The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Caelestion]

The thoqqua, like the ravid, is another immigrant from the Planescape setting.

[zlefin]

Looks like a +0 to me; a bit hard to work with, but solid stat boosts and some useable abilities. It's good enough that at least for some builds it will work quite well.
and you can get a very high AC early on which can be handy.

[javcs]

I'm a firm -0.
No manipulators. No limbs. No ability to speak.
Always on contact fire damage complicates healing/buffing and wearing items.



It's questionable whether or not it works with Totemist/other meldshapers, because soulmelds occupy magic item slots, and it's missing hands, arms, legs, and feet.

[Blue Jay]

Always on contact fire damage complicates healing/buffing and wearing items.

I'm with you on the -0, but I feel like the thing that really complicates item-wearing is the lack of actual body parts. You're totally at your DM's mercy when it comes to determining what body slots you'd even get: maybe just waist, throat and head, and possibly shoulders.

It's questionable whether or not it works with Totemist/other meldshapers, because soulmelds occupy magic item slots, and it's missing hands, arms, legs, and feet.

Well, Magic of Incarnum actually addresses this in the Monster chapter. Creatures with no limbs don't have arms or hands chakras, but they still get head and shoulders, and they can count their tail end as their feet chakra. Also, all totemist soulmelds can occupy the totem chakra, which isn't associated with a body part, and binding to the totem chakra doesn't occupy a magic item slot. So, totemist is still functional for a thoqqua, though your options are obviously still a bit more limited than they would be for a humanoid.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Always on contact fire damage complicates healing/buffing and wearing items.

Cure moderate wo-OW! ...Cure serious wounds!

[Thurbane]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

[javcs]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

Iron golems heal from magical fire attacks.

Maybe some kind of fire subtype elementals or outsiders, appropriate type of mephit maybe? But those might require actual flames.

[Daedroth]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

Iron golem :D

[WhamBamSam]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

Ash Rats from MMII and Giant Striders from Monsters of Faerun. The latter actually have a LA despite an Int of 1 (they got it in the update document just like the Hairy Spider did). As I recall, neither is exactly like Mechanatrix Electricity Healing, and that they instead get the benefit of a Cure Light Wounds spell when they would otherwise take fire damage.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Over the past week or two, an amusing discussion in one of the spinoff threads went in a silly direction that some of you might be interested in. Its roots start here, if you're interested.

[Nifft]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

Mephits get fast healing from various conditions.

Fire, Magma, and Glass Mephits all require some fire to gain their fast healing.

Not really the same thing but it's close, and it's a playable race (unlike Iron Golems which are fun but not as PCs).

[White Blade]

Is there any races that heal from fire the way Mechanatrix heal from electricity?

Away from books, but I think the Phoelarch do.

[Inevitability]

Titan

Titans, being the 20 RHD outsiders they are, are very hard to assign a LA to, if only because of the sheer number of abilities they get. To somewhat simplify things, I'll be comparing them to balors, those other 20 RHD exemplars of chaos.

The most obvious difference is size: balors are Large whereas titans are Huge. In terms of ability scores, titans definitely come out on top. Their land speed is higher, but they can't fly like balors can. Natural armor is equal. A titan's SR is 4 points over the fiend's, but has no energy immunities or telepathy and worse DR. Balors also have slightly stronger natural attacks, as well as much stronger special weapons.

Magic-wise, I think balors are better off as well compared to the kinda weak list of SLAs titans get. The titan's stronger 1/day abilities are more than compensated for by at-will True Seeing and Summon Demon, in my opinion (unless your DM allows Gate cheese, in which case all bets are off anyway).

All things considered I'm not sure I'm convinced the titan deserves +0 LA. -0 and +0 both seem possible: for now I'll go with +0 because it's still a versatile and strong ultra-outsider.

[ViperMagnum357]

Definitely +0 for a Titan. Outsider HD and, for once, acceptable at-will SLAs on par with lesser spell lists. However, the CL on the SLAs concerns me-a specified caster level means the SLAs will not scale past 20HD, and that will get noticeable around ECL 25-26.

[J-H]

The RHD rule out being a casting class, but I would take a Titan 20/Warblade 1 up against almost any mundane low-epic character and expect the Titan to win. It has a number of abilities that are normally unavailable (without major work) to non-casters:
-Greater Dispel
-Invisibility/purge
-Etherealness (no ghost touch weapon? too bad, you miss 50% of the time)
-At-will healing, 1/day greater restoration,
-Decent suite of 9th-level spells (Gate, maze, SNA9, meteor swarm) that grant good minions or major versatility boosts.
-Auto-quickened at-will Chain Lighting for 20d6 AOE damage with a 1200' maximum range. IF it sees them coming, the Titan can kite and chain-lightning almost anything that lacks Evasion to death with its 60' move speed.

On top of that, it has great stat bonuses, 15' reach, good DR, and more Natural Armor than any player aside from a druid or dragon will normally get.

I am probably going to be in the minority here, but I think LA+1 or LA+2 is appropriate.

[javcs]

Titans are borderline.

It can get a +0 on the merits of its magical abilities, but there's no path to improve them. That's a serious problem.

At Level 20, it's magical abilities are roughly comparable to a Warlock 20. It's capable of being a competent melee combatant, but that's of relatively low value at this level, and only declines further, relatively speaking.
However, once each levels up, the Warlock 21 can be a whole lot better, depending on which epic warlock feat gets taken (Shadowmaster).


I really don't know how you would go about advancing a Titan.
You could maybe try talking the DM into letting the Charm Monster SLA meet the Charm Person SLA prereq of Mindbender, but ... eh?

[Celestia]

+0 is good. -0 is for things that are either horribly weak or straight up unplayable. Titans are at least competent, even if they're not the best of the best.

[zlefin]

titan looks like +0 or +1
the balance point gets kinda weird here, which makes it hard to assess. the ever growing divergence between martials and casters; plus the fact that it's about to enter epic makes it hard to assess. titan looks like it would compare favorably to many martials; it has huge and awesome stat boosts, which will greatly help out its martial potential, and opens up a lot of other things. good built-in slas.
I find it really hard to figure on a number.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It has a number of abilities that are normally unavailable (without major work) to non-casters:

I'm not going to dispute the list, but why would you compare a titan, which is clearly a gishy type, to a non-caster, instead of a bardsader or Ordained Champion-type build? Not necessarily a full caster, but at least something with access to 6th or 8ths and a decent caster level. Suddenly, the comparison is much less flattering. Titans still aren't bad, but they don't need more than LA +0.

[Nifft]

The RHD rule out being a casting class, but I would take a Titan 20/Warblade 1 up against almost any mundane low-epic character and expect the Titan to win. It has a number of abilities that are normally unavailable (without major work) to non-casters:
-Greater Dispel
-Invisibility/purge
-Etherealness (no ghost touch weapon? too bad, you miss 50% of the time)
-At-will healing, 1/day greater restoration,
-Decent suite of 9th-level spells (Gate, maze, SNA9, meteor swarm) that grant good minions or major versatility boosts.
-Auto-quickened at-will Chain Lighting for 20d6 AOE damage with a 1200' maximum range. IF it sees them coming, the Titan can kite and chain-lightning almost anything that lacks Evasion to death with its 60' move speed.

On top of that, it has great stat bonuses, 15' reach, good DR, and more Natural Armor than any player aside from a druid or dragon will normally get.

I am probably going to be in the minority here, but I think LA+1 or LA+2 is appropriate.

Note that the quickened spell-like ability only works 3/day, so it's not actually as good as you fear.

Other than that, I agree that those are good capabilities -- but to me they look like fair play vs. what other level 20 characters can do, especially since level 20 puts Shapechange on the table.

They're more like a primary caster gish than like a BSF, so that's how I'd evaluate them. And so far as I can see, a Titan can't do anything that a competent gish couldn't do.

Verdict: LA +0.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Titan is pretty silly IMHO. It had huge stats, strong SLAs, amazing HD and cam even negate the downside of being huge at little cost to itself. No way this thing is -0. That being said, a few things occur:
1) It scales awfully into epic. Getting those caster levels on its SLAS up will be hard and starting a class over from scratch except wit epic bonuses is bleh.
2) Very little flexibility. Two similarly aligned titans will only really be different in feats and those can only do so much, especially since it misses out on some of the (IMHO) really cool monstrous feats.
3) Difficulty specializing. Some of those SLAS are amazing, but the titan will struggle to get those to keep up with someone who really wants to be good at the thing the SLA does. Titan in turn will have better melee but the other person will have casting to back them up.

I guess a better way of putting it is that titan is extremely strong but very much a known quantity. If the DM can figure out how to deal with them then there is really no room for the titan player to pull a rabbit out of their hat (aside from regular Gate shenanigans, but plenty of classes can do that anyways).

+0 seems fine here.

[zlefin]

build-wise for a titan; my assumption would be that with its huge base stats bonuses (then augmented even further with the +stat items and tomes), it's basically going to use a dip build focused on getting the x stat to y bonus things, plus any other random utility effects it can get.

to a fair extent a titan's effect in a game would depend on the optimization level (at least that's my impression); mostly the titan just gets bigger numbers, at a low op table where big numbers matter, it'll shine; at highre op tables those big numbers mean very little.
or maybe it's just that the titan is a high floor/low ceiling choice.

[White Blade]

build-wise for a titan; my assumption would be that with its huge base stats bonuses (then augmented even further with the +stat items and tomes), it's basically going to use a dip build focused on getting the x stat to y bonus things, plus any other random utility effects it can get.

to a fair extent a titan's effect in a game would depend on the optimization level (at least that's my impression); mostly the titan just gets bigger numbers, at a low op table where big numbers matter, it'll shine; at highre op tables those big numbers mean very little.
or maybe it's just that the titan is a high floor/low ceiling choice.

The best x to y is Charisma stat really isn't high enough to do that any better than a Unicorn or a Succubus. Alternatively, INT, but the same statement goes with other lower hanging races.

I tend to agree though that +0 is appropriate. A well designed Titan can function fine.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'd say it's easily comparable to a T2 caster, before you factor in one of the best chassis in the SRD.

+32 STR, +2 DEX, +28 CON, +10 INT, +18 WIS, +14 CHA. Full BAB, all good saves, 8+INT skill points, SR 32 (so pretty good against even a CL20 caster), DR 15/Law, +19 NA. Those are some stupidly huge numbers.

Now factor this:
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—chain lightning (DC 23), charm monster (DC 21), cure critical wounds (DC 21), fire storm (DC 24), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 22), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 22); 3/day—etherealness, word of chaos (DC 22), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day—gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based

At wills are comprehensive and potent, especially Greater Dispel, but I don't think it's any worse than an equal-leveled sorcerer considering 3/day Etherealness, Word of Chaos, SNA IX and the 1/day Maze, Meteor Swarm and Gate. Yeah, can't cherry pick obscure spells, but compare it to a PHB Sorc, or even your non-forumite one, and the Titan will probably come ahead by a good margin.

For crying out loud, that's nine 9th level spells per day, plus 3 of one of the strongest 7th levels around, plus either another 9th level or Greater Reatoration. Your at wills make Warlocks cry, your melee makes barbarians cry.

It can more or less answer to any situation with its SLAs, it's all-around highly resistant, considering its saves, huge stat boosts, SR and the wealth of a 20th+ level player. It's awesome at skills due to 8+INT and having +10 racial to it, the DCs of the SLAs all be hitting mid-30s to low 40s.

Closest thing I can think of is a Gestalt Barbarian/Sorcerer with very high point buy, and even then, the Titan comes ahead in a number of aspects.

Would I allow it in a 20th level game? Probably, but that's considering everyone else would be rocking PrC capstones and whatnot.

I'd feel more comfortable with an LA of +1.

[Inevitability]

Majority seems to favor +0 (and the other -0 and +1 votes cancel each other out to some degree), so LA shall be kept at +0.

[Inevitability]

Tojanida

The tojanida is one of those things that's just too weird to make jokes about. Where to even start? Its ridiculous arrangement of limbs? Its strange eye-things? Its deformed mouth? (or at least, I hope that is its mouth)

Ah well, let's just start the assignment.

Juvenile

3 outsider RHD, small size, and bonuses to each stat that's not intelligence or charisma (with the former being average and the latter incurring a small penalty). Natural attacks are two weak claws and a quite strong bite. As is to be expected of an aquatic outsider, its swim speed is high. Sadly, land speed is a joke. Immunity to two energy types and resistance to two more is useful, and to a lesser degree all-around vision is as well.

As for offensive special abilities, there's improved grab (of questionable use on a small creature) and the ability to either duplicate Fog Cloud (underwater) or briefly blind foes with ink (out of the water). The blinding may be worth it as a short-range debuff, the cloud will hamper your teammates as well.

Are juveline tojanidas unplayable? I don't think so. The chassis is pretty neat compared to its cost, and especially in more aquatic campaigns various builds are viable. +0 seems okay.

Adult

Medium size, slightly more strength, a slightly harder shell, and slightly stronger natural attacks, and all that for the low price of 7 RHD! How about no.

-0.

Elder

15 RHD does not make up for what's just another size increase. -0 here as well.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was looking these over last night in preparation and I would go -0 for all of them outside of an aquatic campaign specifically because I am not confident that they can breathe air. Water subtype creature can explicitly breath water but can "usually breathe air" but offers no clues as to when that may be. Assuming it is decided by individual monster then tojanida cannot breathe air and thus really are not suitable for non-aquatic games.

If they can then I am still not convinced they are +0 but that is mostly because 10 foot land speed is just painful.

Also I am sleepless and thus suffering l'esprit d'escalier :
First I realized at like 7 AM EST that great Wyrm metallic and red dragons could actually be +0 worthy because of the way epic works; secondly someone in an early thread was lamenting the lack of good RAW goblinoids and I totally forgot to mention air goblin. Sorry dude whoever you are! I hope you discover those cool dudes eventually!

Also an air race tojanida would cleanly solve the breathing problem but such a thing is outside the scope of this thread.

[Nifft]

[CENTER]Tojanida

Juvenile

3 outsider RHD, small size, and bonuses to each stat that's not intelligence or charisma (with the former being average and the latter incurring a small penalty). Natural attacks are two weak claws and a quite strong bite. As is to be expected of an aquatic outsider, its swim speed is high. Sadly, land speed is a joke. Immunity to two energy types and resistance to two more is useful, and to a lesser degree all-around vision is as well.

As for offensive special abilities, there's improved grab (of questionable use on a small creature) and the ability to either duplicate Fog Cloud (underwater) or briefly blind foes with ink (out of the water). The blinding may be worth it as a short-range debuff, the cloud will hamper your teammates as well.

Are juveline tojanidas unplayable? I don't think so. The chassis is pretty neat compared to its cost, and especially in more aquatic campaigns various builds are viable. +0 seems okay.

Being Small doesn't mean Improved Grab is useless. You just need to stack on the bonuses, like any other optimization problem. In this case, Totemist (for Girallon Arms) + some Psionic class (for Expansion) => Soul Manifester (to advance both).

Regarding land speed... yeah, you're going to want a way around that.

I don't see any good ways off the top of my head, though. Elocator wants base speed. Wing grafts seem to also target base speed or base land speed.

Barbarian 1, maybe? Trade out your basic Lion Spirit Totem class feature for +10 ft. movement?

[zlefin]

The best x to y is Charisma stat really isn't high enough to do that any better than a Unicorn or a Succubus. Alternatively, INT, but the same statement goes with other lower hanging races.

I tend to agree though that +0 is appropriate. A well designed Titan can function fine.

it's not the x to y charisma that's great; it's that it has huge boosts in many stats which means it can get the x to y bonuses for cha, wis, int, and con simultaneously. (and str, but there'es not much for str).

[javcs]

Being Small doesn't mean Improved Grab is useless. You just need to stack on the bonuses, like any other optimization problem. In this case, Totemist (for Girallon Arms) + some Psionic class (for Expansion) => Soul Manifester (to advance both).

Regarding land speed... yeah, you're going to want a way around that.

I don't see any good ways off the top of my head, though. Elocator wants base speed. Wing grafts seem to also target base speed or base land speed.

Barbarian 1, maybe? Trade out your basic Lion Spirit Totem class feature for +10 ft. movement?

The Quick trait? +10ft speed for -1HP/HD? Racial bonus to Constitution helps mitigate the downside there.


I'd go -0 for all of the Tojanidas.

The "crablike claws" sound like they'd be poor manipulators/substitutes for hands.