A Philosophy of Time and Space

[Scientivore]

A tangent to the current discussion, but one that I think is an interesting interface between plot mechanics and world mechanics.

1.) What happens if one side DOES win? In a world where days are based on turns, what if there's nobody on one side to declare their turn over? Does everything then become stuck in time? Or does everything and everybody just disappear, or reset to a new game start?

2.) Do the world rules allow for the development of a "third" side in this conflict? If Parson can get around his problem with dismissal, can he decide that nobody is right, and set up shop for himself with dissatisfied parties from the others? Would a third player turn manifest itself, or would he be stuck moving during one of the other turns, and what would that say about what side he's really on?

Interesting thoughts coming out of this comic.

Edit: Just thought of 3.) Since the very world physics are based on 2-sided conflict, that would tend to rule out a peace pact as well, though there's probably nothing technically wrong with both sides giving the move order: "We mind our own business this turn".

[snip] Although I can certainly see peace being as natural a state in Erfworld as war (just as it is in our world), but you raise an extremely good point about turn rotation in a conflict with more than two sides! That's a dynamite question, thank you so much! It's possible that it could occur linearly like this: Side1, Side2, Side3, S1, S2, S3, &tc... Aside from that, I really have no idea! I'd certainly like to hear a certain person's take on this... Do I smell brie?

I agree. Time's a strange enough thing in the "Stupidworld" that Parson comes from but I think that it's even stranger in Erfworld. The time between your turns in a multiplayer TBS game is very flexible, expanding and contracting with the number of players and even with the complexity of each player's turn. It would have to be that way in Erfworld too since Move is apparently a measure of distance per day. Charlie referred to the war between GK and the Alliance as "the great western conflict", implying that there's much more to the world. Rob and Jamie are only depicting two turns per day because that's all that matters for the story with only two sides interacting...and it could work that way in Erfworld as a world for the same reason.

The way that I picture it, each capital would be in a group that alternates turns each day because of having units in Move proximity with each other, running simultaneously with the turns of other, separate groups of capitals. If the Tardy Elves ever showed up then GK and the Alliance would experience three turns per day (since Ansom already gave up and dissolved the alliance with them). If all of their alliances were suddenly dissolved then their capitals would experience many turns per day until they moved apart (or croaked each other) and got further away from each other than their Move.

The whole time 'n' space thing is just really weird. In our world, it's been specifically stated that God does not play dice with the universe. Compare that to Erfworld, a big ol' board game, and everything is just beyond our ken.

So let me try and confirm this: What you suggest is that a five-side royal-rumble conflict's day would seem to be a lot, lot, longer than a two-side conflict's on the other side of the continent, even though their days and nights would still sync up due to, I don't know, space and time warping to compensate and keep it synced up? Since Erfworld's citizens don't apparently age, since I've seen no old people, or at least age by the turn, this seems to be a plausible system for their turn-based world. That's really weird, if that's the case, since it means that people who have been constantly embroiled in many-sided battles could have experienced several times the 'actual time' of units that have only been in standard conflicts or at peace for the same number of turns.

And if the day gets really long for all the sides to go, does night warp in a similar fashion or would it matter since there's no action to accommodate?

This should have it's own thread.

Exactly. I imagine Erfworld physics exploiting the subjectivity of time to minimize total subjective time per day. Groupings based on potential for interaction would make each unit's experience of each day as short and simple as possible without affecting outcomes. Each group would be in separate time bubbles, sped up and slowed down relative to each other (from an external, global perspective) in order to have synchronized days.

Since everything that happens at night can all happen at the same time, I picture only the time from sunup to sundown getting the time bubble treatment. Night could always be the same length and happen at the same time for everyone. Of course, if sunrise (and sunset) happens everywhere in the world at once, that implies some funny things about Erfworld's geography and astrophysics.

Another interesting implication of this hypothesis is that if Erfworlders all wanted lots of downtime to pursue their hobbies, maybe they could maximize the world's subjective time per day by each posting field units within Move proximity of units of as many different non-allied capitals as they could find. That way, everyone would experience as many turns per day as the number of non-allied capitals in the world. However many turns they experience per day (N), other people's turns would be N-1 of them, so they'd theoretically create extra time for arts and crafts that way (if they can do things like that on someone else's turn).

Edited to add a newer quote (from the other thread) that I somehow missed:

Maybe time is like in a computer game were the more of your opponents moves you can see the longer your off turn time takes. So if Stanley can see the eastern powers fighting he might have a lot of time after Ansom's turn before nightfall, while Ansom's forces have very little time at between the end of their turn and nightfall.

[Strengfellow]

Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so.

That having been said work expands to fill the time available to it, so Turns will increase to fit the sides available.

For my next tricks I'll prove that black is white, square the circle and find an honest politician.

[Radar]

Another interesting implication of this hypothesis is that if Erfworlders all wanted lots of downtime to pursue their hobbies, maybe they could maximize the world's subjective time per day by each posting field units within Move proximity of units of as many different non-allied capitals as they could find. That way, everyone would experience as many turns per day as the number of non-allied capitals in the world. However many turns they experience per day (N), other people's turns would be N-1 of them, so they'd theoretically create extra time for arts and crafts that way (if they can do things like that on someone else's turn).

They can get the same result simplier: as far as i can tell, there is no time limit for one's turn, so if you need (or want) to take some time, just don't end your turn until you finish, what you are doing. Simple as that.

There is yet another matter, that is quite interesting: what Erfworlders do with their time apart from moving and fighting? Sizemore was learning Flower Power, Bogroll made a decent armour. They obviously don't have to farm or hunt (food rations just pop at the right time; or there have to be some farmers, to make food pop?), so what they do with their time?

[SteveMB]

There is yet another matter, that is quite interesting: what Erfworlders do with their time apart from moving and fighting? Sizemore was learning Flower Power, Bogroll made a decent armour. They obviously don't have to farm or hunt (food rations just pop at the right time; or there have to be some farmers, to make food pop?), so what they do with their time?

Hmmm... IIRC, we've only ever seen rations popping on Stanley's side -- Ansom had some food prepared when Jillian arrived, but no indication of how it originally got there.

(That said, the simplest assumption is that it works the same for both sides, barring some reason to believe otherwise. The fact that Jillian was apparently expecting her recon mission to span multiple turns and doesn't appear to have brought supplies may imply that rations pop in much the same way for Ansom's side.)

[Arameus]

And yet Wanda had to provide her with part of her own meal after her capture. Or do they not pop in prison? I do think both sides' rations pop, though, else Webinar and Dora seem pretty screwed.

The only indication I can see either way about turns being as long as you need is that Wanda wanted Parson to execute his plan as soon as the turn started, implying a need for urgency. However, such a need could certainly be explained by other circumstances.

[SteveMB]

And yet Wanda had to provide her with part of her own meal after her capture. Or do they not pop in prison? I do think both sides' rations pop, though, else Webinar and Dora seem pretty screwed.

The rations that popped on the table were a teapot, a plate of sushi, and a bowl. Most likely, the former two were Wanda's breakfast, and the last was Jillian's "dungeon slop".

My read on Wanda giving Jillian her rations is that it was part of the sympathetic "good cop"/caretaker role she was assuming at that point.

[Arameus]

I see what you mean, taking a closer look. I would probably have surmised this initially, but the rations all appear to be in a straight line in the middle of the table, which suggested to me they were all Wanda's.

So popped rations conform to the situation and person? That's nifty.

[Demented]

So popped rations conform to the situation and person? That's nifty.

I would've figured it was assumed, given Parson's Stupid Meal, as opposed to Stanley's meal(s).

[Arameus]

Yeah, I knew that too, but what surprised me is that it changes dynamically, ie, Jillian in camp might get a juicy steak dinner; in the field, preservable rations or game meat; and in prison, dungeon slop. Niftiness? I think so!

[Radar]

And yet Wanda had to provide her with part of her own meal after her capture. Or do they not pop in prison? I do think both sides' rations pop, though, else Webinar and Dora seem pretty screwed.

The only indication I can see either way about turns being as long as you need is that Wanda wanted Parson to execute his plan as soon as the turn started, implying a need for urgency. However, such a need could certainly be explained by other circumstances.

Wanda wanted Parson to execute his plan quickly, because Stanley was about to change Parson's position from Chief Warlord to a field warlord and send him into a battle or even disband him completly (thus the distraction event - to delay His Toolship).

[Gilthans]

That's a pretty interesting point - but I don't think agree with the relative daytime theory. If a day lasted just long enough for each side to end turns, I think it would have been safe to assume Parson/Wanda would have convinced Stanley to hold his turn long enough for Parson to get a grip on the whole Erfworld mechanics.
If you ask me, the day lasts a certain amount of time, which during war is divided into equal amounts for each army in a conflict (if you think about it well, this isn't unreasonable: there are rarely more than two sides in a conflict that aren't allied. We have already seen that allied forces [Ansom+elves for example] are controlled by the highest level commander, and not commanded each by their respective commanders, creating the need for more turns).
Each side has a certain amount of time to play all his pieces, and if he's done ahead of time, he may 'End Turn', which may have some benefits to the warlord (maybe if you don't 'End Turn' your units don't heal?).
The real question then is about initiative: who plays first? Would it be the defender? And what would happen in the case of several battlefields, say, Ansom attacking Stanley's city while Stanley simulatnously attacks Ansom's city? Or Stanley attacking some other city, while defending from Ansom?

I also think its fair to assume that there are some farmers gathering food for Stanley's forces. Otherwise, there is little point to 'conventional siege': fuedal times teach us that a castle that can self sustain can only be recovered by smashing down the walls.

Oh, and a note about 'God playing dice with the universe': that quote is Einstein's, true enough, but it is his main argument against modern Quantum Physics, which he continued opposing for the rest of his life. Quantum Physics is, so far, the most accomplished physical theory made (in terms of theoretical values matching applied values). It is fair to assume that Einstein was wrong about Quantum Physics (and that God is, in fact, playing dice with the universe ).


Gilth, out

[rosebud]

That's not slop. That's a rice bowl. Also, just because rations pop doesn't mean that people cannot cook. However, you might not want to eat what they cook.

Hey, don't forget that bathing is instant, too. Except "dirt". That is still a manual activity, probably because of its warfare potential.

Anyhow, I'm writing mostly because of the planning and help that happened before the current turn. That was after Stanley's turn and after Ansom's turn. So there is a night that is non-instant.

[Arameus]

Oh, and a note about 'God playing dice with the universe': that quote is Einstein's, true enough, but it is his main argument against modern Quantum Physics, which he continued opposing for the rest of his life. Quantum Physics is, so far, the most accomplished physical theory made (in terms of theoretical values matching applied values). It is fair to assume that Einstein was wrong about Quantum Physics (and that God is, in fact, playing dice with the universe ).


Gilth, out

That's a fancy way of saying we don't know what's going on. Whenever, in the past, we come to a wall in science where it seems to be a dead end with the mechanics being merely arbitrary, we find there's something beyond it. All our atomic theory keeps working that way, anyway. And a lot of people say things about quantum physics, but all that phrase really means is the physics of the most elementary units of everything- something that we currently neither understand nor know how to find out. Whimsy and theory are not the same thing.

As for Erfworld, I doubt that we can decipher anything of value with such limited information. If you consider that so few turns have actually passed in the entirety of the comic so far, we have very little to work with. I'm going to reserve judgment on this, mainly because I think it is irrelevant, albeit quite interesting, and secondly because it's 95% speculation.

I never conjectured that night was instantaneous, but I did suggest it scaled to the day's length, if indeed that were a scalar quantity.

And if that is indeed not Jillian's meal, she apparently doesn't have one. So that wrecks my thoughts on how food works, if nothing popped for her.

[Scientivore]

That's a pretty interesting point - but I don't think agree with the relative daytime theory. If a day lasted just long enough for each side to end turns, I think it would have been safe to assume Parson/Wanda would have convinced Stanley to hold his turn long enough for Parson to get a grip on the whole Erfworld mechanics.

I perceive those as being two separate things. Does the subjective length of a day expand and contract with the number of non-allied capitals that have units close enough to potentially interact? Also, is there a turn clock that automatically ends a capital's turn after a set amount of subjective time, whether or not the overlord is ready? I think that those two questions are independent of each other.

[Pyrian]

In our world, it's been specifically stated that God does not play dice with the universe.

A quote famous for being wrong.

That's a fancy way of saying we don't know what's going on.

That's not true at all. True randomness has very specific and testable statistical consequences. Quantum fluctuations are known to be utterly random to an extremely high degree of certainty. Contrast this with chaotic operations like weather or even turbulence, which are not predictable but also nothing like purely random.

It's impossible even in theory to compelely prove that any random factor doesn't have an undetectable basis ("hidden variables"), however, it is possible to put limits on what that basis can be. The usual suspects for quantum mechanics ("local hidden variables") have been essentially ruled out - such theories are fundamentally incompatible with the predictions of QM, and so far QM has won out. Other suspects ("non-local hidden variables", e.g., the source of the randomness is from another space-time continuum or something bizarre like that) are mostly or completely unfalsifiable (and thus unprovable either way).

Determinism is over, man. Just let it go.

[Arameus]

Sure, sure, and this isn't just the 'Spontaneous Generation' of our time. Remember how certain they were of that, that they even had recipes for how to spontaneously generate? And how it turned out to be because they fundamentally didn't have any clue what they were talking about? Just give it a few years, this will blow over and we'll have moved on to the next big thing that makes no sense. Schroedinger himself did not believe his own research, and believed that his experiments were critically, fundamentally flawed due to science's current misunderstanding of the subject matter.

And I can't help but notice that this has nothing to do with the topic.

I think what I meant to say was that when a turn is in progress, time essentially stands still. Let's say that there are only two sides fighting, for simplicity. When one begins their turn, time holds in early morning. When they act and end their turn, which appears to be something that each side must consciously do, time move forwards to noon or early afternoon. When that turn is ended, the day ends. If you notice on Page 7, the sun appears to sill be about 45 degrees above the horizon, perhaps a little less; it is hard to tell due to the angle. But When Ansom gives the order to prepare to end the turn, the sun sets quite rapidly, touching the horizon just as someone (presumably Webinar) blows the turny-endy-horn Ferdurrp! Ferdurrp! Now I admit that the sun may have been closer to the horizon than I thought, but even at that, if the sky is still entirely blue at the time the sun can't set that fast unless they're making it set that fast by making the day obsolete, bringing on night to herald the new turn in the morning. If this is the case, adding sides would be pretty basic. With six sides, they would each have their turn apparently at about 2-hour intervals. However, the appearance of the day's progression does not actually affect the 'actual' time that passes. Since there is only so many legitimate actions that can possibly take place due to the limited move of units, and other factors I can't think of, the side would eventually simply run out of things they could do and have to end the turn anyway, so taking your sweet time will only get you so far. Talking and planning, along with some other actions (casting? attacking?) don't seem to be concretely limited in the way that move is limited. This is comparable to how in D&D you can only move/attack so many times a turn, but talking is a free action you can do with really no penalty. That's right, take your sweet time delivering that righteously indignant speech before you deliver the main villain his coup-de-gras, he can't do anything about it! It certainly is an interesting thought, at least to me.

Now does anyone have anything to add that doesn't involve real-world quantum physics?

[zillion ninjas]

I wonder how many catgirls have died so far to make this thread possible. Or have their waveforms not collapsed yet?

[Pyrian]

Sure, sure, and this isn't just the 'Spontaneous Generation' of our time.

That began with Aristotle, for chrissakes. Sooner or later it's bound to make a comeback - or are you one of those creationists in addition to denying basic long-established physics?

Just give it a few years, this will blow over and we'll have moved on to the next big thing that makes no sense.

Determinism did blow over. You just missed it, and are stuck in the distant past, like the spontaneous generation guys, still insisting that life just constantly pops into being even as, one by one, the underlying assertions proved false.

Now does anyone have anything to add that doesn't involve real-world quantum physics?

Erfworld is clearly based on a turn-based strategy game. It's quite apparent that turn-end is a deliberate act, just like in a TB game. What's not apparent - and may never become apparent unless someone tries it - is whether there's a time limit to the turns, a rare but not unheard of feature. Without any evidence of its existence, I'm inclined to think that there is not.

[Demented]

[Lots of snobbishisms about spontaneous generation.]

In any other forum I'd think you were being a snorkel... But in the Erfworld forum, that's just class!

[Gilthans]

Comparing Quantum Mechanics to Spontaneous Generation is quite pretentious. While one is (as forementioned) the most accomplished theory currently in existence, the other is a feeble attempt of ancient men to explain things that they didn't understand with scarce proof., while denying the proof to the contrary presented by real scientists. The scientific method has evolved more than a little during the last century, I'd rather believe. There is currently no proof in favour of hidden variables except for the deterministic stubborness of some.

What's not apparent - and may never become apparent unless someone tries it - is whether there's a time limit to the turns, a rare but not unheard of feature. Without any evidence of its existence, I'm inclined to think that there is not.

I'd rather believe it exists before recieving any proof - otherwise, there would be an informational loophole. Parson should have been able to take his time and take an extended course in Erfworld Mechanics
I guess it is hard to discuss this with so few evidence; hopefully more will unveil about turn length in future turns.

[Scientivore]

Erfworld is clearly based on a turn-based strategy game. It's quite apparent that turn-end is a deliberate act, just like in a TB game. What's not apparent - and may never become apparent unless someone tries it - is whether there's a time limit to the turns, a rare but not unheard of feature. Without any evidence of its existence, I'm inclined to think that there is not.

I usually just play TBS games against the computer but I believe that they typically have turn time limits as a standard option in multiplayer. Even chess is frequently played with a turn clock.

[ag30476]

Even chess is frequently played with a turn clock.

Heh...no real player plays chess without a clock...at least not in competition.