Wandas' Suggestion Spell [possible spoilers]

[Xerxos]

My money is on "love me". Easy to do for someone as beautiful as Wanda and lingering homosexual tendencies on Jillians side?

Any other suggestions?

[sihnfahl]

My money is on "love me". Easy to do with someone as beautiful as Wanda and a lingering homosexual tendencies? Any other suggestions?

Love me. Protect me. Defend me.

Up until Parson came around, Stanley was losing (heck, he's still in quite a jam). Wanda needed someone who'd give her protection and an out when Stanley croaks.

Someone pliant. Someone suggestible. Someone whose ... personal loyalties can be influenced.

[SteveMB]

Love me. Protect me. Defend me.

Up until Parson came around, Stanley was losing (heck, he's still in quite a jam). Wanda needed someone who'd give her protection and an out when Stanley croaks.

Someone pliant. Someone suggestible. Someone whose ... personal loyalties can be influenced.

Jillian's proposed "very easy way" ("Let's both of us get out of here, and--") implies that she already feels a fairly strong impetus to (at least) "Protect Wanda". This may be the result of groundwork laid during previous captivities, or it may also reflect some relationship that predates the current conflict -- we don't really have any information to go on in that regard.

Edit: If Wanda was indeed thinking in terms of saving her own hide, then the "very easy way" may indeed have been what her plans were leading up to... until Parson gave her the idea that her side might actually be able to win this fight. As far as she knew at the time, he was at least a reasonably close facsimile of the Perfect Warlord for this situation (in terms of the intellectual criteria she was focused on, if not the dashing-and-handsome "garbage" Stanley threw in at the last minute) -- the last thing she found out before the "surprise treat" came up was that he'd just spent months thinking through a scenario like the one they were facing....

[sihnfahl]

Edit: If Wanda was indeed thinking in terms of saving her own hide, then the "very easy way" may indeed have been what her plans were leading up to... until Parson gave her the idea that her side might actually be able to win this fight.

She'd still plan for an out. She wasn't sure, at the time, how effective Parson would be; she had no idea of his actual ability or if it'd make a difference.
She'd still want her 'back door'.

[SteveMB]

She'd still plan for an out. She wasn't sure, at the time, how effective Parson would be; she had no idea of his actual ability or if it'd make a difference.
She'd still want her 'back door'.

While she may have contingency plans for saving her own skin if all else fails, I think she's generally committed to trying to save Gobwin Knob. She does go out of her way to get Stanley to go along with the desperate and expensive plan to summon a Perfect Warlord, after all.

Getting back to the subject of the suggestion spell, I revisit some of the speculations I came up with a few months back ("When Prisoner Says 'The Easy Way'..."). IMO, Jillian's reactions before Wanda cast the spell (proposing to run away together, getting to "Yes, Mistress" rather quickly for a tough barbarian warrior) convinced Wanda that she had gotten close to a critical breakthrough, and Jillian just needed one more good push. Having supplied that push (with both the spell and the interrogation session), Wanda is now quite confident of her hold on Jillian.

Whether or not that confidence is excessive remains to be seen.

[sihnfahl]

While she may have contingency plans for saving her own skin if all else fails, I think she's generally committed to trying to save Gobwin Knob. She does go out of her way to get Stanley to go along with the desperate and expensive plan to summon a Perfect Warlord, after all.

Yeah, getting put under the thumb of a goody-two-shoes like Ansom would sure put a crimp in her... hobbies, don't you think? Also, Stanley's pretty malleable; she gets to be the Power Behind The Throne.

Preferred solution: Gobwin Knob is unbeaten, Stanley stays in power, Wanda gets to indulge her specialty (croakamancy) and her hobbies.

Second best solution: Gobwin Knob's beaten, Jillian protects Wanda from being croaked/captured, Jillian helps Wanda live on to practice her magic (but not her hobbies).

[benthehater]

For purely selfish reasons, because I find Jillian more sympathetic than Wanda, I'd like to see her resist/defy programming/suggestions and lead the Archons and Gwiffons in a dramatic slaughter, intersperced with the horrified faces of the GK crew looking on.

But because I suspect that this story is partially about not getting what you want on a thematic level, I'm afraid that Jillian will fall under the sway of Wanda's suggestion, and that she'll also be exposed under said suggestion with no reasonable excuse. And face some severe consequences, both from potential punishment from her allies, and from her own guilt and confusion.

Steve's thinking back to Jillian's quote ("Let's both of us get out of here, and--") feels right on. Basically, if the relationship between them was a flirtatious one or intimate onepreviously, Jillian's remarks there, perhaps for the first time, were a declaration of emotional attachment. Not to mention that the words themselves from Jillian expressed an intent for the both of them to leave their respective forces, and in the unspoken part could've been "run away together" or "leave all this behind us".

Unfortunately for Jillian, it looks like evidence of a genuine emotional attachment that would be cause for Jillian to abandon her allies, is what Wanda was waiting for. Not for the romance, but for the foundation of the kind of suggestion spell that would significantly alter Jillian's normal behavior. That foundation of an emotional attachment on which the heavy suggestion spell rests hasn't been disclosed to Parson, Sizemore, or Stanley. And Sizemore, with the information he does have about suggestion spells, and without the information on that emotional attachment that Wanda is relying on to make her suggestion spell work, isn't confident in its success.

In that respect, I don't think that the suggestion was "love me". I think that would be unnecessary since Jillian already felt that way.

As for what the suggestion actually is...

Well, the worst that she can do to her own side is start attacking the Archons. Which I think would greatly amuse Wanda. I don't know how plausible that is though, even considering the heavy suggestion. Rather than actually switch sides, I think it's slightly more possible that Jillian might lose her ability to distinguish allies from enemies, and attack the Archons.

Basically, whatever the suggestion is, I think it'll end with the following:

Spoiler

Show

Wanda cackling maniacally, Stanley dancing around praising himself, Parson and Sizemore confused at how it worked, pleased it did, and more than a little frightened of Wanda. Ansom and Vinnie escape but lose their forest units, the entire alliance army demanding Jillian's execution with Webinar foaming at the mouth in righteous fury, and Ansom being unable to defy them or risk losing the entire alliance, and Jillian in chains (again) suffering under even more guilt than before, awaiting death.

[SteveMB]

Steve's thinking back to Jillian's quote ("Let's both of us get out of here, and--") feels right on. Basically, if the relationship between them was a flirtatious one or intimate onepreviously, Jillian's remarks there, perhaps for the first time, were a declaration of emotional attachment. Not to mention that the words themselves from Jillian expressed an intent for the both of them to leave their respective forces, and in the unspoken part could've been "run away together" or "leave all this behind us".

Unfortunately for Jillian, it looks like evidence of a genuine emotional attachment that would be cause for Jillian to abandon her allies, is what Wanda was waiting for. Not for the romance, but for the foundation of the kind of suggestion spell that would significantly alter Jillian's normal behavior. That foundation of an emotional attachment on which the heavy suggestion spell rests hasn't been disclosed to Parson, Sizemore, or Stanley. And Sizemore, with the information he does have about suggestion spells, and without the information on that emotional attachment that Wanda is relying on to make her suggestion spell work, isn't confident in its success.

I think that's part of it. However, it seems to me that another major part of it (tested and reinforced by Wanda's immediate reaction of knocking the wind of of Jillian and insisting that "Prisoner" address her as "Mistress") was Jillian's willingness to be submissive (in a general psychological sense -- the domme/sub sexual sense may or may not be included) to Wanda.

In that respect, I don't think that the suggestion was "love me". I think that would be unnecessary since Jillian already felt that way.

I agree with that read on it (except that Wanda might include it anyway, if that's what she wanted, just to be sure).

As for what the suggestion actually is...

Well, the worst that she can do to her own side is start attacking the Archons. Which I think would greatly amuse Wanda. I don't know how plausible that is though, even considering the heavy suggestion. Rather than actually switch sides, I think it's slightly more possible that Jillian might lose her ability to distinguish allies from enemies, and attack the Archons.

I'm a bit dubious that the suggestion could be quite as strong as that. For one thing, I don't think it really squares with Sizemore's description (the suggestion makes the subject inclined to take certain actions and invent rationalizations for them) -- note that Wanda does not dispute this description, and simply asserts that Jillian is doing exactly that.

Assuming that Jillian's memories haven't been altered*, I wonder just what rationalization she uses to justify lying about her escape. Does she (as I've speculated) believe that Wanda is actually working against Stanley, and she needs to protect Wanda's cover? (Hmmm... even if Wanda didn't suggest that, Jillian might have dreamed up the notion and then convinced herself it was a fact -- it's such an excellent multi-purpose rationalization in this situation, resolving any loyalty issues and making it OK for her to stop worrying and love her Mistress....) Or perhaps she simply decided that she's the Coalition's Indispensible Dwagon-Slayer, and must therefore conceal anything that might cause the Coalition to give her the boot (or worse) for the Coalition's own good?

*I refer to magical memory alteration, like Wanda used on Mung. Self-deception by Jillian, until she honestly believes her own lies, is a distinct possibility.

EDIT: If the "Jillian believes that Wanda is really on her side" theory is true, that would partially explain her shock on page 38. Sometime between then and the calm snuggly ride on page 41, she might have stumbled her way to a rationalization (with or without input from Wanda) that made sense of the fact that Mistress had squeezed her ruthlessly for everything she knew rather than just enough to maintain appearances....

[Jari Kafghan]

An easy explanation for Jillian justifying, at least to herself, turning on the Archons.

Spoiler

Show

They turned on me in the trees, I had to defend myself, they, Charlie must be working with Stanley!

[Tirian]

Preferred solution: Gobwin Knob is unbeaten, Stanley stays in power, Wanda gets to indulge her specialty (croakamancy) and her hobbies.

Second best solution: Gobwin Knob's beaten, Jillian protects Wanda from being croaked/captured, Jillian helps Wanda live on to practice her magic (but not her hobbies).

I continue to wonder if Wanda's preferred solution is both sides being down to one hit point except for Jillian's stack, Wanda betrays Stanley to become Overlord of Gobwin Knob, Jillian betrays Ansom and defects to become Wanda's chief warlord. and they've got two Arkentools and no seige (except for a booped-off Stanley, assuming that you'd need to keep him alive because he is attuned to the Arkenhammer).

So when Stanley is about to be completely swamped by Ansom, Wanda backs the Perfect Warlord spell and encourages Parson. When Ansom becomes a complete boophead in the face of Parson's strategy, Wanda needs to wipe out the stack of damaged dwagons to keep things even.

[ag30476]

But because I suspect that this story is partially about not getting what you want on a thematic level, I'm afraid that Jillian will fall under the sway of Wanda's suggestion, and that she'll also be exposed under said suggestion with no reasonable excuse. And face some severe consequences, both from potential punishment from her allies, and from her own guilt and confusion.

If the only consequence to betrayal for Jillian (as opposed to how it effect everyone else) is inner guilt then it's not really that big of a deal and we'll feel sorry for her as she wallows in guilt or acts out by sating her lust in battle or in the torture chamber.

But her betrayal is already having real consequences for her in that supporting characters around her are openly mistrustful of her.

If she does betray the coalition yet again at this crucial time and with all eyes on her, then I have to figure she will get some comeuppance.

[Scientivore]

Speaking of, I've been wondering what happens to mercenaries without patrons. If Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone at an inopportune moment and GK declines to hire her, what happens to her next turn? Does she have a private treasury saved up from mercenary profits to pay her upkeep until she can find new employment? Will she poof? What?

[jindra34]

Speaking of, I've been wondering what happens to mercenaries without patrons. If Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone at an inopportune moment and GK declines to hire her, what happens to her next turn? Does she have a private treasury saved up from mercenary profits to pay her upkeep until she can find new employment? Will she poof? What?

Good Question. I hope we do not have to find out the answer.

[ChowGuy]

Basically, if the relationship between them was a flirtatious one or intimate onepreviously, Jillian's remarks there, perhaps for the first time, were a declaration of emotional attachment.

Or the previous relationship between them was nothing of the sort. I've speculated before that:

A) Wanda and Jillian were once on the same side. Perhaps as members of the (Lost) Crotan tribe. If unlike Ansom she's actually a fellow "Barbarian," much of Wanda's actions seem quite civilized.

B) As a Royal, Jillian would have been in a position of authority, one that she may have flaunted to "mere servants" like her court mancers, not unlike the way she flaunts her prowess to Webinar.

C) (Quite a stretch, but bear with me) Gobwin Knob may have been part of if not the seat of their realm, before Stanley took it. "Goblins" and "Trolls" are as often asscoaciated with "Barbarian" as a faction as with "Evil" as an alignment after all. Vinny says he doesn't know what Stanley did to her (does Ansom?), but that would plenty reason enough to want to take the city and see Stanley go down. No wonder than that she'd react badly to Webinar accusing her of following orders from him whatever her other motives are.

D) When she suggests to Wanda "Let's both of us get out of here, and--" she would in fact be asking Wanda to commit treason, and to return to her (Zamussel's) side as her faithful little minion. Not a suggestion Wanda likes, and she wastes no time in reminding "Prisoner" that she is no longer to be casually treated as "Wanda the minion" - she is now "Wanda the Mistress."

E) At dawn Jillian realizes, something, with a shock and breaks down in tears. A lot of speculation here has it that the "realization" is in how much she has revealed during the night, but she's already been shown as conceding that. On page 36 she says, head bowed (in defeat?), "I have withheld nothing." Why then the sudden shock? And more importantly, why the tears? That's an emotional reaction that seems out of character for a Mercenary and a Barbarian Princess, particularly one who has not yet demonstrated much personal attachment to the coalition or anyone as such.

F) (A real biggie) This sequence, however, occurs just as she and Wanda are talking about the past, and the fact that Jillian is herself a Royal, though she's kept it hidden. Now, if Jillian is or was a "Royal" of Gobwin Knob, and if Stanley came to power there by regicide (sort of), had Jillian been involved in that betrayal? Even if "You never had as much choice as it seemed." The (suppressed, but now refreshed?) memory of something like that seems a much better reason for her to break down as she does.

Wanda is almost certainly playing Jillian for a mere pawn. She probably has before. She may be playing against Stanley for her own reasons, but isn't about to hand GK over to the coalition. Jillian however might be led to believe that she would hand it over to Ansom personally, if it involved maintaining or expanding her own position there, she as the real power behind the throne to it's rightful "Lady" and her consort?

[SteveMB]

F) (A real biggie) This sequence, however, occurs just as she and Wanda are talking about the past, and the fact that Jillian is herself a Royal, though she's kept it hidden. Now, if Jillian is or was a "Royal" of Gobwin Knob, and if Stanley came to power there by regicide (sort of), had Jillian been involved in that betrayal? Even if "You never had as much choice as it seemed." The (suppressed, but now refreshed?) memory of something like that seems a much better reason for her to break down as she does.

The problem with this suggestion is the fact that Jillian shows no immediate reaction to Wanda reminding her that she's a royal (nor does she show any sign that her memory of that fact has been "suppressed"). The breakdown is rather clearly timed to coincide with the dawn start-of-turn/ration popping moment.

[ChowGuy]

The problem with this suggestion is the fact that Jillian shows no immediate reaction to Wanda reminding her that she's a royal (nor does she show any sign that her memory of that fact has been "suppressed"). The breakdown is rather clearly timed to coincide with the dawn start-of-turn/ration popping moment.

The latter appears to have interrupted the former, actually. And as for the suppression we see Wanda mind-cloud Mung with what appears to be the same stuff she used to "suggest" whatever she has to Jillian. She may have done so in the past as well, and now revoked that suggestion at the start of turn as another takes its place.

As I said, a stretch, but no more unsupported then the currently popular alternative based on a single raher ambiguous panel and the desire to read something "kinky" into it just because that's what's expected in this day and age.

If nothing else, it would go a long way to explain Jillian's past recklessness, "avoidance" of attachments, and "don't obsess on it" attitude if because of a suppressed "guilt" Wanda refers to she's got a lurking Death Wish even she can't explain.

[benthehater]

Or the previous relationship between them was nothing of the sort. I've speculated before that:

A) Wanda and Jillian were once on the same side. Perhaps as members of the (Lost) Crotan tribe. If unlike Ansom she's actually a fellow "Barbarian," much of Wanda's actions seem quite civilized.

Well, being in that Wanda won't reveal her origins because she's mysterious, and Jillian has a secret regarding her royalty to keep secret, it's entirely possible that the two unknowns can be either seperate unknowns or a related place of origin.

B) As a Royal, Jillian would have been in a position of authority, one that she may have flaunted to "mere servants" like her court mancers, not unlike the way she flaunts her prowess to Webinar.

Does this kind of thing seem to be in her behavior? I have to wonder if either Jillian is adopting a barbarian persona to hide her royalty, and isn't necessarily genuinely barbarian, or she is barbarian royalty and she's behaved in her own style always. There's no infancy in Erfworld, so the Moses option is bunk. I think it's also worth mentioning that the cast page "Barbarian" isn't identified as a tribe, but as a class, right next to Warlord. Maybe thinking of Barbarian as a tribe is where we're going wrong.

C) (Quite a stretch, but bear with me) Gobwin Knob may have been part of if not the seat of their realm, before Stanley took it. "Goblins" and "Trolls" are as often asscoaciated with "Barbarian" as a faction as with "Evil" as an alignment after all. Ansom says he doesn't know what Stanley did to her, but that would plenty reason enough to want to take the city and see Stanley go down. No wonder than that she'd react badly to Webinar accusing her of following orders from him whatever her other motives are.

Again, she's keeping a secret, so it is possible that the unknowns matches up like that as motivation. I kind of find it hard to group Goblins and Trolls with Barbarians though, at least with the media that I'm familiar with in reference to Barbarians being a tribe of humans. Vinnie says he doesn't know what Stanley did to Zamussels, but in that context of him saying that, it seems equally probable that Stanley himself didn't do much of anything, let alone commit some crime against her to provoke her interest in the campaign. Though, in that same dialogue Vinnie mentions Stanley wiping out the Milquetoast clan. Since the Milquetoast clan were "wiped out", and Wanda's tribe the Croatan were "lost" I find it hard to think that Stanley destroyed the Croatan. I'd pin that one on Wanda if I were forced to make an accusation.

D) When she suggests to Wanda "Let's both of us get out of here, and--" she would in fact be asking Wanda to commit treason, and to return to her (Zamussel's) side as her faithful little minion. Not a suggestion Wanda likes, and she wastes no time in reminding "Prisoner" that she is no longer to be casually treated as "Wanda the minion" - she is now "Wanda the Mistress."

I really don't think they're from the same tribe. I think Wanda enjoys more of the physical and psychological responses to pain more so than the sense of humiliating a royal.

E) At dawn Jillian realizes, something, with a shock and breaks down in tears. A lot of speculation here has it that the "realization" is in how much she has revealed during the night, but she's already been shown as conceding that. On page 36 she says, head bowed (in defeat?), "I have withheld nothing." Why then the sudden shock? And more importantly, why the tears? That's an emotional reaction that seems out of character for a Mercenary and a Barbarian Princess, particularly one who has not yet demonstrated much personal attachment to the coalition or anyone as such.

I think an emotional reaction after an intense night of torture with speculated sexual activity isn't out of character for any character with more than two dimensions. One of the panels before refreshing at Dawn makes it look as if Jillian is missing teeth. Did Wanda knock her teeth out with a fist? With a club? Did she extract them with a pair of vice grips? If nothing else, those two panels show us that Jillian did not endure torture like 007, nor did she withstand torture like an action hero, but got broken. Wanda's remarks during Jillian's sobbing illuminate it for as much as it likely ever will be illuminated. I think it's worth mentioning that Wanda, who did it to her, makes an effort at being comforting when the guilt and shame comes.

F) (A real biggie) This sequence, however, occurs just as she and Wanda are talking about the past, and the fact that Jillian is herself a Royal, though she's kept it hidden. Now, if Jillian is or was a "Royal" of Gobwin Knob, and if Stanley came to power there by regicide (sort of), had Jillian been involved in that betrayal? Even if "You never had as much choice as it seemed." The (suppressed, but now refreshed?) memory of something like that seems a much better reason for her to break down as she does.

Well, since you lost me at B ... I'll try to see what we have here. If Jillian is a royal of the Milkquetoast clan (the one Stanley did wipe out according to Vinnie), and if the Milkquetoast clan previously had Gobwin Knob which I guess is possible ... and Jillian by ...

No, I can't say I'm with you here. I have to think that torture sessions tend to put you in a very in-the-now mode, and don't usually draw one into a flashback. I think her emotional reaction is precisely about the morning refresh giving her a clarity about the precise details of when Wanda broke her, and the guilt and shame that comes from betraying yourself.

Wanda is almost certainly playing Jillian for a mere pawn. She probably has before. She may be playing against Stanley for her own reasons, but isn't about to hand GK over to the coalition. Jillian however might be led to believe that she would hand it over to Ansom personally, if it involved maintaining or expanding her own position there, she as the real power behind the throne to it's rightful "Lady" and her consort?

Well, I think Wanda is playing everyone and everything actually. So, Jillian would certainly be filed under everyone. Same with Stanley, yes. I think Steve and Scientivore have outlined how Wanda, in spite of all that she's keeping from us, does seem to really want Gobwin Knob to win this conflict, and have probably expressed it better than I could. I think that Wanda's super secret plans, hidden by her impenetrable character and motivation, are bigger than the outcome of the battle for Gobwin Knob. And I think Wanda respects the powers of the Arkenhammer, and respects that Stanley wields that power, even if she doesn't respect Stanley.

[ChowGuy]

There's no infancy in Erfworld, so the Moses option is bunk.

Nor did I proose such, if by "the Moses option" you mean foundling either raised as a royal (as Moses was), or royal raised as commoner (which would be the Arthur option). What I'm proposing is more a figure in a palace coup, gone bad (for her).

I think it's also worth mentioning that the cast page "Barbarian" isn't identified as a tribe, but as a class, right next to Warlord. Maybe thinking of Barbarian as a tribe is where we're going wrong.

Again, not what I'm thinking. To the contrary, while Wanda like everyone else is identified by tribe, Jillian "Claims" no tribe, so we cannot rule out her having a common tribe with Wanda.

It would be something she'd want to keep quiet about around Vinny and the other coalition members though, unlike being a member of a tribe whose grudge against Stanley they know about. Imagine if you will telling Webinar "Hey, what I want is to get my city and my army back!" He already thinks she's in league with the enemy, how's that going to sound?

[benthehater]

As I said, a stretch, but no more unsupported then the currently popular alternative based on a single raher ambiguous panel and the desire to read something "kinky" into it just because that's what's expected in this day and age.

Seriously? Your saying that the theory supported by defining unknowns crossed referenced by speculation in regard to unrevealed character history is equally unsupported as a determination derived from subtext that you call a "single" "ambiguous" panel that's not actually very single nor very ambiguous?

Wanda just likes getting dressed up. She's in no way carrying a cat of nine tails (now, when she has plenty of them inside the torture chamber) because of it completing a definitive resemblence to the type of people who like to use them. And Mung says he has an erection for completely unrelated reasons.

Did you mean that ambiguous panel or another one?

[SteveMB]

E) At dawn Jillian realizes, something, with a shock and breaks down in tears. A lot of speculation here has it that the "realization" is in how much she has revealed during the night, but she's already been shown as conceding that. On page 36 she says, head bowed (in defeat?), "I have withheld nothing." Why then the sudden shock? And more importantly, why the tears? That's an emotional reaction that seems out of character for a Mercenary and a Barbarian Princess, particularly one who has not yet demonstrated much personal attachment to the coalition or anyone as such.

F) (A real biggie) This sequence, however, occurs just as she and Wanda are talking about the past, and the fact that Jillian is herself a Royal, though she's kept it hidden. Now, if Jillian is or was a "Royal" of Gobwin Knob, and if Stanley came to power there by regicide (sort of), had Jillian been involved in that betrayal? Even if "You never had as much choice as it seemed." The (suppressed, but now refreshed?) memory of something like that seems a much better reason for her to break down as she does.

I think I've put my finger on why this argument doesn't make sense to me.

Before dawn, Jillian easily, almost casually, conceded to Wanda both the fact that she hasn't held anything back (panel 36/9) and the fact that she's a royal (panels 38/1-2). Why, then, should her breakdown be connected to some sudden rush of realization connected to the latter, rather than to the former?

(The reverse question is trivially easy to answer -- selling out one's side is shameful in and of itself; being a royal is not. You are speculating that there is some shameful history connected to Jillian's royal past, but there's no evidence to support that contention.)

Well, being in that Wanda won't reveal her origins because she's mysterious, and Jillian has a secret regarding her royalty to keep secret, it's entirely possible that the two unknowns can be either seperate unknowns or a related place of origin.

Rob and Jamie have revealed that she's of the Croatan tribe on the cast page, but it hasn't actually been mentioned in the story. That being the case, given how far we are into this chapter, I'm inclined to assume that this bit of background is intended for potential future chapters.

Of course, I could be wrong; there's still a few dozen pages to go.

And I think Wanda respects the powers of the Arkenhammer, and respects that Stanley wields that power, even if she doesn't respect Stanley.

Note that Wanda chides Stanley (to the extent she could reasonably expect to get away with) for using the Arkenhammer to crack walnuts.

[sihnfahl]

I continue to wonder if Wanda's preferred solution is both sides being down to one hit point except for Jillian's stack, Wanda betrays Stanley to become Overlord of Gobwin Knob, Jillian betrays Ansom and defects to become Wanda's chief warlord. and they've got two Arkentools and no seige (except for a booped-off Stanley, assuming that you'd need to keep him alive because he is attuned to the Arkenhammer).

Wanda strikes me as the type who prefers to behind the throne, not on it.

She seems to have no interest in things such as unit production, building, research, etc; only her magic and her hobbies interest her. Being on the throne would force her to deal with and do things she has no interest in.

Let Stanley (or someone else) do all that 'dirty' work, while she 'nudges' them into directions she thinks will satisfy her needs more.

I do have to say she's pretty knowledgeable about psychology; I'm almost convinced Jillian is now suffering from capture bonding due to Wanda's treatment.

[Vreejack]

Speaking of, I've been wondering what happens to mercenaries without patrons. If Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone at an inopportune moment and GK declines to hire her, what happens to her next turn? Does she have a private treasury saved up from mercenary profits to pay her upkeep until she can find new employment? Will she poof? What?

And when does she move? That one has puzzled me all along. If she is not allied to either side then when is her turn? We have always seen two opposed sides and no others, but what if there are three or more players? Maybe I just answered that question.

[ag30476]

Speaking of, I've been wondering what happens to mercenaries without patrons. If Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone at an inopportune moment and GK declines to hire her, what happens to her next turn? Does she have a private treasury saved up from mercenary profits to pay her upkeep until she can find new employment? Will she poof? What?

Good Question. I hope we do not have to find out the answer.

Good question indeed! Maybe the anwer is even better!

[ag30476]

Seriously? Your saying that the theory supported by defining unknowns crossed referenced by speculation in regard to unrevealed character history is equally unsupported as a determination derived from subtext that you call a "single" "ambiguous" panel that's not actually very single nor very ambiguous?

Wanda just likes getting dressed up. She's in no way carrying a cat of nine tails (now, when she has plenty of them inside the torture chamber) because of it completing a definitive resemblence to the type of people who like to use them. And Mung says he has an erection for completely unrelated reasons.

Did you mean that ambiguous panel or another one?

Brilliant! Have a Guiness!

[Rumex]

Before dawn, Jillian easily, almost casually, conceded to Wanda both the fact that she hasn't held anything back (panel 36/9) and the fact that she's a royal (panels 38/1-2). Why, then, should her breakdown be connected to some sudden rush of realization connected to the latter, rather than to the former?

Exactly. I'm with those that think the 'start of turn' has something to do with it. I suspect that the spell Wanda used wore off (or, at least, the obvious parts of it did) at the beginning of the next turn. Probably, it kept her from having to think about what she did, so when it stopped providing the explanations, Jillian was stuck with a bunch of guilt and had to start rationalizing on her own.

The fact that she cuddled up to Wanda on the ride back suggests that she was successful in her rationalizations. But it's not a sure thing. If she decided that Wanda was really a bad guy and needed to be brought to justice, she can play along until she gets a chance to capture Wanda herself, allowing Jillian to protect her from getting killed and maybe try to persuade Wanda to give up her evil ways.

Sure, it sounds silly from a coldly logical standpoint, but that's love for ya.

[SteveMB]

Exactly. I'm with those that think the 'start of turn' has something to do with it. I suspect that the spell Wanda used wore off (or, at least, the obvious parts of it did) at the beginning of the next turn. Probably, it kept her from having to think about what she did, so when it stopped providing the explanations, Jillian was stuck with a bunch of guilt and had to start rationalizing on her own.

(emphasis added)

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but it perfectly fits the description Sizemore gave (and Wanda agreed with -- she said, yes, that's what Jillian is doing). My one caveat is that I don't think the spell "provided the explanations" -- it simply put Jillian into a befuddled mental state where she just didn't think about matters that required such explanations.

EDIT: It also fits neatly with Wanda's "comforting" comments in the wake of Jillian's breakdown. By this theory, they were calculated to give her a pointer and nudge toward those rationalizations, thus 1)assuring that her conclusions were the ones Wanda wanted and 2)getting her superficially back to normal ASAP* so that the "bait" plan could be set in motion.

*In a turn-based context, this is perhaps more accurately expressed as making sure that she "recovered" within the current turn.

The fact that she cuddled up to Wanda on the ride back suggests that she was successful in her rationalizations. But it's not a sure thing. If she decided that Wanda was really a bad guy and needed to be brought to justice, she can play along until she gets a chance to capture Wanda herself, allowing Jillian to protect her from getting killed and maybe try to persuade Wanda to give up her evil ways.

Sure, it sounds silly from a coldly logical standpoint, but that's love for ya.

That seems a bit too subtle for Jillian, acting on her own volition (especially if, as this theory posits, she's just recently broken the suggestion -- you'd think her mental and emotional state would be particularly fragile under those circumstances).

[Rumex]

That seems a bit too subtle for Jillian, acting on her own volition (especially if, as this theory posits, she's just recently broken the suggestion -- you'd think her mental and emotional state would be particularly fragile under those circumstances).

Oh, agreed. It's an unlikely scenario, but it's still within the realm of possibility. As long as we're speculating on what might happen in regards to the spell, it's fun to think over how it might backfire.

Depending on the exact nature of the suggestion, Jillian wouldn't necessary have to break the spell to act that way. If the spell is centered around Wanda, Jillian may decide that Wanda's game is too dangerous, and save her by personally capturing her and seeing that she gets treated well. It would require that Jillian take the initiative in their relationship, though.

[Talanic]

So dawn comes, she's healed, and she's suddenly in shock and crying.

Why? Easy. Which side heals at dawn? Stanley's. It suddenly hit home to Jillian that she'd completely betrayed Jetstone, to the point of the world considering her allegiance as belonging to Stanley.

That's why Wanda's not worried. Sizemore's right; the spell Wanda says she used wouldn't work for what they want Jillian to do. Jillian may not be under any spells.

[SteveMB]

So dawn comes, she's healed, and she's suddenly in shock and crying.

Why? Easy. Which side heals at dawn? Stanley's. It suddenly hit home to Jillian that she'd completely betrayed Jetstone, to the point of the world considering her allegiance as belonging to Stanley.

If that were it, she wouldn't be able to move now (during Ansom's turn).

[jindra34]

So dawn comes, she's healed, and she's suddenly in shock and crying.

Why? Easy. Which side heals at dawn? Stanley's. It suddenly hit home to Jillian that she'd completely betrayed Jetstone, to the point of the world considering her allegiance as belonging to Stanley.

Um... sorry Pclips has stated that prisoners heal and all on the captors turn.