El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Calemyr]

The concept of target becomes difficult, when you can just destroy a building full of people. Or an empty building that belongs to someone else. Tedd probably has thought of this.

I guess that the gay guy at the Magic tournament is one of the two seers that were too diligent to come?

Tedd tends to think on a personal level rather than a larger scale. Maybe he's considered indirect consequences of magic, but his focus is on the direct applications of it. If he had his way, a wand of fireball would be useless against a living person and magic couldn't transform a person into a form they didn't want and lock them there. His conversations with his father highlight a tendency not to look for the dark side in his goals.

I don't think Luke (the guy from the card tournament) jumped from knowing next to nothing to knowing more than Pandora in just a... what, a week or so? If so, his date with Justin will be very illuminating. Maybe one of his cohorts, but they seem to be as focused on getting answers as he is, and the second role of seers is a pretty advanced answer to already have.

Edit: Tedd's got a pretty massive blind spot when it comes to magic. Yes, it can make people's lives better, but magic is a reflection of the user. Not Tengu, for example, awakened to some awful spells because he was an awful person. Not everyone is a boy scout like Elliot or a hero like Nanase. The same magic that gives good people such wonderful toys gives bad people the tools to do unspeakable acts, but Tedd doesn't really consider that in general.

[JeenLeen]

I agree Luke's see-magic is his spell-mark, not seer-sense. Also, how it is shown in the comic seems very different from how Tedd explains his seeing magic. Much less subtle. I reckon those unknown 2 are experienced seers who do a lot of magical research (and, since they probably know they are seers since they know what seers can do, but Tedd and his dad seem not to know about seers, probably not anyone we've seen in the comic.)

And, let's face it, Magus already pointed out a massive danger of dropping the masquerade: "You can't have a world with a lot of magic without a lot of monsters. You have tornado sirens, we had dragon sirens."

I wonder if this actually applies, though. When Magus speaks of 'magic', I got the impression he meant magical energy in the air, not the quantity of magic-users. Although the monsters we have seen in the main reality (werewolves*, summons, maybe aberrations**), his reality might have them just form out of the natural/supernatural ecosystem. We really don't know enough if know if his dragons or merfolk are the products of magic-users or a by-product of ambient magical energy, sorta like radiation causing mutant monsters in sci-fi films.

My point being: having magic be more available to folk is not necessarily linked to more 'magic' in the world in a sense that would cause monsters. A caveat I admit being that it would be more likely for some magical mishap (or purposeful malice) to create monsters that can replicate.

Sorry if I got a bit rambling. Not much sleep last night.

*After writing this post, I remembered that although Abraham is responsible for werewolves that split off from his friend, werewolves obviously existed prior to those the Dewitchery Diamond made, since his friend was able to be bitten in the first place. Thus, I guess we don't know if werewolves were made by magic originally or not.
**I still question whether magic is required to become an aberration. Between Scarf undervaluing magic and Raven noting a wizard aberration as more than a normal aberration, I question if magic is needed to do whatever is needed. THOUGH I reckon it's likely something magical is done, even if the aberration itself is not a magic-user.

[Calemyr]

I agree Luke's see-magic is his spell-mark, not seer-sense. Also, how it is shown in the comic seems very different from how Tedd explains his seeing magic. Much less subtle. I reckon those unknown 2 are experienced seers who do a lot of magical research (and, since they probably know they are seers since they know what seers can do, but Tedd and his dad seem not to know about seers, probably not anyone we've seen in the comic.)



I wonder if this actually applies, though. When Magus speaks of 'magic', I got the impression he meant magical energy in the air, not the quantity of magic-users. Although the monsters we have seen in the main reality (werewolves*, summons, maybe aberrations**), his reality might have them just form out of the natural/supernatural ecosystem. We really don't know enough if know if his dragons or merfolk are the products of magic-users or a by-product of ambient magical energy, sorta like radiation causing mutant monsters in sci-fi films.

My point being: having magic be more available to folk is not necessarily linked to more 'magic' in the world in a sense that would cause monsters. A caveat I admit being that it would be more likely for some magical mishap (or purposeful malice) to create monsters that can replicate.

Sorry if I got a bit rambling. Not much sleep last night.

*After writing this post, I remembered that although Abraham is responsible for werewolves that split off from his friend, werewolves obviously existed prior to those the Dewitchery Diamond made, since his friend was able to be bitten in the first place. Thus, I guess we don't know if werewolves were made by magic originally or not.
**I still question whether magic is required to become an aberration. Between Scarf undervaluing magic and Raven noting a wizard aberration as more than a normal aberration, I question if magic is needed to do whatever is needed. THOUGH I reckon it's likely something magical is done, even if the aberration itself is not a magic-user.

You make a lot of sense for typing in your sleep.

Yeah, the word "magic" gets quite the workout in EGS. As an art, as an energy, and as a sentient force. My only real argument against energy is that Moperville is drowning in magical energy, and the only monsters we've seen have been actively imported: summons, aberrations, plane-walking gryphons, and artificially animated slimes. The closest we get are the aberrations and "whales" drawn to the excess energy. If high concentrations of magical energy directly led to monster populations, we should have seen at least one or two naturally occurring monsters in the area. Unless we're suggesting Wolf and Cranium are just that good at their job...

Also, wizards are a rarity compared to mages. Granted, we've got a lot of wizards (Edward, Tedd, Noriko, Van, Arthur, Adrian, and Abraham off the top of my head), but they're supposed to be a rarity. Finding an aberration that's a wizard is probably as rare as finding a mage that's a wizard. That said, I agree that aberrations are probably not exclusively magical in origin, at least in the sense of being mages themselves. There are a lot of paths to dark craft, with just as many outcomes. And I doubt all of them came from pages of dry tomes with drier titles like "Observations on Post-Modern Tribalism", "The Art of the Deal", or "What Happened".

[Vinyadan]

There's "How To Sell Your Soul For Power" http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1258

[Lamech]

You are right in a lot of that, but for your conclusion to be true there would have to be a huge lot of coincidences, the odds against ought to be astronomic, but this is a comic, so it probably will turn out that way.

I wouldn't think so. Super powerful monster hunter lady who apparently wanted her children to be super powerful monster hunters. See: Abandoning Ted over it. So she finds another powerful wizard to help her build a better kid, and BAM! you get a Seer.

[Vinyadan]

I wouldn't think so. Super powerful monster hunter lady who apparently wanted her children to be super powerful monster hunters. See: Abandoning Ted over it. So she finds another powerful wizard to help her build a better kid, and BAM! you get a Seer.

...again.

[halfeye]

I wouldn't think so. Super powerful monster hunter lady who apparently wanted her children to be super powerful monster hunters. See: Abandoning Ted over it. So she finds another powerful wizard to help her build a better kid, and BAM! you get a Seer.

The world population is presumably like ours, billions of people. From that there are three seers and they all have Moperville connections? that would be statistically ridiculous.

Also, Britain is close to Europe, but not technically in it (no political reference intended).

[John Cribati]

That's adequately explained by Magic being some sort ofnimmature drama queen.

[Calemyr]

The world population is presumably like ours, billions of people. From that there are three seers and they all have Moperville connections? that would be ridiculous. Also, Britain is close to Europe, but not technically in it (no political reference intended).

I don't think that's the issue. To be honest, I have doubts that Noriko was ever in love with Edward, just his bloodline. She believed that her genes combined with another powerful wizard's would result in an even more powerful wizard. It worked, but the her means of testing success told her that instead of a super wizard, she'd given birth to a super muggle. So she moved on, looking for another powerful wizard to have her super wizard child with. Naturally, the same logic that made Edward an attractive potential father for her would attract her to a similar match that would lead to similar results since she didn't understand why the first pairing "failed".

Besides, this might be how Adrian ruined Edward's marriage. He said he was encouraging of their careers to a fault, which may have included excited commentary on how two powerful wizards could spawn an even more powerful one. All Noriko needed to do is take that to heart, get disappointed by Tedd, and decide to look for another mage to try again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Besides, this might be how Adrian ruined Edward's marriage. He said he was encouraging of their careers to a fault, which may have included excited commentary on how two powerful wizards could spawn an even more powerful one. All Noriko needed to do is take that to heart, get disappointed by Tedd, and decide to look for another mage to try again.

My problem with all these "Noriko is a heartless bastard who abandons children" is that while she did abandon Tedd, she does not seem to have abandoned Van, so I think we may be putting too much credit on the idea she just sees children as a means to create powerful warriors.

GW

[Calemyr]

My problem with all these "Noriko is a heartless bastard who abandons children" is that while she did abandon Tedd, she does not seem to have abandoned Van, so I think we may be putting too much credit on the idea she just sees children as a means to create powerful warriors.

GW

One failure = try again. Two failures = do something different. We know she was focused on her and Edward's bloodlines, we know she thought they should result in a powerful wizard, and we know she abandoned Tedd so heartlessly that her own sister feels its her duty to look after the boy*. She was a heartless bastard to abandon Tedd and Edward, this just explains her motivations.

It could simply be that her sons are her disappointments and she had a daughter that has proven a badass, so she stuck around. Or it could be that she gave up the idea and just focused on her career of finding and killing every evil creature she hears of. But given that Van's a seer, I don't see a problem with the theory as to why.

[Rater202]

Alternatively, Tedd is freakishly powerful even for a seer and Van didn't instinctively resist the terrifying buzzy wand's spell.

[Douglas]

The world population is presumably like ours, billions of people. From that there are three seers and they all have Moperville connections? that would be statistically ridiculous.

If you assume they're all independently random, then yes. But they aren't.

One of the seers is Tedd. Main character, him being a seer is part of why the story focuses on him, any coincidence there should be disregarded in my opinion.

Another, if speculation is correct, is Tedd's half-brother. It's been explicitly stated that being a seer is an inborn genetic thing, the result of having the right mix of ancestors. Van shares half of Tedd's ancestors and his mother would have deliberately sought someone with similar ancestry for the other half. Given that, it's statistically very plausible for Van to be a seer too.

And third, Arthur. As far as I know, Arthur has no particular connection to Moperville specifically. He is a leader of a major magic-oriented government organization, with jurisdiction over a much larger area. Moperville just comes up a lot for him because of how common magic is there. It should be no surprise that someone as powerful and knowledge-oriented as a seer might rise to such a position.

This combination of seers may be statistically unlikely, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Arthur has no particular connection to Moperville specifically.

I'd say he does: the organization for which he works is HQ'd in Moperville. Which incidentally would be why Tedd also lives there, since his father works at the same company. If anything the "stretch" is that Arthur was Tedd's father's boss, but it's not much of one given that the government centralizes magical enforcement, so any wand-maker and wizard would end up gravitating to Moperville even if they weren't given position of authority.

Put another way: if DGB had been HQ'd in, say, MouthHellVille, that's were the comic would have taken place instead. And Tedd and Arthur would have still lived in close proximity.

GW

[Rater202]

Susan Pompoms was born within 20 minutes of, in the same city and is inexplicably identical to her 14 greats aunt(15 generations at bare minimum since Raven was born Medival times and was nin his 20s when Susan's ancestor was born.)

She just happens to coincidentally live in the same city as her 15 greats grandfather(16 generations, see above.)

Two of five magic using seers in the same town, with a third as a probable blood relation of one of them, is not at all that improbable in comparison. Heck, if it turns out that Noriko is back in Mopperville now and is Greg's new girlfriend and Van is thus also in Mopperville, then you have te right to complain about strange and SOD dispelling coincidences.

[Douglas]

I'd say he does: the organization for which he works is HQ'd in Moperville. Which incidentally would be why Tedd also lives there, since his father works at the same company. If anything the "stretch" is that Arthur was Tedd's father's boss, but it's not much of one given that the government centralizes magical enforcement, so any wand-maker and wizard would end up gravitating to Moperville even if they weren't given position of authority.

Put another way: if DGB had been HQ'd in, say, MouthHellVille, that's were the comic would have taken place instead. And Tedd and Arthur would have still lived in close proximity.

GW

My point is that he's there because the DGB headquarters is there, not because he was born or raised there or has family there. Arthur is in close proximity to Tedd because something related to Tedd gave him reason to move there, not because of pure random coincidence.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah "Noriko is a heartless bastard trying to make STRONK KIDS" is making a pretty big leap of assumptions to me. Seems too.......action anime of a trope for this comic. Like it'd make more sense if Tedd was the protagonist of some action anime about magic where she goes around fighting dudes to prove that she can be the Best Mage Ever, but in a comic like this? not so much.

The discussion between Arthur, Tedd and Van: the argument I can see Arthur making in favor of his position is that Tedd and Van are Seers and are meant to teach people how magic works afterwards, so if their concerns are purely personal then magic just has to agree to keep the capability of casting the spells they want in, while achieving those spells in some other way so that they can simply go to their friends/mom and say "this is how you do this now" and nothing will really change for them.

Which means that Van and Tedd must look past their own personal reasons for wanting magic and look at the bigger picture to truly argue back at him if they really want magic to be revealed. given that Van is a child, its more likely Tedd will have to do so and make the argument for her case: that magic is a good thing that could benefit a lot of people, not just her. Arthur of course will point out the whole problem of magic being dangerous and the more magic being there the more monsters there are. Tedd would have to ask why that happens and what magic can do to minimize that, as well as what the cost is of trying to have lots of magic while minimizing the risks of it.

An interesting discussion indeed.

[Douglas]

Yeah "Noriko is a heartless bastard trying to make STRONK KIDS" is making a pretty big leap of assumptions to me. Seems too.......action anime of a trope for this comic. Like it'd make more sense if Tedd was the protagonist of some action anime about magic where she goes around fighting dudes to prove that she can be the Best Mage Ever, but in a comic like this? not so much.

Then how do you interpret this, and Raven later saying that she left because she decided her career was more important than her family?

It is very clear to me from that comic that Noriko considered her child being a wizard to be very important, and raising a successor seems likely to be an important part of her career plans.

[TaRix]

I have related but different questions:

1) Voltaire has been plotting about this reset, apparently to change the immortals' rules. He knows Tedd's a seer, and repeatedly tries to traumatize him. What is this supposed to accomplish to further his plans?
2) Is Voltaire aware of Arthur's seerhood, and has he conspired with him? He does know about the second, special purpose of a seer; did he manipulate him without revealing anything important? For that matter, might he have disqualified the other two intentionally?
3) Aren't immortals (and Grace (and Noel)) supposed to be unaffected by magic's changing? Pandora had memories of a change, but perhaps it hasn't changed since she was in her last very-long life.
4) The voice's bubble seems to have changed a little, but are they hearing the Emissary talking to them? Would Heka's mantle-bearer get involved in some point?
5) What is Sirleck supposed to be getting out of this caper, anyway?

[Rater202]

I have related but different questions:

1) Voltaire has been plotting about this reset, apparently to change the immortals' rules. He knows Tedd's a seer, and repeatedly tries to traumatize him. What is this supposed to accomplish to further his plans?
2) Is Voltaire aware of Arthur's seerhood, and has he conspired with him? He does know about the second, special purpose of a seer; did he manipulate him without revealing anything important? For that matter, might he have disqualified the other two intentionally?
3) Aren't immortals (and Grace (and Noel)) supposed to be unaffected by magic's changing? Pandora had memories of a change, but perhaps it hasn't changed since she was in her last very-long life.
4) The voice's bubble seems to have changed a little, but are they hearing the Emissary talking to them? Would Heka's mantle-bearer get involved in some point?
5) What is Sirleck supposed to be getting out of this caper, anyway?

1: Presumably, a Tedd that's bitter and broken will be more willing to just burn the system down.
2: We don't know, but since Arthur knows that Magic can change, I won't rule him having been contacted by Voltaire at somepoint out.
3: Only human magic changes, though other magic might change how it reacts to humans--Tedd mentions the possibillity that the TF Gun and other Uryuom enchantments might stop working on humans, for example. We don't really know how this fits into Voltaire's plans, onlt that he wants magic to change, which is why I'mhoping Tedd convincesit to not change or change to be even more like it is now bcuase if Magic Changes or at least changes drastically then Voltaire wins and Voltaire is too much of a **** to win.
4: I belive that they're hearing magic itself talk.
5: He's planning to stab Magus in the back and gain the body of a powerful wizard for his own.

[Douglas]

5: He's planning to stab Magus in the back and gain the body of a powerful wizard for his own.

Not just that, but a body that has no connections to anyone else at all and thus will not be missed and sought after. Sirleck's goal here is to end up in the body of a powerful wizard without giving any powerful enemies a strong motive to track him down. That's why he's holding off until after the Diamond to do his backstabbing.

[JeenLeen]

1) Voltaire has been plotting about this reset, apparently to change the immortals' rules. He knows Tedd's a seer, and repeatedly tries to traumatize him. What is this supposed to accomplish to further his plans?

Although it hasn't been stated in the comic, I have a theory that the rules Immortals have set for themselves can be changed whenever magic resets. Most of this is from Voltaire wanting to change the rules governing Immortals and it seeming that the rules have changed before. I'm guessing Voltaire was hoping that Tedd would be so angry to magic as to try to somehow... well,... something that works with Voltaire's goals. Not clear about that.

I do wonder how much Voltaire knows about the functions of seers. I reckon he knew both functions. Mainly I question if he knew that magic would consider minimal changes to accommodate magic becoming more known. (To me, that such is an option is one of the bigger reveals of the latest comic.)

[Lamech]

My problem with all these "Noriko is a heartless bastard who abandons children" is that while she did abandon Tedd, she does not seem to have abandoned Van, so I think we may be putting too much credit on the idea she just sees children as a means to create powerful warriors.

GW

Why would she abandon Van? She probably doesn't have the scary government issue wand anymore. She probably has more "normal" version now, or learned the spell herself. If she doesn't spook Van, Van won't instinctively resist, and Van will show up as a super-wizard. Arthur is actually in Moperville for the same reason Ted is, more or less. A government agency has collected powerful wizards and mages, then headquartered them at Mopperville. So its sort of a coincidence, but wwaaayyyy less than Susan's!


Also, I think Magic basically has to become more well known now. This was all basically triggered by magical creatures. A griffon is gonna return to Moperville soon. One or more immortals will throw a hissy-fit if magic majorly changes. Ted will throw a hissy-fit if magic majorly changes.

[Douglas]

Also, I think Magic basically has to become more well known now. This was all basically triggered by magical creatures. A griffon is gonna return to Moperville soon. One or more immortals will throw a hissy-fit if magic majorly changes. Ted will throw a hissy-fit if magic majorly changes.

Really, I think Elliot's point is a very strong one that's going to be difficult or impossible to refute. The ubiquitous phones-with-cameras and the Internet to share the resulting videos on are very recent developments and they have already caused enough exposure to make magic want to change. Arthur was expecting the reset to "solve the problem for decades", but I think he was expecting that the new system would have to be discovered through research, trial and error, and accident. With all the world's seers (remember, 5 is just how many of them already know about magic) jumpstarting things with instant knowledge granted directly by the Will of Magic itself, that timescale would be shortened dramatically.

A new set of incidents with videos shared worldwide would likely happen within decades at most, possibly less than a single decade. If even a single seer decides to broadcast his information, it could happen in as little as a few weeks depending on how quickly people can learn enough of the new system to do something obviously magical. Thanks to modern technology a full reveal is inevitable, and on a far smaller time scale than has ever been possible before.

[Qwertystop]

It might not be inevitable, but only if the new rules include something that would inherently cause, enforce, or require secrecy, which seems to be a bridge too far for Magic considering that it supposedly wants secrecy but doesn't already have such rules.

Maybe the conscious desire to do magic, or knowledge of magic, prevents it from working. Maybe magical power is a conserved quantity, so teaching magic to anyone reduces your own power. Maybe mages gain power from surprise, so a careful mage makes sure none of their acquaintances knows about magic (or that they're a mage) so the reveal can run a healing or escape spell in an emergency. Maybe everyone runs off ambient instead of personal power, and it's much sparser than in the current system, so nobody will be able to cast more than a few spells (between everyone) per square mile per day, and big spells mean you need to drain an area into a battery somehow, so anyone with big plans has to prevent all casting in a few towns for weeks ahead of time.

Maybe magic just fries electronics and blurs cameras.

[Calemyr]

Could it be that Lord Tedd is what Voltaire was working towards? That his world is basically what would happen if a Tedd had to make this choice without the emotional support from Grace and Elliot? We know Tedd is developing a lot in the same direction as LT, and Voltaire thought killing Elliot would be the most direct path to achieving his goal. Just a quick thought.

[Gez]

which might mean that Tedd's mother cheated with Susan's father, and they both left to take care of Van in britain, why? well remember, Van's mother is a MONSTER HUNTER. what magic does Susan have? vampire slaying magic. so where would she get that magic from?

Pandora's bloodline.

Man, have you thought about if it were Diane's father?

[Lord Raziere]

Pandora's bloodline.

Man, have you thought about if it were Diane's father?

Annnnndd? I don't care.

bloodlines of immortals is far back enough that its perfectly possible for it to be Susan's father.

[Forum Explorer]

Really, I think Elliot's point is a very strong one that's going to be difficult or impossible to refute. The ubiquitous phones-with-cameras and the Internet to share the resulting videos on are very recent developments and they have already caused enough exposure to make magic want to change. Arthur was expecting the reset to "solve the problem for decades", but I think he was expecting that the new system would have to be discovered through research, trial and error, and accident. With all the world's seers (remember, 5 is just how many of them already know about magic) jumpstarting things with instant knowledge granted directly by the Will of Magic itself, that timescale would be shortened dramatically.

A new set of incidents with videos shared worldwide would likely happen within decades at most, possibly less than a single decade. If even a single seer decides to broadcast his information, it could happen in as little as a few weeks depending on how quickly people can learn enough of the new system to do something obviously magical. Thanks to modern technology a full reveal is inevitable, and on a far smaller time scale than has ever been possible before.

Not really. It depends on the system. There are lots of ways magic could be set up so that secrecy would be required to make it work. Qwerty brought up a few. It can also be limited in not letting literally everyone use it.

[Douglas]

Magic likes being dramatic. That's tricky to combine with secrecy in the era of the Internet when a single event can be broadcast worldwide in moments. Yes, magic could make it so that all spells interfere with cameras, but that's a rather crude patch. Someone would work around it eventually, and the interference itself could draw attention.

It can also be limited in not letting literally everyone use it.

I expect that will be one of the "minimal changes" it makes. Making it require a lot more effort and/or special circumstances to become a magic user would easily accomplish magic's goal of staying rare even after a full public reveal.