon is probally able to kill the gryphons in one hit as shown by the red dragon who was able to kill the gryphon AND dismount/capture jillian in one attack on page 12.

[Psychosomatic]

The goal is to kill the warlords, leaving the dwagons unable to properly attack the siege next turn.

[Chewy]

how would a warlord + mount even work then? Thier flying over water meaning a warlord cannot acess this type of terrain. So if thier mount is killed then what? How would thier HP come into play? As far as we know they haven't been harmed.

This still doesen't even seem effective although it is probally Ansoms last gambit. He's pretty much sending them to thier doom. With a large stack i can see the tactical advantages but thier the ones outnumbered here. Regardless of the HP the dragons are a better quality units AND they have numerical supuriority + multiple bonuses thats just...bad for Jillian and co.

[factotum]

What I wasn't sure about was how all of a sudden the plan is like all Wanda's fault if it doesn't work out?

I don't think that's ever implied. Parson is merely saying that if those 19 dwagons (or the 3 warlords with them) get croaked, Stanley is going to be MAD, and will probably get rid of Wanda, Parson AND Sizemore for that matter.

[SteveMB]

I don't think that's ever implied. Parson is merely saying that if those 19 dwagons (or the 3 warlords with them) get croaked, Stanley is going to be MAD, and will probably get rid of Wanda, Parson AND Sizemore for that matter.

I interpreted it as "if she finds the wounded and croaks the warlords*, our last chance to save Gobwin Knob goes down the drain".

*He is presumably assuming that the enemy recognizes the really high-value targets

[SteveMB]

What I wasn't sure about was how all of a sudden the plan is like all Wanda's fault if it doesn't work out? It's news to me that Parson was ever relying on the suggestion magic with Jillian... it seemed more like he was counting on being out of range of most of their units. Or was there something left vague or implied that I missed?

He was relying on them being out of range of all but the fastest air units. Perhaps he simply couldn't place them out of range of all the gwiffons while still having them close enough to make enough attacks on the column to chew up the siege before the air cover returned.

As for the implication that he is, to some extent, relying on Wanda's influence over Jillian, see Klog 5: "She better be a good mole so we can win the big battle, then."

Also I don't get why people would say that the underpinning for Jillian would be her feelings for Ansom. From the start of the strip onwards it never seemed like she had any such feelings.

The ending of page 8 indicates that she isn't sure of her own feelings, but she is definitely feeling something.

[DeathQuaker]

Because it's another example of her arrogance outweighing her pragmatism. And Parson is all about pragmatism when it comes to warfare. If Wanda had informed Parson that the Charm wasn't 100% guaranteed, he may have engineered his tactics slightly differently.

She did tell him that the spell's effects were subtle and did not directly control the target. She made it pretty clear it was not a "brute control" kind of spell.

At the beginning of the current strip, Parson admits as much that he's not sure he should have relied on the charm as much... because he was already made aware that it was a subtle effect, not a blatant one.

In the end, I think we're looking at the beginning of a true rift between Wanda and Parson, wherein they compete for the Tool's trust. If Wanda's Charm boops up, then Parson will be seen as the more useful minion--and she will be PISSED. But the Tool is nothing if not easily swayed, and it may be that Parson's down-and-dirty exploits produce better results than Wanda's traditional magic.

I sincerely doubt it would be simple as that. Wanda just did a major distraction for Parson to keep Stanley in a good mood, for the sole purpose of helping Parson, and Parson knows that. He strikes me as the kind of person who appreciates favors done for him. Moreover, Wanda has already provided Parson very good advice about dealing with Stanley--which he has already used successfully--and losing her means he loses a valuable source of information. Parson is actually a lot MORE in danger if Wanda goes, and I'm sure he knows it.

At the same time, the Tool still trusts Wanda ("Wanda, you're my favorite") and heck, he's just been seduced by her, likely leaving him with happy thoughts of her in his mind. Even if he's pissed off if Wanda's spell doesn't go as expected, I doubt he's going to turn on her completely. Stanley is... well, a "tool," but he understands and appreciates Wanda's value. He knows losing his most powerful spellcaster would be dumb... in fact especially if the plan fails, because her magic will be more important than ever, and Wanda rarely fails.

As a matter of fact, I doubt Wanda and Sizemore would argue over the effectiveness of the spell in front of Stanley if Wanda were in any real danger... Sizemore's not a vindictive fellow and he and Wanda appear otherwise to get along well, even if they are very different people. And I somehow imagine Sizemore is the next-powerful spellcaster, but I doubt he wants the power of the position Wanda has.

Now, if the plan fails, there will probably be a rift formed between characters, but I think it will have more subtle trust/lack of trust effects, not lead to an all out vying-for-Stanley's favor. It's just not to either of their advantage.

[factotum]

And I somehow imagine Sizemore is the next-powerful spellcaster, but I doubt he wants the power of the position Wanda has.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sizemore is just as powerful in his own area of expertise (Dirtamancy) as Wanda is in hers. However, as we found out when he first appeared, he is pretty useless in any other area of magic, despite having a great interest in them; conversely, Wanda can turn her hand to pretty much any type of magic, but she generally chooses not to because of her like for Croakamancy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Wanda has a few tricks up her sleeve--she might know enough Lookamancy to be able to veil herself if necessary, for example.

[sihnfahl]

how would a warlord + mount even work then? Thier flying over water meaning a warlord cannot acess this type of terrain.

Normally, no. But it's apparent to me that as long as a warlord has access to a mount of some sort, they can move as long as the mount has move, and are limited to the terrain the mount can maneuver through.

So if thier mount is killed then what? How would thier HP come into play? As far as we know they haven't been harmed.

If their mount is killed, I'd assume that they'd be force to go on foot. If there aren't any other mounts that can immediately pick them up, and they're not in terrain that is permissible to land units, they're lost.
Oh, and as Lord Manpower The Temporary found out, warlords have health separate from their mount (his spidew was still alive when he took a bolt through the eye socket).

This still doesen't even seem effective although it is probally Ansoms last gambit. He's pretty much sending them to thier doom. With a large stack i can see the tactical advantages but thier the ones outnumbered here. Regardless of the HP the dragons are a better quality units AND they have numerical supuriority + multiple bonuses thats just...bad for Jillian and co.

Yes, but, as Ansom has observed, he has little choice in the matter. Without the siege units, he has little hope of cracking the defenses of Gobwin Knob. His plans for the tunnels was merely a feint; he had no serious plan to go through them. They're heavily defended, full of traps, and can be sealed off.
And, as you noted, even their flyers cannot equal the dwagons Stanley has at his command. At their home base, with archer and spellcaster support? Forget it... that IS suicide.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

my guess is that Wanda is confident because she 'knows' the exact nature of the spell she cast on Jillian while the others are only guessing what she did. The only person to really 'know' she wiped his memory. He was surprised at what he heard and wanted to commend her for being so 'evil'...but then she wiped his memory so that noone other than her would know exactly what was up. Wanda has also not been too forthcomming with exact details on what she did and why she is so confident.

Her blurb about not understanding the underpinnings of the spell seem to validate the theory. If they knew exactly what she did...they would be as confident...but she doesn't want them to know, which means that she is protecting someone...since that goon said she was 'evil', and she has always been very manipulative, I can only assume that she is protecting herself and her own power.

Stanley won't understand...Sizemore will just get berated for questioning her and sulk...but Parson will likely hear Sizemore wondering...then he'll confront Wanda privately and see if he can get her to spill the goods. I bet he'll understand that if the spell did control her, then there may be something else going on...if anything else, he may ask her for the same reason I would. If I am going to be relying on something...I would want to know without reservation the full capabilities of al my resources. He'll probbaly phrase his request to her in those terms.

[SteveMB]

my guess is that Wanda is confident because she 'knows' the exact nature of the spell she cast on Jillian while the others are only guessing what she did. The only person to really 'know' she wiped his memory. He was surprised at what he heard and wanted to commend her for being so 'evil'...but then she wiped his memory so that noone other than her would know exactly what was up.

Er, you have that part backwards. Mung wished he could be half as evil as Wanda after she wiped his memory of everything but "the screams for mercy". Ergo, Mung was simply remarking favorably on Wanda's ruthlessness as a torturer.

That said, he clearly was intrigued by what he'd heard before having his memory of it erased....

Stanley won't understand...Sizemore will just get berated for questioning her and sulk...but Parson will likely hear Sizemore wondering...then he'll confront Wanda privately and see if he can get her to spill the goods. I bet he'll understand that if the spell did control her, then there may be something else going on...if anything else, he may ask her for the same reason I would. If I am going to be relying on something...I would want to know without reservation the full capabilities of al my resources. He'll probbaly phrase his request to her in those terms.

Well, we know that he has unsuccessfully tried to get straight answers out of her at least once ("Wanda ducked question about her origin."). Admittedly, he didn't have the "I need to know this if I'm going to salvage this situation" card to play in that case.

[anamiac]

Jillian's been disobeying Ansom's orders because Ansom's orders have been trying to protect her, keep her from the action. Now that she finally has the option of seeing some real combat, I don't think she'll just let it go... she's going to attack those Dwagons. We've already seen that she's willing to attack dwagons when they outnumber her...

Jillian hasn't been ignoring Ansom out of spite, but because what she wants and what Ansom wanted were different. Now that they both want the same thing she'll obey orders.

[sihnfahl]

Jillian's been disobeying Ansom's orders because Ansom's orders have been trying to protect her, keep her from the action.

Keep her from the action? Heck no. Look at his plan for her during the actual fight at GK; her orders would have been to take on the dwagons with all the air force the Alliance had. "The toughest job..."
His orders have been crafted to try to keep her from taking any unnecessary risks and make sure that she actually was present at the final fight. Without her, the dwagons... would still do quite a bit of havoc on his forces.

Now that she finally has the option of seeing some real combat, I don't think she'll just let it go... she's going to attack those Dwagons. We've already seen that she's willing to attack dwagons when they outnumber her...

If she doesn't just decide to go to Ansom's rescue. "I'm low on move, I haven't found the dwagons, someone I like a WHOLE lot is a sitting duck, surrounded by dwagons, and I'm the only one who can reach him... I have to save him!"

Jillian hasn't been ignoring Ansom out of spite, but because what she wants and what Ansom wanted were different. Now that they both want the same thing she'll obey orders.

Jillian, right now, probably has two wants.
Find and croak the dwagons (if she can find them).
Protect Ansom from getting croaked by the dwagons currently surrounding him.

[ag30476]

Nice drawings, by the way!

Thanks

Anyhow, "logic" and "Jillian" (the Barbarian) in the same sentence is a contradiction. Logically, she'll do the illogical.

Or she'll do the only logical thing she can do given her magical compulsion.

[ag30476]

Jillian's been disobeying Ansom's orders because Ansom's orders have been trying to protect her, keep her from the action...Jillian hasn't been ignoring Ansom out of spite...

Like when he kept her from savaging a loaf of bread
Or told her to take a hat and call when she got there..."Aww dad! Do I have to?"

[One Skunk Todd]

Hehe, "Ridonkulous", somebody's been reading cuteoverload.

www.cuteoverload.com

Also, Wanda's been in that same outfit for a while now and I finally recognized where it came from(possibly). In Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery, Austin breaks into the apartment of Alotta Fagina to learn about Dr. Evil's plans and Alotta catches him there. She goes to change into another outfit and comes out wearing a short white robe with a print on it (maybe cherry blossoms). The only difference between that and Wanda's is that Wanda's has a red belt and Alotta's I think had a white belt.

[SteveMB]

Keep her from the action? Heck no. Look at his plan for her during the actual fight at GK; her orders would have been to take on the dwagons with all the air force the Alliance had. "The toughest job..."
His orders have been crafted to try to keep her from taking any unnecessary risks and make sure that she actually was present at the final fight. Without her, the dwagons... would still do quite a bit of havoc on his forces.

Yes, but in the short term that means passing up opportunities to get into fights. Jillian seems too impulsive and hot-headed to have much patience for that. (Admittedly, we don't know to what extent this might have been exacerbated by Wanda's work on her before the story began, but I get the impression that the basic tendency was always there.)

[duus]

Hrmm, drama. I wonder how this is going to work out.

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I bet it's a love spell

i agree with magicwalker's spoiler....

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...unless it's not actually a spell at all, and she's just counting on 'love' itself...

[SMDVogrin]

Also, Wanda's been in that same outfit for a while now and I finally recognized where it came from(possibly). In Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery, Austin breaks into the apartment of Alotta Fagina to learn about Dr. Evil's plans and Alotta catches him there. She goes to change into another outfit and comes out wearing a short white robe with a print on it (maybe cherry blossoms). The only difference between that and Wanda's is that Wanda's has a red belt and Alotta's I think had a white belt.

That, and Wanda's prints are skulls, instead of cherry blossoms.... :)