Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Anthrowhale]

Hard to say who gets the advantage in detection as Lifesense can't detect these but if they have stored lifeforce, it could detect that instead. Prying Eyes would work though, if leaving the enemy alert as well. Undead forms protect you from most of their stuff (though the Control Undead can be a bit dangerous, even if you should make the save on 1). Perhaps a Construct-form is the better choice. Marut, Iron Golem, perhaps some of the Nightshades could be the natural form for taking these out; again you should probably use equipment. Iron Golem and Marut seems to be practically immune to anything a Devourer can do between the DR, construct immunities and magic defenses, and fully capable of beating them into submission. If need be, Wizard can plop out Haste on the Marut form though of course, Iron Golem is immune and whether you can lower your own immunity is a DM-dependent matter (though RAW does exist of course).

Marut seems like an excellent choice vs. 6 devourer. Iron Golem has an issue in that it's slower and the undead forms are problematic with spammed control undead---it's unlikely to end well over 4 encounters. Let's call it victory by Marut after ~9 rounds of pounding with fists.

A basic high-end Outsider form should be able to trounce this encounter. I'd probably use Solar or Pit Fiend to ensure the access to regeneration, though that leaves it down to not rolling nat 1s while you kill them. Alternatively Beholder-form would offer reasonable offense; Disintegrate destroys a Retriever with fairly high probability and antimagic eye protects from the rays. Construct-forms might have the resistances but the Fort-save might be seen to affect objects. It's possible to use a form with constant invisibility such as Invisible Stalker, but that does not of course prevent it using its rays blindly with the potential of hitting by accident. Will-o'-Wisp would be nigh' immune to everything Retriever does (Mind Blank covers Find Target) but its damage is kinda pathetic and killing them would take forever. Of course, just casting Greater Invisibility in Pit Fiend or whatever form would be a nigh' certain victory, but that's using a 4th level spellslot for some trash. Angels are immune to petrification so perhaps using Solar or Planetar is the most efficient means.

If you are going to deal with 4 encounters each with 6 retrievers spamming Ranged Touch Petrification... the odds of success are not great unless you manage to get touch AC up to 28+. It looks like I can adjust my notional SoD wizard to achieve a Touch AC of 28 for a Pit Fiend form via Monk's belt. Using a Planetar form does seem great for preventing petrification but then touch AC declines so you'll want Extend Fire Resistance and Extended Electricity Resistance. With that it looks like a long brawl the Planetar inevitably wins as expected damage is <10 and hence covered by regeneration.

It takes about 3 rounds of pounding with a great sword per retriever, so victory by Planetar with Greater Magic Weapon+5 Greatsword in 18 rounds.

Well, they can't seriously harm the Wizard in Dread Wraith form and not at all in e.g. Iron Golem or Marut form so it's just a matter of finding a form that can in turn hurt them. This is a bit tricky since they have no reason whatsoever to surrender themselves to open fight nor to attack enemies who they can't hurt. Earth Elemental could fight inside stone but is not immune and most incorporeal creatures have trouble affecting one another. Using some high level magic (Time Stop to Disintegrate some walls revealing them then attacking them) would probably yield victory but it would be rather costly. The safest form to use for combat with them would again be something like a construct with a sword as they're completely incapable of harming it, but getting to them when they don't want to be caught is quite the hassle. They're rather potent creatures even higher up so perhaps it might worth the effort to try and Command Undead them instead of killing them. A pack of friendly Dread Wraiths is always nice.

The Dread Wraiths are certainly annoying. The high level tactics seem to wasteful on a 4 encounters/day basis. The fighter seems to have a significant attack advantage here since Seeking archery is nearly certain to kill even on a readied multiattack and a full attack can easily take down 2. Overall, it seems pretty clear that you can survive the Dread Wraiths but defeating them could be quite tricky.

Its scary parts are useless vs. the defensive Shapechange forms and martially they are not even on the same planet with golem forms or such. Two hasted Iron Golems would make short work of them but even if it's not game, Marut's edge is quite sufficient as well (I recommend wielding a Greater Magic Weaponed Greatsword with Haste - speeds up hacking through significantly). Opening up with Beholder and Disintegrating one would be fine but the Enervation Rays are a problem - risking nat 20 and losing levels is pretty meh even if you have a 95% chance of them missing thanks to AC-boosting forms and Dex. Could use Mirror Image and Displacement to further enhance the probability of them missing I guess. Balor x 2 can slice them up quite swiftly, but without Death Ward or similar effect I would suggest against it - Statue doesn't by RAW give you construct immunities and they could just ready actions to enervate you when you turn it off anyways. Balor using spells might be the best option for being efficient though Marut two-handing a +5 Greatsword can put reasonable hurt on them (3d6+23 per hit at +26/+21 or +27/+27/+22, with +4 damage and +3 hit if strength bonus item is used; +3 damage, +2 hit if Bull's Strength is cast instead).

The Marut form seems potent against the Kolyarut. I'm skeptical about the greatsword due to the lack of proficiency, but the fists are potent doing 5d6+15 (-10 due to DR) ~= expected 45/round. Even accounting for Fast Healing, it seems like a pretty sure win. Call it victory by Marut in ~12 rounds.

This is trivial; incorporeal forms are immune to everything they do and e.g. Allip makes Wis-draining them easy.

Agreed, but there is a caveat: Are you ready to give up on magic items? That has a pretty significant impact on saves, initiative, etc...
It seems like there are two tracks for Shapechange: Use all forms or just use humanoid forms, except for emergency use of nonhumanoid forms. Trying to stay on the humanoid track, a Pit Fiend seems potent (~119 to damage/round) and I've been able to figure out how to increase AC a bit give the Monstrous Scorpion only a 5% chance of a hit. Coupled with immunity to poison and regeneration it seems like a sure win. Let's call it death by Pit Fiend in ~12 rounds.

The Wizard should be able to go first. Ironically just turning into Beholder (according to LoM they can have 1 Headband, 3 Eye-slots, 3 Amulets, 1 Belt, 1 pair of Bracers and 3 Rings so you retain a reasonable amount of stuff) allows very probable annihilation of all 3 Beholders, particularly if both, you and the familiar do it. And the save DCs aren't that bad. Though depending on their position, e.g. Dragon-form, could knock them all out with very high probability if they're reasonably close together. If they do get to act, the antimagic eye is annoying as is the risk of rolling multiple nat 1s.

A group of Beholders seems a little bit trickier than this. What happens, for example, if one or two of the beholders is in the AM cone of a third beholder? The fighters plan is to kill most of them before they can act then run out of AM range and obliterate with arrows for the remainder. Since the wizard lacks an effective ranged nonmagical attack form this is tough. If Beholder 1&2 are in the AM cone of the beholder 3 and ready actions to attack when beholder 3 winks the central eye, they can get out quite a few SoDs in a short period of time---and the wizard needs to fail just one to lose.

Their HP and saves are very low, so even accounting for their all-day buffs, a breath weapon is probably a solid choice if they can all be hit. Beholder might work as only Finger of Death is actually a [Death] effect from the SoDs. The Cleric-casting can certainly throw some wrenches into the works.

Ghaele's apparently have greater invisibility, but all the true seeing forms have difficulty keeping up with Fly 150' (perfect). Avoiding dragon seems like it would be nice in the sense that you can keep all your magic items. The 300' range touch attack, Greater Invisibility, and Incorporeality seems like a recipe for frustration.

Lots of variables, hard to call, probably warrants the use of magic, Disintegrate is a good spell choice (they're immune to Polymorph so PAO doesn't work) and it may be worthwhile to use Disjunction. Magic Missile harassment is annoying but you have Shapechange so you should get the drop on them and you can always cast Shield before you actually engage in combat. Otherwise you'll have a reasonable array of immunities but definitely, depending on their spell list, contingencies, familiars, planar bindings, animated dead, etc. this can be quite the operation though you're clearly stronger. Finding the phylacteries to prevent retribution is its own minigame afterwards but with Wizard's divinations you're well setup to it. This is a fight where I wouldn't blame you for using 9th level spells though.

The Liches do seem difficult. I was hoping to reserve the L9 slots for 4x Wail of the Banshee since that nerfs so many other encounters. The Tiefling archer can put out enough DPR to take the standard ones in the MMI down fairly quickly but has no method to handle the find-a-phylactery problem.

They can't really do much aside from their undead. Again, something like Marut or Iron Golem is basically immune to all their stuff and you can just go to town. Disintegrate and PAO work against them but Beholder Disintegrate isn't enough and using that form is too risky. You should probably settle for beating them to bloody pulp in some Construct-form. Young Adult Gold Dragon hits them for 82 damage accounting for their vulnerability to fire, but given they probably have fire resistance from a spell that's likely not enough. Yourself and your familiar breathing would suffice though provided you can catch all 3 of them in the breath area. It's worth noting that e.g. Balor, Solar and Pit Fiend all have such a high SR that the Mummies' spells are unlikely to work offensively and their non-magical offense leaves a lot to be desired.

But cleaning up 40 HD of undead can be a bit of a hassle that takes quite the while and they may be able to escape with Plane Shift or such. Wizard can trace them and use non-resource chasing powers with Shapechange but it could take a while.

Marut again seems better because it has better move than an Iron Golem and does more damage. I'd expect this to take about ~9 rounds of full attacks, possibly complicated by spells cast by the mummies.

(more later)

[Eldariel]

I would allow research of a similar spell starting from any plane with direct access to the astral plane.

Necklace of adaptation, even with the x1.5 cost for doubling up on an existing item, is cheaper.

Doesn't take a slot though. But again, as long as you maintain whatever form that doesn't need to breathe, you're fine. You might even be able to find one for Elf depending on how the DM reads the relatedness clauses.

This seems iffy in the sense that it's unclear from PAO text that the duration is fixed on spell start. It might instead be the minimum of possible durations, for example the reduced duration after Shapechange wears off.

I mean, there's no precedent for duration changing midspell. I'd assume it's permanent if it's permanent on casting. Spells check for everything when you cast them after all.

There is another question related to absorbed items. This article says: Hence you only retain use of items for which you have an unbroken sequence of forms capable of using those items. Looking through the rules themselves, this seems to be the case as well. Everything ends up depending on Alter Self which states:

Pemanency Arcane Sight means your eyes permanently glow, right? And it only works to 120'. Otherwise, an obviously solid spell.

I see. Something like: "Maintain dispersed positions which avoid injury 120 foot away from me. Upon sighting a dangerous monster point out it's direction. Return when beckoned." (23/25 words)
This seems a little bit tough with Dread Wraith but as long as you poke out of the rock often enough for the eyes to track it seems reasonable and it effectively extends your sensing range significantly. Stealth is typically lost.

You can always, during its duration, use Shapechange to periodically return to your true form which restores your items. But yes, your general form being something that keeps items is convenient; though Dread Wraith protections are hard to pass up on. Incorporeality, obstacles and Arcane Sight are a potent combination; you can see anything with active spells or magic items even through walls. Including your Prying Eyes. Meaning you have means to keep an eye for their behaviour and can control their reactions.

Marut seems like an excellent choice vs. 6 devourer. Iron Golem has an issue in that it's slower and the undead forms are problematic with spammed control undead---it's unlikely to end well over 4 encounters. Let's call it victory by Marut after ~9 rounds of pounding with fists.

If you are going to deal with 4 encounters each with 6 retrievers spamming Ranged Touch Petrification... the odds of success are not great unless you manage to get touch AC up to 28+. It looks like I can adjust my notional SoD wizard to achieve a Touch AC of 28 for a Pit Fiend form via Monk's belt. Using a Planetar form does seem great for preventing petrification but then touch AC declines so you'll want Extend Fire Resistance and Extended Electricity Resistance. With that it looks like a long brawl the Planetar inevitably wins as expected damage is <10 and hence covered by regeneration.

It takes about 3 rounds of pounding with a great sword per retriever, so victory by Planetar with Greater Magic Weapon+5 Greatsword in 18 rounds.

The Dread Wraiths are certainly annoying. The high level tactics seem to wasteful on a 4 encounters/day basis. The fighter seems to have a significant attack advantage here since Seeking archery is nearly certain to kill even on a readied multiattack and a full attack can easily take down 2. Overall, it seems pretty clear that you can survive the Dread Wraiths but defeating them could be quite tricky.

True. Command Undead does produce some helpers or underlings though and Dread Wraiths are pretty strong so it could be worthwhile. Other approaches are quite resource intensive. Again, they're easy to force on the defensive but extremely hard to weed out or attack if they're avoiding engagement.

Far as the Tiefling goes, he has no means to threaten them unless they leave walls nor can she even detect their existence. Depending on the scenario, it might just be that she can never inflict them any lasting harm and depending on the environment and the Archer's default behaviour, might be subjected to a surprise attack. Vision range, lightning conditions and such do matter.

The Marut form seems potent against the Kolyarut. I'm skeptical about the greatsword due to the lack of proficiency, but the fists are potent doing 5d6+15 (-10 due to DR) ~= expected 45/round. Even accounting for Fast Healing, it seems like a pretty sure win. Call it victory by Marut in ~12 rounds.

Agreed, but there is a caveat: Are you ready to give up on magic items? That has a pretty significant impact on saves, initiative, etc...
It seems like there are two tracks for Shapechange: Use all forms or just use humanoid forms, except for emergency use of nonhumanoid forms. Trying to stay on the humanoid track, a Pit Fiend seems potent (~119 to damage/round) and I've been able to figure out how to increase AC a bit give the Monstrous Scorpion only a 5% chance of a hit. Coupled with immunity to poison and regeneration it seems like a sure win. Let's call it death by Pit Fiend in ~12 rounds.

Well, if you don't need them, just briefly Shapechange to your true form (as per Alter Self) to regain magic items after the fight. But yes, martial approach also work.

A group of Beholders seems a little bit trickier than this. What happens, for example, if one or two of the beholders is in the AM cone of a third beholder? The fighters plan is to kill most of them before they can act then run out of AM range and obliterate with arrows for the remainder. Since the wizard lacks an effective ranged nonmagical attack form this is tough. If Beholder 1&2 are in the AM cone of the beholder 3 and ready actions to attack when beholder 3 winks the central eye, they can get out quite a few SoDs in a short period of time---and the wizard needs to fail just one to lose.

If they start with that, Telekinesis is probably your best offense. Though you could use your own antimagic eye to disable an antimagic eye and then hit the other two. Other options, well, you can get some Ex attacks with Shapechange; Cloaker's Moan off the top of my head. Something like Acid Fog would be also plausible. If you did thw Magic Jar trick before shapeshifting to inhabit a Golem, you'd be able to martially take them down.

Ghaele's apparently have greater invisibility, but all the true seeing forms have difficulty keeping up with Fly 150' (perfect). Avoiding dragon seems like it would be nice in the sense that you can keep all your magic items. The 300' range touch attack, Greater Invisibility, and Incorporeality seems like a recipe for frustration.

The Liches do seem difficult. I was hoping to reserve the L9 slots for 4x Wail of the Banshee since that nerfs so many other encounters. The Tiefling archer can put out enough DPR to take the standard ones in the MMI down fairly quickly but has no method to handle the find-a-phylactery problem.

Ghaele can be annoying, but Arcane Sight and wall lurking could give you the initiative and you only need one clear shot (and they need open terrain to really annoy you). If you also Permanency See Invisibility, you can use any form. Likely you can just use a bow as a Pit Fiend if they escape too far away.

Liches can have Arcane Sight permanencied, which can be quite the prob for the Tiefling Archer since she's glowing like a beacon at 120' so without wide open spaces there might be no chance to hide. But yes, the stock Liches are rather beatable by both, I believe. Marut again seems like a good choice.

Wail is one way to go but it might be possible to rely more on Shapechange and save all the slots for things that really require them. Though a Wizard's power to choose their path and encounters and achieve their goals in the most efficient means should not be underestimated; it vastly changes the structure of an adventuring day.


Overall, I wouldn't accept declaring an alignment as an answer to Chaos Hammer though. It feels a bit like avoiding the problem; likely all Wizards aren't chaotic and they still shouls hold up against a bunch of clowns. Chaotic type doesn't do but you could always cast Bear's Endurance if you know you need to use Dragon Breath (same with Charisma and those forms). Perhaps even Quickened. Though Belt seems like the kind of item that would stay even in Dragon-form.

[Anthrowhale]

Doesn't take a slot though. But again, as long as you maintain whatever form that doesn't need to breathe, you're fine. You might even be able to find one for Elf depending on how the DM reads the relatedness clauses.

When you pay the x1.5 cost, necklace of adaptation also does not take a slot.

I mean, there's no precedent for duration changing midspell. I'd assume it's permanent if it's permanent on casting. Spells check for everything when you cast them after all.

Is there any RAW saying that spell duration is always set on cast? For most spells it wouldn't matter, but there are a handful with post-cast adjustable duration like Dampen Magic.

PAO has

Duration: See Text

and when we look in the text it says:

The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.

What's unclear is the meaning of 'original state'. It could mean unenspelled state, pre-PAO state, or state that you would have if PAO is not in effect. Under the 1st and 3rd interpretations of "original state" the duration of the shapechange+PAO combination is not permanent. I personally subscribe to the 3rd interpretation with the caveat that PAO+PAO defines original state as per the first PAO. It sounds like you prefer the 2nd interpretation, but I don't see a RAW preference over these since 'original state' is not explicitly defined.

You can always, during its duration, use Shapechange to periodically return to your true form which restores your items.

The language is slightly different:

You can change into ... yourself. ... When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear...

If you Shapechange into yourself are you reverting to your true form? The Rules of the Game article suggests "no", but I could see a DM interpreting it either way. Regardless of DM interpretation, I think there is a trick for Su attacks: your familiar can use them. You probably don't want to deck your familiar out with magic items anyways.

But yes, your general form being something that keeps items is convenient; though Dread Wraith protections are hard to pass up on. Incorporeality, obstacles and Arcane Sight are a potent combination; you can see anything with active spells or magic items even through walls. Including your Prying Eyes. Meaning you have means to keep an eye for their behaviour and can control their reactions.

I'm not following---I don't see anything in Arcane Sight which allows you bypass line of sight restrictions.

True. Command Undead does produce some helpers or underlings though and Dread Wraiths are pretty strong so it could be worthwhile. Other approaches are quite resource intensive. Again, they're easy to force on the defensive but extremely hard to weed out or attack if they're avoiding engagement.

Far as the Tiefling goes, he has no means to threaten them unless they leave walls nor can she even detect their existence. Depending on the scenario, it might just be that she can never inflict them any lasting harm and depending on the environment and the Archer's default behaviour, might be subjected to a surprise attack. Vision range, lightning conditions and such do matter.

The Tiefling seems about as good as the wizard at detecting Dread Wraiths inside stone (i.e. bad), right? So the only advantage is the ability to see around corners within 120' which Greater Prying Eyes grants. This seems like a modest advantage because the Archer is way better than the Dread Wraiths at detection in LOS. I agree there is no means to attack them within the walls but that's effectively true for the Wizard as well. A surprise attack from Dread Wraiths also seems unlikely to inflict significant damage since there is a save to avoid constitution drain that fails on a 1 and luckblades are in play. The Archer seems to have a significant advantage in DPR if/when the Dread Wraiths expose themselves.

If they start with that, Telekinesis is probably your best offense.

15 colossal arrows do 3d6 damage each on hit with a sharp thrust, enough to take out ~1.5 beholders. You can increase that to 2 beholders with a GMW casting in advance. It's potent but on a 4 encounters/day basis not cheap.

Though you could use your own antimagic eye to disable an antimagic eye and then hit the other two. Other options, well, you can get some Ex attacks with Shapechange; Cloaker's Moan off the top of my head. Something like Acid Fog would be also plausible.

I'm just not seeing Cloaker Moan as all that effective when you are a wizard. Losing all your magic items and having a low charisma means the Beholders have an even-or-better chance of saving.

If you did thw Magic Jar trick before shapeshifting to inhabit a Golem, you'd be able to martially take them down.

This one I don't follow---if you magic jar into a golem, AMF would surpress the magic jar as well as the shapechange.

Ghaele can be annoying, but Arcane Sight and wall lurking could give you the initiative and you only need one clear shot (and they need open terrain to really annoy you). If you also Permanency See Invisibility, you can use any form. Likely you can just use a bow as a Pit Fiend if they escape too far away.

A bow does seem potentially effective. I'm unclear on whether a Pit Fiend can wield a bow, but a Balor certainly can to similar effect. You can even get the cold iron arrow heads and bypass damage reduction.

Wail is one way to go but it might be possible to rely more on Shapechange and save all the slots for things that really require them.

Looking through the encounters that I elided this seems plausible. The best general melee form seems to be Shapechange[Pit Fiend] with Shapechange[Marut] potent where immunities matter.

Overall, I wouldn't accept declaring an alignment as an answer to Chaos Hammer though. It feels a bit like avoiding the problem; likely all Wizards aren't chaotic and they still shouls hold up against a bunch of clowns. Chaotic type doesn't do but you could always cast Bear's Endurance if you know you need to use Dragon Breath (same with Charisma and those forms). Perhaps even Quickened. Though Belt seems like the kind of item that would stay even in Dragon-form.

Whether or not you have a DC+2 bonus doesn't greatly change the outcome of an encounter in most cases.

Looking through the cases that I haven't examined yet:

For 3 Death Slaad readied Chaos Hammer does seem pretty potent, especially on a 4 encounters/day basis. If the wizard is lawful, he's taking ~11 damage / chaos hammer and a dread wraith is only inflicting "real" damage on a failed save (25%?). The disabling breath weapon approach seems incomplete for both the Gray Slaad and the Death Slaad since it's unlikely to disable all of them and animated objects can wake up the sleeping rapidly.

For 2 Night Wings, PAO doesn't seem like a solution on a 4 encounters/day basis. Maybe a combination of PAO and Disintegrate is adequate.

For the Marut and Nightwalker, PAO seems like an at least reasonable choice.

For the Greater Stone Golem, it is actually has a reasonable chance of hitting in melee although in most circumstances you can slip away to heal up periodically if necessary.

[Eldariel]

Is there any RAW saying that spell duration is always set on cast? For most spells it wouldn't matter, but there are a handful with post-cast adjustable duration like Dampen Magic.

PAO has and when we look in the text it says: What's unclear is the meaning of 'original state'. It could mean unenspelled state, pre-PAO state, or state that you would have if PAO is not in effect. Under the 1st and 3rd interpretations of "original state" the duration of the shapechange+PAO combination is not permanent. I personally subscribe to the 3rd interpretation with the caveat that PAO+PAO defines original state as per the first PAO. It sounds like you prefer the 2nd interpretation, but I don't see a RAW preference over these since 'original state' is not explicitly defined.

That would only be consistent if e.g. subsequent CL buffs would improve your previously cast spells but I don't see a precedent for spells without specific clauses adjusting themselves. And if they do, you could always cast two PAOs after the first one; once the first expire, both still see a permanent form as the base form.

The language is slightly different: If you Shapechange into yourself are you reverting to your true form? The Rules of the Game article suggests "no", but I could see a DM interpreting it either way. Regardless of DM interpretation, I think there is a trick for Su attacks: your familiar can use them. You probably don't want to deck your familiar out with magic items anyways.

This is true. Sometimes you might want to double up on those though.

I'm not following---I don't see anything in Arcane Sight which allows you bypass line of sight restrictions.

Arcane Sight specifies that you can detect all auras within 120' - and that if they're in your line of sight, you can identify them. There would be no need to specify LoS if the detection required LoS as well. It inherits the restrictions of Detect Magic in "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it." which is plenty for one-directional view from inside objects vs. targets with magical objects.

The Tiefling seems about as good as the wizard at detecting Dread Wraiths inside stone (i.e. bad), right? So the only advantage is the ability to see around corners within 120' which Greater Prying Eyes grants. This seems like a modest advantage because the Archer is way better than the Dread Wraiths at detection in LOS. I agree there is no means to attack them within the walls but that's effectively true for the Wizard as well. A surprise attack from Dread Wraiths also seems unlikely to inflict significant damage since there is a save to avoid constitution drain that fails on a 1 and luckblades are in play. The Archer seems to have a significant advantage in DPR if/when the Dread Wraiths expose themselves.

Wizard can attack them inside the walls, that just takes resources. Depending on the stakes, it may or may not be worthwhile. Detection is possible but unlikely; they require spells you wouldn't usually have active such as Detect Undead so you need to be expecting undead to be able to do it though. Likely you'll just go past 'em none the wiser unless you're clearing a dungeon of them or something.

15 colossal arrows do 3d6 damage each on hit with a sharp thrust, enough to take out ~1.5 beholders. You can increase that to 2 beholders with a GMW casting in advance. It's potent but on a 4 encounters/day basis not cheap.

Fair, though you could use some heavier weapons for bigger dice. At any rate, it enables killing targets in AMFs relatively easily. Bow is another option but in Pit Fiend/Balor form you'd need feats or spells to buff you to take them out fast enough. But of course, multiple saves could lead to a natural 1.

I'm just not seeing Cloaker Moan as all that effective when you are a wizard. Losing all your magic items and having a low charisma means the Beholders have an even-or-better chance of saving.

Well, DC 20 minimum at level 20, though could be higher (also with familiar; depends on the baseform, Imp would have 14 Cha for instance). But yes, probably not that much above 50%; just a point into an effect that is AOE and effective vs. antimagic eye.

This one I don't follow---if you magic jar into a golem, AMF would surpress the magic jar as well as the shapechange.

The trick is to permanently possess a golem á la here. Lower its resistance, magic jar it, magic jar again from that body, while in the second body break the first magic jar; you're neither in the Jar nor a body while it expires so nothing happens to you. Then you return to your original body, which is now the Golem. This allows permanently possessing a body.

Whether or not you have a DC+2 bonus doesn't greatly change the outcome of an encounter in most cases.

In the case of the Slaads though, it improves the numbers in fair ways though.

Looking through the cases that I haven't examined yet:

For 3 Death Slaad readied Chaos Hammer does seem pretty potent, especially on a 4 encounters/day basis. If the wizard is lawful, he's taking ~11 damage / chaos hammer and a dread wraith is only inflicting "real" damage on a failed save (25%?). The disabling breath weapon approach seems incomplete for both the Gray Slaad and the Death Slaad since it's unlikely to disable all of them and animated objects can wake up the sleeping rapidly.

Well, the sleep can be reapplied each round by turning into the form again. But yeah, Animated Objects can be annoying. I'll have to look at the scenarios in more depth at some point perhaps.

For 2 Night Wings, PAO doesn't seem like a solution on a 4 encounters/day basis. Maybe a combination of PAO and Disintegrate is adequate.

Probably. Though they aren't that threatening; double Beholderhood should work too. Would have to do math for martial forms.

For the Greater Stone Golem, it is actually has a reasonable chance of hitting in melee although in most circumstances you can slip away to heal up periodically if necessary.

Yeah, but as long as you can trap it somehow you can just kill it at your leisure. In most circumstances that should be possible with Disintegrate used against the environment. It's a mindless automaton after all; the only place where its presence even matters is small quarters blocking 3d movement that are still large enough for it to traverse.

[Anthrowhale]

That would only be consistent if e.g. subsequent CL buffs would improve your previously cast spells but I don't see a precedent for spells without specific clauses adjusting themselves.

W.r.t. precedent, as far as I know the duration rules for PAO are without precedent amongst all other spells.

And if they do, you could always cast two PAOs after the first one; once the first expire, both still see a permanent form as the base form.

"... with the caveat that PAO+PAO defines original state as per the first PAO." eliminates the ability of a twice-baked PAO to create a permanent effect. This is justified using the Stacking effects rules under "Same Effect with Differing Results".

Arcane Sight specifies that you can detect all auras within 120' - and that if they're in your line of sight, you can identify them. There would be no need to specify LoS if the detection required LoS as well. It inherits the restrictions of Detect Magic in "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it." which is plenty for one-directional view from inside objects vs. targets with magical objects.

Very nice. And it works against all the monsters with a good defensive SLA. That almost makes losing magic items worthwhile.

Wizard can attack them inside the walls, that just takes resources. Depending on the stakes, it may or may not be worthwhile. Detection is possible but unlikely; they require spells you wouldn't usually have active such as Detect Undead so you need to be expecting undead to be able to do it though. Likely you'll just go past 'em none the wiser unless you're clearing a dungeon of them or something.

I'm skeptical that a Wizard can effectively attack a group of Dread Wraith that wants to run away.

Fair, though you could use some heavier weapons for bigger dice. At any rate, it enables killing targets in AMFs relatively easily. Bow is another option but in Pit Fiend/Balor form you'd need feats or spells to buff you to take them out fast enough. But of course, multiple saves could lead to a natural 1.

I think it's actually fairly difficult to do more damage with just 25 lbs, particularly when you take into account the ability to enchant 50 arrows with one spell.

The trick is to permanently possess a golem á la here. Lower its resistance, magic jar it, magic jar again from that body, while in the second body break the first magic jar; you're neither in the Jar nor a body while it expires so nothing happens to you. Then you return to your original body, which is now the Golem. This allows permanently possessing a body.

I'm not sure this works because it says

If the spell ends while you are in a host...

Although you are in a host provided by the second casting, it is still a host so the consequence may apply. The other issue with this is that there is no level adjustment for a Golem and hence it turns a character into a NPC/Monster.

Probably. Though they aren't that threatening; double Beholderhood should work too. Would have to do math for martial forms.

I'm still skeptical about nonbipedal forms and losing magic items. There is quite a bit of DM interpretation here, so choosing a strategy that works for all possible interpretations seems pretty desirable.

Yeah, but as long as you can trap it somehow you can just kill it at your leisure. In most circumstances that should be possible with Disintegrate used against the environment. It's a mindless automaton after all; the only place where its presence even matters is small quarters blocking 3d movement that are still large enough for it to traverse.

Which is probably where an intelligent creator would deploy them...

[Eldariel]

I'm skeptical that a Wizard can effectively attack a group of Dread Wraith that wants to run away.

The use of ground annihilating attacks like Disintegrate or PAO can momentarily unveil the Dread Wraith; it's costly but possible. If you're, say, on an escort mission, it may be worth doing.

I think it's actually fairly difficult to do more damage with just 25 lbs, particularly when you take into account the ability to enchant 50 arrows with one spell.

This is true, I had overlooked the 50 arrow point. My problem with that was that arrows are often destroyed on use while weapons can be used ad nauseum but with that amount of arrows you should be fine.

I'm not sure this works because it says Although you are in a host provided by the second casting, it is still a host so the consequence may apply. The other issue with this is that there is no level adjustment for a Golem and hence it turns a character into a NPC/Monster.

You're in the second Magic Jar - the consequences apply if you're "in a host or the Magic Jar"; you're in another Jar, which is neither so nothing happens. The sequence is "Jar the creature > cast a second Jar from the new body and stay in the Jar while the chain is broken." And it's not a different creature; it's still a Wizard 20, just with a new base body. This is apparent since its HD, mental abilities, class features and such are still those of Wizard 20; it just inherits the physical characteristics of the stolen form.

I'm still skeptical about nonbipedal forms and losing magic items. There is quite a bit of DM interpretation here, so choosing a strategy that works for all possible interpretations seems pretty desirable.

I'd rather paint out the various possibilities than try to focus on the unambiguous ones since a lot of potential that'll likely be available in the majority of games is lost otherwise.

Which is probably where an intelligent creator would deploy them...

Aye, but such corridors are also the place where things like Disintegrate annihilating ground are incredibly efficient. Also the usual Achilles' Heel of mindless things, Silent Image, would likely work while the familiar does all the busy work. But yes, there are various approaches to this problem none of which end well for the Golem; it's simply completely and utterly strategically outgunned. Even in the most extremely cramped quarters, Shapechange allows regaining distance at any point.

[Anthrowhale]

The use of ground annihilating attacks like Disintegrate or PAO can momentarily unveil the Dread Wraith; it's costly but possible. If you're, say, on an escort mission, it may be worth doing.

If you have 4 encounters each with 6 Dread Wraiths while on an escort mission, I think you can't succeed. The best I can imagine is some kind of Beholder based approach where you free action disintegrate, then AM-cone on (causing the wraith to wink out), then on the next round AM-cone off and disintegrate for a 35% chance of inflcting expected 91 damage. If you and the familiar tag-team the AM-cones, the Dread Wraith can be killed in about 3 rounds. The problem with this strategy is that the other 5 Dread Wraiths may not patiently wait for their turn (and, of course, you lose access to magic items).

You're in the second Magic Jar - the consequences apply if you're "in a host or the Magic Jar"; you're in another Jar, which is neither so nothing happens. The sequence is "Jar the creature > cast a second Jar from the new body and stay in the Jar while the chain is broken."

Got it.

And it's not a different creature; it's still a Wizard 20, just with a new base body. This is apparent since its HD, mental abilities, class features and such are still those of Wizard 20; it just inherits the physical characteristics of the stolen form.

This still seems too obviously overpowered for real-world play and the text in PHB II around race rebuilding suggests the DM can impose race rebuild rules here. The same possible flaw exists for the ExFighter.

Aye, but such corridors are also the place where things like Disintegrate annihilating ground are incredibly efficient. Also the usual Achilles' Heel of mindless things, Silent Image, would likely work while the familiar does all the busy work. But yes, there are various approaches to this problem none of which end well for the Golem; it's simply completely and utterly strategically outgunned. Even in the most extremely cramped quarters, Shapechange allows regaining distance at any point.

A Stone Golem is Huge, so you might need as much as 8 disintegrates to block it's path in a hallway? (to make a hole 20' wide, 20' across and 20' deep). Overall, I'm more optimistic about Shapechange[Pit Fiend] and beat on it, retreating as necessary to heal up since Stone Golems are slow.

W.r.t. Dread Wraith tactics, have you considered the drawback of a familiar? You must stay within 5' at all times, significantly crimping movement.

[Ivanhoe]

Well, Eldariel and Anthrowhale - after exchanging thoughts on how a melee-shapechanging-buffed wizard can overcome high-level MM challenges, what do you think?
What I get from this interesting exchange is that a wizard can achieve similar levels of combat prowess as a fighter of that level in core, but the fighter is a bit more effective. Would you agree?
In that case, the level 20 fighter in core would still have a niche (sort of).

The trick is to permanently possess a golem á la here. Lower its resistance, magic jar it, magic jar again from that body, while in the second body break the first magic jar; you're neither in the Jar nor a body while it expires so nothing happens to you. Then you return to your original body, which is now the Golem. This allows permanently possessing a body.

Interesting find. I do not think that trick works, though.
1) magic jar has no permanent duration or would say so. Or, the duration of hours/level connected with " or " to another condition would apply even without that trick (magic jar remains in place until the caster returns to the original body).
2) a golem is a construct and thus immune to necromancy spells.

[Anthrowhale]

I expect we're finally near an end

I've been trying to digest Eldariel's tactics into a wizard build. Instead of the common view where a wizard knows everything in advance and can blow many spells on a single encounter we are instead considering a single fixed wizard that must handle 4 encounters in a row without rest.

I'm currently on "Old Gray Elf Wizard 20"

Spoiler: Attributes

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Str 9= 8 -2 (race)-3(age)+6(enhance)
Dex 14 = 8+2(race)-3(age)+1(inherent)+6(enhance)
Con 18 = 16-2(race)-3(age)+1(inherent)+6(enhance)
Int 38 = 18+2(race)+5(level)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+2(age)
Wis 20 = 14+4(enhance)+2(age)
Cha 10 = 8+2(age)

Spoiler: Feats

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1. Spell Penetration.
3. Greater Spell Penetration
5(Wizard). Heighten Spell
6. Spell Focus(Transmutation)
9. Greater Spell Focus(Transmutation)
10(Wizard). Extend Spell
12. Spell Focus(Necromancy)
15. Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
15(Wizard). Quicken Spell?
18. Improved Initiative
20(Wizard). Maximize Spell?

Spoiler: Items

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Necklace of Adaptation: 9K
Str+6, Dex+6, Con+6, Int+6 Wis+4: 160K
Int+5(inherent),Dex+1(Inherent),Con+1(Inherent): 192.5K
Natural Armor+2: 8K
Mithril Buckler+3: 10K
Greater Rod of Extend: 24.5K
Rod of Quicken Spell: 75.5K
Spiked Gauntlet+1+Defending: 8K
Boots of Speed: 12K
Cloak of Resistance+5: 25K
Luckstone: 20K
Orange (caster level+1), Pale Green(Competence+1), Dusty Rose(AC+1) Ioun Stones: 65K
Eyes of Eagle: 2.5K
Luckblade 22.5K
Ring of Freedom: 40K
Mithril Chain Shirt+3: 10K
Permanency Arcane Sight 9.05K
Permanency See Invisibility 6.55K
Permanency Heightened Symbol of Insanity 26.55K (On buckler)
Animate Object@L32: 1.92K
PAO@L31: 2.48K (animated object to colossal size. duration: permanent)
Permanency[Animate Object] scroll@L31: 16.938K
Left over: 5.212K

Spoiler: Spells

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*=cast at beginning of adventuring day.

9. *Foresight (Extended Via Rod to 7 hours)
9. *Shapechange (Extended Via Rod to 7 hours)
9. Time Stop
9. *Extended Greater Prying Eyes (Spot+21, True Seeing, 7 hours)
9. Disjunction
9. Wail of the Banshee
8. *MindBlank
8. *Moment of Prescience
8x4. Polymorph Any Object (Fortitude 34)
7. Greater Teleport
7. Plane Shift
7x4. Control Undead (Will 33)
6x4. Tenser's Transformation
6. True Seeing
6x2. Greater Dispel Magic
5. *Overland Flight
5x4. Telekinesis (Attack Bonus 29, 210' range, 15 colossal {Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine} arrows doing 5+3d6.)
5x2. Wall of Stone (Reflex 28)
4x3 *Extended Greater Magic Weapon (Two-Handed Sword, Spiked Gauntlet, Cold Iron Arrows, Silver Arrows, Adamantine Arrows)
4x3 Improved Invisibility
4. Extend Magic Circle
3x5. *Extended Resist Energy (Each Flavor)
3x2 Dispel Magic
2. *False Life
2x3. False Life
2. Glitterdust
2. Web
2. Command Undead
2. Invisibility
1x2. SMI (Initiates Symbol of Insanity)
1. Truestrike
1x2. Silent Image
1. Grease
1. Ray of Enfeeblement
1. Charm Person

Spoiler: Stats

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AC(Balor): 58(+2 deflect vs. evil) = 10(base)+11(Dex)+5(Magic Vestment)+19(Natural)+6(Buckler)-1(size)+2(Natural Enhance)+5(Defending)+1(Insight)
AC(Pit Fiend): 63
AC(Titan): 54
AC(Marut): 51
Touch AC(Balor): 27(+2 deflect vs. evil) = 10(base)+11(dex)-1(size)+5(defending)+1(insight)
Fortitude(Balor) 27 = 6(levels)+14(Con)+5(Resist)+1(luck)+1(Competence)
Reflex(Balor) 24 = 6(levels)+11(Dex)+5(Resist)+1(Luck)+1(Competence)
Will(Balor) 24 = 12(levels)+5(Wis)+5(Resist)+1(luck)+1(competence)

Spot(Balor): 34 = 11(levels)+5(Wis)+8(Race)+1(Luck)+5(Eagle Eyes)+2(Alertness)+2(Circumstance)
+many more unspecified skills

Initiative(Balor) 17 = 11(Dex)+4(Feat)+1(Luck)+1(Competence)
Attack Bonus(Balor) 30 = 10(base)+15(Str)+5(Enhance)
Pit Fiend:+1, Titan+4, Tensor's Transformation+10

Hit Points = 132 (52 Wizard 20 + 80 Con)

There are two primary tactics to handle encounters.

Spoiler: A Symbol of Insanity

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A heightened symbol of insanity with a Will 33 save makes combat encounters easy since most opponents have only a 10% chance of doing something effective. The symbol can be scribed on the buckler and the wizard can walk around with the symbol triggered (via a summon monster I spell), but with the buckler hidden behind a robe. Either a free action or a move action would be required to drop the robe revealing the pre-activated symbol. Since insanity is not an ongoing effect, Magic Circle vs X does not protect.

Spoiler: The Shapechange tactic

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Shapechange provides a versatile mechanism to adopt a form with appropriate immunities, better physical stats, and good attack forms. Many encounters end in near-certain victory through shapechange + suitable items to achieve a high AC.

Several common Shapechange alternate forms are nice. I've avoided Dread Wraith here, because Dread Wraith implies movement is limited to 20' or less/round since the familiar must also take an incorporeal form and the constraints of adjacency imply hobbled movement, at least in tactical situations.

Spoiler: Shapechange Forms

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I'm assuming the DM does not allow recovery of items after transforming into an item suppressing form until the spell ends. I'm also assuming the DM rules that forms not using weapons are incapable of weapon use unless they are specifically noted as having hands or being dextrous. For example, means that a Leonal cannot charge with a lance to take advantage of Pounce.

Balor Str 41, Dex 32, Con 38, Weapons, True Seeing. Natural Armor +19, Fly 90'(good), Large, True Seeing, [Chaotic] [Evil]. All day True Seeing, Spot+8, and a good initiative.

Pit Fiend: Str 43, Dex 34, Con 34, Claw/Claw/Bite+Poison/Wing/Wing/Tail, Natural armor+23, Large, Regeneration 5, Fly 60'(average), [Lawful] [Evil]. Exceptional AC and 6 natural attacks.

Titan: Str 49, Dex 19, Con 46, Weapons, Natural Armor+19, Huge, [Chaotic], Change Shape. Maximum attack bonus and Change Shape makes you medium or small humanoid while preserving ability scores.

Marut: Str 41, Dex 20, Con -, Slam/Slam, Natural Armor+15, Large, Construct, [Lawful], Fast Heal 10, Fists of Thunder&Lightning. Construct immunities.

Planetar: Str 31, Dex 26, Con 27, Weapons, Natural Armor+19, Large, [Good], Regeneration 10, Change Shape, Protective Aura. The best [Good] melee form for damage reduction penetration.

Leonal: Str 33, Dex 24, Con 27, Claw/Claw/Bite, Natural Armor+14, [Good], Pounce+Rake/Rake, Roar, Protective Aura. Roar allows 3/day caster level 20 Holy Word at will in a 60' cone although Fortitude plausibly negates.

The familiar, since it lacks magic items, can more freely use shapechange as long as it remains next to the Gray Elf.

Spoiler: Familiar Shapechange

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Beholder: Antimagic Cone (great vs. Dread Wraiths and in combo with TK arrows), Disintegrate, Telekinesis.

Brass Dragon: Sleep Breath Weapon.

many others

The previous two tactics fail against either particularly difficult opponents, undead, or constructs. Of these:

1. Constructs are usually stupid and hence defeatable.
2. Undead attack forms can typically be nerfed via assuming Marut form. For these, Polymorph Any Object is an excellent attack form and Control Undead is also often useful.
3. Against particularly difficult opponents the combination of DC 33 Insanity and DC 34 Polymorph Any Object is fairly effective.
4. TK thrust with +5 colossal arrows provides a potent ranged attack.
5. In the worst case, the wizard can use Tenser's Transformation + Titan form to potentially put out >250 damage/round.

Given the above tactics, which can be deployed repeatedly throughout the day, the most problematic remaining encounter seem to be:
6 Dread Wraith: Spot+25, Undead, Incorporeal, Lifesense, Touch+16(7+Fort 25 or 4.5 con)
The Archer seems somewhat better at combating Dread Wraiths since the Seeking arrows always hit and damage/round is higher when they do expose themselves. Neither has an efficient-enough-to-be-effective approach to counter Dread Wraiths hiding inside objects.

Comparing with the Tiefling Archer, the Wizard clearly has a large edge in movement, information gathering, and immunities. The Tiefling has a large edge in damage-per-round and in robustness to dispel attacks. The most problematic encounter for the Tiefling remains:
9 Gray Slaad: Spot+15, See invisibility, Hide+16, Immune Sonic, Magic Circle, Chaos Hammer
Due to the prospect of massed Chaos Hammer. For the wizard, this is a lesser issue since the Gray Slaad almost always fail against the Symbol of Insanity.

Some tactics were avoided due to a combination of being overpowered and nonspecific to the character class.

Spoiler: Avoided Tactics

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It is possible to acquire a caster level 22 version of Gate and use it to Gate a 44 HD solar from which a donation is taken that can then be used for a caster level 22 scroll of Simulacrum creating a support Solar with 22HD and all the normal abilities of a 22HD solar.

It is also possible to take leadership.

My high level opinion at the moment is that an optimized core wizard is more critical to a party than an optimized core fighter, primarily due to strategic movement (Astral Projection, Greater Teleport) and information gathering (Greater Prying Eyes, Greater Scrying, many knowledge skills). Nevertheless an optimized core fighter seems able to consistently contribute significantly in damage/round.

[Eldariel]

@Anthro: Let's not forget that this is superrestrictive rulings we're working with. If e.g. Leonal can mounted charge with a lance, the DPS numbers go through the roof.

For those slots, False Life at 2nd level is beyond obvious. Can be prepared multiple times. Or at 4th with a Rod. Resist Energy is another long duration buff you'd probably want since why not. Then the usual Glitterdust/Web/Grease/Invisibility; you could probably save some money for a Lesser Rod of Quicken as those spells are practically always useful. Ray of Enfeeblement is another you should have an access to, as is Command Undead (the duration is incredible). Unseen Servant, True Strike, Charm Person, and the like can fill out the slots with utility.

And for 6th, there should definitely be at least one Disintegrate there as modifying terrain is awesome. And 1st level should have Silent Image if no other illusions are to be present. Contingency doesn't take a slot usually since it lasts for days/level. You can cast another Contingency at your Familiar using Share Spells "Cast a spell with You target" to have two. The usual "Make mouth motions to say a word tied to Teleport" is probably a good one; a couple of those are nice. Other Symbols are worth considering too; nothing stops you from stacking a shield full of them. A very solid line of spells. Of course it's a matter of resource management at that point. You can save a 9th level slot by using your familiar to turn into a Nightmare and Astral Projection you both instead of casting the spell.


Speaking of resource management, I did some math on the possible underlings. A 10-Headed Zombie Hydra (cut its heads to double their number; this is a natural ability like the ability to attack with all heads whenever it gets to hit so it remains after zombification) with a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 costs you ~150000gp, most in reusable equipment, but hits relatively hard at 20x +23 for 1d10+15. There's no good way that I found to get Greater Magic Fang instead - short of Simulacrum Solar using Wish to replicate it which seems a tad overkill. Things without DR get absolutely slaughtered, but the attack bonus is mediocre. Turning into a Nightshade for the double Desecrate bonus, and casting buffs such as Greater Invisibility on it can both help. Technically it could lower its mind-affecting immunity to receive Greater Heroism but that feels a tad silly since it's still mindless.

As for Simulacrums, all the Outsiders, particularly Solar with the Wish SLA is probably worth the cost just as a support caster. Of course, having more underlings affects your logistics, but that's just something you work with depending on the scenario. In a vacuum it's hard to really tackle, outside our heroes moving in a line to nowhere in particular encountering random enemies as they go (not reflective of how a high level game with the abilities given to high level casters would play out)

But again, the encounter type is ultimately a factor that can only be determined in the campaign scenario. In this kind of a vacuum, it's pretty much impossible to determine how they would come about; one doesn't go about killing monsters but doing things with killing monsters being a byproduct, which sets the framework for how encounters come to be. Walls of Force to block Dread Wraiths out from a corridor is just as solid a way of escorting a bunch of mooks through it as is actually weeding them out, to say nothing of just teleporting them through it. But I digress, back to looking at the raw guidelines of repeated encounters:


I found a potentially better way to beat the Gray Slaads. Leonal's Roar replicates Holy Word, which means a 20HD character can use it to vaporize all 10HD- non-good creatures in the area. The Fort-save seems to only be for the 2d6 Sonic-damage, as the whole Holy Word seems a bit illogical otherwise. Though if it does allow Fort-save for the Holy Word, it's probably worse than Breath Weapons.

As for overland movement in Dread Wraith form, I'd assume out of encounters you move adjacent to one another at full speed at no problem; it only seems to be a problem once initiative is rolled since combat movement in the system is kinda silly.

Well, Eldariel and Anthrowhale - after exchanging thoughts on how a melee-shapechanging-buffed wizard can overcome high-level MM challenges, what do you think?
What I get from this interesting exchange is that a wizard can achieve similar levels of combat prowess as a fighter of that level in core, but the fighter is a bit more effective. Would you agree?
In that case, the level 20 fighter in core would still have a niche (sort of).

Well, a Wizard with Shapechange and (Quickened) Tenser's could replicate the Tiefling Fighter's tactics too if desired; it's not like a Wizard is forbidden from using a ranged weapon and he gets a GMW on it to boot. I don't think Fighter as the class offers nearly enough to make up for what you're losing particularly in terms of non-combat encounters and campaign level tools (Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Detect Thoughts, Teleport, Dominate, Charm, and the like). This is the most optimal comparison for the Fighter and I'd still rather take the Wizard for the allday immunities; the Fighter getting randomly ganked by 100 Shadows in the middle of a Shadowcalypse would probably die while the Wizard again has the baseline immunities and Foresight and Contingencies and Astral Projection. The Fighter's defense feels just three layers too shallow even if the numbers themselves are sufficient; you don't have the room for unexpected things happening/something going wrong. Also the reliance on items, particularly the weapon, is an Achilles' Heel which the Wizard doesn't really share; GMW makes any weapon sufficiently strong and spells can just be recast if Dispelled. Same with the PAO; it's gone in a Disjunction and rebuying it is expensive.

But yes, a Fighter can be alright at fighting though again, we're working with a permissive ruling for the Merciful bow converting energy damage to flat damage which may or may not be RAW but probably not applicable in many tables. Without that, stacking damage on ranged attacks from a weapon has huge issues when faced with multiresistant Outsiders and monsters higher up. I wouldn't consider Fighter 20 for a caster party. Taking nothing away from the build - it's probably pretty close to as good as a Fighter Archer in Core can be. But it's still fundamentally a Fighter.

We're also taking monsters straight from the MM with no treasure/items/feat swaps/spell swaps which causes its own sets of problems; this is not really modelling a real game but trying to build a consistent testing bed for comparison. Wizard has more tools for dealing with unexpected/strange things and in general, magical defenses, while the Fighter has to just try and punch through. Wizard can also operate in any encounter/plane/terrain while the Fighter has some restrictions, lacking many modes of movement (teleportation and plane shifting most critically) and modes of vision (arcane sight, contact other plane most critically).

Interesting find. I do not think that trick works, though.
1) magic jar has no permanent duration or would say so. Or, the duration of hours/level connected with " or " to another condition would apply even without that trick (magic jar remains in place until the caster returns to the original body).
2) a golem is a construct and thus immune to necromancy spells.

Well, you can break Magic Jar through the means defined in the spell. And if you're not dead and are in another body and the original spell duration expired, it feels like the only natural option is that nothing happens - i.e. you keep that body. But yeah, golem immunity might or might not be a problem depending on if it can lower it. If not, well, there are plenty of good bodies to take over (The Tarrasque, anyone?). But yeah, it's a tad on the strong side far as tricks go.


EDIT: It might be interesting to test some upper limits. Perhaps throw 4 CR 20 encounters or a single CR 24+ on these characters for a bad day - see how much above their weight class they can punch. Perhaps scale those CR 16 encounters like Grey Slaadi, Ghaele Eladrins, or Dread Wraiths into a CR 20 by quadrupling their numbers. Or perhaps hordes of lower level stuff: ~200 Shadows (a CR 20 by the numbers; CR19 is something like 128 as per 7 doublings from CR 5 which is 2 Shadows, 2^7 = 128), 700 MM Orcs (about CR 20), 3000 MM Kobolds (about CR 20) or similars.

[Anthrowhale]

@Anthro: Let's not forget that this is superrestrictive rulings we're working with. If e.g. Leonal can mounted charge with a lance, the DPS numbers go through the roof.

I made a note of this in the shapechange section.

For those slots, False Life at 2nd level is beyond obvious. Can be prepared multiple times. Or at 4th with a Rod. Resist Energy is another long duration buff you'd probably want since why not. Then the usual Glitterdust/Web/Grease/Invisibility; you could probably save some money for a Lesser Rod of Quicken as those spells are practically always useful. Ray of Enfeeblement is another you should have an access to, as is Command Undead (the duration is incredible). Unseen Servant, True Strike, Charm Person, and the like can fill out the slots with utility.

I tweaked the lower level spells to reflect the above---tell me if you think anything else should be tweaked. It's not clear to me that these matter much since the save DCs are relatively low and there aren't enough to have reliable access. Nevertheless, they provide a few extra tools.

W.r.t. the lesser rod of Quicken, what would you drop for it? It's 35K gp.

And for 6th, there should definitely be at least one Disintegrate there as modifying terrain is awesome. And 1st level should have Silent Image if no other illusions are to be present. Contingency doesn't take a slot usually since it lasts for days/level. You can cast another Contingency at your Familiar using Share Spells "Cast a spell with You target" to have two. The usual "Make mouth motions to say a word tied to Teleport" is probably a good one; a couple of those are nice. Other Symbols are worth considering too; nothing stops you from stacking a shield full of them. A very solid line of spells. Of course it's a matter of resource management at that point. You can save a 9th level slot by using your familiar to turn into a Nightmare and Astral Projection you both instead of casting the spell.

I actually had disintegrate there but then realized the familiar could just take beholder form for utility use.

The contingency discussion reminded me of a problem with the Astral Projection strategy: there is no evidence that Astral Projection duplicates spells and by default it should not. Hence you lose access (or need to recast) all long duration spells (Permanency See Invisible, Arcane Sight, Symbol of Insanity, Contingency, Mind Blank & Greater Magic Weapon). It's probably safer.

It's also important to setup some mechanism to wake you up from Astral Projection after a preset time as otherwise an AMF can lock your magical body for an indefinite duration. I was attempting to setup Contingency(Dispel Magic) with a time based duration before using Astral Projection, but other approaches are reasonable as well.

Speaking of resource management, I did some math on the possible underlings. A 10-Headed Zombie Hydra (cut its heads to double their number; this is a natural ability like the ability to attack with all heads whenever it gets to hit so it remains after zombification) with a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 costs you ~150000gp, most in reusable equipment, but hits relatively hard at 20x +23 for 1d10+15.

A Zombie suffers from

Zombies ... can perform only a single ... attack action each round.

An attack action is just a form of standard action so only 1 head can attack. You could go for a skeleton instead, but the hit points declines (to 78) and the attack bonus declines (to +20). Can a Hydra wear a belt? And which 150K gp of items would you want to give up? Overall, you can do something here, but it's not at all clear to me this is worth the opportunity cost.

As for Simulacrums, all the Outsiders, particularly Solar with the Wish SLA is probably worth the cost just as a support caster.

A simulacrum support caster is a good idea, but unless you are starting from 44HD Solar, the set of abilities of a simulacrum are unspecified:

it has only one-half of the real creature’s ... Hit Dice (and the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD)

Since there are no defined HD21- Solars it is the DMs decision which special abilities remain. This leaves the question: how do you get access to material components from a 44HD Solar?

But again, the encounter type is ultimately a factor that can only be determined in the campaign scenario. In this kind of a vacuum, it's pretty much impossible to determine how they would come about; one doesn't go about killing monsters but doing things with killing monsters being a byproduct, which sets the framework for how encounters come to be.

Yep, agreed.

I found a potentially better way to beat the Gray Slaads. Leonal's Roar replicates Holy Word, which means a 20HD character can use it to vaporize all 10HD- non-good creatures in the area. The Fort-save seems to only be for the 2d6 Sonic-damage, as the whole Holy Word seems a bit illogical otherwise. Though if it does allow Fort-save for the Holy Word, it's probably worse than Breath Weapons.

Roar is a great find and the "Fortitude ... negates" is super ambiguous. I'd probably bind it to holy word because it's a little bit more common to negate everything rather than some things.

As for overland movement in Dread Wraith form, I'd assume out of encounters you move adjacent to one another at full speed at no problem; it only seems to be a problem once initiative is rolled since combat movement in the system is kinda silly.

That was my thinking as well.

Well, a Wizard with Shapechange and (Quickened) Tenser's could replicate the Tiefling Fighter's tactics too if desired;

There are two issues with this. One is that the wizard doesn't have the feats for it. The other is that you need a rod to quicken a spell, costing 75.5K gp. Of these, the loss of feats probably matters more as per the discussions of a commoner archer.

it's not like a Wizard is forbidden from using a ranged weapon and he gets a GMW on it to boot. I don't think Fighter as the class offers nearly enough to make up for what you're losing particularly in terms of non-combat encounters and campaign level tools (Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Detect Thoughts, Teleport, Dominate, Charm, and the like). This is the most optimal comparison for the Fighter and I'd still rather take the Wizard for the allday immunities; the Fighter getting randomly ganked by 100 Shadows in the middle of a Shadowcalypse would probably die while the Wizard again has the baseline immunities and Foresight and Contingencies and Astral Projection. The Fighter's defense feels just three layers too shallow even if the numbers themselves are sufficient; you don't have the room for unexpected things happening/something going wrong. Also the reliance on items, particularly the weapon, is an Achilles' Heel which the Wizard doesn't really share; GMW makes any weapon sufficiently strong and spells can just be recast if Dispelled. Same with the PAO; it's gone in a Disjunction and rebuying it is expensive.

W.r.t. campaign level tools, I think we agree that they are more valuable than what a fighter contributes. However, a party only needs one wizard for access to these tools.

W.r.t. a Shadowcalypse, the Archers survive indefinitely since the shadows can't detect them (Spot+9 for a greater shadow).

W.r.t. fighter dependencies, in a party I expect these are not too significant in a party with some minimal support from allied spellcasters where PAO dispelling leads the wizard to cast PAO on the fighter.

But yes, a Fighter can be alright at fighting though again, we're working with a permissive ruling for the Merciful bow converting energy damage to flat damage which may or may not be RAW but probably not applicable in many tables. Without that, stacking damage on ranged attacks from a weapon has huge issues when faced with multiresistant Outsiders and monsters higher up. I wouldn't consider Fighter 20 for a caster party. Taking nothing away from the build - it's probably pretty close to as good as a Fighter Archer in Core can be. But it's still fundamentally a Fighter.

The baseline damage for the Tiefling archer is 52 of which only 14 comes from bow enhancements. It would be annoying losing the bow, but it's not crippling as there is a backup. To put some numbers behind things, the Tiefling archer opens up with a full attack with 6 attacks dealing expected baseline damage 312. Exact damage varies significantly with monster immunities but the Tiefling has the tools to unlock nearly all forms of unlockable damage resistance.

The wizard on the other hand generally can't full attack in the first round since it's melee focused and encounters typically start from beyond melee range. In the first round you might either cast Tenser's Transformation and position for a full attack or charge and attack @34 dealing 47 damage in Titan form. Notably, you'll often be inflicting up to 15 less damage due to either having the wrong weapon to penetrate damage resistance or needing to choose a less powerful form to get the right alignment modifier to penetrate DR. And, the wizard suffers a 50% miss when dealing with incorporeal creatures.

So, in round 1, it's 47 (wizard) vs. 312 (archer).

In the second round, you could full attack with two-handed greatsword 5 times dealing an expected 235 baseline damage in Titan form.

So, in round 2, it's 282 (wizard) vs 624 (archer). Most encounters are simply over at this point for the archer.

None of the above takes into account a surprise round which the archer is more capable of manufacturing. We could of course add a stealth package to the wizard but then we need to take away from the current wizard wealth allocation (where?).

We're also taking monsters straight from the MM with no treasure/items/feat swaps/spell swaps which causes its own sets of problems; this is not really modelling a real game but trying to build a consistent testing bed for comparison. Wizard has more tools for dealing with unexpected/strange things and in general, magical defenses, while the Fighter has to just try and punch through. Wizard can also operate in any encounter/plane/terrain while the Fighter has some restrictions, lacking many modes of movement (teleportation and plane shifting most critically) and modes of vision (arcane sight, contact other plane most critically).

If you are soloing, I think a spellcaster is better because of the above. In a cooperating party of 4, I could imagine a fighter being a reasonable choice since strategic information gathering & movement are fully covered by the rest of the party. (A Ranger would be somewhat better due to better skills.)

EDIT: It might be interesting to test some upper limits. Perhaps throw 4 CR 20 encounters or a single CR 24+ on these characters for a bad day - see how much above their weight class they can punch. Perhaps scale those CR 16 encounters like Grey Slaadi, Ghaele Eladrins, or Dread Wraiths into a CR 20 by quadrupling their numbers. Or perhaps hordes of lower level stuff: ~200 Shadows (a
CR 20 by the numbers; CR19 is something like 128 as per 7 doublings from CR 5 which is 2 Shadows, 2^7 = 128), 700 MM Orcs (about CR 20), 3000 MM Kobolds (about CR 20) or similars.

Evidence the wizard is overpowered (if that is what we are looking for) is not equivalent to evidence that the fighter is underpowered.

More generally, large numbers of low level things seem generically nonchallenging for the Tiefling Archer, since they cannot penetrate stealth and the Tiefling can enter stealth at will. The absolute minimum for a challenging encounter here is something with See Invisibility.

Large numbers of low level things also seem commonly nonchallenging to the wizard since the Symbol of Insanity causes 95% of nonimmune opponents to attack each other. And for the immune opponents, Marut form typically provides immunity to their attacks.

[Anthrowhale]

I made one small tweak the Tiefling Archer build. The discussion of Magic Jar reminded me that it's pretty easy to get personal-only permanency spells. All you do is hire a spellcaster to:

1. Cast Magic Jar
2. Use Magic Jar to take over the Fighter's body.
3. Cast See Invisible
4. Use a scroll of permanency to make it permanent
5. End Magic Jar

The combination of always-on See Invisible + high Spellcraft makes the Gem of Seeing mostly obsolete allowing us to instead increase AC to 59, increase Wisdom enhancement bonus for Will 24 & Spot 33, and increase Intelligence enhancement bonus to always see through illusions.

[JNAProductions]

Thread II-because one is apparently needed.

[Eldariel]

I'll just quickly cover these two:

A Zombie suffers from An attack action is just a form of standard action so only 1 head can attack. You could go for a skeleton instead, but the hit points declines (to 78) and the attack bonus declines (to +20). Can a Hydra wear a belt? And which 150K gp of items would you want to give up? Overall, you can do something here, but it's not at all clear to me this is worth the opportunity cost.

Hydras have this natural ability:
"Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round."

So the Zombie limitation doesn't matter other than essentially halving their movement. Standard action charge is available to move and attack with a single stan

A simulacrum support caster is a good idea, but unless you are starting from 44HD Solar, the set of abilities of a simulacrum are unspecified: Since there are no defined HD21- Solars it is the DMs decision which special abilities remain. This leaves the question: how do you get access to material components from a 44HD Solar?

If nothing suggests otherwise, they should have the same SLAs as the minimum HD version.

[Anthrowhale]

Hydras have this natural ability:
"Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round."

So the Zombie limitation doesn't matter other than essentially halving their movement. Standard action charge is available to move and attack with a single stan

Very good. If you prefer this, what would you throw away from the wizard build to pay for it WBL-wise?

If nothing suggests otherwise, they should have the same SLAs as the minimum HD version.

As far as I know, there is no savage progression for Solars, but the existing savage progressions strongly suggest that all special abilities and stat bonuses are only acquired at full HD with about half acquired at half HD.

[Eldariel]

Very good. If you prefer this, what would you throw away from the wizard build to pay for it WBL-wise?

Don't have the time to do optimization of this and see which is the best equipment but far as I see, you could probably cull some of the fat from the equipment:

Necklace of Adaptation: 9K - Fine, though Ioun Stone does have the advantage of actually not needing air to survive making the caster immune to many attacks. Then again, this is only needed for a non-modified body.
Str+6, Dex+6, Con+6, Int+6 Wis+4: 160K - Probably okay, would have to evaluate the value of the Strength and the Wis bonuses compared to using buffing spells. Potentially cullable, depending on what we're getting instead.
Int+5(inherent),Dex+1(Inherent),Con+1(Inherent): 192.5K - Again, the inherent +1 Con is considerable - couldn't we use Wish instead to earn non-Int ones?
Natural Armor+2: 8K - Fineish, but a source of Barkskin, such as a Simulacrum might be able to incidentally cover this one
Mithril Buckler+3: 10K - Hmm, Simulacrum with Cleric-casting could potentially get you Magic Vestment for this instead
Greater Rod of Extend: 24.5K - Fine
Spiked Gauntlet+1+Defending: 8K - Fine if we play the AC game
Boots of Speed: 12K - While Haste is available, I see what you're going for here. If we had a Rod of Lesser Quicken or a Quickened Haste or two prepared, the value of this goes down
Robe of Archmagi: 75K - The weakest item on the list, it's there basically for +2 spell penetration, but 75k for that and +4 Resistance and +1 Armor is a lot - SR18 isn't worth mentioning
Luckstone: 20K - This is a tad inefficient with Luckblade, but the Initiative bonus is kinda nice.
Orange (caster level+1), Pale Green(Competence+1), Dusty Rose(AC+1), Dark Blue(Alertness) Ioun Stones: 75K - Dark Blue is waste, you get Alertness from familiar proximity. Dusty Rose has to have its value evaluated based on how much we care about AC. The other two are nice
Eyes of Eagle: 2.5K - I'm not certain Spot investment is worth that much but then again, this is a minor enough investment. No strong opinion
Luckblade 22.5K - Yeah, definitely.
Ring of Freedom+Deflect+4: 72K - We could get Deflection from another source such as Magic Circle against... though this is +2 higher. Freedom is a definite.
Ring of Evasion: 25K - Potentially worthwhile but then again, do we really fear halved AOE damage that much? It's a useful effect but I'm not convinced HP damage is a big enough problem particularly with access to Resist Energy.
Permanency Arcane Sight 9.05K - Should we count the wealth cost of things we're paying with XP and earning back as we go?
Permanency See Invisibility 6.55K - See above
Permanency Heightened Symbol of Insanity 26.55K (On buckler) - See above

As far as I know, there is no savage progression for Solars, but the existing savage progressions strongly suggest that all special abilities and stat bonuses are only acquired at full HD with about half acquired at half HD.

Again, there's no proviso for lower HD versions of creatures having less SLAs; many monsters don't have LA either but that's a part of the savage progression. Savage progressions aren't used by monsters, only by PCs as a workaround to play creatures that would be too powerful at any given level. Metagame constructs of sorts. Halving caster level or something has no proviso either; higher HD versions of the same creature have the same CL for SLAs so the same should apply to lower HD ones as well.

We could also use Animate Object from Ravid + Permanency to create Gargantuan Objects; they have some interesting properties like the Trample that could be used to clean up trash.

[Anthrowhale]

Necklace of Adaptation: 9K - Fine, though Ioun Stone does have the advantage of actually not needing air to survive making the caster immune to many attacks. Then again, this is only needed for a non-modified body.

I'm murky on where the Ioun Stone has an advantage. With necklace of adaptation you are fine underwater or in a vacuum and you are explicitly immune to gases (including spell effects) and inhaled poisons. What additional attack form does the Ioun Stone block?

Int+5(inherent),Dex+1(Inherent),Con+1(Inherent): 192.5K - Again, the inherent +1 Con is considerable - couldn't we use Wish instead to earn non-Int ones?

There's a couple ways this could be handled. One way, is to say 'yes, you may have a 19th level wizard instead of 20th level', but then an item of +1 character level is probably(?) worth more than 55K. In a real game this is more iffy since experience is a river so my preferred solution is to simply count the inherent bonus against wealth-by-level regardless of how it is acquired. A wizard is certainly much better at breaking WBL than a fighter.

Natural Armor+2: 8K - Fineish, but a source of Barkskin, such as a Simulacrum might be able to incidentally cover this one

The best option seems to be a Ghaele with the plant domain, but even then the spell only lasts 2 hours, which seems to short.

Mithril Buckler+3: 10K - Hmm, Simulacrum with Cleric-casting could potentially get you Magic Vestment for this instead

A Planetar can grant a +4 bonus that lasts all day. However, Simulacrum ends up costing more---you need to gate an advanced planetar, then pay for the simulacrum itself. I updated to (a) gate a 28HD planetar (b) cast simulacrum.

Boots of Speed: 12K - While Haste is available, I see what you're going for here. If we had a Rod of Lesser Quicken or a Quickened Haste or two prepared, the value of this goes down

The rod of lesser quicken cost 35K instead of 12K so it seems nonviable. We could drop Control Undead in favor of Quickened Haste although that makes undead significantly more problematic, which matters since undead are the primary source of dangerous enemies.

Robe of Archmagi: 75K - The weakest item on the list, it's there basically for +2 spell penetration, but 75k for that and +4 Resistance and +1 Armor is a lot - SR18 isn't worth mentioning

I ditched it in favor of a cloak of resistance+5. This will worsen results against more advanced enemies considered earlier by a noticable notch.

Orange (caster level+1), Pale Green(Competence+1), Dusty Rose(AC+1), Dark Blue(Alertness) Ioun Stones: 75K - Dark Blue is waste, you get Alertness from familiar proximity. Dusty Rose has to have its value evaluated based on how much we care about AC. The other two are nice

Eliminated Dark Blue

Eyes of Eagle: 2.5K - I'm not certain Spot investment is worth that much but then again, this is a minor enough investment. No strong opinion

Spot seems pretty worthwhile to me, even with Foresight. Without Spot, many combats may start with you winning initiative and being forced to ready a possibly-inappropriate action or delay until after an enemy acts.

Ring of Evasion: 25K - Potentially worthwhile but then again, do we really fear halved AOE damage that much? It's a useful effect but I'm not convinced HP damage is a big enough problem particularly with access to Resist Energy.

Agreed, eliminated.

Permanency Arcane Sight 9.05K - Should we count the wealth cost of things we're paying with XP and earning back as we go?

I would---not doing so leads to obvious WBL busting tricks. This is the same discussion as per the inherent bonuses.

The adjustments above imply 78K is free. Putting that into AC is modestly helpful.

Again, there's no proviso for lower HD versions of creatures having less SLAs; many monsters don't have LA either but that's a part of the savage progression. Savage progressions aren't used by monsters, only by PCs as a workaround to play creatures that would be too powerful at any given level. Metagame constructs of sorts. Halving caster level or something has no proviso either; higher HD versions of the same creature have the same CL for SLAs so the same should apply to lower HD ones as well.

An 11HD Solar has no in-game description so it seems like any decision here is a houserule. The description of simulacrum "and the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD" looks like an invitation to houserule. And the savage progressions provide significant precedent.

Do you know of any published simulacrums-of-monsters in adventures?

Fortunately, you _can_ Gate an advanced planetar, collect a donation, and then cast Simulacrum.

We could also use Animate Object from Ravid + Permanency to create Gargantuan Objects; they have some interesting properties like the Trample that could be used to clean up trash.

I'm not seeing the value in cleaning up the trash. A wizard can do that fine with shapechange?

[Eldariel]

I'm murky on where the Ioun Stone has an advantage. With necklace of adaptation you are fine underwater or in a vacuum and you are explicitly immune to gases (including spell effects) and inhaled poisons. What additional attack form does the Ioun Stone block?

Well, one that comes to mind is Drowned. Also, theoretically something could disrupt the bubble of air though no proviso is given; the Ioun Stone would give no room for arguments there. That said, you're correct, it's quite niche and Shapechange lets you not breathe most of the time anyways as does Polymorph Any Object in many cases. So it shouldn't really matter.

There's a couple ways this could be handled. One way, is to say 'yes, you may have a 19th level wizard instead of 20th level', but then an item of +1 character level is probably(?) worth more than 55K. In a real game this is more iffy since experience is a river so my preferred solution is to simply count the inherent bonus against wealth-by-level regardless of how it is acquired. A wizard is certainly much better at breaking WBL than a fighter.

Fine, but this does make actually being able to produce effects rather more worthless than it is in real game since we're assuming both:
- Self-produced effects fully count against WBL.
- Services and items are freely available from NPCs at any price range.

I've yet to play a game where both are the case.

The best option seems to be a Ghaele with the plant domain, but even then the spell only lasts 2 hours, which seems to short.

A Planetar can grant a +4 bonus that lasts all day. However, Simulacrum ends up costing more---you need to gate an advanced planetar, then pay for the simulacrum itself. I updated to (a) gate a 28HD planetar (b) cast simulacrum.

Planetar with Plant-domain could do as much; they have access to domains from their deity so just Gate/Craft a Planetar of e.g. Ehlonna.

The rod of lesser quicken cost 35K instead of 12K so it seems nonviable. We could drop Control Undead in favor of Quickened Haste although that makes undead significantly more problematic, which matters since undead are the primary source of dangerous enemies.

It would have a bit more versatility, which is nice. The preparation for 4 encounters of each type feels a bit excessive so we should probably optimize this a bit further. I'll get to some ideas down the line.

I ditched it in favor of a cloak of resistance+5. This will worsen results against more advanced enemies considered earlier by a noticable notch.

We'll have to optimize the wealth to see if we should just stick to it after all since we're relying on SR: Yes spells so heavily.

Spot seems pretty worthwhile to me, even with Foresight. Without Spot, many combats may start with you winning initiative and being forced to ready a possibly-inappropriate action or delay until after an enemy acts.

Well, that does depend entirely on the settings but yes, there are cases where Spot is definitely worthwhile. Then again, could we outsource it? We already have Arcane Sight, and Greater Prying Eyes giving us some very powerful vision modes for a variety of circumstances including total and magical darkness and even minor barriers, and we can deploy pre-attack divinations if our quest is such that we are taking the initiative (be it defending location against X, acquiring item X, attacking enemy X or whatever); still, perhaps an underling with excellent Spot values would be available?

The adjustments above imply 78K is free. Putting that into AC is modestly helpful.

I'm thinking a Pearl of Power IX or Pearl of Power VIII to optimize our spell slots a bit would be desirable - it feels suboptimal to expect 4 encounters of the same type each day with no advance warning. Rod of Quicken Spell is another potentially good investment; Quickening our Tenser's allows for first round full attack when that's desired for (we can use Pounce from Leonal against enemies whose DR it penetrates to reasonable effect on the first round and then switch to a brawling form).

An 11HD Solar has no in-game description so it seems like any decision here is a houserule. The description of simulacrum "and the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD" looks like an invitation to houserule. And the savage progressions provide significant precedent.

Do you know of any published simulacrums-of-monsters in adventures?

Fortunately, you _can_ Gate an advanced planetar, collect a donation, and then cast Simulacrum.

...yeah, I recall some Simulacrum somewhere but I'll be damned if I can find it. I'll go through my Adventure archive with better time and figure it out. Planetar-buffing does give us some added options opening up Miracle too; this should allow us to bypass some magic items. We could get Magic Vestment +5 if we invested in Beads of Karma though that might not be worth it. Perhaps a 34/37 HD Planetar Simulacrum instead for innate CL 20? Or pass it the Ioun Stone for the duration of the buffs to get extra CL and go with a 32/36 HD one instead?

I'm not seeing the value in cleaning up the trash. A wizard can do that fine with shapechange?

Aye but it works even against rather high level enemies and it's always better to not put yourself at any risk since there are potentially unknown variables waiting to assail you. Doing things yourself always puts yourself at some risk even against seemingly weak opponents since you never know what else exists in the encounter beyond what's initially obvious.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, one that comes to mind is Drowned.

I'm still not following---it says

The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air... allowing him to breathe, even underwater...

How do you drown?

Fine, but this does make actually being able to produce effects rather more worthless than it is in real game since we're assuming both:
- Self-produced effects fully count against WBL.
- Services and items are freely available from NPCs at any price range.

I've yet to play a game where both are the case.

That's not precisely correct since a spellcaster need not respect the 3K gp limit (see the table). However, there is no limit on the price of a scroll so a fighter can buy an expensive scroll then hire a spellcaster to cast it for a modestly higher price.

Planetar with Plant-domain could do as much; they have access to domains from their deity so just Gate/Craft a Planetar of e.g. Ehlonna.

There's no allowance in the Gate spell for specifying the deity of the Planetar without naming a unique individual.

If you choose to call a kind of creature ... you may call ... a single creature (of any HD)... A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled.

Thus you can specify the kind of creature (Planetar) as well as the HD, but being any further specific requires invoking the unique individual clause which is unlikely to work and much riskier.

...unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate...unique beings cannot be controlled in any event.

Even the safe use of Gate here invites deific oversight via report from the Gated Planetar or the prayers of the Simulacrum. Hence, this tactic effectively constrains alignment to 'good'.

...still, perhaps an underling with excellent Spot values would be available?

The Greater Prying Eyes already satisfy that to a large extent. The problem is that they cannot communicate details in a timely manner so the wizard can end up personally stalled on acting.

I'm thinking a Pearl of Power IX or Pearl of Power VIII to optimize our spell slots a bit would be desirable - it feels suboptimal to expect 4 encounters of the same type each day with no advance warning. Rod of Quicken Spell is another potentially good investment; Quickening our Tenser's allows for first round full attack when that's desired for (we can use Pounce from Leonal against enemies whose DR it penetrates to reasonable effect on the first round and then switch to a brawling form).

A pearl of power seems ... ok? Maybe I don't know how to use it. A Rod of quickening seems pretty reasonable. I've updated to use that.

...yeah, I recall some Simulacrum somewhere but I'll be damned if I can find it. I'll go through my Adventure archive with better time and figure it out. Planetar-buffing does give us some added options opening up Miracle too; this should allow us to bypass some magic items. We could get Magic Vestment +5 if we invested in Beads of Karma though that might not be worth it. Perhaps a 34/37 HD Planetar Simulacrum instead for innate CL 20? Or pass it the Ioun Stone for the duration of the buffs to get extra CL and go with a 32/36 HD one instead?

No, but you can buy a scroll of gate at caster level 22, gate a 44HD solar, accept a donation of hair, and send it home. I've adjusted decisions to reflect that including Magic Vestment+5 on shield and shirt.

Aye but it works even against rather high level enemies and it's always better to not put yourself at any risk since there are potentially unknown variables waiting to assail you. Doing things yourself always puts yourself at some risk even against seemingly weak opponents since you never know what else exists in the encounter beyond what's initially obvious.

You may be right here although it feels inelegant to have a huge/gargantuan creature lumbering around. Large creatures can at least squeeze into medium spaces which are often encountered.

[Eldariel]

I'm still not following---it says How do you drown?

Drowned are a creature in MM3 that have an aura that causes you to begin drowning. Though arguably I suppose the clause "as if underwater" might not apply to you.

There's no allowance in the Gate spell for specifying the deity of the Planetar without naming a unique individual.

Thus you can specify the kind of creature (Planetar) as well as the HD, but being any further specific requires invoking the unique individual clause which is unlikely to work and much riskier.
Even the safe use of Gate here invites deific oversight via report from the Gated Planetar or the prayers of the Simulacrum. Hence, this tactic effectively constrains alignment to 'good'.

I suppose you could just get lucky then. That said, while it's wasteful, Miracle can replicate Barkskin so it doesn't matter overtly much.

The Greater Prying Eyes already satisfy that to a large extent. The problem is that they cannot communicate details in a timely manner so the wizard can end up personally stalled on acting.

If you aren't floating in a wall, you can keep one of them handy at all times while the other scouts, enabling you to essentially get real-time data from it - and you can read their actions to determine when you need to act for yourself. But yeah - I was thinking some creature with exceptional Spot

A pearl of power seems ... ok? Maybe I don't know how to use it. A Rod of quickening seems pretty reasonable. I've updated to use that.

Pearls of Power are basically there as an extra copy of any spell you've used all day. Thus it would essentially reduce the number of spells you need to prepare by 1 each, allowing you reuse the most critical one. If you need a spell you've already cast you can take a standard action to reacquire it - it's just an extra layer of redundancy and there for emergencies. Allows you to prepare more different spells while still having endurance.

No, but you can buy a scroll of gate at caster level 22, gate a 44HD solar, accept a donation of hair, and send it home. I've adjusted decisions to reflect that including Magic Vestment+5 on shield and shirt.

You could also just buff your CL a bit more to do this manually. It's probably cheaper to Limited Wish to replicate Death Knell for the Gate than to actually invest in a Scroll of it. Since your CL is 21 thanks to the Ioun Stone this would push you up to CL22. You can kill an already dying Rat or something - and Limited Wish doesn't really care about the "Evil" description.

You may be right here although it feels inelegant to have a huge/gargantuan creature lumbering around. Large creatures can at least squeeze into medium spaces which are often encountered.

True. You could keep it/them PAOd into a small one and dismiss as needed I guess. Much like the usual use for Shrink Item.

[Anthrowhale]

I suppose you could just get lucky then. That said, while it's wasteful, Miracle can replicate Barkskin so it doesn't matter overtly much.

W.r.t. getting lucky, there is some nontrivial cost w.r.t. Gate. Even rejection sampling to get something matching the wizard's lawful/chaotic alignment axis is spendy.

W.r.t. Miracle you should assume this:

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

makes routine application of miracle nonreliable. It's an invitation to houserule and a deity may come to not appreciate trivial interruptions. The good news here is that it doesn't matter much. The present build wins the AC game against everything except the Tarrasque and the cost of NA+2 is only 8K.

If you aren't floating in a wall, you can keep one of them handy at all times while the other scouts, enabling you to essentially get real-time data from it - and you can read their actions to determine when you need to act for yourself. But yeah - I was thinking some creature with exceptional Spot

The 25 word instruction limit is pretty limited. What instructions did you have in mind?

Pearls of Power are basically there as an extra copy of any spell you've used all day. Thus it would essentially reduce the number of spells you need to prepare by 1 each, allowing you reuse the most critical one. If you need a spell you've already cast you can take a standard action to reacquire it - it's just an extra layer of redundancy and there for emergencies. Allows you to prepare more different spells while still having endurance.

Pearl of power says:

The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl.

so it seems much less useful than the above.

You could also just buff your CL a bit more to do this manually. It's probably cheaper to Limited Wish to replicate Death Knell for the Gate than to actually invest in a Scroll of it. Since your CL is 21 thanks to the Ioun Stone this would push you up to CL22. You can kill an already dying Rat or something - and Limited Wish doesn't really care about the "Evil" description.

Then you lose XP which pushes you down a level.... overall, better to get the scroll. The good news is that you can cast from the scroll directly rather than hiring someone to do that.

True. You could keep it/them PAOd into a small one and dismiss as needed I guess. Much like the usual use for Shrink Item.

PAO is not dismissable so this costs a dispel magic, but it does makes things seem much more viable. Why not go for a Colossal animated object? You only need caster level 32 and a scroll can certainly be made that high in core. However, I'm not sure how to price the body, particularly if you want hardness 10 for trample.

[Eldariel]

W.r.t. getting lucky, there is some nontrivial cost w.r.t. Gate. Even rejection sampling to get something matching the wizard's lawful/chaotic alignment axis is spendy.

W.r.t. Miracle you should assume this: makes routine application of miracle nonreliable. It's an invitation to houserule and a deity may come to not appreciate trivial interruptions. The good news here is that it doesn't matter much. The present build wins the AC game against everything except the Tarrasque and the cost of NA+2 is only 8K.

How does that make Miracle unreliable? Is replicating a buff out of line for true neutrality? That seems to only apply to stuff actually opposed to your alignment/deity.

The 25 word instruction limit is pretty limited. What instructions did you have in mind?

Eh, yours works just fine.

Pearl of power says: so it seems much less useful than the above.

Fair - it's powerful but with this kind of a spell loadout it probably doesn't fully shine.

Then you lose XP which pushes you down a level.... overall, better to get the scroll. The good news is that you can cast from the scroll directly rather than hiring someone to do that.

*shrug* - count the XP used as a GP cost. Seems more fair.

PAO is not dismissable so this costs a dispel magic, but it does makes things seem much more viable. Why not go for a Colossal animated object? You only need caster level 32 and a scroll can certainly be made that high in core. However, I'm not sure how to price the body, particularly if you want hardness 10 for trample.

Animate Object is not a Wizard-spell (weird, right?) so you'd have to UMD it (doable but eh) or get your Planetar/Solar to read it (which works just fine of course). Normally the best way to get those as a Wizard is to use Shapechange > Ravid, which is capped at 20 CL.

[Anthrowhale]

How does that make Miracle unreliable? Is replicating a buff out of line for true neutrality? That seems to only apply to stuff actually opposed to your alignment/deity.

The simulacrum solar is not true neutral but rather <variable> good. Whether or not a deity grants any miracle seems to be up to the deity. A chaotic good deity may be inconsistent by nature. A lawful good one may have rules about how/where miracle can be used.

*shrug* - count the XP used as a GP cost. Seems more fair.

There isn't an in-game mechanism to do that? Anyways, the cost a scroll tends to be minor compared to the cost of XP/material components.

Animate Object is not a Wizard-spell (weird, right?) so you'd have to UMD it (doable but eh) or get your Planetar/Solar to read it (which works just fine of course). Normally the best way to get those as a Wizard is to use Shapechange > Ravid, which is capped at 20 CL.

Huh, I was confused.

For pricing an iron animated object (to access trample), the cheapest iron item seems to be an iron pot which costs 1gp for 20lbs. Figuring iron as x8 denser than water and starting with medium at 800lbs (costing 40 gp), this works out to: Large 320gp, Huge 2560 gp, Gargantuan 20480gp, Colossal 163840gp. Colossal in particular looks to expensive for cleanup under this pricing.

[Eldariel]

The simulacrum solar is not true neutral but rather <variable> good. Whether or not a deity grants any miracle seems to be up to the deity. A chaotic good deity may be inconsistent by nature. A lawful good one may have rules about how/where miracle can be used.

Either way, it seems the default is the Miracle is granted and there's possibility for the exception that a Miracle is refused if it's in gross violation of the deity's or alignment's agenda/nature.

There isn't an in-game mechanism to do that? Anyways, the cost a scroll tends to be minor compared to the cost of XP/material components.

You could follow magic item guidelines. Page 283 in the DMG states that 1 XP = 5 GP in price. Essentially you just pay the XP cost and skip out on the Scroll cost this way.

Huh, I was confused.

For pricing an iron animated object (to access trample), the cheapest iron item seems to be an iron pot which costs 1gp for 20lbs. Figuring iron as x8 denser than water and starting with medium at 800lbs (costing 40 gp), this works out to: Large 320gp, Huge 2560 gp, Gargantuan 20480gp, Colossal 163840gp. Colossal in particular looks to expensive for cleanup under this pricing.

Remember, Iron Pot is crafted so by Craft skill rules the raw materials would cost 1/3rd that amount. That said, it seems possible to circumvent this: we could create either the material or the whole object with a sufficient number of PAO applications followed by Fabricate, or we could cast Wall of Iron a bunch of times? That seems like the most efficient means without sinking stupid amounts of money to it - it's not an item with a list price anyways. You just want a huge chunk of iron/adamantine/whatever metal (or certain special woods).

[Anthrowhale]

Either way, it seems the default is the Miracle is granted and there's possibility for the exception that a Miracle is refused if it's in gross violation of the deity's or alignment's agenda/nature.

A "gross violation of the deity's or alignments' agenda/nature" is the kind of thing which results in losing access to all spells for a cleric.

The criteria for Miracle is a different test: "out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature". In particular, for regular success you want 'inline with the deity's (or alignment's) nature'. Whether or not application of Miracle[Barkskin] is inline with a random high level solar's deity seems inherently undetermined until you cast gate. Skimming through the deities a bit, I'd think it's inline with deities that have either protection or plant portfolios or domains. W.r.t. daily use of Miracle, I expect that mostly works with lawful or neutral deities whose interests you serve. A chaotic deity is probably less consistent about granting miracles but may provide a larger scope for what counts as 'inline'.

Remember, Iron Pot is crafted so by Craft skill rules the raw materials would cost 1/3rd that amount. That said, it seems possible to circumvent this: we could create either the material or the whole object with a sufficient number of PAO applications followed by Fabricate, or we could cast Wall of Iron a bunch of times? That seems like the most efficient means without sinking stupid amounts of money to it - it's not an item with a list price anyways. You just want a huge chunk of iron/adamantine/whatever metal (or certain special woods).

Wall of Iron is a factor of ~100 cheaper in terms of raw materials (i.e. 2000lbs /gp). Fabricate does not have a large enough volume so more conventional crafting is required for larger objects. I think we're at: Colossal=4915gp and Gargantuan=614gp which make the cost of permanency (16.55K) dominant. Since Animate Objects is only available to clerics in core, I believe the maximum caster level achievable is 25, hence Gargantuan is the best possible, and the Ravid works fine. The total cost is then 17.16K which seems reasonable for trash removal.

One concern: what do you plan to do to heal the animated object? The only mechanism I know in core is via Craft Construct which seems both costly and time consuming.

[Eldariel]

One concern: what do you plan to do to heal the animated object? The only mechanism I know in core is via Craft Construct which seems both costly and time consuming.

I guess you have to Polymorph it into a healable form and heal it through Shapechange or whatever. Wasteful but c'est a vie.

Clerics do have Death Knell and Hierophant and the spell is also open to bards... Red Wizard Bard mebbe? Or just 40 HD Solar as crafter.

[Anthrowhale]

I guess you have to Polymorph it into a healable form and heal it through Shapechange or whatever. Wasteful but c'est a vie.

I modified the build to have a garbage disposal unit. Also, I realized there was an additional trick: you can make a toy model then PAO it to colossal size. After that you can layer on a PAO to make it tiny again and then dispel the second PAO to recover the colossal form as needed. I'm assuming a wheeled form for speed to maximize trample.

Clerics do have Death Knell and Hierophant and the spell is also open to bards... Red Wizard Bard mebbe? Or just 40 HD Solar as crafter.

A Cleric 15/Heirophant 5 taking spell power 5 times then using an orange Ioun stone and prayer beads with Death Knell has a caster level of 31---not quite enough. The Red Wizard bard is actually a pretty good (if unusual) build compared to a Bard. Bard 7/Wizard (specialist) 1)/Red Wizard 5/Bard 7, justifies a scroll of Animate object @L32.

[Anthrowhale]

I was thinking through the impact of a support Solar on the fighter and am hesitating.

It seems RAW legal, but we have avoided a number of RAW legal tactics such as Leadership and UMD on the theory that these can be used by anyone. The support Solar seems to fall into that same category. In particular, having a support solar implies: will+1, AC+8, Immune Fear, HP+15, Refuge, Imbue with Spell ability, Wind Walk, Air Walk, Resist 30 for each element, Protection from each element, Hide from Undead, etc... And, let's not forget the 1/day wish and 3/day permanency.

If we want to categorically exclude this for the fighter, we should do similarly for the wizard since both are simply purchasing the requisite scrolls & spell castings.

[Luciandevine]

I know that this has probably already been asked and answered, but which books were allowed for this thought experiment? I haven't build a 3.5 Fighter in a while, but if I get my quintessential Fighters, killing a Pit Fiend at level 20 wouldn't even be...difficult.

[Anthrowhale]

I know that this has probably already been asked and answered, but which books were allowed for this thought experiment? I haven't build a 3.5 Fighter in a while, but if I get my quintessential Fighters, killing a Pit Fiend at level 20 wouldn't even be...difficult.

Core only (=DMG, PHB, MMI) with an exception for later rules that amend core rules.