OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

[SaintRidley]

Well, Hel sure looks really stupid here.

[eilandesq]

Something just occurred to me about Thor's personality and its effect on OotS dwarven religion.

The only way what we've seen so far is consistent with the revelation of the terms of the bet is that whatever Thor *honestly believes* to be an honorable death is by the terms of the bet an honorable death. No reasonably just arbiter would rule in favor of Thor in at least of a couple of the situations we've seen, and yet the implication is that he prevailed. Thor is, at least by divine standards, a drunken buffoon who believes some really ridiculous things, and that fact has apparently saved countless dwarves from Hel's clutches who probably would have been doomed if the standard had been, say, Heimdall's or Tyr's sense of what was honorable. Knowing that, why *wouldn't* dwarves adore Thor for his excessive drinking and other foolish behavior? His flaws are their ticket to the afterlife!

[Jasdoif]

Well, Hel sure looks really stupid here.

You mean with the different hair and dress? Maybe that was all the rage with godlings back when the world broke.

[dtilque]

Something like Loki going "OK guys, this was funny for a few centuries, but I think we're all tired of all this arguing over so many souls that only ever seem to go to Thor or Hel; can we all agree to nullify their wager now?" could've solved a lot of problems for everyone.

Probably can't. I'm going to guess that the bet is woven into the fabric of Reality. After all, they were making World 2.0 at the time. If so, they can't undo without undoing the world.

[Alex Warlorn]

Why is LOKI, the god of jackasses and jerks, the god who seems to always be the voice of sanity among the pantheons?

[Aquillion]

Why is LOKI, the god of jackasses and jerks, the god who seems to always be the voice of sanity among the pantheons?

Because he's clever enough to realize that the world is where he keeps all his stuff and that he doesn't really benefit from other people constantly knocking it over or causing pointless problems in it.

Also, given that he seems at least a little close to Thor and Odin, I wouldn't be surprised if they were a good influence on him at times, even if he's reluctant to admit it (just like he's been a bad influence on them.)

[Snails]

Why is LOKI, the god of jackasses and jerks, the god who seems to always be the voice of sanity among the pantheons?

He is sanity itself...up until the moment you trust him and he totally screws you over for the lulz.

My personal interpretation is that every obviously Good god voted against destroying the world and every obviously Evil god voted for destruction. Since that did not decide the issue what is left is the Neutralish gods. What will sway them? Probably not arguments about Good & Evil is my guess.

Loki is a pretty silver-tongued choice to promote to the task of making your case, assuming you believe he is actually with you, of course. If you cannot get Loki on your side, then picking a Lawful spokesmen is the surest way to pick up the votes that are not already in Loki's pocket.

I do not recognize that there are other possible interpretations of how the gods voted. I happen to strongly believe it is simply not The Giant's style to want to explore how a Good god explains away blowing up a planet full of people, on purpose. It is not necessarily that The Giant or some other author couldn't tell that tale in an interesting way, only it is not within the moral palette of the tale The Giant intends to tell here.

[SilverCacaobean]

Knowing that, why *wouldn't* dwarves adore Thor for his excessive drinking and other foolish behavior? His flaws are their ticket to the afterlife!

Because Heimdall or Tyr wouldn't have been drunk enough to agree to this nonsense in the first place.

[ORione]

He is sanity itself...up until the moment you trust him and he totally screws you over for the lulz.

My personal interpretation is that every obviously Good god voted against destroying the world and every obviously Evil god voted for destruction. Since that did not decide the issue what is left is the Neutralish gods. What will sway them? Probably not arguments about Good & Evil is my guess.

Loki is a pretty silver-tongued choice to promote to the task of making your case, assuming you believe he is actually with you, of course. If you cannot get Loki on your side, then picking a Lawful spokesmen is the surest way to pick up the votes that are not already in Loki's pocket.

I do not recognize that there are other possible interpretations of how the gods voted. I happen to strongly believe it is simply not The Giant's style to want to explore how a Good god explains away blowing up a planet full of people, on purpose. It is not necessarily that The Giant or some other author couldn't tell that tale in an interesting way, only it is not within the moral palette of the tale The Giant intends to tell here.

I'm pretty sure the Giant picked Heimdall and Loki in particular to give their statements to illustrate why a Good deity might choose to destroy the world, and why an Evil deity might choose to let it continue. Heimdall wants to protect everyone's souls, which is a Good motivation. The issue isn't split on the Good/Evil line.

Edit: Roy points out that there are Evil people who don't want to destroy the world.

[Kish]

Indeed, I don't think Rich is exploring how a Good deity explains blowing away a planet full of people, as much as he's simply...not treating Good for a god as anything remotely recognizable as Good to mortals. In the most recent strip we see three deities--two evil, one good (though drunk)--who don't think twice about betting with the eternal afterlives of mortal souls.

In other words: There's no exploration. There's just all the gods being incredibly callous no matter what the alignment on their character sheets. That's the way it is.

[Manty5]

In other words: There's no exploration. There's just all the gods being incredibly callous no matter what the alignment on their character sheets. That's the way it is.

There's a great deal of difference (in the OOTS universe) between being callous with people's lives and being callous with their souls.

Since Gods don't live mortal lives, they may not fully grok just how important a life is, since from their perspective death just brings the soul home to them. Happens all the time. Nothing to get excited about. they might say. Certainly the possibility of the unmaking of souls would seem the greater danger from a god's perspective.

Heck, Loki's defense of the status quo might be primarily motivated on how his tricks will be undone when the world is, not because he values lives.

[factotum]

Because he's clever enough to realize that the world is where he keeps all his stuff

Except he doesn't keep his stuff in the world? He's a God, his home is in the Outer Planes. He's already survived the destruction of one world by the Snarl (if we believe the story told by Shojo).

[Xaphan]

Couldn't wait for me to find the thread, could you? The conclusion was, "If it's philosophical, religion and politics are inevitable, so don't.". The Giant spoke personally on this one, and while his wording was as ambiguous and open to arbitrary interpretation (and therefore to arbitrary enforcement) as ever, he is actively discouraging any discussion deeper than "I think blue and yellow look nice together.".

Given that I have something of a personal stake in this, aesthetic philosophy essentially never deals with whether a particular thing is actually beautiful or not. Even when it does, it goes a lot deeper than a personal preference for particular colours. Or, indeed, a personal preference for anything else one might care to name.
(Also, whilst I don't want to preempt any mod decisions, I want to note that I have personally had several detailed metaphysical discussions about free will which didn't touch on religion or politics, even without talking about a different world).

[Ruck]

Note that you can "worship Thor" (as Cole believes that most dwarves do) without him actually being your patron. The Mechane's resident "gods-appeaser" does this.

How did you conclude from this strip that the man making the offerings worships Thor? Is there something I missed, or are you perhaps using a different definition of worship than I'm thinking of here?

In this particular case, it is because Durkon was vampirized. If he had not been vampirized, he would have died honorably and gone to Valhalla.

Maybe Hilgya also has to die "honorably", which just shows how messed up the rules were, if managing to get killed at the last second makes up for a lifetime of betrayal and murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think it "makes up" for anything-- such a person would clearly go to a CE afterlife; it just wouldn't be Hel's. Dying with honor just sends you to the standard plane you deserve, as opposed to going to Hel.

[Edric O]

If you're Loki's daughter and still haven't figured out that it's never a good idea to take any bet suggested by dad... then you're gonna have a Hel of a hard time.

[Avianmosquito]

If you're Loki's daughter and still haven't figured out that it's never a good idea to take any bet suggested by dad... then you're gonna have a Hel of a hard time.

10/10 would slow clap again.

[Nephrahim]

I do wonder what Loki's game in all this was. Maybe I'm just a sucker like Hel was but it seemed sincere when they were voting when he was telling Hel that excluding her "Wasn't the point of the bet."

Though if it is, it makes a TON of sense. In fact, it explains why he was leading the opposition in the first place. He knew exactly what would happen to the dwarf souls, but didn't want to tell the others because then they might try to change the "Wager" which would greatly reduce his influence. Instead he prefers to just keep the Status Quo.

[Mordaedil]

For more Norse Mythos if anyone is interested, I recommend checking out Valhalla Comics, they take some liberties with the surviving myths, but they do a pretty stellar job bringing them on the paper and they are all pretty entertaining to read (imo).

Made by some danish comic artists way back in the day, but it features nudity if that is something that bothers anyone. And uh, of course various dastardly deeds that are more acceptable in Denmark than it'd be in America.

PS: It features Odin pretending to be a sleuthing detective in a noir story trying to solve a murder case in Valhalla.

[Kardwill]

While the Giant has not ruled on this, I suspect that a cleric pledged to a god belongs to that god after death. So Hilgya won't go to Hel -- though her afterlife, being CE, will probably not be notably more comfortable.

If clerics go to their god's side rather than in the "generic alignment sorting place" (which sound kinda likely), I don't see why an evil god would be into punishing his followers for being evil, though. Hel can afford it because basically, the people getting to her domain are innocent bystanders that she despises and not "her people". But Loki? The souls getting to his domain are the people who devoted their life to him, his most faithful servants. OK, the domain of the "chaotic evil tricster god of Fire and broken promises" might be a dangerous, capricious and ruthless place, sure. But the souls getting there are ruthless, capricious and dangerous people, so they may not mind that much.
For Hel, those servants are the death giants and undead spirits like Greg, and none of the ones we saw looks particularly terrified at the prospect of staying/returning in hell.


Unless they somehow pissed off the boss. Then, eternity in said pissed-off-boss domain is probably pretty personal and hellish (more so than Hel who tyranize the dwarven souls for general principle, but mostly don't care since they are beneath her). The reaction of the frost giants clerics were telling : They were okay with the idea of dying in combat and getting dragged into Thrimm's hell, but they were terrified at the idea of their god getting its claws on them after they ****ed up or betrayed him.

[Manty5]

I don't see why an evil god would be into punishing his followers for being evil, though.

Same reason the escalator on the mountain of enlightenment was removed: The plane is full of souls who expect a certain fate.

Remember, belief maintains the god's realm, and they're on the elemental plane, now. they're moulding to it by virtue of being in spirit form (which doesn't explain Eugene, I know. But he hasn't entered the plane proper yet).

So just as LG souls struggle up the mountain for the level of enlightenment they're comfortable with, LE souls struggle in the hierarchy for power and CE souls struggle to subjugate and survive. It's what they did in life, it's what they were led to believe awaited them in death, and they reinforce it themselves once they get there because will shapes the planes.

Thanks, Will! Really great job you did there!

[elros]

So far, there are two gods that have been "screwed" by the way things are:
1) Hel, who is denied clerics because of the bet arranged by Loki,
2) The Dark One, who learned that "the whole of Goblin-kind was created for the sole purpose of providing Clerics with low-level threats to aid in their level progression".

Both want to redo the world because they have been wronged. So why wouldn't they want to turn the tables on the people who wronged them?

[Kardwill]

So far, there are two gods that have been "screwed" by the way things are:
1) Hel, who is denied clerics because of the bet arranged by Loki,
2) The Dark One, who learned that "the whole of Goblin-kind was created for the sole purpose of providing Clerics with low-level threats to aid in their level progression".

Both want to redo the world because they have been wronged. So why wouldn't they want to turn the tables on the people who wronged them?

I'd say the dwarves and goblins have been screwed massively more than their gods, though.
Frankly, if they knew the true nature of the bet, I'd expect the dwarves to try to rip their panthéon apart (or at least their temples) in a fit of drunken berserk rage. I mean, untold number of innocent (sick children, people caught in domestic accidents, disabled people...) have been diverted from their rightful afterlife and sent to Hel because Hel was greedy, Loki felt clever, and Thor was too drunk to understand the wager? And they have to pay the price...
Unfair doesn't even begin to describe it.

[JumboWheat01]

I've played enough games / read enough books / watched enough anime to know that glowing eyes is always bad and we should either kill her with (divine) fire or run for the nearest portal to another world.

[Psyren]

How did you conclude from this strip that the man making the offerings worships Thor? Is there something I missed, or are you perhaps using a different definition of worship than I'm thinking of here?

I'm using the definition that Hel used. People would "praise her name" in World 1.0 to stave off her wrath, much like the Mechane's storm guy made offerings to Odad for the same reason. I doubt the 1.0 mortals particularly revered her either, but it's common for evil gods to consider that kind of fearful CYA activity to be "worship" too, and gain power from it. See also Umberlee and Beshaba from Forgotten Realms - most common folk can't stand them, but will say a quick prayer to make sure they look the other way anyway.

[drazen]

I'd say the dwarves and goblins have been screwed massively more than their gods, though.
Frankly, if they knew the true nature of the bet, I'd expect the dwarves to try to rip their panthéon apart (or at least their temples) in a fit of drunken berserk rage. I mean, untold number of innocent (sick children, people caught in domestic accidents, disabled people...) have been diverted from their rightful afterlife and sent to Hel because Hel was greedy, Loki felt clever, and Thor was too drunk to understand the wager? And they have to pay the price...
Unfair doesn't even begin to describe it.

I'm still trying to figure out why dying of illness is dishonorable. It's not like a dwarf who dies of illness has acted dishonorably, or is somehow unworthy of respect.

Heck, societies based on honor seem to be quite fungible things. It is a really screwy system where a Lawful Good dwarf who honors his family commitments but dies of sphinx pox goes straight to Hel, while a Chaotic Neutral dwarf bard can be a jerk to his friends and family for years, but die charging at a conifer and get into a better afterlife.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm still trying to figure out why dying of illness is dishonorable. It's not like a dwarf who dies of illness has acted dishonorably, or is somehow unworthy of respect.

Heck, societies based on honor seem to be quite fungible things. It is a really screwy system where a Lawful Good dwarf who honors his family commitments but dies of sphinx pox goes straight to Hel, while a Chaotic Neutral dwarf bard can be a jerk to his friends and family for years, but die charging at a conifer and get into a better afterlife.

Dis- means not. Honorable means "bringing or worthy of honor".

Dying of illness is not, in and of itself, an honorable act. Modern English tends to use dishonorable to mean "actively showing a lack of honor", but in fact Hel is the default, a death must be actively honorable to avoid her. It is sufficient for the manner of death to meet the "not bringing or worthy of honor" idea of dishonorable for her to get the soul.

You need to have an ACTIVELY honorable death to avoid her.

As for the CN dwarf who dies fighting a conifer and gets a better after life than the LG who dies of disease, yes, this is an UNFAIR system. Rich has TOLD us that it's unfair! This is not intended to show a fair or reasonable mechanism for determining the fate of the souls of the dead. It is intended to show an unfair and unreasonable system.

[hroþila]

We should not lose sight of the fact that "pick a fight with a conifer to die with honour" is absurdly funny, and that this comic is still comedy. If you try to analyze such a setting according to real life, of course it's going to break down eventually.

[ackmondual]

I am pretty sure he said he didn't care.

Plus, it wouldn't stop there. I'm sure historians would also argue how ninjas are portrayed, for one.

[woweedd]

Indeed, I don't think Rich is exploring how a Good deity explains blowing away a planet full of people, as much as he's simply...not treating Good for a god as anything remotely recognizable as Good to mortals. In the most recent strip we see three deities--two evil, one good (though drunk)--who don't think twice about betting with the eternal afterlives of mortal souls.

In other words: There's no exploration. There's just all the gods being incredibly callous no matter what the alignment on their character sheets. That's the way it is.

Rich has made certain comment implying that the Gods view us the same way we view animals. Some are kind to us, others aren't, but they all eat us in the end. Keep in mind that Rich, in the real world, is a Vegetarian, so there's probably a message in that.

[factotum]

Same reason the escalator on the mountain of enlightenment was removed: The plane is full of souls who expect a certain fate.

The problem is, most Evil people clearly DON'T expect the whole "eternal punishment" fate, or else don't care about it, because otherwise they'd probably stop being Evil. That goes double, no, triple, for the clerics of evil Gods--why on earth would they provide a lifetime of service to their deity in exchange for being first on the toasting forks when they die?

This, of course, is one of the problems with trying to make the D&D cosmology work in a world where one-third of the population are Evil...