afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Darth Ultron]

.X.

My question is about the Feywild (which I think is 4th thing, but my question is simply... does it exist in 3.X in forgotten realms or more precisely in the great wheel at 1374 DR?

Yes, as the Demiplane of Faerie.

[Melcar]

Yes, as the Demiplane of Faerie.

Thank you... Any change I could have a link or some source of where I can find information on this plane?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The Plane of Faerie is briefly detailed in the 3e Manual of the Planes, p. 210-211, and I think there's a bit of information on it in the Grand History of the Realms as well but I don't have my FR books handy. There's not much information on it in 3e and earlier sources, since it was mostly used as a realm where the elves and fey creatures of Toril came from long ago, rather than one they live in "now." Fey are more native to the Material Plane than anywhere else, really, being local spirits of nature often tied to certain areas (like dryads and their trees, genius loci/spirits of the land and their home terrain, the telthor of Rashemen, and so forth), and the "parallel fairy world where mortals go for wacky hijinks" plot could be fulfilled by various other demiplanes and some Upper Planes as much as by Faerie.

When 4e threw the cosmology into a blender and changed everything up, there wasn't really room for demiplanes because now all planes were basically demiplanes (in that they were small self-contained planes without any sort of overarching organization) that had to have a divine realm or afterlife theme in the Astral Sea or an elemental theme in the Elemental Chaos, so they smushed Faerie and the Ethereal together to get the Feywild. That didn't functionally change Forgotten Realms lore all that much aside from the necessary "And by 'Faerie' we now have always meant 'Feywild'" search-replace job (compared to other settings that didn't feature Faerie and fey as prominently in the lore); it just made the Feywild more prominent and accessible than before, in the same way that the Plane of Shadow started off as a demiplane and eventually became a full-fledged Transitive Plane.

So if your question is prompted by wondering if you can use Feywild-related material when running a 3e-or-earlier game, yes, you can basically use the old Faerie material and new Feywild material interchangeably if you fix the names and make other relevant adjustments--for instance, if you weren't aware already, eladrin in AD&D/3e are CG outsiders and the "eladrin" of 4e and 5e are high elves generically and sun and moon elves in Faerun, and the various kingdoms from the Feywild that phased into Toril in 4e and later don't exist (or never existed, or don't yet exist) in 1374 DR.

[Naanomi]

The Plane of Faerie is a Demiplane that drifts around the Chaotic Good parts of the Upper Planes; it has a few Divine Realms for Fey-Gods in it as well.

Evil Fey dwell elsewhere, for example in Pandemonium with The Queen of Air and Darkness (an evil Faerie God)

The 3.5 Planes book talks about a more ‘transitive-esque’ Faerie Plane that is more like the 4e Feywild, but it is an optional Plane (like many others, mostly for worldbuilding) rather than a part of the Great Wheel

[Tzardok]

That "drifting demiplane" is the divine realm of Oberon and Titania which they share with other good fey deities. It's not a plane on its own.

[Naanomi]

That "drifting demiplane" is the divine realm of Oberon and Titania which they share with other good fey deities. It's not a plane on its own.

Ah, I had the impression it contained those divine realms but had some ‘neutral ground’ as well. I’ll be the first to admit I could easily be wrong about that though

[Jowgen]

Is there anything known about the Maug beyond what is written in Fiend Folio? Like, whether they have any kind of special relationship with other planar races or any significant planar conflicts they might've influenced?

[aj77]

Hey Afro! I recently discovered these threads and they've been a lot of fun to read through.

I've been trying to homebrew exemplars for the planes that lack them. They were brought up in the thread recently and you said you had some ideas on them. I was wondering if you'd consent to share? I have ideas of my own but they're rather undeveloped.

[Silva]

Congrats for the amazing thread mr. Afroakuma. I hope you're still around because I have some questions:

1) How does Shamanism/Animism translate to the Great Wheel cosmology? Say, when a shaman is doing a spiritual/vision quest to commune and get counsel from his Totem spirit, where he goes to? (some Dream Plane? some Outer Plane where his sacred spirit lives as a deity?)

2) when the Shaman appeases or convince a Nature Spirit in the material plane to help him, how does this work? Is the Shaman accessing some "plane of Nature Spirits" on the spot? Or Nature Spirits reside directly in the Material in some occult form (maybe in the Ethereal)?

3) It seems, per the Astral Projection spell description, that a Shaman could project itself through the Astral, and then through a color pool to some Outer Plane, where his astral form then solidifies according to that plane's nature and available matter. Does this means the Shaman could transform into, say, an Eagle in Ysgard and help the PC party remotely this way (as long his silver cord isn't severed and this form HP doesn't reach zero)? Is my reading correct? This would be really cool and coherent for the Shaman concept.

Thanks in advance.

[afroakuma]

Hey Afro! I recently discovered these threads and they've been a lot of fun to read through.

I've been trying to homebrew exemplars for the planes that lack them. They were brought up in the thread recently and you said you had some ideas on them. I was wondering if you'd consent to share? I have ideas of my own but they're rather undeveloped.

I'm glad you have been enjoying the threads!

The reason I never proceeded with them is that I came to the conclusion that exemplars for the intermediate planes aren't really a thing that needs to be. Making something imitative of the existing structures doesn't really add a lot to the cosmos, not compared to just concocting something new and weird. Look at Pathfinder, which keeps concocting new tribes of outsider with every Bestiary release.

1) How does Shamanism/Animism translate to the Great Wheel cosmology? Say, when a shaman is doing a spiritual/vision quest to commune and get counsel from his Totem spirit, where he goes to? (some Dream Plane? some Outer Plane where his sacred spirit lives as a deity?)

Ah, Shaman. Quite the uncommon sourcebook to inquire about. That said, I have it here, and the answer it provides as to what constitutes the "spirit world" is this:

Nothing.

There is no Spirit World in the cosmology; shamanism as described in Shaman is kind of a blend of psionics and clerical worship of a concept or ideal, with just a hint of binder in the mix. The faith of the shaman makes it real. The distinction is that the shaman is actually making contact with "imprints" of a sort as part of their practice, giving temporary realness to the "spirit" through their ritual activity. Such imprints may arise from Material Plane contacts with or interactions with any Transitive Plane - the Plane of Shadow, the Ethereal Plane, or the Astral Plane. Note that none of these is the actual Spirit World - there is no such place. The best analogue for it would be the metaphysical "boundary" between the Material Plane and any of these, the liminal threshold.

2) when the Shaman appeases or convince a Nature Spirit in the material plane to help him, how does this work? Is the Shaman accessing some "plane of Nature Spirits" on the spot? Or Nature Spirits reside directly in the Material in some occult form (maybe in the Ethereal)?

Unlike the soul or animus, which is a distinct thing that would go to the appropriate afterlife destination, the "spirit" is a vestigial imprint that does not really exist per se. It is the shadows cast by the thing in life, the marks it left on the world that can be seen across the Ethereal veil, the thoughts and dreams that it loosed into the Astral.

Now of course, colloquially, "nature spirit" can also refer to elementals and fey and even some types of outsider, entities which are not actually "spirits" but rather real beings.

3) It seems, per the Astral Projection spell description, that a Shaman could project itself through the Astral, and then through a color pool to some Outer Plane, where his astral form then solidifies according to that plane's nature and available matter. Does this means the Shaman could transform into, say, an Eagle in Ysgard and help the PC party remotely this way (as long his silver cord isn't severed and this form HP doesn't reach zero)? Is my reading correct? This would be really cool and coherent for the Shaman concept.

For the most part, yes, though astral projection will still produce a body that is "you" on the other side - if you project to Ysgard, you won't be an eagle there unless you are an eagle on the Prime as well.

[Silva]

Thanks, Afro. I suspected that would be the case, in a way.

I ended up finding this book for 3e, which looks like a good effort at reconciling the concept with the Great Wheel (though will probably have it's share of holes, as the cosmology don't seem to have been conceived with animism in mind).

[Jowgen]

The Lord of Lore has graced us with his presence once more, rejoice one and all!

Got a quick one.

Deities and other Powers don't mess with each other because of a collectively enforced gentlemen's agreement.

Mortals can try to mess with deities but the Varakhut actively hunt down those that try.

Are there any sorts of grey areas, exceptions or in-betweens where an entity can actively try to take shots at a Power without the risk of being hunted down by either the Varakhut or a deific lynch-mob?

[enderlord99]

Are there any sorts of grey areas, exceptions or in-betweens where an entity can actively try to take shots at a Power without the risk of being hunted down by either the Varakhut or a deific lynch-mob?

I wouldn't exactly call her a "grey area" or "in-between" but there certainly is at least one. She's only done so once, in retaliation, and it wasn't exactly an attempt to gain more power (that would be redundant) but it was actually immediately lethal and, in retrospect, obvious that it would be.

...

That answer wasn't useful, and if you think it was, you misunderstood it.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Lord of Lore has graced us with his presence once more, rejoice one and all!

Got a quick one.

Deities and other Powers don't mess with each other because of a collectively enforced gentlemen's agreement.

Mortals can try to mess with deities but the Varakhut actively hunt down those that try.

Are there any sorts of grey areas, exceptions or in-betweens where an entity can actively try to take shots at a Power without the risk of being hunted down by either the Varakhut or a deific lynch-mob?

I mean, the Varakhut don't always go after you. The Time of Troubles in Faerun was a ****ing slaughterhouse, and Greyhawk has had at least one mass kidnapping of demigods (they fueled Zagyg's ascension) without so much as a peep from the power of Law.

[Silva]

One more: is there something like a elemental plane of "magic" from where all the mana of the multiverse comes from, and, if so, is it possible to isolate it from an area so magic ceases to work temporarily?

[enderlord99]

One more: is there something like a elemental plane of "magic" from where all the mana of the multiverse comes from, and, if so, is it possible to isolate it from an area so magic ceases to work temporarily?

Paradoxical as this may sound: no and yes, in that order.

[Darth Ultron]

Deities and other Powers don't mess with each other because of a collectively enforced gentlemen's agreement.

I'd say there is no agreement between everyone. Powers do have agreements and allies and such, but there is no Multiuniveral ones.

The basic reason most powers don't mess with another is: it leaves them open to attack from behind. A lot of Powers spend a lot of time (aka eons) trying to get just the right amount of power to mess with another and defend themselves at the same time.

[gkathellar]

Do any of the Outer Planes interact oddly with psionics? If so, how? If it’s possible to answer, even in speculation, why?

2E in particular had some odd planar rules - no illusions in Mechanus, for instance. Is there reason to think that said rules would or would not apply to analogous psionic powers?

In general, what (if anything) differentiates “merely” belief-based phenomena from psionic phenomena on the Outer Planes?

Is there any particular reason (aside from psionics being a subsystem and thus not a high publication priority, I mean) that psionics seems so sparsely represented on the Planes?

[afroakuma]

The Lord of Lore has graced us with his presence once more, rejoice one and all!

Blame Gareth. And Silva, I suppose. Gareth conjured me.

Are there any sorts of grey areas, exceptions or in-betweens where an entity can actively try to take shots at a Power without the risk of being hunted down by either the Varakhut or a deific lynch-mob?

Oh absolutely. Varakhuts do not act against every attempt, and their mandate is more abstract than just "if someone is campaigning to go fight a god, murder them in the face." Similarly, while deities dislike open combat against one another, they're pretty chill about mortals taking a crack at it, provided those mortals will toe the line once they've claimed the godhead for themselves. There are scads of examples of attempted deicide in D&D lore.

Now mind you, it does depend on the methodology. By and large, gods consider it extremely dirty to gun for the faithful of a power, even if they would secretly like to do it themselves - it's the kind of behavior that immediately leaps to a slippery slope. Varakhuts also hate that one. The varakhuts also hate things like what Karsus pulled, where deicide is less the goal than a potential consequence of abrupt cosmic usurpation.

Ultimately, there is no guarantee that a varakhut won't show up to harass you, but history stands clear on this point: attempts have been made in the past, and will certainly be made in the future.

One more: is there something like a elemental plane of "magic" from where all the mana of the multiverse comes from

Nope.

and, if so, is it possible to isolate it from an area so magic ceases to work temporarily?

It is possible to isolate an area from the local source of magic, yes. You see zones like these on Faerun.

Do any of the Outer Planes interact oddly with psionics?

Not specifically. I would surmise that planar traits would treat psionics broadly like magic.

2E in particular had some odd planar rules - no illusions in Mechanus, for instance. Is there reason to think that said rules would or would not apply to analogous psionic powers?

I would expect that those rules would also apply to psionic powers.

In general, what (if anything) differentiates “merely” belief-based phenomena from psionic phenomena on the Outer Planes?

Psionics are very different from belief and faith. Psionic powers are the manifestation of will and intention, and are rarely coordinated between multiple minds. Faith is uncertain, incremental, collaborative, and aspirational.

Is there any particular reason (aside from psionics being a subsystem and thus not a high publication priority, I mean) that psionics seems so sparsely represented on the Planes?

I mean, it isn't, really - many exemplars and other planar beings have historically possessed psionic ability. This does get under-represented in editions that did not have psionics embedded within the core rules, but 1st Edition established that you could engage in a psychic duel with a nonaton, get cooked by a balor's psionic flames, or be mentally contacted by an astral deva. The githzerai and githyanki, both prominent among the planes, are known to be psionically capable. Ultimately, it just depends on where you look - if you're psionically inclined, you will not run out of friends and foes who share your abilities. The relative prevalence of psionic ability on the Prime is, of course, substantially lower than the prevalence of arcane or divine magic, so the notion of psionics as "sparse" on the Outer Planes may derive from its sparseness on this or that world.

[Florian]

I'd say there is no agreement between everyone. Powers do have agreements and allies and such, but there is no Multiuniveral ones.

The basic reason most powers don't mess with another is: it leaves them open to attack from behind. A lot of Powers spend a lot of time (aka eons) trying to get just the right amount of power to mess with another and defend themselves at the same time.

That will depend on which exact cosmology you're using. For example, The Great Beyond (PF, Golarion) uses a lot of "high function divinities", which are basically the embodiment of either a cosmic principle or one of the laws (nature, physics, you name it). You kill the deity mostly known as Pharasma, than that's it with birth, death and the judgment of souls for the whole multiverse. Finito. Because she is those functions - that's quite different from "low divinities", like, say, Thor or such.

(For example, the patron deities of human and snake folk wanted to duke it out, they killed each other and both their races went into decline, empires fell and, the human god being also the representation of prophecy, functional prophecy also died in that game universe. It just doesn't function anymore)

[afroakuma]

That will depend on which exact cosmology you're using.

This thread is Great Wheel cosmology as the default assumption. I will be polite regarding my opinions on Pathfinder fluff and simply note that it has no bearing on matters here.

[tyckspoon]

Oh absolutely. Varakhuts do not act against every attempt, and their mandate is more abstract than just "if someone is campaigning to go fight a god, murder them in the face." Similarly, while deities dislike open combat against one another, they're pretty chill about mortals taking a crack at it, provided those mortals will toe the line once they've claimed the godhead for themselves. There are scads of examples of attempted deicide in D&D lore.

Now mind you, it does depend on the methodology. By and large, gods consider it extremely dirty to gun for the faithful of a power, even if they would secretly like to do it themselves - it's the kind of behavior that immediately leaps to a slippery slope. Varakhuts also hate that one. The varakhuts also hate things like what Karsus pulled, where deicide is less the goal than a potential consequence of abrupt cosmic usurpation.

Ultimately, there is no guarantee that a varakhut won't show up to harass you, but history stands clear on this point: attempts have been made in the past, and will certainly be made in the future.

Put another way, there is a sort of accepted game to divinity, and the rules cover how you're supposed to go about trying to kill or usurp an existing deity and how you can rise to godhood in your own right if you don't want to try ripping it out of the metaphysically steaming body of the god you just destroyed. Stay within those rules and play the game 'right', and if you succeed in killing a god that's just your proper due for playing well. Get caught cheating or trying to act outside the rules, and that's when the various concerned forces of the planes start coming down on you.

[Dalmosh]

Why specifically is Gehenna called "the Bleak Eternity"? Seems like a better fit for Acheron or Hades.

Since Gehenna's mountains are physically finite objects, is there any appeal to Powers in setting up shop
at the very top of Krangoth and Mungoth using teleportation/plane shifting magic, or anything inherent to the Plane preventing someone determined in doing that?

[afroakuma]

Why specifically is Gehenna called "the Bleak Eternity"? Seems like a better fit for Acheron or Hades.

I mean, it's not like it's spelled out anywhere, but I suppose if I had to posit a reason, I would suggest that the simple reason is that Gehenna, unlike Acheron or Hades, makes you feel it. Gehenna is a constant struggle to keep purchase and not topple. It's a struggle to stay up and above, striving without purpose to escape. Forever. Hades, conversely, doesn't care if you feel anything. Neither does Acheron. Gehenna has given you a Sisyphean existence with the caveat that it is possible to progress upward - but there is nothing atop except the molten wrath of Chamada, Khalas, etc.

Sounds bleak to me.

Since Gehenna's mountains are physically finite objects, is there any appeal to Powers in setting up shop
at the very top of Krangoth and Mungoth using teleportation/plane shifting magic, or anything inherent to the Plane preventing someone determined in doing that?

The volcanoes will eventually topple anything from the "top" downward along the slopes. A godly realm can cease its downward flow, and it's certainly possible that an attentive greater deity could maintain a realm at the peak indefinitely, but there's... not really a point to doing so.

[Fable Wright]

In Planescape: Torment, the Night Hag Ravel was Mazed by the Lady for a very long period of time, and eventually became True Neutral. Born in the Grey Wastes, made of incarnate Evil, but that seems to have faded.

Coupled with that, the Demons and Devils in Sigil seem to be less destructive or difficult to deal with than those in their home plane. Does proximity to Sigil and the Spire induce neutrality in outsiders? Does this apply to other planes as well, so the Eladrin held in the Abyss would fall slowly to Evil and the prisoner in Elysium become slowly reformed?

[Florian]

Coupled with that, the Demons and Devils in Sigil seem to be less destructive or difficult to deal with than those in their home plane. Does proximity to Sigil and the Spire induce neutrality in outsiders? Does this apply to other planes as well, so the Eladrin held in the Abyss would fall slowly to Evil and the prisoner in Elysium become slowly reformed?

Not even outsider races are totally driven by their nature and instincts. They have intelligence and can control themselves, if they must (why they don't have to on their respective home planes). The same demon running a shop in Sigil will prolly take a small vacation and go on a murder spree, venting pent up aggro a bit. (Kids, watch out what you Planar Bind....)

[Darth Ultron]

Coupled with that, the Demons and Devils in Sigil seem to be less destructive or difficult to deal with than those in their home plane. Does proximity to Sigil and the Spire induce neutrality in outsiders? Does this apply to other planes as well, so the Eladrin held in the Abyss would fall slowly to Evil and the prisoner in Elysium become slowly reformed?

Well, of course, the less ''destructive or difficult" of all creatures are the ones you'd find in any place of civilization. Every race has it's crazy ones, but also has it's sane ones. Plenty of creatures, even demons and devils, have less extreme individuals.

[Florian]

Well, of course, the less ''destructive or difficult" of all creatures are the ones you'd find in any place of civilization. Every race has it's crazy ones, but also has it's sane ones. Plenty of creatures, even demons and devils, have less extreme individuals.

Yes, the crazy ones are the ones that get sent to Sigil. Who wants to have such an individual on their home plane?

[Efrate]

Most of the Abyss doesn't care if you are crazy. Speaking of the Lady, since I have only a few video games previous to 3e as my older D&D exposure, where does she and Sigil come from? Just a Mary Sue x 1 billion from gygax?

Also, iirc Boccob and Obai-Hai have their realms in the outlands, any reason she tolerates them or visa versa? I can see Boccob studying there, but Obai-Hai seems really out of place.

[Eldan]

Most of the Abyss doesn't care if you are crazy. Speaking of the Lady, since I have only a few video games previous to 3e as my older D&D exposure, where does she and Sigil come from? Just a Mary Sue x 1 billion from gygax?

Also, iirc Boccob and Obai-Hai have their realms in the outlands, any reason she tolerates them or visa versa? I can see Boccob studying there, but Obai-Hai seems really out of place.

She's not connected to Gygax, as far as I know. There's a few theories on her origin, but nothing definite. She's just intended to be a setting mystery. As for being a Mary Sue, the thing to remember is that she never had a statblock. It's relatively certain that she kille one god, keeps other gods out of the city and killed a few other various high powered beings, but we don't know how powerful she actually is. There is at least one building in Sigil (Harbinger House) that she can't see or perceive in any way, she gets tricked a few times, sometimes she doesn't seem to notice things, either.

Apart from that, well, she's not intended to be a Mary Sue, in that sense. Mostly because, in most games, she doesn't do anything. In an actual game, she pretty much should never show up and kill something, that's not what she's for. She's there as a background feature, to explain why the setting exists.

Basically, Sigil is extremely valuable real estate. Whoever controls it can go anywhere and by extension, do almost anything. It would win the blood war, if taken, because it makes all concepts of supply line or fortification pointless. However, it can't be a battlefield, with every power on the planes constantly fighting over it, because it was written as a mostly neutral city, where the players can hang out in a cosmopolitan atmosphere, gear up for expeditions to the planes and have political adventures. So the writers had to write in a reason why the archfiends and similar people aren't here. Instead of just writing "And due to some strange feature of the portals, any creature above power level X can't enter Sigil", they chose to instead make that power that keeps the gods out a person, the Lady. Because it's more interesting.

That's what I mean with background features: she's there to answer a specific question. Like "Why is this planet not a frozen wasteland?" - "It's warmed by the sun" or "Why can't I fly off into the sky?" - "Because gravity holds you down", there is "Why isn't Bel here, wrestling Demogorgon in the streets?" - "Because the Lady keeps them out". And just as most players shouldn't take gravity as a personal insult and make it their goal to kill it (though Kudos if you manage to make that a campaign goal and have it work), the Lady should not be prominent enough in a game that the players want to try to kill her.

As for powers having domains in the outlands: she has nothing to do with the Outlands. Her domain is the city of Sigil and that alone, she has never shown any power over anything outside of it.