El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay I found the "Nothing stops fire!" Line to be incredibly amusing. Also if Raven actually dies here thats going to be traumatic and Pandora is going to go absolutely berserk and will probably be forced to reset.

Still I don't think thats likely. Either Pandora takes the bullet herself for Adrian, Adrian is hurt and Susan has to fight and defeat the other immortals with Pandora power boost or perhaps Diane awakens with Pandora's help with a healing spell of some sort?

[Vinyadan]

I am enjoying how these villains have thoughts that make sense and help the reader understand what's going on, while it's happening.

By comparison, the Goo shouted random menaces around, while Adam explained what he had done with the dream net after he had used it, and the fire monster fight had no explanation whatsoever by the baddies.

It feels much more dynamic, and emphasizes the threats to the characters.

[Lizard Lord]

Okay I found the "Nothing stops fire!" Line to be incredibly amusing. Also if Raven actually dies here thats going to be traumatic and Pandora is going to go absolutely berserk and will probably be forced to reset.

Still I don't think thats likely. Either Pandora takes the bullet herself for Adrian, Adrian is hurt and Susan has to fight and defeat the other immortals with Pandora power boost or perhaps Diane awakens with Pandora's help with a healing spell of some sort?

Pandora takes the bullet for Adrian which, of course, doesn't actually hurt her but the interference would cause her to reset.

[Rater202]

Pandora takes the bullet for Adrian which, of course, doesn't actually hurt her but the interference would cause her to reset.

Same, but no reset: It's only breaking the rules if she thinks it'breaking the rules, and she's guano insane.

If she just happens to be where the bullet is at a certain time, then Scarf has randomly attacked her.

And Voltaire to Tara and Pandora to Emissary have both implied that Immortals can act in retaliation if attacked.

(Tedd just met his Fairy Godmother has yet to meet his Godfather, Dianne and Susan have just learned of their possible (great(s))Grandparent and greater grandparent, and Noah has yet to confess that he sees Raven as a father. I will be might pissed if they don't both come away from this kinda okay.)

[Lamech]

Pretty sure Scarf is gonna hit with that. Also since Immortals can definitely solidify I suspect that he's gonna hit Pandora. I think its also been implied that Immortals can defend themselves.

Whelp I guess we get to see which wins: Magic or Humanity's Toys.

[Ibrinar]

Well he could miss completely and it could be a joke about him never having used a gun before. But yeah unlikely.

[Lizard Lord]

Also I have been racking my brain as to why immortals would have agreed to the rules they have now and came to the conclusion that magic forced them to. My guess is that the very first time magic reset its emmisary told immortals that if they didn't agree to those rules the reset would effect them as well as humanity.

Because, really, is there a single modern day immortal that likes those? I can't see any immortal agreeing to them unless they were forced to, yet they had a majority (if not unanimous) vote on the matter.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also I have been racking my brain as to why immortals would have agreed to the rules they have now and came to the conclusion that magic forced them to. My guess is that the very first time magic reset its emmisary told immortals that if they didn't agree to those rules the reset would effect them as well as humanity.

Because, really, is there a single modern day immortal that likes those? I can't see any immortal agreeing to them unless they were forced to, yet they had a majority (if not unanimous) vote on the matter.

Or they set them up ages ago after a particularly bad immortal caused a lot of havoc. Aka an overeaction to a tragedy that happened just then.

[Rater202]

I think the implication is that Immortals chose the rules themselves.

[eschmenk]

I think the implication is that Immortals chose the rules themselves.

Yes. Pandora was pretty clear that they would have rejected rules that they thought were unacceptable, so the immortals must have decided that the rules they wound up implementing were acceptable.

[Spamotron]

Well it has been established that Immortals will straight up lie in the information they leave their future incarnations. The current Immortals may not actually know the full truth about their restrictions.

[Rater202]

Well it has been established that Immortals will straight up lie in the information they leave their future incarnations. The current Immortals may not actually know the full truth about their restrictions.

Repeat: Immortals only get punished if they 1: Think what they're doing breaks the rules and 2: They did it on purpose.

Immortal doesn't know what arule is=that rule doesn't apply to them.

[Douglas]

Repeat: Immortals only get punished if they 1: Think what they're doing breaks the rules and 2: They did it on purpose.

Immortal doesn't know what arule is=that rule doesn't apply to them.

I'm not so sure. If it were that easy to circumvent the rules, there would be tons of immortals doing it - especially any that reset improperly. I think it works more like this: Immortals get punished if their belief about what they are doing and why breaks the rules. If there's a rule against killing aberrations, and an immortal kills an aberration, what matters is whether the immortal intended to kill an aberration. Whether the immortal knows that killing aberrations is forbidden is irrelevant.

[Rater202]

I'm not so sure. If it were that easy to circumvent the rules, there would be tons of immortals doing it - especially any that reset improperly. I think it works more like this: Immortals get punished if their belief about what they are doing and why breaks the rules. If there's a rule against killing aberrations, and an immortal kills an aberration, what matters is whether the immortal intended to kill an aberration. Whether the immortal knows that killing aberrations is forbidden is irrelevant.

Pandora explicitly says that they have to knowingly and deliberately break the rules or it doens't count.

"Nobody would have agreed to the Laws is they could be tricked into breaking the Laws or break them by accident. The only way to break Immortal Law is to break it intentionally."

This is why she can get away with what she was doing--there's no "spirit" of the Laws, there's just the strict letter and whether you personally believe deep down that you are breaking that strict letter or not.

She also says that there's no debate or Trial, the other immortals just automatically know that you think you've broken the rules and force you to reset.

Besides: Immortals hate Aberrations as a rule. I seriously doubt that they'd have agreed to a rule that forbade them from killing them in situations where they could get away with it.(or you know, acting against them at all.)

[Douglas]

I'm not seeing anything there that refutes my idea. Pandora states that the judgement is based on the immortal's intent. I am merely contending that knowledge or ignorance of the law does not change whether the law applies.

As I understand it, you are saying that if there's a law that says "don't do X" then it's only broken if the immortal's intent included "break that law". I am saying that it's broken if the immortal's intent included "do X".

[Qwertystop]

I think it's reasonable to assume that another property of the rules is that every immortal knows about them automatically, related to how immortals send energy to force a reset automatically. Clearly there's some outside working that can read information about, and send information to, any immortal, outside of the control of any individual immortal; the system wouldn't work otherwise.

[Rater202]

I'm not seeing anything there that refutes my idea. Pandora states that the judgement is based on the immortal's intent. I am merely contending that knowledge or ignorance of the law does not change whether the law applies.

As I understand it, you are saying that if there's a law that says "don't do X" then it's only broken if the immortal's intent included "break that law". I am saying that it's broken if the immortal's intent included "do X".

Pandora explicitly states that if she doesn't belive she's breaking Immortal Law, then she's not breaking Immortal Law.

You have to know that a law exists before you can believe that you're breaking it.

This isn't what I'm saying, this is what the comic said.

[Douglas]

Pandora explicitly states that if she doesn't belive she's breaking Immortal Law, then she's not breaking Immortal Law.

You have to know that a law exists before you can believe that you're breaking it.

This isn't what I'm saying, this is what the comic said.

Regardless, it's probably a moot point since I think Qwertystop is correct - whatever system enforces the laws also automatically informs all immortals of what the laws are, whether they want to know or not.

Really, the main idea I think is almost certainly true is that ignorance of a law is somehow, in some way, not a viable way to circumvent a law. If it were, it would be way too easy to abuse. There's probably some way for an immortal to use magic to remove his or her own knowledge of something specific, and even if there isn't they could just lie about the laws to their next incarnation.

Making it so that ignorance of the laws is simply not possible for an immortal would take care of it quite well, and the means of enforcement seems extremely similar to what would be needed to magically maintain knowledge among all immortals. Plus, it would explain how improperly reset immortals know the laws.

[eschmenk]

Regardless, it's probably a moot point since I think Qwertystop is correct - whatever system enforces the laws also automatically informs all immortals of what the laws are, whether they want to know or not.

Really, the main idea I think is almost certainly true is that ignorance of a law is somehow, in some way, not a viable way to circumvent a law. If it were, it would be way too easy to abuse. There's probably some way for an immortal to use magic to remove his or her own knowledge of something specific, and even if there isn't they could just lie about the laws to their next incarnation.

Making it so that ignorance of the laws is simply not possible for an immortal would take care of it quite well, and the means of enforcement seems extremely similar to what would be needed to magically maintain knowledge among all immortals. Plus, it would explain how improperly reset immortals know the laws.

No, I don't don't think it would necessarily be too easy to abuse. There could be an immortal law against doing anything with the intent to allow you to abuse immortal law. That would keep someone from magically erasing knowledge of the law from their memories. Basically, I agree with Rater202. I think there must be some possibility of immortals having varying interpretations of the law; otherwise Pandora's response seems very odd. That said, I suspect that there could be some some protection against forgetting the laws during a reset. IIRC, certain basic things are always retained during a reset. The laws might have been made some of them.

[Douglas]

I think there must be some possibility of immortals having varying interpretations of the law; otherwise Pandora's response seems very odd.

Of course there is. I have never even hinted that I thought otherwise. The only thing I am arguing against is the idea that it's possible to bypass a law by simply not knowing that the law exists.

[Rater202]

And I was arguing against the idea of a law that Pandora doesn't know screwing her over by pointing out that if she doesn't know about it, she can't break it.

[Douglas]

And both our arguments are satisfied together by the idea that the law enforcement system includes that all immortals automatically know all the laws.

[JavaScribe]

Looks like plan Chaotic Mess went off perfectly.

[Mith]

While I was expecting this result, I hope that more planning went into Pandora's side of things to string enough contingencies together to still keep other things she set in motion going along in desired paths.

[Rater202]

Quick Pandora, swear a vow to never ever forget your friends and family!

[Douglas]

I wonder how quickly Pandora can do a proper reset (or "refresh") while under pressure. She should have about a minute available.

[Forum Explorer]

I wonder how quickly Pandora can do a proper reset (or "refresh") while under pressure. She should have about a minute available.

Do you actually have a source for that number?

[Douglas]

Do you actually have a source for that number?

Any immortal who breaks immortal law has a minute, tops, before they reset!

I expect that Pandora should be at the top end of the range with how old and powerful she is. It has also been established that Pandora has already been preparing for years what she wants to pass on, so there should be very little decision making involved, just the mechanics of it.

[Rater202]

Do you think Pandora doing that counts as a Vow?

...You know what would be the ultimate fake out? If the next comic is just five panels of everyone starring at Pandora in silence and then she's like "Huh, I guess deep down I don't consider Vampires moralt enough to be protected" and we carry one from there.

I'm not expecting that, but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility, knowing Dan's dislike of hurting his characters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...You know what would be the ultimate fake out? If the next comic is just five panels of everyone starring at Pandora in silence and then she's like "Huh, I guess deep down I don't consider Vampires moralt enough to be protected" and we carry one from there.

Zeus has tears in his eyes, though. It makes me feel that he already got the immortal email alert that Pandora broke the rules.

GW