Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Beheld]

I still won't accept your reading about Merciful as being reasonable whether or not it be RAW, but that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on I suppose..

It's not RAW either, he literally just lied about what the rules say in the hope you wouldn't read the links.

I wasn't convinced Anthrowhale was right until I started seeing all these numbers. Now I am sure he is correct.

Beheld you are on a sinking ship. Time to move on man.

Beheld: "The game is about more than rolling initiative and full attacking things, and the Fighter fails at all of that, and you ignore it."

Anthro: "But aren't these full attack numbers really impressive when I repeatedly lie about the rules and ignore when you contradict my lies about the rules."

You: "Wow those full attack numbers sure do prove that the game is really only about full attacks."

So a pit fiend sets up what kind of persistent images in the air that provide total concealment (probably it wants to teleport to a flying position 1,000ft + away)? Possibly fogs or some such.
Could work.
However, then
1) the pit fiend then can no longer see Anthrowhale's invisible fighter since it is outside true seeing range as well. It could just vaguely hope to hit the fighter with fireballs in the area. Likely an impasse
and 2) the pit fiend would betray its position when casting fireballs, even from behind total concealment. That is enough, since Anthrowhale's archer has the seeking enchantment.

0) Illusions on the ground or of ground based objects, like trees, also still block line of sight.
1) You can just make an image of "the sky" or "a ceiling" depending on the enviroment.
2) The Pit Fiend can see through his own illusions so he can still see the fighter.
3) The Pit Fiend would fireball and move, thus rendering a "pick a square" guess. Also I don't think fireballing would actually reveal his position at all, since at the very very very very best case scenario, if Anthrowhales metagaming cheating no idea what the spell fireball is fighter metagame cheats to know how fireball works, and sees the bead, he would still only know that it came from a line of indeterminate length behind the image.

Anyhow, the RAW you quoted is correct and that means: Once you see an illusion, you can identify the spell with spellcraft. Because the ability to see is the only requirement for the spellcraft skill to work here.

Again, that is not in fact the rules. I appreciate you want to make up that those are the rules, but they aren't.

[Anthrowhale]

I have not seen evidence this works the way you say it does. As far as I can tell, the section you cited doesn't say non-lethal damage overwrites other damage types.

The evidence is just that 'nonlethal' is treated as a primary exclusive damage type throughout all rule books. Can you find any reference to nonlethal <x> damage where <x> is some other primary damage type? I'm aware of none. Vile in contrast is a type modifier with an explicit reference to vile electricity damage in BoVD.

Particularly with regards to 'nonlethal fire damage', it should be explicitly mentioned in environmental effects if it's a thing, but it is not.

Solar doesn't need armor proficiency to use an armor with 0 ACP (e.g. Mithril Shirt).

That's true. I'm leaving it out for now simply because it is not a part of the monster description. I feel like the range of possible alterations that a monster could have by using it's wealth is ... to large to take into account.

Resist Energy and its ilk I just mentioned for completeness' sake. I still won't accept your reading about Merciful as being reasonable whether or not it be RAW, but that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on I suppose.

With regards to reasonableness, it is "magic". I find myself willing to accept many things when the explanation is "magic", and if we started ruling out all the unreasonable things that are explained by "magic" in the game it's not clear a wizard would be all that impressive a class.

Also, the precombat setup I find is the big thing; caster monsters have more options as do caster PCs of course. But data on one-rounding things is still certainly interesting.

I generally agree that precombat setup matters and for a solo fighter that's tricky and the best answer available is good stealth/spot. In a party, it becomes less of an issue since the party's wizard can handle much of the strategic scouting & transport.

Have you tried Wizard Fighter?

I haven't---seems interesting.

[thelastorphan]

I do think Anthrowhale is right about non-lethal damage. Reading the page and then looking through my own physical colection I cannot find anything thay refers to non-lethal damage with types. Where as other modifiers like flame and frost explicitly add the type to the weapon, non-lethal converts. This is a RAW reading whether or not it is RAI. I will look into PF to see if this is maintained there.

[Beheld]

"If the rules could mean either of these two things, that's proof they mean this one thing and not the other thing they could mean" is a terrible argument.

[thelastorphan]

Its a matter of RAW vs RAI. In this case I think Anthro is right about the RAW it doesnt always make sense but RAW is what it is. Would a sensible GM impose limits on how non-lethal works? Probably. But there is a lot of language among feats and other abilities that support the nonlethal as a seperate type conclusion. Nonlethal substitution being the most clear in terms of the language used. In fact nonlethal substitution looks to me as though it explains RAI and reinforces RAW. That wording was looked over and accepted by the editors. Seems pretty clear cut. And as always Specific trumps General.

[Beheld]

No, it's not a matter of RAW vs RAI. It's a matter that there is no RAW support for Anthro's claim anywhere. It is in fact, more RAW that clubs do non-lethal bludgeoning damage. Because if they already do bludgeoning damage, and the non lethal rules never say they stop doing it (even though Anthro feels the need to lie and say they do), then damage is RAW, still bludgeoning.

Now, the nonlethal rules can be declared consistent with whichever way you want to rule it, but there are no rules anywhere that make one or the other specifically incompatible with the rules.

[thelastorphan]

Nonlethal substitution seems like pretty clear support of Anthro's claim. As does the way other types of damage refer to attacks they modify. Nonlethal is worded differently. All rules text seems to frame it as a seperate kind of damage. I will admit that it doesnt make the most sense but you simply fail to follow the logic in the text. Esspecially with regards to Nonlethal substitution which calls out specifically that all damage is converted to nonlethal. It says spe ifically that a fireball no longer does fire damage. It now does nonlethal. That clearly indicates that it is a seperate type of damage.

[Cosi]

Nonlethal Substitution looks to me like a pretty clear contradiction of Anthro's position. Here's the relevant text:

You can modify a spell with the chosen designator to deal nonlethal damage instead of energy damage.

If non-lethal damage was an override as Anthro suggests, it would just say "... to deal nonlethal damage." There would be no need to say "instead of", because it would be implied. The text only makes sense from Beheld's perspective, which says that nonlethal is an adjective damage can have, and does not inherently change the damage's other adjectives (except, I suppose, lethal).

[thelastorphan]

Except it says specifically that a cireball stops dealing fire damage. If it stops dealing a kind of damage and starts doing nonlethal than its damage type is nonlethal. Not fire. That makes it a damage type. Nonlethal slashing and piercing damage also make no sense. Nonlethal as a seperate type is consistent. How do i stab someone nonlethaly? Or cut? Dealing nonlethal damage only works becaise you are not using the weapon as intended. You are hitting with the flat of the blade or some other tactic. Thats no longer slahing or piercing. It's nonlethal. The text for merciful says all damage is nonlethal. NLS gives us precedent that it overrides elemental damage at least.

[thelastorphan]

Though I do think RAI requires alot of adjudicating. It seems the intention was for most nonlethal to be bludgeoning. Its the most logical.

[Anthrowhale]

I think you can prove that either a) nonlethal is a primary and exclusive damage type or b) nonlethal has two meanings.

Using thelastorphan's quote from nonlethal substitution

... nonlethal damage instead of energy damage.

we see the energy type is explicitly lost. As a consequence, if nonlethal was not a type of damage, a nonlethal fireball would do untyped damage which it surely does not. Therefore 'nonlethal' is a type of damage.

There are some places such as the nonlethal damage section where 'nonlethal' is not explicitly exclusive, hence you could consistently regard it as 'nonlethal and slashing' when a sword is used to inflict nonlethal damage in the same sense that claws deal slashing and piercing. However, under this interpretation the damage applies so long as a creature is vulnerable to either nonlethal or slashing damage so a creature like a construct which is immune to nonlethal but not slashing damage would take slashing damage from a nonlethal sword attack. This is inconsistent with the rules for nonlethal damage and so nonlethal must be exclusive.

It also seems instructive to compare with the rules of Violate Spell (BoVD).

For example, a violated lightning bolt ... deals ... 4d6 points of vile electricity damage (but creatures immune to electricity take no damage).

This says that "Vile" does operate as a type modifier since the provenance (electricity) is preserved in "vile electricity damage". Again, no text of a similar form exists for any mention of nonlethal <x> damage anywhere in all the books of 3.5 as far as I know.... and 'nonlethal' comes up much more often than 'vile'.

[Ivanhoe]

It's not RAW either, he literally just lied about what the rules say in the hope you wouldn't read the links.

By now there are quite a few solid arguments, also from others, backing Antrowhale's interpretation of the merciful enchantment. So far you have not provided any RAW for your interpretation. The fun part is that merciful is an innovative approach, but for a level 20 fighter archer not even necessary, as I have outlined above (edit: with sufficiently high strength bonus, the fighter archer will do enough damage also without merciful and various +1 enchantment boosts like elemental damage).
And I already told you earlier in the thread to please stop this "lying" nonsense.

Beheld: "The game is about more than rolling initiative and full attacking things, and the Fighter fails at all of that, and you ignore it."

Anthro: "But aren't these full attack numbers really impressive when I repeatedly lie about the rules and ignore when you contradict my lies about the rules."

You: "Wow those full attack numbers sure do prove that the game is really only about full attacks."

Analysis on how a high-level character performs is a complex thing. You first need to establish if, in the best of circumstances, a character can contribute at all or will likely win.
Doing enough damage with just one full attack to kill/take out high-level opponents is a good first step for a fighter class.

Then, you have a look at how likely it is for a fighter at high levels to get off full attacks vs the tricks and abilities of his opponents. Here is where we apparently differ.
To sum up, Antrhowhale and me have pointed out various ways to get off full attacks at high levels that overcome appropriate foes:
1) be stealthy enough and have high enough initiative to go first
2) survive losing initiative/being surprised and still doing full round attack with a ranged attack
3) Stun-lock opponent so it cannot get away (high stun DC plus wounding)

Similarly, ways to avoid full attacks even from further away like total concealment have also been found (e.g. true seeing, see invisibility, spellcraft vs illusions - see below).

0) Illusions on the ground or of ground based objects, like trees, also still block line of sight.
1) You can just make an image of "the sky" or "a ceiling" depending on the enviroment.
2) The Pit Fiend can see through his own illusions so he can still see the fighter.
3) The Pit Fiend would fireball and move, thus rendering a "pick a square" guess. Also I don't think fireballing would actually reveal his position at all, since at the very very very very best case scenario, if Anthrowhales metagaming cheating no idea what the spell fireball is fighter metagame cheats to know how fireball works, and sees the bead, he would still only know that it came from a line of indeterminate length behind the image.

0) the same problems outlined before and below apply to ground based objects as a fog in the sky
1) an image of "the sky" is very difficult to achieve. It practically begs for saves since it is static and impossible to align with the real sky from various viewpoints
2) No problem with seeing through own illusions. But the pit fiend cannot see an invisible fighter from outside his true seeing range. That is what I pointed out. So, at best, a stalemate.
3) A fireball (or two) fired through an illusion of a tree, fog or whatever will definitely allow a will save. Then the fighter will see the pit fiend.

Again, that is not in fact the rules. I appreciate you want to make up that those are the rules, but they aren't.

Actually you make up rules here. The rules are crystal clear:
Spellcraft: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell.

The persistent image is already in effect. The fighter is able to see it or detect the effects of the spell. So, with DC 25 he can recognise it. Then it at least allows a save or the save is automatic (GM's call).

Even IF (a big if) spellcraft would not recognise illusion spells, the best a 1,000ft distant pit fiend can hope for is a stalemate - neither side can see each other anymore.
Now in case the pit fiend has to be near its original positioin (for instance, because it wants to destroy a village/guard a gate to the abyss/command its army), it would be at a disadvantage - the fighter would effectively chase it away and keep it at bay.
Or worse, in such a stalemate the fighter could use the superior stealth skills again to sneak up on the pit fiend. When the fighter, again, would have the advantage of initiative and surprise round.
Kiting is good monster tactics, but not in all cases.

And actually as a GM I'd still prefer the pit fiend unloading most of its more powerful abilities in the first rounds of combat than doing lame kiting with 3rd- level spells (that have been shown to not work vs both Antrhowhale's and my stealthy fighters).

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. illusions, I believe Ivanhoe is correct about the RAW since the test of

You must be able to see ... the effects of the spell.

is obviously met. I haven't seen this played out in a game personally but some searching suggests others have applied spellcraft vs. illusions in games. Reading through the FAQ they don't deal with this directly but they do deal with Arcane Sight vs. Illusions where Arcane Sight grants an immediate will save with a +4 bonus. Hence, there is about a 5% chance the illusion is not revealed (spellcraft failure) and a 5% chance that it is revealed but not saved against (will save failure).

W.r.t. Fireball kiting, aside from everything else, the Tiefling Archer is immune to fire because FCII retrofits the Horned Devil with the [baatezu] subtype which directly grants immunity to fire & poison. This is analogous to the Angel subtype and hence as per the "rules of the game" article, immunity to fire & poison is granted by PAO.

W.r.t. Wizard vs. Fighter, it's important to realize that many of the Wizard victories are via Dominate Monster which is typically a more powerful effect than killing an opponent because it's like killing an opponent and creating a potent ally at the same time. There is a danger that a dispel converts ally back into enemy, but aside from that danger it's a great spell. And, Dominate Monster[Tarrasque] is hilarious.

[Cosi]

we see the energy type is explicitly lost.

Which makes your argument wrong. If nonlethal overrode fire, you wouldn't have to say fire was lost. You would deal nonlethal, and then you would not deal fire. The thing you are citing implies the opposite of what you say it does.

is obviously met.

No it isn't. The effect of silent image (and therefore persistent image) is a "visual illusion". Until you save, you are not seeing a visual illusion, you are seeing whatever it is an illusion of.

W.r.t. Fireball kiting, aside from everything else, the Tiefling Archer is immune to fire because FCII retrofits the Horned Devil with the [baatezu] subtype which directly grants immunity to fire & poison. This is analogous to the Angel subtype and hence as per the "rules of the game" article, immunity to fire & poison is granted by PAO.

That's non-core material.

[Anthrowhale]

Which makes your argument wrong. If nonlethal overrode fire, you wouldn't have to say fire was lost. You would deal nonlethal, and then you would not deal fire. The thing you are citing implies the opposite of what you say it does.

I believe the claim is that nonlethal is a damage type modifier in general but that Nonlethal Substitution creates a specific exception where it is a primary and exclusive damage type. I don't believe the argument because:

1. Throughout the rules there are many instances of redundancy so I find nothing exceptional about redundancy here.
2. You are arguing that the game term 'nonlethal' has two different meanings---in other words that editors decided to be purposely ambiguous. This seems much less likely to me than the editors deciding to be a little bit redundant.

Occam's razor suggests the editors were a little bit redundant and there is only one definition of nonlethal.

No it isn't. The effect of silent image (and therefore persistent image) is a "visual illusion". Until you save, you are not seeing a visual illusion, you are seeing whatever it is an illusion of.

Err? You certainly don't see a real piano when Silent Image makes a piano---instead you see an illusion of a piano. The illusion may fool you or it may not, but in all cases, you can't play the piano.

That's non-core material.

We have used rules as they are modified by the remainder of 3.5 throughout this discussion, including instances where that was detrimental to the fighter. Revisiting this now seems unreasonable.

[thelastorphan]

The counter point to your argument cosi is that other damage types call out when they are additive. Such as vile.

[Beheld]

We have used rules as they are modified by the remainder of 3.5 throughout this discussion, including instances where that was detrimental to the fighter. Revisiting this now seems unreasonable.

No, I offered once as a boon to allow a non core rule, and you took that to mean you could dumpster dive every 3.0 and 3.5 splatbook for cheats.

And I'm not sure why you are counting "even when that was detrimental to the fighter" since the one time you are counting, 1) The core rules also say that. 2) You still ****ing cheat by claiming you can use your bow as melee weapon and it gets all the bonuses that it explicitly doesn't get as a melee weapon as a melee weapon.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. Wizard-as-fighters:

1. A Choker form seems useless since you can't wield weapons. You could imagine layering on Polymorph or PAO, but these appear nerfed. PAO reduces Intelligence and both of these don't allow outsider forms to be taken. The best case scenario I could find in core is something like Polymorph[Fire Giant] granting Str 31, Dex 10, Con 21. You have 6 attacks/round (Choker, Haste, 4 iteratives with Tenser's Transformation). Instead though, you can Shapechange[Titan] and get 5 attacks/round (Haste, 4 iteratives w/TT). A Titan has a +6 to hit and deals about +12 more damage per hit which just ends up being more.
2. Maximize[via rod] Time Stop + Shapechange[Titan]+Improved Invisibility+Haste+Tenser's Transformation makes a pretty potent fighter doing about 1% to 25% more damage than the archer fighter against the range of ACs under study. Unfortunately this is an illusion though because melee weapons in core do not have the capability to change their alignment and/or damage type. As a consequence, you either end up having a golf bag of minimally enchanted melee weapons or eating through damage resistance the hard way, particularly against tough opponents. For example against DR 15, the Titan Wizard only does 80%-97% of the archer damage. You might be able to extract slightly more damage from a careful use of power attack, but it's only slight since when damage/hit is >40 decreasing the probability of a hit by 5% does not compensate for increasing damage by 2.
3. Using Maxmized[via Rod] Time Stop + Shapechange[Balor]+Improved Invisibility+Haste+Tenser's Transformation and then using the feats of a Commoner Archer makes a fairly potent archer doing about 96% of the damage of the Tiefling Archer. While this is potent the cost is basically all the general purpose feats. There may be some trick to further increase damage output but I'm not clear on what it is. Alternatively, we could keep the feats of the SoD wizard and simply use the approach (with a few compromises for the cost of weapons). The result is about 67% of the large Archer.
4. Another approach is to invest in cheap magic weapons that hit hard. The obvious choice here is +1+Spell Storing[Vampiric Touch] which, when combined with Quick Draw does quite a bit of damage. For the Shapechange[Titan] wizard this hits pretty hard, making a wizard able to do ~3% more damage than the Tiefling archer, even through DR 15. Furthermore, you can probably afford 5 Adamantine, 5 Silver, and 5 Cold Iron gargantuan warhammers so the DR problems are reduced. Obviously there are drawbacks---you only have a few rounds of weapons until self-disarming and pumping out enough Vampiric Touch's to keep weapons loaded over a day's adventure seems challenging---you might easily need 20/day. (And, if you want each weapon to be +5, which is great, you need another 15 spells/day.) Needing to retreat from a fight would obviously suck since many magical weapons would be left behind.

I've personally always regarded Tenser's Transformation as a trap for a wizard since they lose the ability to cast spells, but the above shows that Wizard fighters are potent with significant investments in feats/wealth/spells. It also shows the Tiefling Archer is in the ballpark for what a Wizard fighter can do damage-wise. I was surprised to see that wizards don't have much in the way of significant tricks for damage beyond Shapechange/Improved Invisibility/Haste/Tenser's Transformation, which is rather similar to PAO/Blink+Seeking/Boots of speed/Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Ah, Choker was just for buffing so you double the efficiency of your buff turns. This way you can Quicken Time Stop and attack with the turn; Pouncing Charge in case of surprise (Red Slaad and Leonal have biped Pounce - which of course gets fairly ridiculous with a mount and a two-handed Lance and Power Attack, particularly with investment to Spirited Charge). You can then turn into any form, two-hand a weapon you Greater Magic Weapon'd (certainly makes no sense to spend gold on a weapon), Greater Heroism, Greater Invis, etc. it up and hit the face. Transformation isn't a great spell but if your plan is to beat face, it's kinda necessary - the only other option is Divine Power, which takes resources to replicate in Core unless you allow for the Shapechange/Polymorph reading that replicates spellcasting (probably RAW since it defaults to natural ability, but also stupidly busted beyond belief). It's actually not that problematic if you have Shapechange since with the spell you can replicate most of the basic utility like Astral Projection, Greater Teleport, etc. without needing to cast. I think a Wizard interested in this sort of thing should get Power Attack though, since it's trivial to get next to the target with Quickened whatever. Also assuming Inherent bonuses are applied through transformation, you can get slight Strength bonuses there; a total of 54 with +5 inherent, +6 item (though admittedly that costs a lot of XP but XP is a river).

EDIT: Hm, you can actually also share all the buffs with your familiar, though it's hard to give it Power Attack. I can't think of a combat form with it as a bonus feat, so much of your to hit on it will be wasted (attacking flat-footed thingies while Greater Invisible and buffed to high heaven easily makes your to hit overflow). Still, it can deliver another reasonable pummeling in the same timeframe.

EDIT#2: Realistically speaking, Mind Blank is more important than Greater Heroism so you'll probably lack those bonuses, but I guess you could dismiss it during buff rounds and cast GHeroism if you wanted the extra numbers. Though the spell does little without Power Attack anyways, but I suppose we can grant that.


Quick math gave me:
Titan Wizard
+5 Huge Greatsword (by RAW the Wield Oversized is limited to Greatclubs, which suck so much a Huge Greatsword is better)

47 Str (just Tenser and Shapechange)
20 BAB
+4 Greater Heroism
Flat-footed Pit Fiend
+1 Haste

20 + 18 + 5 + 4 + 1 - 2 size = +46 to hit

4d6 + 27 Str + 5 Weapon - 15 DR = 4d6+17 (19-20/x2)

PA for -11, attack at +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 vs. AC of 32. Damage is 4d6+39 (19-20/x2)

This averages 233 damage, followed by non-PA number of 162 from the familiar for a total of 395. This was the minimal investment (just buff spells, no items and 1 feat). I believe the Charge-numbers are significantly better but I'd have to calibrate this program to first do multiplication and then account for damage reduction to easily calculate that. And it takes 3 feats anyways describing a somewhat dedicated build instead of this dabbler doing it with just spells here, so that's a different matter; it might work on 20 but it won't for much of the character's career.

[Anthrowhale]

...

The element that I did not incorporate here is the familiar. I need to think of about it a bit to understand whether this is a reasonable mainline tactic or a desperation tactic (the familiar hp are so low...).

I also updated the Tiefling archer build in a few ways.

1. I nerfed the Pit Fiend's GDM[Bow] tactic by paying to make the bow permanently invisible. This was a suggestion from Florian many pages ago. W.r.t. Ivanhoe's other suggestions, the ring of counterspells does not work when the bow rather than the creature is targeted and the rod of absorption is both expensive and needs to be in hand.
2. To pay for this, I needed to scavenge some gp so I downgraded to Constitution+4(enhance) and Wisdom+4(enhance) which also freed up the cash for the Pale Green Ioun Stone (Ability/skills/saves/attack+1(competence) and an improved armor class.
3. Ivanhoe's spellcraft trick seems to be valid by RAW, so I incorporated that as well.

The net effect is that the Pit Fiend seems to have no per-day or at-will abilities that seriously threaten. Wish[Antimagic Field] remains a very dangerous option.

[Anthrowhale]

Ah, Choker was just for buffing so you double the efficiency of your buff turns. This way you can Quicken Time Stop and attack with the turn;

I'm not following this---a choker form can't obviously cast spells unless they are Silent and likely Still as there is no evidence they can either speak or do the right fine manipulation for spellcasting with tentacles.

If we want to go with Time Stop, Maximized Time Stop seems superior since you get a predictable 5 rounds, and w.r.t. actions you can just forgo your 5th round of actions to delay until Time Stop ends.

Pouncing Charge in case of surprise (Red Slaad and Leonal have biped Pounce - which of course gets fairly ridiculous with a mount and a two-handed Lance and Power Attack, particularly with investment to Spirited Charge).

I'm not following here as well. Can a Red Slaad or Leonal wield weapons? I'm skeptical about the 'any outsider can wield a weapon' hypothesis---they have the feats but it's not clear they have physical body necessary. Since weapons are super cheap and more effective than claw attacks the fact that they are not a part of the MMI entry suggests they cannot wield the weapons.

Also assuming Inherent bonuses are applied through transformation, you can get slight Strength bonuses there; a total of 54 with +5 inherent, +6 item (though admittedly that costs a lot of XP but XP is a river).

My understanding is that inherent bonuses do apply, but the cost of +5(inherent) to Int and +5(inherent) to strength and a greater rod of maximize/quicken starts to add up very quickly. Going off the build sketch I made for the SoD wizard, there is about 82K to play with before you start impacting core functionality (and that's assuming you aren't scribing extra spells into your spellbook). I'm also skeptical about wishing for inherent bonuses yourself, because you can never afford 5 wishes in immediate succession as needed for a +5 inherent bonus. I guess you could store up scrolls, but that's even more expensive than the Tome approach. Since we are avoiding WBL cheats, the full cost of the inherent bonuses is accounted for regardless.

EDIT: Hm, you can actually also share all the buffs with your familiar, though it's hard to give it Power Attack. I can't think of a combat form with it as a bonus feat, so much of your to hit on it will be wasted (attacking flat-footed thingies while Greater Invisible and buffed to high heaven easily makes your to hit overflow). Still, it can deliver another reasonable pummeling in the same timeframe.

I'm somewhat wary of the familiar approach because (a) it means that you can't move without nerfing the spells on the familiar and (b) the damage the familiar can absorb when things go wrong (as they often do) is pretty limited. My hypothetical old gray elf wizard has constitution of 18=16-2(race)-3(age)+1(inherent)+6(enhance) granting 132hp on average, so the familiar has 66hp, AC 34 (with Mage Armor), Fort 25, Refl 9, Will 12. Improved Evasion helps with the Refl save and a shared Mindblank helps with the Will save, but low hp means we should think of this tactic as something costing 4K xp whenever something goes wrong.

EDIT#2: Realistically speaking, Mind Blank is more important than Greater Heroism so you'll probably lack those bonuses, but I guess you could dismiss it during buff rounds and cast GHeroism if you wanted the extra numbers. Though the spell does little without Power Attack anyways, but I suppose we can grant that.

My math says that it's 249/round vs AC 32 with PA 11 & Greater Heroism and 212/round vs AC 32 with PA 8 with and 170 with no PA. Putting out 340-419/round (depending on options) is formidable. There are 4 caveats:

1. When coming out of Time Stop, the best you (and the familiar) have is a standard action before the monster acts.
2. The Familiar's low hp are risky as discussed above.
3. AC 32 is typical for CR 16 opponents but obviously it goes quite a bit higher.
4. You are trapped until Tenser's wears off w.r.t. further spellcasting.

W.r.t. drawback (1), I think there is a better approach than Time Stop available, at least against enchantment-vulnerable opponents (i.e about half). The basic idea is to walk around in Balor form (True Seeing, spot+8, Dex 25) and after winning initiative use fly 90'(good) to move closer and cast Irresistible Dance. This gives multiple rounds for you and the familiar to crank out damage. You can obviously use the time to buff more if desired, but merely using "Win initiative, Extended Irresistible dance, Tenser's Transformation, Shapechange[Titan]" is pretty effective since you get a minimum of 3 full attacks and the Familiar has a minimum of 4 (3 with TT). Going through our abstract combat, this means that the "not taken out with probability 1" list drops to: Dread Wraith, Death Slaad, Marut, Hound Archon Hero, Greater Stone Golem, Nightwalker, Planetar, Nightcrawler, Balor, Tarrasque, Solar. (The Balor is a special case---you want to avoid Death Throes impacting the familiar.) Of these, the Archer is looking better against Dread Wraith, Death Slaad, Marut, Hound Archon Hero, Greater Stone Golem, Nightwalker, Planetar.

W.r.t. drawback (4), it seems like a contingency (dispel magic) might be viable. It can be triggered as a free action and autodispels TT.

[khadgar567]

New threat time guys we are out of pages

[Eldariel]

I'm not following this---a choker form can't obviously cast spells unless they are Silent and likely Still as there is no evidence they can either speak or do the right fine manipulation for spellcasting with tentacles.

Choker speaks Undercommon and given it can climb and grab obstacles and its entry speaks about hands and the picture (this one) shows opposable thumbs and fingers and it's described as quick and agile, I don't see many grounds to claim it reasonably couldn't speak or manipulate objects and do hand gestures with sufficient manual dexterity. It's not that big either way, of course.

If we want to go with Time Stop, Maximized Time Stop seems superior since you get a predictable 5 rounds, and w.r.t. actions you can just forgo your 5th round of actions to delay until Time Stop ends.

But it leaves you with a full-round action to full attack which is key.

That's fine if the ruling is accepted but given Time Stop is apparent time rather than real time and doesn't change your initiative, I wonder if you can delay action. You can ready action but that's just a standard action; Quickening is clear in that it leaves you with the surprise action standard action (which you can Pounce with) or full-round actio

I'm not following here as well. Can a Red Slaad or Leonal wield weapons? I'm skeptical about the 'any outsider can wield a weapon' hypothesis---they have the feats but it's not clear they have physical body necessary. Since weapons are super cheap and more effective than claw attacks the fact that they are not a part of the MMI entry suggests they cannot wield the weapons.

They are biped and have opposable thumbs (Leonal here, Red Slaad can't post since not OGL but it has them too in MM1) so I don't see why not. Also, e.g. Leonal's natural attacks include Rakes and Improved Grab and are treated as various things for overcoming NA - that in part vindicates picking them over basic weapons. Red Slaad is low HD enough that a real argument could be made for the natural weapons being preferable anyways. And monsters aren't optimized in the first place (see all these discussions; many could be improved even with mundane gear); I don't think them not using optimal equipment proves that they're unable to. Rather, I'd assume they don't want to, though of course with their extraordinary attacks tied to their natural weapons it might not even be optimal for them. But that's a moot point, none of the Outsiders in the books tend to use equipment in an optimal way; few enough have any armor even though basically all could use a simple Mithril Shirt or a 750gp Wand of Mage Armor, let alone weapons, Potions, or such. Even Solar has +5 Greatsword and +2 (??) Bow even though it can just cast Greater Magic Weapon and...well, yeah, the book is full of really stupid things the monsters have and do. So I don't think a choice not being optimal can be held as credible evidence.

My understanding is that inherent bonuses do apply, but the cost of +5(inherent) to Int and +5(inherent) to strength and a greater rod of maximize/quicken starts to add up very quickly. Going off the build sketch I made for the SoD wizard, there is about 82K to play with before you start impacting core functionality (and that's assuming you aren't scribing extra spells into your spellbook). I'm also skeptical about wishing for inherent bonuses yourself, because you can never afford 5 wishes in immediate succession as needed for a +5 inherent bonus. I guess you could store up scrolls, but that's even more expensive than the Tome approach. Since we are avoiding WBL cheats, the full cost of the inherent bonuses is accounted for regardless.

If you get a Pearl of Power IX, you can cast 5 Wishes naturally on level 19. You can do it naturally on 20, on 19 with 36 Int in any case. And going from 19 to 20 costs 29k XP so you can afford 5 Wishes before the level-up. 18-19 is also 27k so it's within the parameters.

That said, I agree it's expensive and I probably wouldn't look to use it outside Int and perhaps Dex. You can go as high as +40 Initiative with Pit Fiend at 27 Dex under +6 enhancement and +5 inherent for a total of 38 (+14) Dex. +18 with Improved Initiative, +19 with Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +21 with Moment of Prescience (assuming Orange Prism Ioun Stone) - as Initiative is a Dex-check and I'd argue it's opposed.

I'm somewhat wary of the familiar approach because (a) it means that you can't move without nerfing the spells on the familiar and (b) the damage the familiar can absorb when things go wrong (as they often do) is pretty limited. My hypothetical old gray elf wizard has constitution of 18=16-2(race)-3(age)+1(inherent)+6(enhance) granting 132hp on average, so the familiar has 66hp, AC 34 (with Mage Armor), Fort 25, Refl 9, Will 12. Improved Evasion helps with the Refl save and a shared Mindblank helps with the Will save, but low hp means we should think of this tactic as something costing 4K xp whenever something goes wrong.

Since Shapechange gives you both any forms, you can just ride your familiar until you need to full attack. As for HP, Empowered False Life helps a bit (average 23.25 EHP) but realistically you can both act as Astral Projections thanks to Nightmare which makes you much safer.

This does also open up the way to just making a mounted charge with a lance instead of full attack. You get double damage even without feats so it should be fairly efficient. Leonal has 27 Str making for 31 with Tenser's, 33 with +6 item. 38 if you go all the way. Either way, your To Hit is sufficient that your doubled damage should do serious damage and you can use the Time Stop to position yourself for a charge. I wonder if we could build it so that you don't need Tenser's reducing the need for spell use and making it more economic to kill enemies with just Shapechange and your base stats when you can. I'm pretty sure you can - it feels like an overkill to use a spell for each CR 20 thing you personally kill even if you aren't having your underlings do it for you (though we could also see what we can do with the underlings; Polymorph Any Object is a rather formidable all-day buff and you can equip them with +5 magic weapons and Haste them at least - even basic Undead get a tad more scary after that).

My math says that it's 249/round vs AC 32 with PA 11 & Greater Heroism and 212/round vs AC 32 with PA 8 with and 170 with no PA. Putting out 340-419/round (depending on options) is formidable. There are 4 caveats:

1. When coming out of Time Stop, the best you (and the familiar) have is a standard action before the monster acts.
2. The Familiar's low hp are risky as discussed above.
3. AC 32 is typical for CR 16 opponents but obviously it goes quite a bit higher.
4. You are trapped until Tenser's wears off w.r.t. further spellcasting.

W.r.t. drawback (1), I think there is a better approach than Time Stop available, at least against enchantment-vulnerable opponents (i.e about half). The basic idea is to walk around in Balor form (True Seeing, spot+8, Dex 25) and after winning initiative use fly 90'(good) to move closer and cast Irresistible Dance. This gives multiple rounds for you and the familiar to crank out damage. You can obviously use the time to buff more if desired, but merely using "Win initiative, Extended Irresistible dance, Tenser's Transformation, Shapechange[Titan]" is pretty effective since you get a minimum of 3 full attacks and the Familiar has a minimum of 4 (3 with TT). Going through our abstract combat, this means that the "not taken out with probability 1" list drops to: Dread Wraith, Death Slaad, Marut, Hound Archon Hero, Greater Stone Golem, Nightwalker, Planetar, Nightcrawler, Balor, Tarrasque, Solar. (The Balor is a special case---you want to avoid Death Throes impacting the familiar.) Of these, the Archer is looking better against Dread Wraith, Death Slaad, Marut, Hound Archon Hero, Greater Stone Golem, Nightwalker, Planetar.

W.r.t. drawback (4), it seems like a contingency (dispel magic) might be viable. It can be triggered as a free action and autodispels TT.

Well yes, Irresistible Dance is great and an autowin vs. anything that isn't immune to mind-affecting if you get an action and get it through the SR. I would expect Mind Blank and the items granting it to be popular enough among high level monsters that I wouldn't rely on it though, but it's there. I think Irresistible Dance is great to have access to if you're with Enchantment open but you'll probably be okay even if you don't.

I'd much rather use my Contingencies on more generic defenses. You still have Shapechange so even under Tenser's you have access to most important spells like Greater Teleport (Archons), Plane Shift (Bebilith), Astral Projection/Etherealness (Nightmare), etc. This is the full list of Su but there's of course also the Extraordinary options. Also, you could keep switching from Nightwalker to Night Wing (even Nightcrawler if you used Beads of Karma with your Shapechange) and keep calling undead each turn. You can call once/turn and switch, and they'll arrive in 1d10 rounds and serve for 1 hour - easy to calculate that you'll amass quite the legion over your Shapechange. Of course, that's quite broken again so perhaps shouldn't go there - limit to 1/Shapechange instead of 1/form or something.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see many grounds to claim it reasonably couldn't speak or manipulate objects and do hand gestures with sufficient manual dexterity.

I agree---I had missed the undercommon. A Choker form should be able to cast spells.

That's fine if the ruling is accepted but given Time Stop is apparent time rather than real time and doesn't change your initiative, I wonder if you can delay action. You can ready action but that's just a standard action; Quickening is clear in that it leaves you with the surprise action standard action (which you can Pounce with) or full-round actio

Apparent time isn't terribly well defined, but my operating assumption is that it is contiguous with real time w.r.t. the caster. (And if you share spells, for a familiar as well, although the familiar operates in it's own Time Stop.) Hence, you can delay across the end of Time Stop just as per normal time, but the way you entered Time Stop (via quickened spell or whatever) is irrelevant.

They are biped and have opposable thumbs

Biped is important in the sense that it means you keep your items. Looking closely at the pictures both Leonal and Red Slaad hands look quite clumsy for holding weapons and neither entry refers to hands. This is purely a question of DM fiat, but I'm inclined towards 'no' here personally. I do agree that lack of use of weapons is not a completely convincing case.

If you get a Pearl of Power IX, you can cast 5 Wishes naturally on level 19. You can do it naturally on 20, on 19 with 36 Int in any case. And going from 19 to 20 costs 29k XP so you can afford 5 Wishes before the level-up. 18-19 is also 27k so it's within the parameters.

I'm not following---you need 19K xp to advance from 19th to 20th level.

That said, I agree it's expensive and I probably wouldn't look to use it outside Int and perhaps Dex. You can go as high as +40 Initiative with Pit Fiend at 27 Dex under +6 enhancement and +5 inherent for a total of 38 (+14) Dex. +18 with Improved Initiative, +19 with Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +21 with Moment of Prescience (assuming Orange Prism Ioun Stone) - as Initiative is a Dex-check and I'd argue it's opposed.

I've thought about Moment of Prescience for initiative before---and I'm inclined towards "no"---initiative is not explicitly an opposed check even if it operates in many ways as one. You can get slightly better than +19 by adding in a luckstone to make it an even +20.

It's also possible to achieve Init+20 without body swapping. Halfling/Elf can get 18+2(race)+2(reduce person)+5(levels)+5(inherent)+6(enhancement)=Dex 38.

Since Shapechange gives you both any forms, you can just ride your familiar until you need to full attack. As for HP, Empowered False Life helps a bit (average 23.25 EHP) but realistically you can both act as Astral Projections thanks to Nightmare which makes you much safer.

Both of these help significantly although the combination of

leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation

and operating solo is worrisome enough that you may want a potent minion to guard your body---possibly your familiar.

I'm pretty sure you can - it feels like an overkill to use a spell for each CR 20 thing you personally kill even if you aren't having your underlings do it for you (though we could also see what we can do with the underlings; Polymorph Any Object is a rather formidable all-day buff and you can equip them with +5 magic weapons and Haste them at least - even basic Undead get a tad more scary after that).

The idea here is to use Animate Dead to create a large Zombie then PAO(lasting a week?) it into a Horned Devil and trick it out with equipment? You'll need to use Dominate Monster to maintain control, but that's relatively ok in this scenario since a dispel probably takes out the PAO as well. It seems like a reasonable approach although the low to-hit makes them marginal.

I'd much rather use my Contingencies on more generic defenses. You still have Shapechange so even under Tenser's you have access to most important spells like Greater Teleport (Archons), Plane Shift (Bebilith), Astral Projection/Etherealness (Nightmare), etc. This is the full list of Su but there's of course also the Extraordinary options.

This is a good point that I hadn't fully appreciated. All the necessary escape mechanisms are already available via shapechange.

Also, you could keep switching from Nightwalker to Night Wing (even Nightcrawler if you used Beads of Karma with your Shapechange) and keep calling undead each turn. You can call once/turn and switch, and they'll arrive in 1d10 rounds and serve for 1 hour - easy to calculate that you'll amass quite the legion over your Shapechange. Of course, that's quite broken again so perhaps shouldn't go there - limit to 1/Shapechange instead of 1/form or something.

Right, I wouldn't go there.

With regards to forms, I think you should consider Balor as combat expertise from the Titan. It doesn't do as much damage as Titan (Str 35 vs. 43) but you get a much higher AC from the dexterity.
Similar, you can consider Marilith to be Power Attack from the Titan. You are weaker but can use 6 hands on an appropriate weapon as per savage species rules, dealing Strength bonus x3.5 damage. Getting True Seeing and spot+8 in both of these forms also seems helpful.

I spent some time thinking about avoiding embarrasment from the ECL 20 wizard vs 4 EL 16 encounters. Let's throw out anything that is taken care of by:

1. Wail of the Banshee (you can memorize 4)
2. Heightened permanency symbol of persuasion.
3. Things that can only hit you 5% of the time for negligible damage.

Let's further assume freedom of movement, evasion, foresight, shapechange, mage armor, see invisible, mindblank, and statue are up. What remains? The tough ones seem to be:

9 Gray Slaad: Spot+15, See invisibility, Hide+16, Immune Sonic, Magic Circle, Chaos Hammer(6)
6 Devourer: Spot+18, True seeing, Undead, Ranged Touch+8(negative level)
6 Retriever: Spot+0, Construct, Ranged Touch+8(Fort 18 or Petrification)
6 Dread Wraith: Spot+25, Undead, Incorporeal, Lifesense, Touch+16(7+Fort 25 or 4.5 con)
4 Kolyarut: Spot+11, Construct, Ranged Touch+10(2.5 negative levels!)
4 Colossal Monstrous Scorpions: Spot+4, Fort+25, Melee+34(21,21,15+poison)
3 Beholders: Spot+22, Hide+12, Antimagic, Disintegrate(Fort 17)+Finger of Death(Fort 17)+Flesh to Stone(Fort 17)
3 Ghaele: Spot+16, See Invisibility, Incorporeal, Greater Teleport, Magic Circle, Death Ward, True Seeing, Ranged Touch+13(11,11)
3 Lich Wizard 11: Spot+12, Hide+15, Undead, Enervation, Disintegrate, Teleport, Mirror Image, Haste, Vampiric Touch, Magic Missile (17)
3 Mummy Lord: Spot+18, Invisibility Purge, Undead, Slay living (Fort 20)
3 Death Slaad: Spot+22, See Invisibility, Hide+24, Immune Sonic, Magic Circle, Finger of Death (Fort 21), Implosion (Fort 23)
2 Nightwing: Spot+25, See Invisibility, Hide+24, Undead, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, GDM@17, Summon Undead, Hide+24, Touch Attack+18(Magic drain)
1 Marut: Spot+16, True Seeing, Construct, Greater Dispel Magic@14, Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Mass Inflict Light Wounds (10)
1 Nightwalker: Spot+29, See Invisiblity, Hide+26, Undead, Greater Dispel Magic@21, Improved Disarm +26, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, Unholy Blight(6), Haste, Summon Undead
1 Greater Stone Golem: Spot+0, Construct, Immune Magic, Melee+42(31,31), AC 27

[Eldariel]

Far as Leonal and Red Slaad go, I don't really see much of a reason to precent their equipment use, but that is of course just as well. It's still an advantageous charge form but without Lance you are probably better served just full attacking enemies in Titan form or whatever when that's an option (if you start turn as a Titan, you can full attack and then end of turn take some defensive form like Hellwasp Swarm, Dread Wraith or Pit Fiend/Balor). I generally prefer Dread Wraith as an allday form since being inside objects is a great defense (undead immunities, incorporeal, decent stats) and it has some nice senses. Though Construct immunities and magic immunity would be nice too (at least Outsider forms give you SR) - but Incorporeality too good to pass up on.

Raw highest initiative is probably Elder Air Elemental with 33 Dex. Whether or not it can use equipment is up in the air but Ioun Stone or simple Cat's Grace pushes it to 40-42 Dex. +6 item would be 44. But I'd say initiative is generally less important than surprise and not having to roll in the first place.

You should project from a relatively safe place; (Extended) Magnificent Mansion (or simple Rope Trick) is a good option that's practically impossible to find or enter. You have Mind Blank and Invisibility active, Su Teleport (and Plane Shift if desired) and enter the Mansion; practically impossible for anyone to get there. But you can always have a Contingency on your main body to whisk you away to another place if a hostile occurs. Or slam the place full of symbols and snake sigils and such - or keep objects with those things (hidden, easily revealable) on your person, replicated by Astral Projection.

Many of those encounters can be handled by just flying and using ranged attacks like Dragon breaths, Enervation Rays, Su ability spam or such. I'll get to more detail with better time.

[Anthrowhale]

Raw highest initiative is probably Elder Air Elemental with 33 Dex. Whether or not it can use equipment is up in the air but Ioun Stone or simple Cat's Grace pushes it to 40-42 Dex.

This article suggets that assuming air elemental form implies a loss of items. Hence you end up with an all-day 40 Dex (33+5(inherent)+2(ioun stone)) implying an initiative of +20 (Dex+15, Ioun Stone+1, Feat+1). You might possibly be able to get the +1 from a luckstone as well.

You should project from a relatively safe place; (Extended) Magnificent Mansion (or simple Rope Trick) is a good option that's practically impossible to find or enter.

There is a fundamental issues with this strategy.

...the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation.

Most people ignore this bit of the rules, but it seems raw correct to say that you can only revive if your body is on the Material Plane, not in an extradimensional space.

Many of those encounters can be handled by just flying and using ranged attacks like Dragon breaths, Enervation Rays, Su ability spam or such. I'll get to more detail with better time.

The obvious objection to flying is that many encounters happen indoors.

Looking through the encounters, there is one that troubles the archer: 9 Gray Slaads. The burst-effect Chaos Hammer with See Invisibility against the [lawful] subtype is pretty dangerous and it's unlikely the archer can knock out more than 4 of the Gray Slaads, even with surprise (or 3 without). I don't see a good counter at the moment other than hide.

[Eldariel]

Far as Projection goes, that's probably just some of the Prime-centrism of the rules (the core rules are woefully inadequate for anyone but medium humanoid primates); that said it's fair enough if you wish to argue RAW prevents using Astral Projection for anything but equipment multiplication, traveling and such. Though you could read it as returning to your body with the material plane just being a definer for the expected location for it; but if the body isn't on the Material, you'd still return to it wherever it is. I guess you could just go deep inside the earth with Earth Elemental form or something and then make a hole with Disintegrate or something and use Projection from there but admittedly you'd still at the technical risk of someone finding you in spite of your Mind Blank, even if the likelihood is incredibly small. One Contingency might be able to make it safe enough to not worry though.

Far as Polymorph rules, there are few versions of those around. Lords of Madness gives the Aberrations magic item slots, Savage Species has some suggestions and there are many online articles on the topic too so hard to say anything definite; it's more or less a DM choice for nonhumanoid forms generally, though the forms with slots spelled out would likely retain items in those slots.

Far as those encounters, I think Shapechange can handle those more or less. Let's start:

9 Gray Slaad: Spot+15, See invisibility, Hide+16, Immune Sonic, Magic Circle, Chaos Hammer(6)

Dread Wraith Wizard easily gains the initiative and first strike indoors by scouting from inside walls. I'd expect the Wizard has superior vision control outdoors as well, though that does of course depend on a great variety of things including if the Wizard cast Greater Prying Eyes that morning or not. The masses of animated objects potentially wielded by Grey Slaadi could be a bit of a thing; I don't expect the animated objects hit any ACs but depending on the numbers and the types they can hit touch AC with some combat maneuvers (not in incorporeal forms of course) but the short duration ultimately enables waiting them out as Slaadi lack Permanency. The value of AOE depends on positioning.

If they're bunched up, an Adult Brass Dragon's cone of sleep gas has DC 27ish Will-save (10 + 20 HD/2 + Con mod [19 + 6 item if Belt can be worn by Dragon]) runs about a 85% chance of sleeping each of the Slaads for 1d6+6 rounds. An alternative approach would just be to come near inside walls, turn into a Balor/Titan/whatever (perhaps with Familiar? Depends on positioning) and wreck face. Beholder form would enable firing up to 6 SoDs (12ish with Familiar - Disintegrate/Finger of Death/Sleep/Flesh to Stone/Fear/perhaps Telekinesis/Charm Monster) and then opening the antimagic eye to prevent retaliation if we're talking tight corridors - the value of this option depends on the Charisma. Bodak has the death gaze, which could work depending on positioning and Charisma, but I would assume the other options are more valuable if less immediate. Bodak is more of a clean-up form where you just repeatedly apply death gaze of new Bodak (or something similar) to your enemy.

Aboleth/Formian Taskmaster would enable Dominate-based approach but lacking AOE that's largely inferior for dealing with arrays of hordes. An interesting alternative approach would be Androsphinx Roar (together with familiar) from behind some obstacle; 500'-250' distance is quite potent. Depending on how the enemies can escape, you might be able to just Roar them to submission and clean up with martial forms.

6 Devourer: Spot+18, True seeing, Undead, Ranged Touch+8(negative level)

Hard to say who gets the advantage in detection as Lifesense can't detect these but if they have stored lifeforce, it could detect that instead. Prying Eyes would work though, if leaving the enemy alert as well. Undead forms protect you from most of their stuff (though the Control Undead can be a bit dangerous, even if you should make the save on 1). Perhaps a Construct-form is the better choice. Marut, Iron Golem, perhaps some of the Nightshades could be the natural form for taking these out; again you should probably use equipment. Iron Golem and Marut seems to be practically immune to anything a Devourer can do between the DR, construct immunities and magic defenses, and fully capable of beating them into submission. If need be, Wizard can plop out Haste on the Marut form though of course, Iron Golem is immune and whether you can lower your own immunity is a DM-dependent matter (though RAW does exist of course).

6 Retriever: Spot+0, Construct, Ranged Touch+8(Fort 18 or Petrification)

A basic high-end Outsider form should be able to trounce this encounter. I'd probably use Solar or Pit Fiend to ensure the access to regeneration, though that leaves it down to not rolling nat 1s while you kill them. Alternatively Beholder-form would offer reasonable offense; Disintegrate destroys a Retriever with fairly high probability and antimagic eye protects from the rays. Construct-forms might have the resistances but the Fort-save might be seen to affect objects. It's possible to use a form with constant invisibility such as Invisible Stalker, but that does not of course prevent it using its rays blindly with the potential of hitting by accident. Will-o'-Wisp would be nigh' immune to everything Retriever does (Mind Blank covers Find Target) but its damage is kinda pathetic and killing them would take forever. Of course, just casting Greater Invisibility in Pit Fiend or whatever form would be a nigh' certain victory, but that's using a 4th level spellslot for some trash. Angels are immune to petrification so perhaps using Solar or Planetar is the most efficient means.

6 Dread Wraith: Spot+25, Undead, Incorporeal, Lifesense, Touch+16(7+Fort 25 or 4.5 con)

Well, they can't seriously harm the Wizard in Dread Wraith form and not at all in e.g. Iron Golem or Marut form so it's just a matter of finding a form that can in turn hurt them. This is a bit tricky since they have no reason whatsoever to surrender themselves to open fight nor to attack enemies who they can't hurt. Earth Elemental could fight inside stone but is not immune and most incorporeal creatures have trouble affecting one another. Using some high level magic (Time Stop to Disintegrate some walls revealing them then attacking them) would probably yield victory but it would be rather costly. The safest form to use for combat with them would again be something like a construct with a sword as they're completely incapable of harming it, but getting to them when they don't want to be caught is quite the hassle. They're rather potent creatures even higher up so perhaps it might worth the effort to try and Command Undead them instead of killing them. A pack of friendly Dread Wraiths is always nice.

4 Kolyarut: Spot+11, Construct, Ranged Touch+10(2.5 negative levels!)

Its scary parts are useless vs. the defensive Shapechange forms and martially they are not even on the same planet with golem forms or such. Two hasted Iron Golems would make short work of them but even if it's not game, Marut's edge is quite sufficient as well (I recommend wielding a Greater Magic Weaponed Greatsword with Haste - speeds up hacking through significantly). Opening up with Beholder and Disintegrating one would be fine but the Enervation Rays are a problem - risking nat 20 and losing levels is pretty meh even if you have a 95% chance of them missing thanks to AC-boosting forms and Dex. Could use Mirror Image and Displacement to further enhance the probability of them missing I guess. Balor x 2 can slice them up quite swiftly, but without Death Ward or similar effect I would suggest against it - Statue doesn't by RAW give you construct immunities and they could just ready actions to enervate you when you turn it off anyways. Balor using spells might be the best option for being efficient though Marut two-handing a +5 Greatsword can put reasonable hurt on them (3d6+23 per hit at +26/+21 or +27/+27/+22, with +4 damage and +3 hit if strength bonus item is used; +3 damage, +2 hit if Bull's Strength is cast instead).

4 Colossal Monstrous Scorpions: Spot+4, Fort+25, Melee+34(21,21,15+poison)

This is trivial; incorporeal forms are immune to everything they do and e.g. Allip makes Wis-draining them easy.

3 Beholders: Spot+22, Hide+12, Antimagic, Disintegrate(Fort 17)+Finger of Death(Fort 17)+Flesh to Stone(Fort 17)

The Wizard should be able to go first. Ironically just turning into Beholder (according to LoM they can have 1 Headband, 3 Eye-slots, 3 Amulets, 1 Belt, 1 pair of Bracers and 3 Rings so you retain a reasonable amount of stuff) allows very probable annihilation of all 3 Beholders, particularly if both, you and the familiar do it. And the save DCs aren't that bad. Though depending on their position, e.g. Dragon-form, could knock them all out with very high probability if they're reasonably close together. If they do get to act, the antimagic eye is annoying as is the risk of rolling multiple nat 1s.

3 Ghaele: Spot+16, See Invisibility, Incorporeal, Greater Teleport, Magic Circle, Death Ward, True Seeing, Ranged Touch+13(11,11)

Their HP and saves are very low, so even accounting for their all-day buffs, a breath weapon is probably a solid choice if they can all be hit. Beholder might work as only Finger of Death is actually a [Death] effect from the SoDs. The Cleric-casting can certainly throw some wrenches into the works.

3 Lich Wizard 11: Spot+12, Hide+15, Undead, Enervation, Disintegrate, Teleport, Mirror Image, Haste, Vampiric Touch, Magic Missile (17)

Lots of variables, hard to call, probably warrants the use of magic, Disintegrate is a good spell choice (they're immune to Polymorph so PAO doesn't work) and it may be worthwhile to use Disjunction. Magic Missile harassment is annoying but you have Shapechange so you should get the drop on them and you can always cast Shield before you actually engage in combat. Otherwise you'll have a reasonable array of immunities but definitely, depending on their spell list, contingencies, familiars, planar bindings, animated dead, etc. this can be quite the operation though you're clearly stronger. Finding the phylacteries to prevent retribution is its own minigame afterwards but with Wizard's divinations you're well setup to it. This is a fight where I wouldn't blame you for using 9th level spells though.

3 Mummy Lord: Spot+18, Invisibility Purge, Undead, Slay living (Fort 20)

They can't really do much aside from their undead. Again, something like Marut or Iron Golem is basically immune to all their stuff and you can just go to town. Disintegrate and PAO work against them but Beholder Disintegrate isn't enough and using that form is too risky. You should probably settle for beating them to bloody pulp in some Construct-form. Young Adult Gold Dragon hits them for 82 damage accounting for their vulnerability to fire, but given they probably have fire resistance from a spell that's likely not enough. Yourself and your familiar breathing would suffice though provided you can catch all 3 of them in the breath area. It's worth noting that e.g. Balor, Solar and Pit Fiend all have such a high SR that the Mummies' spells are unlikely to work offensively and their non-magical offense leaves a lot to be desired.

But cleaning up 40 HD of undead can be a bit of a hassle that takes quite the while and they may be able to escape with Plane Shift or such. Wizard can trace them and use non-resource chasing powers with Shapechange but it could take a while.

3 Death Slaad: Spot+22, See Invisibility, Hide+24, Immune Sonic, Magic Circle, Finger of Death (Fort 21), Implosion (Fort 23)

Hm, interesting. Animated Objects at will means a fair number. Implosion is limited as is most of their stuff so attacking in incorporeal forms could work but they do have Chaos Hammer. Relentless assault from within the ground would probably eventually bring them down with them having little counterplay if in cramped spaces; their readied Chaos Hammers and Fireballs seem unlikely to be able to keep up. But if forced to face them airbound, just using some disabling breath weapon is probably again the easiest plan.

2 Nightwing: Spot+25, See Invisibility, Hide+24, Undead, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, GDM@17, Summon Undead, Hide+24, Touch Attack+18(Magic drain)

Any creature with the option of summoning Dread Wraiths is annoying. Polymorph Any Object works here and a full Disintegrate has a reasonable chance of taking it down or at least to single digits. Again just fighting in a construct or undead form keeps you reasonably safe as it can't really do much aside from magic draining (but that seems limited to items you won't have magical ones of anyways). It does some damage so you might want to use a spell though. It can just Plane Shift away if you can't kill it though.

1 Marut: Spot+16, True Seeing, Construct, Greater Dispel Magic@14, Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Mass Inflict Light Wounds (10)

Martially Balor or Pit Fiend-form should be able to take this down and its GDM is unlikely to affect you. It's slow and clumsy but as it's fairly good at escaping, Dimensional Anchor/Dimension Lock may be warranted. You can probably Disintegrate it - Beholder averages 91 damage so it only takes a bit more (it will fail the save with almost certainty). If you cast Disintegrate from your own slot (or PAO), it's 95% likely to go down to PAO and your 40d6 is very likely to take it down as well.

1 Nightwalker: Spot+29, See Invisiblity, Hide+26, Undead, Greater Dispel Magic@21, Improved Disarm +26, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, Unholy Blight(6), Haste, Summon Undead

Just PAO it or Command Undead it; you can win the fight with just Shapechange forms but it can Plane Shift away and it has too much HP to be killed by Beholder Disintegrate with any reliability.

1 Greater Stone Golem: Spot+0, Construct, Immune Magic, Melee+42(31,31), AC 27

Faced indoors it's quite annoying but Pit Fiend or Solar form two-handing should be able to overcome it without putting oneself at risk; regeneration and damage reduction work hand in hand to mostly negate its damage. The Will-saves are tough but you can probably beat it even Slowed. Frankly, I'd probably just turn into a Beholder and Disintegrate it into a hole it can't get out of instead of wasting time killing the thing though (if you really want to, you can breath weapon it to death afterwards since immunity to magic doesn't protect it from physical attacks). It's just a golem. I've actually had to kill one of these as a dual-wielding Dervish once and god did it ever take forever.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Construct-type lacks the Greatsword proficiency. Well, you can actually afford the penalty though getting a simple weapon with GWM is also fine.

[Anthrowhale]

Far as Projection goes, that's probably just some of the Prime-centrism of the rules (the core rules are woefully inadequate for anyone but medium humanoid primates); that said it's fair enough if you wish to argue RAW prevents using Astral Projection for anything but equipment multiplication, traveling and such. Though you could read it as returning to your body with the material plane just being a definer for the expected location for it; but if the body isn't on the Material, you'd still return to it wherever it is. I guess you could just go deep inside the earth with Earth Elemental form or something and then make a hole with Disintegrate or something and use Projection from there but admittedly you'd still at the technical risk of someone finding you in spite of your Mind Blank, even if the likelihood is incredibly small. One Contingency might be able to make it safe enough to not worry though.

My inclination as a DM is to use the RAW to limit the power of a very powerful spell (and, indeed, it remains very powerful even if you can only use it from the material plane). For the Earth Elemental/Disintegrate/Mindblank combo, you probably want a necklace of adaptation or something similar to obviate the need for air, and the use of Mindblank limits your Astral Projection time to 2 days or less. This isn't much of a restriction but it might come into play if exploring into the deeper layers of some planes.

Far as Polymorph rules, there are few versions of those around. Lords of Madness gives the Aberrations magic item slots, Savage Species has some suggestions and there are many online articles on the topic too so hard to say anything definite; it's more or less a DM choice for nonhumanoid forms generally, though the forms with slots spelled out would likely retain items in those slots.

Yeah, it seems like a DM judgement call unless/where it is specifically spelled out in a book.

Dread Wraith Wizard easily gains the initiative and first strike indoors by scouting from inside walls.

I'm not understanding Dread Wraith as a scouting form. Lifesense says:

A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability.

and Blindsense says:

...must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object...

Hence, Lifesense does not work while hiding inside of a solid object so the only sense you get is from incorporeal which says

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location

which is about as bad as a sense can be.

You can pop halfway out of a rock (so you have cover), but then you are subject to spot in return. You can sneak past (it's hard to beat being completely silent and inside a rock), but that may not be adequate for the scenario.

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I'd expect the Wizard has superior vision control outdoors as well, though that does of course depend on a great variety of things including if the Wizard cast Greater Prying Eyes that morning or not.

Greater Prying Eyes seems like a reasonable additional scouting layer, but it breaks down at higher levels in various ways. A Hide of 16 is not that overwhelming and a move of 30' suggests they can be run down and caught even with melee weapons. AC 18 is not particularly challenging at this level. The sneaky thing to do is to not run down the prying eyes, but instead follow them back to the source and attack while the wizard is distracted reading the Prying Eyes experience. More generally, since the Prying Eye must find the wizard to report it seems incompatible with a Dread Wraith approach and somewhat iffy if you move significantly from where you cast the spell.

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The masses of animated objects potentially wielded by Grey Slaadi could be a bit of a thing; I don't expect the animated objects hit any ACs but depending on the numbers and the types they can hit touch AC with some combat maneuvers (not in incorporeal forms of course) but the short duration ultimately enables waiting them out as Slaadi lack Permanency. The value of AOE depends on positioning.

If they're bunched up, an Adult Brass Dragon's cone of sleep gas has DC 27ish Will-save (10 + 20 HD/2 + Con mod [19 + 6 item if Belt can be worn by Dragon]) runs about a 85% chance of sleeping each of the Slaads for 1d6+6 rounds. An alternative approach would just be to come near inside walls, turn into a Balor/Titan/whatever (perhaps with Familiar? Depends on positioning) and wreck face. Beholder form would enable firing up to 6 SoDs (12ish with Familiar - Disintegrate/Finger of Death/Sleep/Flesh to Stone/Fear/perhaps Telekinesis/Charm Monster) and then opening the antimagic eye to prevent retaliation if we're talking tight corridors - the value of this option depends on the Charisma. Bodak has the death gaze, which could work depending on positioning and Charisma, but I would assume the other options are more valuable if less immediate. Bodak is more of a clean-up form where you just repeatedly apply death gaze of new Bodak (or something similar) to your enemy.

If you are going to have a high intelligence and a high dexterity you can't really support a high Charisma, so the charisma based saves seem inherently weak on a wizard. For example, my notional save-or-die wizard ended up with a charisma of 10. The Adult Brass Dragon gives a decent save, but I have a doubt about the effect. Outsider says:

Outsiders ... do not need to ... sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

Can you put a creature to sleep that only sleeps if it wishes to?

Aboleth/Formian Taskmaster would enable Dominate-based approach but lacking AOE that's largely inferior for dealing with arrays of hordes. An interesting alternative approach would be Androsphinx Roar (together with familiar) from behind some obstacle; 500'-250' distance is quite potent. Depending on how the enemies can escape, you might be able to just Roar them to submission and clean up with martial forms.

Again, this seems to require a sorcerer to be truly potent. The other drawback is that it's limited use/day.

(More later --- I wanted to see your response to the above.)

[Eldariel]

My inclination as a DM is to use the RAW to limit the power of a very powerful spell (and, indeed, it remains very powerful even if you can only use it from the material plane). For the Earth Elemental/Disintegrate/Mindblank combo, you probably want a necklace of adaptation or something similar to obviate the need for air, and the use of Mindblank limits your Astral Projection time to 2 days or less. This isn't much of a restriction but it might come into play if exploring into the deeper layers of some planes.

I usually just rather use houserules as a DM to try and keep it all together. Things that are inconsistent and random feel undesirable and this is decidedly inconsistent, since the limitation has no explanation. Anyways, Iridescent Spindle is my go-to, which I tend to have on all characters anyways. Though if you were permanently PAOd into some non-breathing form (you can gain the shape in Shapechange to make for permanent PAO), that would work too.

I'm not understanding Dread Wraith as a scouting form. Lifesense says:
and Blindsense says:
Hence, Lifesense does not work while hiding inside of a solid object so the only sense you get is from incorporeal which says which is about as bad as a sense can be.

You can pop halfway out of a rock (so you have cover), but then you are subject to spot in return. You can sneak past (it's hard to beat being completely silent and inside a rock), but that may not be adequate for the scenario.

"An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be." - they can't be detected with Listen checks. Yeah, you're right, you'd need to pop out a bit. That makes it a bit annoying - still, Dread Wraith has the combination of a lot of immunities as an incorporeal undead, good Dex and the ability to gain protection from most things by being inside objects so it's a solid defense. Again, the encounter layout and character goals affect how one should approach this matter - if you know you'll fight something you can plan to move in a way as to detect them but you might well bypass things (then again, given you'll be Greater Teleporting and Plane Shifting around. Earth Elemental or such with Tremorsense would allow you to detect creatures in touch with the ground but you shouldn't more than visit the form occasionally since defensively it's completely worthless compared to Undead + Incorporeal. And your Permanencied Arcane Sight allows you to detect anyone with magic spells or effects, only requiring line of effect to identify said effects.

Greater Prying Eyes seems like a reasonable additional scouting layer, but it breaks down at higher levels in various ways. A Hide of 16 is not that overwhelming and a move of 30' suggests they can be run down and caught even with melee weapons. AC 18 is not particularly challenging at this level. The sneaky thing to do is to not run down the prying eyes, but instead follow them back to the source and attack while the wizard is distracted reading the Prying Eyes experience. More generally, since the Prying Eye must find the wizard to report it seems incompatible with a Dread Wraith approach and somewhat iffy if you move significantly from where you cast the spell.

You can keep an eye and an ear on them. Generally attacking produces sound, which should alert you.

If you are going to have a high intelligence and a high dexterity you can't really support a high Charisma, so the charisma based saves seem inherently weak on a wizard. For example, my notional save-or-die wizard ended up with a charisma of 10. The Adult Brass Dragon gives a decent save, but I have a doubt about the effect. Outsider says: Can you put a creature to sleep that only sleeps if it wishes to?

Again, this seems to require a sorcerer to be truly potent. The other drawback is that it's limited use/day.

(More later --- I wanted to see your response to the above.)

Well, you can use Silver Dragon's Paralysis to similar effect if not - somewhat worse save to target but similarly brutal effect. But generally I'd say things that aren't specifically immune to sleep can be magically forced to sleep. Types with immunity do call it out. It's magic after all. As for Dex, if you're relying on Polymorph/PAO for base Dex you don't really need physicals that much and can afford some Cha. You can also get a +6 item which should be wearable and affordable in most shapes. Even with 10 Cha though, we're talking DC 20 with 10 + ½ HD so it's not actually horrible vs. things with save bonuses under +10.

[Anthrowhale]

I usually just rather use houserules as a DM to try and keep it all together. Things that are inconsistent and random feel undesirable and this is decidedly inconsistent, since the limitation has no explanation.

I would allow research of a similar spell starting from any plane with direct access to the astral plane.

Anyways, Iridescent Spindle is my go-to, which I tend to have on all characters anyways.

Necklace of adaptation, even with the x1.5 cost for doubling up on an existing item, is cheaper.

Though if you were permanently PAOd into some non-breathing form (you can gain the shape in Shapechange to make for permanent PAO), that would work too.

This seems iffy in the sense that it's unclear from PAO text that the duration is fixed on spell start. It might instead be the minimum of possible durations, for example the reduced duration after Shapechange wears off.

"An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be." - they can't be detected with Listen checks.

Yep.

Yeah, you're right, you'd need to pop out a bit. That makes it a bit annoying - still, Dread Wraith has the combination of a lot of immunities as an incorporeal undead, good Dex and the ability to gain protection from most things by being inside objects so it's a solid defense.

The defenses are quite good, but you may be losing magic items. A DM could easily say "items are absorbed into form", particularly given the incorporeal subtype and generally unclear shape.

There is another question related to absorbed items. This article says:

When a subject changes from a form with a humanoid shape to a form with a nonhumanoid shape (or vice versa) most of his equipment is subsumed into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

Hence you only retain use of items for which you have an unbroken sequence of forms capable of using those items. Looking through the rules themselves, this seems to be the case as well. Everything ends up depending on Alter Self which states:

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional.

Again, the encounter layout and character goals affect how one should approach this matter - if you know you'll fight something you can plan to move in a way as to detect them but you might well bypass things (then again, given you'll be Greater Teleporting and Plane Shifting around.

Agreed---the scenario matters. "Escort and protect 1000 people as they travel through the underdark" is quite different from "reach the tower in the forest".

Earth Elemental or such with Tremorsense would allow you to detect creatures in touch with the ground but you shouldn't more than visit the form occasionally since defensively it's completely worthless compared to Undead + Incorporeal. And your Permanencied Arcane Sight allows you to detect anyone with magic spells or effects, only requiring line of effect to identify said effects.

Pemanency Arcane Sight means your eyes permanently glow, right? And it only works to 120'. Otherwise, an obviously solid spell.

You can keep an eye and an ear on them. Generally attacking produces sound, which should alert you.

I see. Something like: "Maintain dispersed positions which avoid injury 120 foot away from me. Upon sighting a dangerous monster point out it's direction. Return when beckoned." (23/25 words)
This seems a little bit tough with Dread Wraith but as long as you poke out of the rock often enough for the eyes to track it seems reasonable and it effectively extends your sensing range significantly. Stealth is typically lost.

Well, you can use Silver Dragon's Paralysis to similar effect if not - somewhat worse save to target but similarly brutal effect.

A critical difference here is that paralysis does not prevent SLAs and mass Chaos Hammer is pretty rough.

But generally I'd say things that aren't specifically immune to sleep can be magically forced to sleep. Types with immunity do call it out. It's magic after all.

You're right here. Gray Slaad can be forced to sleep.

As for Dex, if you're relying on Polymorph/PAO for base Dex you don't really need physicals that much and can afford some Cha. You can also get a +6 item which should be wearable and affordable in most shapes. Even with 10 Cha though, we're talking DC 20 with 10 + ½ HD so it's not actually horrible vs. things with save bonuses under +10.

Relying on items and the full range of Shapechange seems incompatible as discussed above. W.r.t. stats, my notional SoD wizard started with Con 16 (-2 race -3 age), Int 18 (+2 race, +2 age), Wis 14 (+2 age) and Cha 8 (+2 age), then invested level bonuses in Int and bought a +5 inherent bonus for Int, a +1 inherent bonus for Con, and a +1 inherent bonus for Dex. Enhancement+6 was bought for Str, Dex, Con, and Int. Adding a +6 to charisma seems reasonable but it's not clear that has much value if it's just going to be subsumed into Shapechange forms. You could shift the Wisdom bonus to Charisma downgrading Will and Spot in favor of Su save DCs.

Against the Gray Slaad, I think your most potent response is the Adult Brass dragon. I looked in the Draconomicon, but there is not clear guidance on what magic items a dragon can wear. However, since you are thinking about a strategy that changes form constantly over the full range of forms, it seems best to imagine that all magic items are absorbed? 65% are then asleep leaving an expected 3 awake. A reasonable response would then be 2 chaos hammers and an animate objects to create 1 large and 6 small objects, commanding the large object to attack and the smaller objects to wake allies. The large animated object is unlikely to hit while the chaos hammers do unclear damage since alignment is undeclared. Maybe just declare a chaotic alignment? Then you can take Balor form and just beat on the Gray Slaad with impunity.