Stellaris II: I, For One, Welcome Our New Robot Fungus Hivemind Overlords

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I really like the 2.0 changes, especially the new system ownership system so you don't have to have monthly Influence being sucked down just to try to keep a hyperlane open when suddenly their influence magically pushes two pixels forward for some reason and suddenly your main route is cut off. Now you know if you have ownership, or not, and it isn't going to change, short of invasion or something attacking your outpost station.

Separating military vessel construction from civilian construction was another good idea, if your starbases are all forward, it is far less time the ships have to travel to get to the front lines, and they don't necessarily have to be inhabited systems. You could put a starbase with shipyards (plural? I think?) in an uninhabitable system right on your border, and it will work just fine. Until it gets blown up, of course.

Of course, it's not all roses, unfortunately. With the cap per fleet as well as combined strength tallied separately, we may have a scenario in which doomstacks don't exist. Instead we will have 'technically not a doomstack, but I have four large fleets all happening to be in the same system at the same time simultaneously kicking your arse, so it's not like there's much of a distinction'. The only difference is the Admiral bonus (if you have hired one) only works on one of the four fleets, so he only applies bonuses to a quarter of your total strength. Which isn't much of a deterrent. And because the game will *think* that you are supposed to have independent fleets, it just means they will be able to be defeated in detail much more easily.

[Aotrs Commander]

Of course, it's not all roses, unfortunately. With the cap per fleet as well as combined strength tallied separately, we may have a scenario in which doomstacks don't exist. Instead we will have 'technically not a doomstack, but I have four large fleets all happening to be in the same system at the same time simultaneously kicking your arse, so it's not like there's much of a distinction'. The only difference is the Admiral bonus (if you have hired one) only works on one of the four fleets, so he only applies bonuses to a quarter of your total strength. Which isn't much of a deterrent. And because the game will *think* that you are supposed to have independent fleets, it just means they will be able to be defeated in detail much more easily.

To ber fair, that assumes that pirates are in insufficient threat to your unguarded systems that you can afford to have all your fleets in one place. And we will be having far less numerical ships available, which hopefully means each ship is more meaningful (and thus a proportionally more powerful unit).

Really, the best way of ensuring doomstacks are migitated (to a degree, since concentration of force is literally the main objective of any war, as recognised further back that Sun Tzu) is by having threats that require you to spend that precious fleet cap on defense.

SotS did this quite well, because you couldn't afford NOT to have a garrison in every system (MAYBE if you were Hiver), due to random pirate and Von Neumnn attacks. I'm hopeful that the improved pirates mentioned in the patch should now be sufficient threat, you can;'t afford to have your empires entire fleet in one place all the time.

Sure, it won't probably stop you having one big armada with the majority of your ships in [x] fleets in the same place, but migitating it the best you can manage. It is an improvement over what currently exists, which is better than nothing. Whether it will be enough remains to be seen, but it is, at least, a decent start.



(And nobody apart from me wants a real supply system (which would also help), i.e. where transit time and route of supplies matters because it would be fricking hard (because logisitics arte the key to real war and proper logistics is dead hard).)

[GloatingSwine]

Of course, it's not all roses, unfortunately. With the cap per fleet as well as combined strength tallied separately, we may have a scenario in which doomstacks don't exist. Instead we will have 'technically not a doomstack, but I have four large fleets all happening to be in the same system at the same time simultaneously kicking your arse, so it's not like there's much of a distinction'. The only difference is the Admiral bonus (if you have hired one) only works on one of the four fleets, so he only applies bonuses to a quarter of your total strength. Which isn't much of a deterrent. And because the game will *think* that you are supposed to have independent fleets, it just means they will be able to be defeated in detail much more easily.

I suspect that situation will happen sometimes, but a combination of much lower casualties from battles due to individual ship retreating plus the force disparity bonus plus the way war objectives now work means that having all your forces in one place should now mean that although you win that battle you lose the war because the person who didn't do that rampaged all over your territory racking up war exhaustion against you and stealing all your stuff, and you did far less material damage than expected to their fleets (when you occupy a system in war you get its resources until the end of the war).

[Kaptin Keen]

I haven't tested yet - not even spun the game up - but it sounds like wars will turn into endless grinds now. Endlesser.

Before, at least you could wipe out the enemy fleet strength, then leisurely - if sluggishly, boringly - roll over their planets one by one. Now, you'll apparently have to defeat their fleet, then roll over their planets one by one, while also rolling over their fleets again and again.

Other parts of the update sound less obnoxious.

[GloatingSwine]

I haven't tested yet - not even spun the game up - but it sounds like wars will turn into endless grinds now. Endlesser.

Before, at least you could wipe out the enemy fleet strength, then leisurely - if sluggishly, boringly - roll over their planets one by one. Now, you'll apparently have to defeat their fleet, then roll over their planets one by one, while also rolling over their fleets again and again.

Other parts of the update sound less obnoxious.

Depends what the war is for.

The amount of effort it takes to win a war will depend on what was at stake in the war, and that's going to depend on what claims you have on the opponent.

[houlio]

I haven't tested yet - not even spun the game up - but it sounds like wars will turn into endless grinds now. Endlesser.

Before, at least you could wipe out the enemy fleet strength, then leisurely - if sluggishly, boringly - roll over their planets one by one. Now, you'll apparently have to defeat their fleet, then roll over their planets one by one, while also rolling over their fleets again and again.

Other parts of the update sound less obnoxious.

Pretty sure this won't be true considering they decided to add in war exhaustion now. Each loss you take will add to war exhaustion. Even if you don't wipe an enemy fleet, each casualty you inflict and system you occupy will still count.

[Silverraptor]

Man, thursday can't come fast enough! I can wait to play 2.0!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pretty sure this won't be true considering they decided to add in war exhaustion now. Each loss you take will add to war exhaustion. Even if you don't wipe an enemy fleet, each casualty you inflict and system you occupy will still count.

So you CAN then wage a war of attrition or a war of maneuver and succeed? Interesting.

I wonder if they could take this to the next step, if your area of influence gets cut off behind you, then your have to retreat along your supply line until you get back to a secure supply line, much like the evacuation. After all, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. This could force a much larger military fleet into retreating due to a far smaller harassment force cutting off their supply lines. It wouldn't defeat the ships themselves, but it would halt progression, and be a delaying tactic, buying you that most precious military resource: time. Time to build your own fleet up to strength and upgrade to fend off the assault.

[Vaz]

Conversely, I think this adds more depth to other gameplay. If you're going to roll an enemy in war, you're going to roll an enemy in war. This update changes nothing, apart from make it slower. If you're wanting a game like stellaris to be fast, I don't quite know what to tell you. That's like saying you want to have hour long tekken matches.

The beauty of it being a game, means you can set your own victories. Does it matter that you'vec ot conquered the whole galaxy if it'sgoing to be inevitable that you will? Just quit the game and start anew.

This gives more chance to experience other things than simply fast teching in a tall build until you can Spam MetaCruisers or before that, Rig destroying Corvette spam.

- - - -

I'm super keen for Thurs. Going to be looki gfor a Mod ASAP that lets me change up a Titan to have acces to Hangarbays, though.

[Silverraptor]

Just thinking of game blasts from the past, anyone ever hear of an old game called "Reach for the Stars"? I remember playing that as a kid. That was Stellaris before stellaris was anywhere a thing!

[boomwolf]

Technical doomatack seems like suicide to me given the new travel rules.

If you got a big empire, and anything happens on the other side while you are busy, you'll take insane losses before your fleets get there to react all the way from the other side.


Basically, a war on two fronts actually matters now, and will be brutal.

[factotum]

Technical doomatack seems like suicide to me given the new travel rules.

If you got a big empire, and anything happens on the other side while you are busy, you'll take insane losses before your fleets get there to react all the way from the other side.

Does depend to some extent on how good the defence stations are, though. I wonder what happens when jumpdrives come in? Does everyone with that tech just send doomstacks into their enemies' territories, knowing they can jump back home if a problem arises?

[GloatingSwine]

Does depend to some extent on how good the defence stations are, though. I wonder what happens when jumpdrives come in? Does everyone with that tech just send doomstacks into their enemies' territories, knowing they can jump back home if a problem arises?

Depends how long the cooldown and debuff on jump drives is.

If you jump willy nilly into enemy territory you might be caught in a bad situation.

Jump drives will be best used when accepting the tradeoffs is better than fighting a strong border force.

[qechua]

One of the streams had History Wiz say jumpdrives are more for strategic redeployment across an empire rather than tactical gain, I think the numbers they had were 100 day cooldown at 50% rate of fire and 50% something else. I don't think they've said the actual jump range, I would imagine 50-75% of current jump drive range.

Of course, that's not going to stop players using them for tactical gain anyway, sneaking some disposable corvettes in to raid outpost systems :)

[Vaz]

Jump Drives are 120 Day Cool Down according to an Aspec vid. Range isn't fantastic either, unless it scales further, but you may be able to bypass a Fortress system. On lower density games, double choke points may be extreme.

[boomwolf]

Well, it may be used for checky blitz-capitol rush when the terrain fits by jumping across what is normally a very long path to catch someone off guard.

But overall, apoc jump seems to be not that impressive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Technical doomatack seems like suicide to me given the new travel rules.

If you got a big empire, and anything happens on the other side while you are busy, you'll take insane losses before your fleets get there to react all the way from the other side.


Basically, a war on two fronts actually matters now, and will be brutal.

Ancient Gateways seem to be able to mitigate that pretty well, especially once you can build your own.

[Drasius]

Update is live.

[boomwolf]

Yes, its horrible. I don't know what to play! so much I want to do!

[Artanis]

So on one of the streams, Twitch chat asked them about mods working in the new version. One of the devs joked, "Well, the 'more colors' mod might be alright..."

Turns out he was technically right, since the Spectra Flag Colors mod has already been updated

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys. Just letting you all know, I've already recorded the first episode of the Let's play I promised of my first playthrough of 2.0 and Apocalypse! I just need to render and upload the video and when I do, I'll post a link to a new Let's Play thread here for anyone interested in seeing me Get my ass handed to me conquer the galaxy. Wish me luck!

[factotum]

Well, played it for a good 3 hours or so. I feel it's definitely slower to get started than old Stellaris was, and there are so few habitable planets in a default game that I haven't even had to set up a sector yet, but overall I like the changes. Apart from maybe the really slow movement, which means I've missed at least one special project because I didn't have a ship nearby and it takes them absolutely ages to go anywhere now.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watching all your reports with interest, but I'mma hold off for a moment... Purely because, having just started Witcher 3 now, it will probably be a bit before I will get to it (I try not to have TOO many ongoing games at once, and I still have the last 140 years or CK2 to slog through!) Still, there is usually a hotfix out for issue which crop up with any new patch, so that's not to a complete detriment.

Though I make no definitive statement on how long that resolve yields (though probably at least until after the panto this weekend...!)

[Drasius]

Well, played it for a good 3 hours or so. I feel it's definitely slower to get started than old Stellaris was, and there are so few habitable planets in a default game that I haven't even had to set up a sector yet, but overall I like the changes. Apart from maybe the really slow movement, which means I've missed at least one special project because I didn't have a ship nearby and it takes them absolutely ages to go anywhere now.

Had privateers capture some dudes, they manage to call me on their space phone and we arrange a cunning plan for their rescue, they space email me the location of the base ... and it's locked behind a 7k alien fleet at the start of the game because hyperlanes. Yeah, sorry buddy, you're going to sit there and cool your heels for a century or so. Luckily, the quest doesn't seem to expire, so I guess I'll rescue his great grandchildren or something (I took the short lifespan malus) considering it's currently 2259 and I still haven't broken 6k despite being wildly over fleetcap.

Also, this would have to have been one of the most sparse starts I can remember. 2 non red planets in a ~10 planet/jump radius. The only reason I'm doing passably is 'cause I managed to snag a Space Age uplift and absorb them. Turns out that there's still only 2 morw suitable planets for them in the same radius and both of them are low teens size. Meanwhile there's a nice size 23 ocean world that I can't do anything with taunting me in the same system as my piddly size 14 frozen wasteland and 3 more high teen/low 20's ocean worlds in my radius. FML.

[Vaz]

Had privateers capture some dudes, they manage to call me on their space phone and we arrange a cunning plan for their rescue, they space email me the location of the base ... and it's locked behind a 7k alien fleet at the start of the game because hyperlanes. Yeah, sorry buddy, you're going to sit there and cool your heels for a century or so. Luckily, the quest doesn't seem to expire, so I guess I'll rescue his great grandchildren or something (I took the short lifespan malus) considering it's currently 2259 and I still haven't broken 6k despite being wildly over fleetcap.

Also, this would have to have been one of the most sparse starts I can remember. 2 non red planets in a ~10 planet/jump radius. The only reason I'm doing passably is 'cause I managed to snag a Space Age uplift and absorb them. Turns out that there's still only 2 morw suitable planets for them in the same radius and both of them are low teens size. Meanwhile there's a nice size 23 ocean world that I can't do anything with taunting me in the same system as my piddly size 14 frozen wasteland and 3 more high teen/low 20's ocean worlds in my radius. FML.

That's something that I'd prefer to see calculated into the game with those events: a timer based on when they start: say captured, likely to be executed in 3 years.

It would have to be worthwhile however: several months of science research, or a new tech, granting higher rewards to more 'Lawful Good' styles of play.

Havi g to do the urgent transfer mission for the refugees, I seem to recall waiting nearly 300 years to complete all told.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That's poor luck, I had it be only 1k, and I quickly was able to get up to 1.5 to beat them. Ive also managed to snag 4 planets in my area as Earth, but I suspect that's because Alpha Centauri is iirc guaranteed to be settleable

[Drasius]

That's poor luck, I had it be only 1k, and I quickly was able to get up to 1.5 to beat them. Ive also managed to snag 4 planets in my area as Earth, but I suspect that's because Alpha Centauri is iirc guaranteed to be settleable

IIRC, you always get 1 same/similar biome planet within a jump or two and then the rest is up to blind luck and praying to RNGesus.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, that was... annoying.

Started up my new game, decided to try out Determined Exterminators since I don't need to spend MONTHLY unity on outposts anymore. Started off at the tail end of an arm of a four-arm galaxy, with pirates blocking my egress. Then Amoebas in my way. And with the change of the Ascension perk, I no longer get all my tile blocker techs researched (although I at least get bonus pop cap, which is more than a fair trade) so my 'natural' is about half-blocked by stuff I can't clear yet.

Oh, the best part, though? Once I got through all that, guess who was waiting at the doorstep? Fanatical Militant Theocratic. Guess how well we get along, and he's got a superior fleet to boot.

[Madcrafter]

I on the other hand am having a great game so far. Since it's hyperlanes only, I decided to roll a completely random race and ended up with Xenophobe/Militarist/Materialist birdfolk with the Machinist civic (yay robots). Found some of those new marauders inwards of me who conveniently block off that route, and then some Spiritualist/Militarist/Egalitarian fungi to the north. Went to war with them to try and claim some of their rich border systems, but their fleet was just slightly larger, and more importantly, shipyard quite a bit closer. Very luckily, just before I had to Status Quo out, nomads showed up and sold me 5 high tech cruisers that let me quickly blitz two systems and cause and unconditional surrender, so I even got an upgraded starbase at a critical choke point.

Exploring after that I haven't found anyone else nearby, but did find a non-holy 25 tile Gaia world with a 25 tile Tropical world (my preference) right next to it. Livin' the dream.

[factotum]

Oh, I have a question. I had the event where you have to find space probes sent out by your species years ago, but I'd already fully surveyed (and built a station in, and *colonised*) one of the systems the probes are in. Is it not actually possible to complete that quest now, because I can't survey the system?