The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[White Blade]

Wouldn't rules on swarms only printed in the second monster manual have been superseded by the 3.5 rules on swarms when the monster manual came out?

I also wasn't near the Monster Manual to check. I found the quote eventually. Here's the SRD on swarms though:

A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

[danielxcutter]

This sounds awesome, i have to try it one day :D

You're very welcome.

[GreatWyrmGold]

@White Blade: That makes quite a lot of sense. To take it further: How about adding a pro-humanoid/anti-humanoid axis to the alignment system? For example, tanar'ri and obyrith demons would be at different sides of the axis, you could have nature vs. technology* deities, even some positive energy vs. negative energy debate could tie into that**. The pro-humanoid side would say it's fair to grant humanoids luck (to compensate for lesser natural power), the anti-humanoid side would variously claim it's not fair, or that the pro-humanoid side overcompensated, or something like that. Ties in well with the idea that humanoids are (currently) the dominant species of the Great Wheel, making it a really current debate. You could even go so far as to create generations of old, weak, pre-humanoid deities, and young, weak, post-humanoid deities in the anti-humanoid camp (who represent past and future shifts in alignment/multiplanar politics).[/SIZE]

Just ditching the moral alignments and going with more cosmic-level stuff sounds more interesting to me. Pro-mortals who consider such life inherently valuable versus anti-mortals who think they mess everything up, and maybe a few who are against life in general; static versus dynamic, maybe with dynamic being broken down into builders/tenders and those who just want to see chaos blossom; with or against a theoretical universal sovereign; for or against celestial cooperation; etc. There are probably more that you could add with the right lore (e.g, something thaumatological, how to handle/ignore a given curse, stance on some setting-changing event, etc).

Multiheaded requires a discernible head, which raises issues. I know there are some that explicitly say that swarms have no discernible anatomy. MMII? I'm not near my books.

I feel confident in saying that most DMs would rule that swarms don't have a discernible head. You might be able to convince them to play a swarm of multi-headed bats, if you could answer the obvious question of "Why?"

[White Blade]

@White Blade: That makes quite a lot of sense. To take it further: How about adding a pro-humanoid/anti-humanoid axis to the alignment system? For example, tanar'ri and obyrith demons would be at different sides of the axis, you could have nature vs. technology* deities, even some positive energy vs. negative energy debate could tie into that**. The pro-humanoid side would say it's fair to grant humanoids luck (to compensate for lesser natural power), the anti-humanoid side would variously claim it's not fair, or that the pro-humanoid side overcompensated, or something like that. Ties in well with the idea that humanoids are (currently) the dominant species of the Great Wheel, making it a really current debate. You could even go so far as to create generations of old, weak, pre-humanoid deities, and young, weak, post-humanoid deities in the anti-humanoid camp (who represent past and future shifts in alignment/multiplanar politics).

*The distinction isn't so useful IRL, but, like the law/chaos distinction, it's consistent enough for D&D .
**I like to map good/evil to positive/negative energy, but that does require a lot of reworking of fiends, because they are still living creatures, harmed by negative energy.

I'm sorry I didn't notice this before. I'd say that I think pro civilization and anti-civilization would probably be a very real debate among gods (though I dislike drawing the line on "humanoid"). I think that anti-civilization gods would represent a strong contingent. Builders vs. Breakers might make sense of the standard D&D setting, with lots of "dungeons" being old school bunkers layered with traps and resource vaults. Of course, you could easily fold this back into the law/chaos distinction.

I don't know a ton about the Great Wheel, but I think the gods being made up of either the "monster" gods, who represent and are worshipped throughout the areas PCs adventure into, or the "civilized" gods, who rule over what mortals build and harvest, is an entirely natural one; albeit that it is the same sort of mythology that underwrote most of the imperial powers of history.

[Nifft]

I'm sorry I didn't notice this before. I'd say that I think pro civilization and anti-civilization would probably be a very real debate among gods (though I dislike drawing the line on "humanoid"). I think that anti-civilization gods would represent a strong contingent. Builders vs. Breakers might make sense of the standard D&D setting, with lots of "dungeons" being old school bunkers layered with traps and resource vaults. Of course, you could easily fold this back into the law/chaos distinction.

The distinction I make is generally Cycles vs. Progress, because I prefer a debate where both sides have a valid point.

But I think this is not the thread to discuss the topic further.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But I think this is not the thread to discuss the topic further.

No, but this is.

[Inevitability]

Tarrasque

Rather than write a long post about epic levels, CR/HD imbalances, and the viability of warrior-types past level 5, let me just point out that the tarrasque is a big pile of numbers that is outclassed either qualitatively (demilich, elder titan) or quantitatively (living vault, hecatoncheires) by anything that could reasonably be expected at level 48.

-0 LA for the monster with what has to be the highest number of hit dice I've rated so far.

[Thurbane]

...not much to say here. Pretty sweet combat brute, but far too many RHD to be playable. Agree with LA -0.

[javcs]

48 RHD. CR 20 - that starts as an unfavorable combination.

20ft base land speed.
Exclusively melee abilities.
Terrible AC.



It's honestly not all that impressive at level 20. I mean, it's not easy to kill at low optimizations levels, but it also can't do all that much.

[Nifft]

No argument against -0 ("don't play this").

[ExLibrisMortis]

Might be persuaded to play it at ECL 21. LA -0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The tarrasque is a neat idea—an immortal, ridiculously-powerful monster which wakes up at arbitrary times (e.g, when your epic-level party needs a good challenge). Sadly, as with everything involving WotC's estimation of high-level spellcaster ability, it doesn't work so well in practice.

[Inevitability]

Tendriculos

More proof that monster traits at WotC are decided by randomly matching abilities and types: the tendriculos is a giant plant with regeneration overcome by bludgeoning damage. I feel like this monster's name rhymes with 'ridiculous' for a reason.

It's chassis isn't that great either. 9 plant RHD, four negative stat modifiers and a low movement speed for something Huge-sized. High strength and dexterity are welcome, as is the 15 ft. reach, but only three natural attacks are lackluster again, especially when the best one will most likely end up as a mouthpick-holder.

As for special abilities, there's Regeneration 10 (overcome by either bludgeoning or acid damage), Improved Grab (technically works with all three attacks, but requires a free mouth), and Swallow Whole, which comes with a spiffy paralysis effect (though being restricted to swallowed creatures hurts its power) and 2d6 acid damage a round (that's right, one of the monster's two specific weaknesses is continuously produced in its stomach).

All things considered, I don't think the tendriculos is worthy of a positive LA. It's a big dumb melee brute that focuses on a sub-par strategy (grappling) with bad hit dice and frankly no real advancement options I can see. If you want to be huge and strong so badly, there's other options out there. Perhaps a +0 could be argued, but I don't see it to be honest.

[ZamielVanWeber]

So:
Plant type is extremely valuable as it comes with a pile of immunities (mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorph, and critical hits [and thus sneak attack]). Plant HD are sub-par; literally slightly worse cleric HD.
Net stat mods are hot: it nets +10 but the distribution is AWFUL. Penalties to all mental stats make even martial adepts seem unpalatable.
Huge size is a mixed bag, although a tendriculous is one feat away from reach 20, which is cool at least.
Improved Grab is nice but that mental penalty makes it hard to use a power like expansion to increase the effectiveness of it.
Overall it seems highly specialized but usable: +0 seems right by me with a warning not to use it in campaigns that focus heavily on dungeon crawls.

[Nifft]

[CENTER]Tendriculos

Str +18, Dex -2, Con +12, Int -8, Wis -2, Cha -8 => net +10

Yeah you'll have to devote point-buy points to Int and Cha, but at least there's a net positive payout.

Plant traits are great. This one is not mindless, but retains immunity to mind-affecting effects. Immunity to crits, stunning, poisons, etc. and it doesn't sleep -- it's the perfect campground guard.

9 HD is a lot, though.


I guess the way to go with this guy might be:

Psion 1 then right into Slayer 10. For better manifesting but no special disguise super-power, consider Ardent -- though with only one level, you'd only get 2 mantles, and that would kinda suck.

You'll end up with BAB +16 and 10th level manifesting (14th with a feat).


Another way to go would be Swordsage, which gets to start with 3rd level maneuvers thanks to your 9 RHD => 4 IL. Unarmed variant presumably because armor is uncertain for a Huge plant, and because your tentacles only deal 1d6 base damage so Monk progression is an improvement.


Yeah LA +0 seems valid.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Overall it seems highly specialized but usable: +0 seems right by me with a warning not to use it in campaigns that focus heavily on dungeon crawls.

I don't know about +0 for something that is usable only for one thing, and I don't think it does that particularly well. I'm also questioning its ability to talk (it does have 3 intelligence and a mouth, but you know, vocal chords...), it can't manipulate fine objects, and although there's a lot to be said for outdoor adventures, I feel that dungeons, or more generally, the indoors, are important in many games. Tendriculi can't enter houses for two reasons: they're too big, and they can't manipulate doorknobs.

Secondly, and I know I bring this up a lot, it doesn't even qualify for most PrCs or übercharger tricks, because it doesn't have skill points or class skills. For example, Leap Attack requires 8 ranks Jump. Tendriculi don't qualify, because they have 6 ranks in Jump, at the most, and then only by spending all their skill points (unless they put an 18 in intelligence, or get it as a class skill, which is all doable, but it takes away from other areas). Twisted Charge to get reliable charges? 5 ranks in Balance and Tumble, good luck with that. Drunken Master for the same trick? Qualify by burning all your skill points, at level 10.

Looking at this and the ogre mage, which got LA +2 for an ECL of 7, I see zero reasons to play a tendriculos. LA -0 is good.



@Nifft: You're using t2/t1 classes to turn a bad chassis into something t3. I don't think that speaks for the strengths of the tendriculos as much as it speaks for the strength of full manifesting. To make a proper comparison, consider a tendriculos psywar in comparison to, say, an ogre psywar. Oh, and you forgot that the egoist is INT-based, so you'd need a starting 18 to not be able to manifest any powers, because you'd still only have 10 int.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I don't know about +0 for something that is usable only for one thing, and I don't think it does that particularly well. I'm also questioning its ability to talk (it does have 3 intelligence and a mouth, but you know, vocal chords...), it can't manipulate fine objects, and although there's a lot to be said for outdoor adventures, I feel that dungeons, or more generally, the indoors, are important in many games. Tendriculi can't enter houses for two reasons: they're too big, and they can't manipulate doorknobs.

There is no mention of its conversational abilities at all, so I see a good argument for it cannot talk. It has tendrils so I disagree that it cannot manipulate fine objects; octopi can after all and we explicitly know the tendriculous can grab things of fine size and move then.

Secondly, and I know I bring this up a lot, it doesn't even qualify for most PrCs or übercharger tricks, because it doesn't have skill points or class skills. For example, Leap Attack requires 8 ranks Jump. Tendriculi don't qualify, because they have 6 ranks in Jump, at the most, and then only by spending all their skill points (unless they put an 18 in intelligence, or get it as a class skill, which is all doable, but it takes away from other areas). Twisted Charge to get reliable charges? 5 ranks in Balance and Tumble, good luck with that. Drunken Master for the same trick? Qualify by burning all your skill points, at level 10.

I was thinking more of a lockdown strategy. With that massive STR it can easily abuse the Knockdown feat: grab the savage species feat that gives +5 reach at no cost and throw in combat reflex and you can hold down a huge area easily. If you give it a level of fighter and use a spiked chain that is a 40 foot threatened area.

[javcs]

I concur with LA -0 for the Tendriculous.

Any build that makes it useable/worthwhile is going to be such a narrow niche build, requiring significant system mastery/optimization to attain.

Also, the party Ranger and Druid will hate you because their animal companions won't go near you. This might also affect the party arcanist's familiar, and the Paladin's Mount.


But seriously ... not worth it. There are better ways to get most of what you get from a Tendriculous. I think the only ability that's not fairly trivial to get or do better than elsewhere is the Paralysis on Swallowed Whole creatures.

[Nifft]

If you give it a level of fighter and use a spiked chain that is a 40 foot threatened area.

"Plants use chainsaw to fell YOU."

[ExLibrisMortis]

I was thinking more of a lockdown strategy. With that massive STR it can easily abuse the Knockdown feat: grab the savage species feat that gives +5 reach at no cost and throw in combat reflex and you can hold down a huge area easily. If you give it a level of fighter and use a spiked chain that is a 40 foot threatened area.

Hmmyeah I don't disagree in principle, but the spiked chain would have to be mouthpick, and I'm not sure the extra reach would apply to bite attacks (by RAW, okay, but RAI it applies to tentacles, feelers, and pseudopods, which bites are not). Either way, I'd rather go with an ogre mage with expansion, who would be sitting at +7 str mod against the tendriculos' +9, but with Gargantuan size, and so many other benefits. Hell, even a plain ogre psywar would be a great joy after being told to play a tendriculos.

[Thurbane]

"Plants use chainsaw to fell YOU."

Spoiler

Show

I see what you did there!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hmmyeah I don't disagree in principle, but the spiked chain would have to be mouthpick, and I'm not sure the extra reach would apply to bite attacks (by RAW, okay, but RAI it applies to tentacles, feelers, and pseudopods, which bites are not). Either way, I'd rather go with an ogre mage with expansion, who would be sitting at +7 str mod against the tendriculos' +9, but with Gargantuan size, and so many other benefits. Hell, even a plain ogre psywar would be a great joy after being told to play a tendriculos.

Getting a tendriculous to use expansion is not too bad either since its Wis penalty is low and getting into War Mind is not particularly painful. Also the tendriculous's insane attack range cannot be shut down by anti-magic stuffs (such as dispel magic) and tendriculous comes off with a nice pile of immunities and plant HD (which are comparable to giant HD) although the overall higher ECL is a problem.

I feel it is pretty playable in its niche (aside from dungeoneering requiring the DM to make massive everything) and the niche is viable enough thanks to some of the things tendriculous specifically possesses.

[Malimar]

The main deals with the tendriculos are the Plant type with all its lovely immunities (worth a couple levels), Huge size (worth a couple levels), regeneration (worth maybe a level, as it is bypassed by a common damage type, including common bite and slam natural attacks), and +10 total stat bonuses (worth a level or two). Repelling Animals and other Plants (though listed in the fluff section, let's treat it as crunch) is a mixed bag -- you'll avoid many combats, but the Druid can't have an animal companion, so that's probably not worth adding or subtracting anything.

So without taking into account any of the negatives at all, that still makes this an appropriate choice at ECL7ish... which means its LA should be like -2ish. In that situation, LA+0 (albeit very weak at that level, use with caution but not bad enough to be completely unplayable) would be maybe justifiable, barely.

BUT, given that there are a few downsides (as mentioned by others), I'd say yeah, -0 is appropriate.

[TotallyNotEvil]

[CENTER]Tendriculos
2d6 acid damage a round (that's right, one of the monster's two specific weaknesses is continuously produced in its stomach).
.

Man, I always forget my Human Acid Immunity.

[Remuko]

Gonna have to throw my hat in for -0. Its just got too many HD and too many stat penalties.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Man, I always forget my Human Acid Immunity.

Ditto. Most creatures which aren't immune to a acid but still need it to digest their food have some kind of specialized defense on the inside. (Darwin takes care of the exceptions pretty fast.)

[Inevitability]

Thoqqua

Because apparently, having lots of low-level elementals is still more important than thought-out abilities or high-level monsters that's not a dragon or outsider.

Anyway, these magical heat drills have an okay ability array, with a net +6 to stats. Medium size is pretty okay, high natural armor is very nice (but compensated for by the lack of wearable armor), and the fire subtype is probably a net gain. A burrow speed is okay, but hardly unattainable by other means.

3 elemental HD suck, though, as does the lack of limbs. Having only a single slam won't do your damage output any good, even if it comes with 2d6 fire damage and a burn effect attached. The (arguable) ability to charge without actually moving might come in handy for some builds, though.

+0 or -0? In the end, thoqquas are kind of lacking in the versatility department, being little more than a burrowing beatstick. Contrast the humble rogue, who has comparable damage output, much more useful skills, and better HD, and I think -0 is justificable. Do discuss, though.

[Thurbane]

"When he leaps amidst us
With combustive dance
All shall bear the branding
Of his thermal lance,
Cauterizing masses
Melting into one
Only when there's order
Will his job be done."

[WhamBamSam]

Because apparently, having lots of low-level elementals is still more important than thought-out abilities or high-level monsters that's not a dragon or outsider.

Anyway, these magical heat drills

I remember running the Thoqqua encounter in Sunless Citadel for a group of newbies. I showed a picture, and gave some further information as a result of a high knowledge check from the Factotum. The party immediately concluded that they were fighting "flaming s*** d***s."

I think the Thoqqua is good enough for LA+0. Tremorsense, burrow speed, stat boosts, and special charging seems like enough to hold up at ECL 3.

[Nifft]

It's not called out with a Bold Special Name (Ex), but Thoqqa have the nifty ability to Charge without moving.

This may enable Ubercharger shenanigans in some situations which would not otherwise support such shenanigans.

Pros:
- Ability scores
- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
- Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
- Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.
- Stationary Charge
- Burrow speed
- Natural armor +7

Cons:
- Only one natural weapon; no arms or hands in artwork.
- Cold vulnerability.


So, what can we do with this guy?

Unarmed Swordsage for snake-style kung-fu, starting off with one level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for in-place Pounce.

Totemist with Girallon Arms for grappling + Heat fun; again you want at least one Pounce Barbarian level, too.