El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Rater202]

I legitimately want someone to die, and this is about as close as I think I'm going to get. A heroic sacrifice that isn't that much of a sacrifice is just a waste of time and a trope I hate. Which is why I stopped reading Fairy Tail, because I could never consider the characters to be in any serious danger, considering even minor characters got Deus Ex Machinas to save them.


I want there to be tension to the action. This whole sequence has been pretty boring to me because I sincerely don't feel like anyone is in any real danger. Pandora getting reset badly would prove me wrong and that would be wonderful.

1: Members of team good guy have been seriously hurt in the past, so tension is in fact there.

2: A comic that is 90% non-violent conflict is probably not what you should be reading if you want a protagonist to die.

[Forum Explorer]

1: Members of team good guy have been seriously hurt in the past, so tension is in fact there.

2: A comic that is 90% non-violent conflict is probably not what you should be reading if you want a protagonist to die.

1. The last time I remember someone being seriously hurt was Ellen way back against the Wizard. And even that wasn't 'serious'. Nanese lost her magic for a while and that's it. It also really doesn't help that the comments make it incredibly clear that Dan is uncomfortable with bad things happening to his characters or even his non-characters. So no, I'm not feeling the tension.

2. There are a lot of fights in this comic. I think more arcs then not have fighting or setting up fights. At the very least, treating fighting as a serious thing. I read it for the non-violent stuff. So whenever we get into an arc like the current one, I sigh in distaste and wait for things to end because there isn't any stakes to it. But there's a good chance Dan might prove me wrong here, so I'm really trying to not get my hopes up.

[Rater202]

So... Anyone think that Zeus is going to elaborate on what Pandora just did?

[Calemyr]

So... Anyone think that Zeus is going to elaborate on what Pandora just did?

Not in much detail, at any rate, but some. "That shouldn't be possible.", "She definitely won't be the same, but she'll be back.", and probably "The other immortals are not going to be happy about this..." Susan, Diane, and Adrian are going to be distraught, and Zeus will take the obligation to assure them that, impossible and problematic as it might be, Pandora will be back in some form. Not the maddened matriarch, maybe, but more herself than any immortal that has ever died. Then they can get to grips with the bombshell Pandora left in her wake. Adrian has a daughter, and it's Diane. The consequences of that are just massive.

All this talk about Voltaire, however, is making me think of Zeus. We may remember Jerry as the kindly old Santa cosplayer whose ultimate move was illusory rabbits, but he was also the fun-loving irreverent little twerp who created the hammer artifact not to stop sexist jokes but to encourage them. (Which makes sense, since I doubt Dan would have made all the "Sarah in a bikini fund" jokes back in the day if Sarah couldn't wallop the boys for it. Without harmless avenue for payback, it's not all that "fun" to misbehave like that.) Zeus is definitely displaying that side of the immortal, but most of the good traits Jerry claimed were part of his "base nature" have been missing.

I think Voltaire is going to bring those traits out, by being the impetus for a kind of change Zeus willl not be comfortable with. "Immortals aren't all cute and cuddly like me. You do not want to see them with the leash removed!"

That said, while I agree with you on the whole "this isn't a story where power matters" thing, I believe Pandora's death is another instance of "Dan regrets his choices". Elliot/Sarah was too easy, Damien was too dark, Edward Verres is too powerful, etc etc. He told us during a Q&A at one point that he will never include time travel in his story because it would just be too cheap, likening it to a reset button. Up until now, Pandora was fine, but, as an unabashed ally, she's become an obstacle. She can answer and fix just about any problem the kids have if she wanted to, and now she's got the motivation to care - they're friends of her family and Sarah in particular is her friend as well. Having a near omnipotent, near omniscient being in their court renders all but the most dire threats moot, and that's not just physical danger. By cutting her down to size, this limits her "reset button" nature but also allows her to fit into the story on a more personal level. More like Hanma, for example, friendlier and less aloof than Pandora has been.

[Rater202]

So... best case scenario is that Pandora somehow backed herself up and is going to upload that into her next self.

Possibly as either a "most but nowhere near all" or "little bit at a time, it'll be awhile before I remember everything but the most important stuff for me to be me is all here" manner, if only to apease you people who think that even restricted Pandora just knows too much.

Also, I can't help but imagine Playful Teenager Pandora randomly boopping various cast members on the nose to announce that she's back.

[halfeye]

Wow. If the ire of Audience Land was enough to force a reset, Voltaire would be done for. Did even Damien get this much heat?

Dan should be proud.

I don't know exactly why, but Voltaire pushes my buttons in a way most villains don't.

In the "Wap!" "Blam!" "Pow!" '60s Batman, I didn't loathe any of the villains the way Voltaire gets to me. It probably is just me, but I certainly feel that way about him.

Yes, good work Dan.

[Rater202]

I don't know exactly why, but Voltaire pushes my buttons in a way most villains don't.

In the "Wap!" "Blam!" "Pow!" '60s Batman, I didn't loathe any of the villains the way Voltaire gets to me. It probably is just me, but I certainly feel that way about him.

Yes, good work Dan.

He's a manipulative asshat who wants to take away everyone's Superpowers for his own selfish reasons, demonstrates sadistic glee, tried to murder a character we've spent the better part of two decades getting to know for the sole purpose of tramautizing the most fragile member of the caste, framed a character who turned out to be awesome so we thought she was an out and out bad guy, and is basically a sociopath.

His response to one of his plans being foiled was to expose someone's secret identity in a crowded mall when all attention was on him, seamingly just to be a ****.

He's basically designed to be hated.

[halfeye]

He's a manipulative asshat who wants to take away everyone's Superpowers for his own selfish reasons, demonstrates sadistic glee, tried to murder a character we've spent the better part of two decades getting to know for the sole purpose of tramautizing the most fragile member of the caste, framed a character who turned out to be awesome so we thought she was an out and out bad guy, and is basically a sociopath.

His response to one of his plans being foiled was to expose someone's secret identity in a crowded mall when all attention was on him, seamingly just to be a ****.

He's basically designed to be hated.

Yeah, but who hates the Joker? one difference is that Voltaire pretends not to be a villain, but I'm not sure even that is all of it.

[Rater202]

Oh my God.

Pandora doesn't screw around.

...And if Every Immortal in the World suddenly manifested and cast the spell,thatum... that's gonna expose magic to a lot of people.

[Vinyadan]

I was kind of expecting something of this sort, because of the "I eradicated werewolves" bit. I was afraid that it could be a way for Sirlek to get destroyed, but it looks like he has ways to survive.

[Calemyr]

I was kind of expecting something of this sort, because of the "I eradicated werewolves" bit. I was afraid that it could be a way for Sirlek to get destroyed, but it looks like he has ways to survive.

Probably the main justification is that he's stored within a "normal" body. Everyone else we've seen transformed their bodies to live "forever", while he just jumps ship when old age strikes. That's far enough off the curve to escape the definition of a genocide spell like that. (The nice thing about Pandora's genocide spell compared to V's is that there is canonically little room for good vampire in EGS. Even those who take that path for good reasons are ultimately corrupted and even those are exceptionally rare.)

That said, Pandora has become an exemplar of one of my favorite sayings: "If you're going to screw up, don't screw around." If one infraction is enough to elicit an automatic, inescapable death sentence, what actually is the motivation to stop there if you've already prepared your biography? Pandora just set a really dangerous precedent.

[Mith]

Probably the main justification is that he's stored within a "normal" body. Everyone else we've seen transformed their bodies to live "forever", while he just jumps ship when old age strikes. That's far enough off the curve to escape the definition of a genocide spell like that. (The nice thing about Pandora's genocide spell compared to V's is that there is canonically little room for good vampire in EGS. Even those who take that path for good reasons are ultimately corrupted and even those are exceptionally rare.)

That said, Pandora has become an exemplar of one of my favorite sayings: "If you're going to screw up, don't screw around." If one infraction is enough to elicit an automatic, inescapable death sentence, what actually is the motivation to stop there if you've already prepared your biography? Pandora just set a really dangerous precedent.

A dangerous precedent that not many will be able to take full advantage of.

[Rater202]

Probably the main justification is that he's stored within a "normal" body. Everyone else we've seen transformed their bodies to live "forever", while he just jumps ship when old age strikes. That's far enough off the curve to escape the definition of a genocide spell like that. (The nice thing about Pandora's genocide spell compared to V's is that there is canonically little room for good vampire in EGS. Even those who take that path for good reasons are ultimately corrupted and even those are exceptionally rare.)

Pandora explicitly said that some Abberations would be out of range or unable to be found by the Spell.

[halfeye]

A dangerous precedent that not many will be able to take full advantage of.

Voltaire for example? we know he's a liar and he wanted her gone, is he the next oldest immortal after Pandora? I bet he's not planning on resetting for a while yet, but he can make it trickier now.

[Calemyr]

Pandora explicitly said that some Abberations would be out of range or unable to be found by the Spell.

Exactly right. I wasn't try to explain why some aberrations survived, however, I was trying to explain why our friend was one of them. Other than trying to avoid the image of Ellen spontaneously combusting and Elliot and Ashley dying in a horrible car crash, of course. Dan is nice like that.

[Vinyadan]

Exactly right. I wasn't try to explain why some aberrations survived, however, I was trying to explain why our friend was one of them. Other than trying to avoid the image of Ellen spontaneously combusting and Elliot and Ashley dying in a horrible car crash, of course. Dan is nice like that.

With Ashley being absolutely unfazed, because of the calm spell.

[Douglas]

Wow. I was not expecting anything on anywhere near this scale. This might be the most significant single magical event in centuries.

My guess for why Sirleck survived is that, thanks in large part to being on the road driving to somewhere remote, he happened to be out of range.

[DavidSh]

You'd think there would have to be some civilian casualties, though. Aberrations operating motor vehicles in traffic, for example, are going to cause crashes. Not everybody will be as lucky as Sirlek.

[Calemyr]

You'd think there would have to be some civilian casualties, though. Aberrations operating motor vehicles in traffic, for example, are going to cause crashes. Not everybody will be as lucky as Sirlek.

The risk isn't that great, surprisingly. Besides their vaunted fiscal responsibility, the undead tend to be proud patrons of public transportation.

[Silva Stormrage]

Wow. I was not expecting anything on anywhere near this scale. This might be the most significant single magical event in centuries.

My guess for why Sirleck survived is that, thanks in large part to being on the road driving to somewhere remote, he happened to be out of range.

We know he survives because both he and Magus commented on the "Giant flash of lights" when Ashley woke up when driving. Those lights were almost certainly the immortals using this spell.

[Douglas]

We know he survives because both he and Magus commented on the "Giant flash of lights" when Ashley woke up when driving. Those lights were almost certainly the immortals using this spell.

...Yes, and I was guessing about an explanation for why he survives.

[Rater202]

He was out of range.

There's no need to guess, Pandora up and told us in narration.

[Yuki Akuma]

He was out of range.

There's no need to guess, Pandora up and told us in narration.

Nope, that's not the reason.

danshive Author[S] 12 points 16 hours ago
Yeah, Sirleck is only in the clear because of how his body snatching works.

[Douglas]

Posted a tad late tonight.

Spoiler

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I think the voice in panels 2 and 3 is the Will of Magic, putting Tedd to sleep in order to solicit unconscious input for what the new magic system should be like.

So yes, this crossed the line, and we are indeed getting the magic reset. It appears that the rules are decided up front, though, so no "setting the rules as she goes along by thinking she's merely discovering them" as some people guessed. And really, if it did work that way there would be the question of how things work while seers are still getting around to "discovering" things, and in particular what "ineligible" seers discover.

Forcing her to sleep and getting the input during sleep is probably, along with the "seers who know about it become ineligible" thing, a safeguard against seers deliberately trying to exploit their role for personal benefit. Bypass the conscious mind so it's a lot harder to go "I'm being asked about what? ...The first rule of the new system shall be that I, Tedd Drew Verres, can do anything I want."

[Rater202]

Posted a tad late tonight.

Spoiler

Show

I think the voice in panels 2 and 3 is the Will of Magic, putting Tedd to sleep in order to solicit unconscious input for what the new magic system should be like.

So yes, this crossed the line, and we are indeed getting the magic reset. It appears that the rules are decided up front, though, so no "setting the rules as she goes along by thinking she's merely discovering them" as some people guessed. And really, if it did work that way there would be the question of how things work while seers are still getting around to "discovering" things, and in particular what "ineligible" seers discover.

Forcing her to sleep and getting the input during sleep is probably, along with the "seers who know about it become ineligible" thing, a safeguard against seers deliberately trying to exploit their role for personal benefit. Bypass the conscious mind so it's a lot harder to go "I'm being asked about what? ...The first rule of the new system shall be that I, Tedd Drew Verres, can do anything I want."

Spoiler

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I still don't think we're getting a magic reset, becuase Dan ins't the kind of author who throws away years of development and he did do an entire NP storyline that was literally justt explaining the spells Ellen has and how they work, which would have been a lot of pointless effort if Magic was going to change and she lost them.

I think the Will of Magic is taking Tedd's perspective on whether or not it should change. I mean,
the emmisary ever said that Magic was fine with being known about as long as only a select few know about it.

Regardless, if Tedd, even subconscious Tedd, is the one deciding the rules.... I can't really see the rules changing.

...Though I have to wonder if this is what was meant when Pandora said that Tedd had the power to shape worlds.

[Vinyadan]

I'd never have understood that that was Tedd, based on images alone.

[Rater202]

I'd never have understood that that was Tedd, based on images alone.

...It's clearly Tedd in FV5, holding the Wand that Pandora gave her, which is enchanted to be able to cast Ellen's FV5 beam spell.

[Rater202]

Apologies for the double post but... is anybody willing to bet that Van is Noriko's other kid?

[Lizard Lord]

Apologies for the double post but... is anybody willing to bet that Van is Noriko's other kid?

Was just about to say that myself.

Also Arthur being one of the seers deciding this doesn't bode well.

[Douglas]

And there's the complication. I did not see that coming, at all, but it has all sorts of potential to be interesting.

I wonder, is Arthur going to recognize Tedd at all? He might have seen Tedd's default male form, and probably knows Tedd has access to various ways to change sex, but he's probably never seen Tedd as a girl and has no reason to expect Tedd could possibly be here. If he'd known in advance that Tedd is a Seer he probably would recognize the similarity between girl-Tedd and the boy he knows, but he apparently didn't even know that Seers exist before just now.

My guess is that Arthur thinks it's exceedingly unlikely that anyone he knows is here, given that the attendees are drawn semi-randomly from the entire world population and there are so few of them.

Apologies for the double post but... is anybody willing to bet that Van is Noriko's other kid?

No need to apologize, "it's been a while and there's something significant and completely new to post" is one of the officially acceptable reasons for a double post, provided of course that other people are in fact posting in the thread so that the lack of an intervening post is just a coincidence.

And yes, Van being Noriko's kid seems likely. Makes me wonder what her reaction to having a second child turn out apparently magically impaired was.

In any case, unless Tedd completely flubs being friendly with Van, they'll likely be allies in opposing anything they don't like about Arthur's suggestions.