The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign

[Triaxx]

Imperial troops do actually wear plate armor. But only heavy troops and commanders most of the time. Studded Imperial Armor has chain on it's shoulders. So it's not a lost art, just one that's very time consuming and so is used sparingly. In all those places I'd expect to see it, the arms of Steel Plate Armor, and the arms and legs of Orcish, are either quilted, or scaled plate. Of course Skyrim is cold and it's possible there is chain there, just sandwiched between quilted layers.

Surprisingly David Eddings the Author made one salient point about chain vs. plate. It's much easier to put on and remove chain armor yourself than full plate.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Which would be great, if anyone bothered to wear full plate. It certainly exists, so why don't any soldiers, you know, wear it? Its ridiculous that bandits are better equipped than professional soldiers.

That's an artifact of the game engine and the difference between the various armor skills as well as an arbitrary distinction based on skill for a given armor style. Because Bethesda doesn't know, and couldn't care less, about accuracy.

[The_Jackal]

That's an artifact of the game engine and the difference between the various armor skills as well as an arbitrary distinction based on skill for a given armor style. Because Bethesda doesn't know, and couldn't care less, about accuracy.

This. Most importantly, Skyrim's engine (and many 3d engines) do not handle flowing materials well. There might be some good-looking cloth physics in the offing somewhere in the 3d world, but right now it's in the same position as hair: Awful by default. So, in lieu of making chainmail that looks crap, they opted to make rigid/semi-rigid armor the default.

[Keltest]

I refuse to believe that they couldn't have replaced some of the cloth components of the heavier armors with chainmail. You go through four or five variants of leather/hide armor of nord design in light armor before you hit elven armor (which is, for some reason, more metal than the steel plate armor) before we get to scaled armor which, at least, seems to be metal based nord made light armor. The hold guard armors do seem to be made of chainmail... and they are also for some reason some of the weakest armors in the game.

The heavy armors are better, in that they at least could plausibly function as armor on their own, but you still run into the question of why the steel armor leaves your arms completely exposed when chainmail has been widely available for at least 200 years, and almost certainly since earlier.

And its not like the game engine can't handle it. There ARE suits of chainmail in the game, like the Ebony Mail. Its just for some reason, Nords don't want to wear anything that isn't made exclusively of animal parts.

[factotum]

For the same reason that bayonets exist and are used to this day: A gun, or an evocation spell equivalent ranged blasting, is a ranged weapon, and its effectiveness in close quarters combat is marginal without a very high level of specialized training.

Um, you might have noticed I included "bow" in my list of non-magical weapons? Are you assuming that nobody actually uses those as ranged weapons, but just hits the bad guys over the head with it when they get close?

[Caelestion]

Surprisingly David Eddings the Author made one salient point about chain vs. plate. It's much easier to put on and remove chain armor yourself than full plate.

It's not that surprising, as Eddings liked to do his own research. When working out how far a person could walk in a day, he went out and walked for a day to try it out personally.

[The_Jackal]

It's not that surprising, as Eddings liked to do his own research. When working out how far a person could walk in a day, he went out and walked for a day to try it out personally.

Again, realism need not apply. There's armor in this game that's made of glass. The real-world inspiration for the Imperial Soldier armor and the real-world inspiration for the Steel Plate Armor are further apart in time (1,100 years or so) than Plate armor is from modern military body armor. But then, we've also got Vikings (790-1066) who get their hands on samurai swords (1400s), and super-deadly cat-people wrestlers. Like most modern fantasy settings, it's an aesthetic salad bar with no particular attention paid to realism or historical accuracy.

[Keltest]

Again, realism need not apply. There's armor in this game that's made of glass. The real-world inspiration for the Imperial Soldier armor and the real-world inspiration for the Steel Plate Armor are further apart in time (1,100 years or so) than Plate armor is from modern military body armor. But then, we've also got Vikings (790-1066) who get their hands on samurai swords (1400s), and super-deadly cat-people wrestlers. Like most modern fantasy settings, it's an aesthetic salad bar with no particular attention paid to realism or historical accuracy.

Its not about realism, its about verisimilitude. The nords are clearly capable of creating actual armor, so why do they run around wearing nothing but dead animal skins and belts?

[mythmonster2]

Again, realism need not apply. There's armor in this game that's made of glass.

Minor nitpick: Glass armor and weaponry in Elder Scrolls isn't actually glass as we know it, it's a type of metal that's just called glass. Same as how Ebony isn't actually wood, it's just a type of metal called ebony.

Its not about realism, its about verisimilitude. The nords are clearly capable of creating actual armor, so why do they run around wearing nothing but dead animal skins and belts?

The main thing, I would think, would be that plate armor requires a lot more time, effort, and materials to craft, all of which might be short supply in the middle of a civil war. Plus, I read someone somewhere who pointed out that plate armor might not even be the best bet in Skyrim. Hjalmarch and the lower parts of Eastmarch are swamp, the Pale, Winterhold, and the rest of Eastmarch are tundra where warmth is more important than protection, and the Reach and Haafingar are mountainous terrain where wearing plate armor might wear you down.

[Honest Tiefling]

Minor nitpick: Glass armor and weaponry in Elder Scrolls isn't actually glass as we know it, it's a type of metal that's just called glass. Same as how Ebony isn't actually wood, it's just a type of metal called ebony.

Story Time! I needed Nightshade for that one quest for that crazy herbalist woman. I headed to the swamps, because of course nightshade grows there. I was an idiot.

As for the armor, I feel like Skyrim might have gone for barbarian-chic. I think it was also to cement the idea that Skyrim has some issues and might not be able to produce a whole lot of expensive armor, but given the fact there are a lot of trees and iron mines I'm not so sure that quite works.

[Keltest]

Minor nitpick: Glass armor and weaponry in Elder Scrolls isn't actually glass as we know it, it's a type of metal that's just called glass. Same as how Ebony isn't actually wood, it's just a type of metal called ebony.


The main thing, I would think, would be that plate armor requires a lot more time, effort, and materials to craft, all of which might be short supply in the middle of a civil war. Plus, I read someone somewhere who pointed out that plate armor might not even be the best bet in Skyrim. Hjalmarch and the lower parts of Eastmarch are swamp, the Pale, Winterhold, and the rest of Eastmarch are tundra where warmth is more important than protection, and the Reach and Haafingar are mountainous terrain where wearing plate armor might wear you down.

Given that pretty much every set of light armor except for leather and scaled leave you shirtless, and most heavy armor below full plate leaves you sleeveless, warmth is clearly not a concern.

Granted, plate armor in a swamp or mountain is possibly not the greatest idea, but animal hide armor in a swamp is even worse!

[Inarius]

The main thing, I would think, would be that plate armor requires a lot more time, effort, and materials to craft, all of which might be short supply in the middle of a civil war. Plus, I read someone somewhere who pointed out that plate armor might not even be the best bet in Skyrim. Hjalmarch and the lower parts of Eastmarch are swamp, the Pale, Winterhold, and the rest of Eastmarch are tundra where warmth is more important than protection, and the Reach and Haafingar are mountainous terrain where wearing plate armor might wear you down.

This actually is untrue, the last time this debate came up I said that as well but I wound up doing some digging and well there's a certain tipping point. Plate takes a lot of metallurgical knowledge and infrastructure to make but once you have that in place a full suit of plate armor can be made in a few days where as a full suit of chain armor can take over two months to make.

The biggest difference between the two (other than protection) is that chain armor is insanely easy to care for and plate basically needs to be custom fitted on a per person basis where as chain can be stuffed in a store room and pulled out as needed.

[Triaxx]

I'm really coming to hate the V word. What it means is to make this game more like reality, which means it's no longer consistent within it's own world. You end up removing magic, dragons, elves, Khajiit and Argonians. All those things that are wrong, or don't work in the real world.

The other part of the question is more interesting. Why isn't everyone running around in expensive, highly protective gear. Kill a random Bandit. If you're lucky he's got 11 gold. He's not exactly rich enough for high value heavy armor.

Personal preference plays a part in it as well. Take the companions. Farkas and Villas clank around in Heavy Armor, yet Aela wanders around in Ancient Nord. It's not like she's not able to afford it, or ask Eorlund to Smith it. She simply prefers to be more mobile, and not weighed down by steel plate.

[LibraryOgre]

Given that pretty much every set of light armor except for leather and scaled leave you shirtless, and most heavy armor below full plate leaves you sleeveless, warmth is clearly not a concern.

Consider that Nords are nearly immune to the cold... they might not notice cold weather that has khajiit curled up by the fire, grumbling.

[Keltest]

I'm really coming to hate the V word. What it means is to make this game more like reality, which means it's no longer consistent within it's own world. You end up removing magic, dragons, elves, Khajiit and Argonians. All those things that are wrong, or don't work in the real world.

The other part of the question is more interesting. Why isn't everyone running around in expensive, highly protective gear. Kill a random Bandit. If you're lucky he's got 11 gold. He's not exactly rich enough for high value heavy armor.

Personal preference plays a part in it as well. Take the companions. Farkas and Villas clank around in Heavy Armor, yet Aela wanders around in Ancient Nord. It's not like she's not able to afford it, or ask Eorlund to Smith it. She simply prefers to be more mobile, and not weighed down by steel plate.

Ancient Nord armor is actually also heavy armor. She is trained in light armor, making her somewhat of an oddity in that she is not competent in her default armor.

Having said that, Verisimilitude means for something to be consistent with its own world, which skyrim light armors are not. We know they have the capabilities of making chain and plate armors, so why don't they? Sure, bandits could plausibly be using armor they made out of animal skins and wagon parts, but anybody who isn't actively under a bounty should at least have something that covers their torso better than a belt.

[Honest Tiefling]

Consider that Nords are nearly immune to the cold... they might not notice cold weather that has khajiit curled up by the fire, grumbling.

Which would be awesome, except for the fact that everyone else wears the same armor. I wonder, would nords actually overheat in hotter climates with heavier armors?

Personal preference plays a part in it as well. Take the companions. Farkas and Villas clank around in Heavy Armor, yet Aela wanders around in Ancient Nord. It's not like she's not able to afford it, or ask Eorlund to Smith it. She simply prefers to be more mobile, and not weighed down by steel plate.

Aela...Probably has other reasons she might not want much armor, through I think that design went a little too far. If she turns to the side or inhales too deeply she's going to be flashing her boobs. I'd feel bad making the poor thing run without proper support. I'm also not sure what those metal shoulder pads are attached to...

[Rynjin]

I'm really coming to hate the V word. What it means is to make this game more like reality, which means it's no longer consistent within it's own world. You end up removing magic, dragons, elves, Khajiit and Argonians. All those things that are wrong, or don't work in the real world.

This is literally the opposite of what verisimilitude means. "The V word" refers to internal consistency, which is why it's a preferred term for fantasy settings over "realism".

If, say, Argonians were described as being able to breathe underwater, but the mechanics did not give them water breathing, that would break verisimilitude as well, as an example.

[Caelestion]

Yes, verisimilitude refers to something having the appearance of reality (essentially fitting in well with its own setting).

[LibraryOgre]

The fact that verisimilitude has become so common a phrase in these discussions makes me happy.

[Keltest]

The fact that verisimilitude has become so common a phrase in these discussions makes me happy.

One day you wont need that line in your sig.

[Triaxx]

Do you have an idea how cold metal gets? I mean, yes, wandering around Whiterun in Chainmail is fine, but Windhelm? Or Winterhold? Yeah, you're going to get frostbite pretty fast, followed by the metal burning itself to your skin. Thanks, I think I'll take some nice dead fox or wolf. Doesn't smell too bad once it's been tanned and hardened into armor quality leather. Plus the whole not burning to my skin is nice.

The shirtlessness thing is a bit odd, I agree, but on the other hand, it's also breathable, so you're not getting sweat trapped underneath and making you wet and cold. I don't think Aela's the type to be bothered much by a flash. In fact I suspect her choice of armor is so she can get rapidly out of it when she changes to Werewolf.

[The_Jackal]

Its not about realism, its about verisimilitude. The nords are clearly capable of creating actual armor, so why do they run around wearing nothing but dead animal skins and belts?

Why do animal skins outperform heavy plate once you reach a certain level of protection? Once you hit 567 armor, it doesn't matter what you're wearing, and to be frank, I'm fine with that, because we also don't generally put our action heroes in helmets and kevlar in movies or TV. The reason the animal skins are in there is because they look cool and barbaric, so yeah, everything is fur-trimmed leather.

Minor nitpick: Glass armor and weaponry in Elder Scrolls isn't actually glass as we know it, it's a type of metal that's just called glass. Same as how Ebony isn't actually wood, it's just a type of metal called ebony.

Right, so Skyrim fabrication technology includes how to fabricate and shape aluminum oxynitride? It's a high magic universe with all sorts of weird cool stuff because it's weird and cool. We don't need to see the math.

The main thing, I would think, would be that plate armor requires a lot more time, effort, and materials to craft, all of which might be short supply in the middle of a civil war. Plus, I read someone somewhere who pointed out that plate armor might not even be the best bet in Skyrim. Hjalmarch and the lower parts of Eastmarch are swamp, the Pale, Winterhold, and the rest of Eastmarch are tundra where warmth is more important than protection, and the Reach and Haafingar are mountainous terrain where wearing plate armor might wear you down.

Actual vikings did use chainmail. They would wear a padded wool jerkin beneath the mail.

I'm really coming to hate the V word. What it means is to make this game more like reality, which means it's no longer consistent within it's own world. You end up removing magic, dragons, elves, Khajiit and Argonians. All those things that are wrong, or don't work in the real world.

The other part of the question is more interesting. Why isn't everyone running around in expensive, highly protective gear. Kill a random Bandit. If you're lucky he's got 11 gold. He's not exactly rich enough for high value heavy armor.

Personal preference plays a part in it as well. Take the companions. Farkas and Villas clank around in Heavy Armor, yet Aela wanders around in Ancient Nord. It's not like she's not able to afford it, or ask Eorlund to Smith it. She simply prefers to be more mobile, and not weighed down by steel plate.

This is what I'm on about. I totally agree with Triaxx here. Looking cool requires no excuse, and looking dumb allows none.

Verisimilitude means for something to be consistent with its own world, which skyrim light armors are not. We know they have the capabilities of making chain and plate armors, so why don't they? Sure, bandits could plausibly be using armor they made out of animal skins and wagon parts, but anybody who isn't actively under a bounty should at least have something that covers their torso better than a belt.

But it is consistent. Light armor can be as good, and arguably is better, than heavy armor, according to the physical rules (game mechanics) that govern that reality. Heck, scaled armor is wayyy better than the imperial plate, with no tempering or enchantments or anything.

[Keltest]

Do you have an idea how cold metal gets? I mean, yes, wandering around Whiterun in Chainmail is fine, but Windhelm? Or Winterhold? Yeah, you're going to get frostbite pretty fast, followed by the metal burning itself to your skin. Thanks, I think I'll take some nice dead fox or wolf. Doesn't smell too bad once it's been tanned and hardened into armor quality leather. Plus the whole not burning to my skin is nice.

The shirtlessness thing is a bit odd, I agree, but on the other hand, it's also breathable, so you're not getting sweat trapped underneath and making you wet and cold. I don't think Aela's the type to be bothered much by a flash. In fact I suspect her choice of armor is so she can get rapidly out of it when she changes to Werewolf.

Chainmail armor is typically worn with several layers of padding underneath it, in part because pinchy loops of metal on your bare skin is a terrible, terrible idea no matter what climate youre in.

Also, using leather armor the way skyrim does is basically a myth. You would wear a quilted gambeson for that, which is legitimately protective on its own merits, plus its super warm.

Why do animal skins outperform heavy plate once you reach a certain level of protection? Once you hit 567 armor, it doesn't matter what you're wearing, and to be frank, I'm fine with that, because we also don't generally put our action heroes in helmets and kevlar in movies or TV. The reason the animal skins are in there is because they look cool and barbaric, so yeah, everything is fur-trimmed leather.

Because you become supernaturally difficult to hit at all, at least theoretically, compared to plate armor which accepts the blow and just doesn't care.

But it is consistent. Light armor can be as good, and arguably is better, than heavy armor, according to the physical rules (game mechanics) that govern that reality. Heck, scaled armor is wayyy better than the imperial plate, with no tempering or enchantments or anything.

Then imperial plate sucks, but that's not what I mean. In Morrowind and Oblivion, you had chainmail armor which was better protective than fur or leather armors. Some of it was even specifically identified as being of Nordic design in Morrowind. Why is this no longer the case in Skyrim, where metal armor is seemingly unheard of except by the fabulously wealthy, friends of blacksmiths, or foreign designed armor?

[NEO|Phyte]

Then imperial plate sucks, but that's not what I mean. In Morrowind and Oblivion, you had chainmail armor which was better protective than fur or leather armors. Some of it was even specifically identified as being of Nordic design in Morrowind. Why is this no longer the case in Skyrim, where metal armor is seemingly unheard of except by the fabulously wealthy, friends of blacksmiths, or foreign designed armor?

Because it all got shipped to Morrowind and was lost when the Red Mountain exploded.

[Triaxx]

I was thinking Leather like Irileth wears rather than the first most NPC's wear.

[Keltest]

I was thinking Leather like Irileth wears rather than the first most NPC's wear.

Same deal. That armor was basically a myth. You could boil leather to make it stiff and armor quality, but you wouldn't have a suit made exclusively of the stuff, it would be used as a frame to attach metal segments to. A hypothetical suit of exclusively leather would be better than wearing just a shirt, marginally, but it wouldn't turn aside a blow enough to prevent you from being wounded. And I don't think the leather armor in Skyrim is intended to be boiled leather.

[Inarius]

Same deal. That armor was basically a myth. You could boil leather to make it stiff and armor quality, but you wouldn't have a suit made exclusively of the stuff, it would be used as a frame to attach metal segments to. A hypothetical suit of exclusively leather would be better than wearing just a shirt, marginally, but it wouldn't turn aside a blow enough to prevent you from being wounded. And I don't think the leather armor in Skyrim is intended to be boiled leather.

Well it wasn't really a myth because it couldn't be made into an effective armor, but rather because it was a waste of good leather to make a whole suit of armor out of it exclusively. Especially when Gambeson was as good as it, if not better because it was also much more flexible, and was and made out of much cheaper and more numerous materials.

[veti]

In-game, Serana can use her blood to taint elven arrows for a temporary eclipse. My understanding of Harkon's plan was that he would sacrifice Serana to taint the bow itself for a lasting eclipse. Is that incorrect?

I've never played the vampire side, so I don't know if there's a conversation you can have with him at some point about that (but I'm not sure when it would happen). Even if he permanently taints the bow, it may still need re-using every day. It would fit the prophecy just as well as your version.

You know, I'm still salty over that? A) is awesome, but B) is just made entirely out of cliche But Thou Must to stop a thing that's only a problem because the writers couldn't think of another way to end their game.

If "can't think of another way to finish it" was really the issue, it would be trivial to have Fawkes auto-killed, or otherwise separated, from the hero during the final battle. I think there was some other imperative at work there, probably to do with making room for the Broken Steel expansion.

What levitation does is allow players to circumvent Bethesda's design.

Or to put it another way, to go off the rails... Just think how much easier all those Oblivion gates would be, if you could fly.

This is my biggest single beef with the changes. Morrowind showed the degree of freedom that is possible. There were still plenty of dungeons, but if you wanted to, e.g., glide through them without encountering anything, you totally could. Pretty much everything was optional. (With a couple of scripted exceptions in the game.) It feels like a betrayal to cut down on that freedom in the later games, just because you want to make sure the Player Experience is exactly what your writer designed it to be - no buts, no shortcuts.

[Aeson]

This is my biggest single beef with the changes. Morrowind showed the degree of freedom that is possible. There were still plenty of dungeons, but if you wanted to, e.g., glide through them without encountering anything, you totally could. Pretty much everything was optional. (With a couple of scripted exceptions in the game.) It feels like a betrayal to cut down on that freedom in the later games, just because you want to make sure the Player Experience is exactly what your writer designed it to be - no buts, no shortcuts.

Agreed. Even more so when the player experience they've chosen to design is as repetitive as the Oblivion Gates were.

[factotum]

I've never played the vampire side, so I don't know if there's a conversation you can have with him at some point about that (but I'm not sure when it would happen). Even if he permanently taints the bow, it may still need re-using every day. It would fit the prophecy just as well as your version.

Even if you play the vampire side you're not working for Harkon, you're working for Serana herself, so you still end up killing him. There isn't any way to side with Harkon no matter what, so the only choice the questline really offers you comes down to "Do I want to have vampires or Dawnguard randomly attacking me for the rest of the game?".