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2017-09-06, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think Rich really means prophecies to say something about the gods (I say after years of reading posts about how Belkar's death is only Tiamat's opinion, or even something Tiamat's going to try to cause).
For that matter, I don't get the impression he means gods to be moral entities except when they're being thoroughly evil; he may highlight Hel's cruelty or the Dark One's selfishness, but he's never shown anything highlighting any of the gods showing a virtue (unless one considers Thor's willingness to argue ridiculous loopholes with Hel as such, which I don't). But particularly where prophecies are involved, Tiamat/Odin seem more like handwave vessels for the prophecies to exist than actual players in them.Last edited by Kish; 2017-09-06 at 03:58 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-09-06, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment. It can also be argued Belkar's prophecy was helpful since killing the Oracle helped him overcome the Mark of Justice, though that's more of a stretch.
Durkon's and V's prophecies were pure foreshadowing that didn't help them at all. I presume the same will hold true for Elan's prophecy though that remains to be seen. Roy's question was just played for laughs (and Blackwing's too for that matter).
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2017-09-06, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2017-09-06, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Spoiler: OtOoPCs SpoilerI don't get why Roy calls it, "unfair". It's Durkon's proper duty as a cleric of Thor to fulfill his mission (a mission which Firuk conveniently forgets to mention in this strip), as given to him by the High Priest of Thor. The obligations came with the position and power of being a cleric.
Honestly, it's kinder of Hurak to give Durkon a meaningful mission and purpose, and a hope of returning, rather than a prophecy of horrible doom, or an unexplained banishment. Any missionary can tell you the difference between serving a mission and being banished for no reason.
By the prophecy's conditions, Durkon simply cannot be allowed to go home to say goodbye. The fewer people there are who know of the prophecy (an easy way to bring death and destruction to the Dwarves), the less risk there is of anyone trying to bring it about.
I'd compare it to discovering a functional, but not yet detonated, nuclear weapon. Secret removal, with as few people knowing as possible that there was even a risk at all, is best. Keep need-to-know information restricted to those who need to know. Any writing of it could be stolen or otherwise discovered. The fact that High Priestess Rubyrock did not know of the prophecy is a failure by both Firuk and Hurak, but mostly Firuk (because as long as Hurak is alive, Rubyrock does not actually need to know).
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2017-09-06, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Firuk probably failed to mention Durkon's "mission" because he knew the mission was poppycock and not actually a thing.
Anyway, as for the whole prophecy thing, I'm a lot less flexible than most: the prophecy already takes into account whatever anybody does or doesn't do to prevent it from coming true. If Hurak had been the type to just ignore prophecies and hope for the best, then there wouldn't have been a prophecy at all for Hurak to ignore.ungelic is us
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2017-09-06, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-06, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
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2017-09-06, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I don't understand why they kicked him out in the first place. If death and blah-blah-blah happens if Durkon returns then just explain to him the issue and give him a permanent job at home. If he never LEAVES he can't RETURN.
But I am sure somebody has already pointed this out years ago.Avatar crafted by the Great and All Knowing Mr_Saturn
HEY! Nobody kills that many of my followers in one round except ME! Or maybe the goblin!
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Let's Play -Road Of Queens - CKII India AAR
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2017-09-06, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Because while NOW it means "returns to his homeland" it could just have easily (at the time) meant "the next time he returns to his HOUSE".
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2017-09-06, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2017-09-06, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2017-09-06, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, they would have needed to have Durkon spend the rest of his life in the temple, of course.
Still not seeing what the problem with that would have been, as long as Durkon knew why that was necessary and why he must never leave it again (for the dwarves; for Rich, of course, it would have meant no story).
Here.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-09-06, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2017-09-06, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
The cave is completely unrelated to the actual location, it's a subtext that hints at the truth.
- Point conceded.
- #276 Last panel - 'In time, they developed a design for a mystic gate...'
- Even omitting Kraagor, it could still have been Snarl seeing that the rifts were not 'Locked' until the gates were built.
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2017-09-06, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-09-06, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
IMO, those are less prophecy and more like divination. As in asking for advice and receive counselling from the divine.. Haley specifically asked for it, so that's what she gets when following instruction. Belkar never asked for his MoJ removed, so it's just a bonus. These two cases are unrelated to another and neither of them are similar to Hurak's prophecy. In Hurak's case, a prediction of a predetermined event from God came to him, and it's up to his own decision to deal with it.
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2017-09-06, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Inaction is an action. Doing nothing is still choosing something. If the future is what it is, that choice would lead to it as surely as any other. The difference is that, when calamity comes, you will know that you did nothing to solve it.
Also, acting on limited information is better than not acting at all (or acting on no information).
The problem is, if Fate's in a fickle enough mood, just about any course of action can set the prophecy in motion. Oedipus Rex is the classic example, and for good reason. "My son is going to kill me and screw my wife? Let's just kill him, corpses can't do that."
Instead of talking about the issue and trying to come up with a solution...''Yea, exiling him will solve things...and probably won't cause any trouble in the future where he might come back as a vampire controlling his body ! ''
Whatever he tells you, the god ain't perfect. It's possible that he didn't look carefully enough at the future before warning his people. It's possible that he couldn't look carefully enough to see how the calamity came. Or, perhaps, the revelation slipped from divine energy to mortal followers quicker than he could think "Is this a good idea?" It's even possible that he's required to impart visions of the future to anyone who casts the spell, lest he break a covenant with his church and lose everything (including his standing among his family, which would really suck come Thanksgiving dinner).
It's one of the cleverest kinds of prophecy out there. Though the first prize still goes to the kind of prophecy which is guaranteed to be true in one interpretation or another no matter what happens.
Don't be silly; he would have picked a fight with an ornery tree to die with honor.
And then when they brought his body home, the tree spores that got stuck in his wounds would blossom into something that caused death and destruction. Maybe orcwort.
No matter what the math says.
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2017-09-06, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-09-06, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
That is clear as mud reasoning. It matters whether and how much you believe the prophecy. If the foretold fate is unavoidable, then acting erratically in the vague hope that doing the wrong thing will save you somehow is not meaningfully more an action than inaction is. If the foretold fate is avoidable, then you must have a theory why a course of action really really makes sense when there is so much that is impossible to fathom.
In this case, Hurak trusted Durkon's honor (to stay away out of blind obedience) while not trusting Durkon's honor (that staying away to save the Dwarven nation was a worthy cause to suffer for). That is not defensible moral reasoning. It is the grasping of a panicked man.
That is one of the implied points Roy is making.Last edited by Snails; 2017-09-06 at 10:07 PM.
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-09-06, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
O.K., this feels like the setup for a greater revelation.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516
I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY
Zweisteine quoting Razanir:
"I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"
From: Razanir
Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.
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2017-09-06, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I still think the wiser choice would have been to essentially sentence/assign Durkon to "you can never leave our homeland because Odin says we'll all die if you do." And I stick with the homeland interpretation.
Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction. If he's to bring death and destruction, he has to go fetch it first, and baring the fantastically ridiculous, that's going to take more than a trip to the local tavern.
Make him stay put and invest the necessary means of researching the prophecy properly to deal with it beyond blindly shoving the Dwarf out the door and hoping he doesn't take it personally. And it isn't like the High Priest knew Durkon well enough to make that call, otherwise he would have known that the safer bet would have been to use Durkon's sense of duty and loyalty to ensure he stayed exiled.
Forget vampirism - what was done to everyone's favorite Dwarven Cleric is the sort of thing that kicks off a lot of Blackguard origin stories. Durkon's exile and how it was handled wasn't just tempting fate, but sitting in fate's lap in a skimpy dress making bedroom eyes at it.
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2017-09-07, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.
First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.
Secondly, as for "will the gods get more involved"... what if they already are involved? What if the so far unknown 'prist of Odin' was in fact Odin himself initiating a series of events that are meant to save the world? Despite the pain it has caused Durkon it may have been necessary in order to save the world. A bittersweet thought if true.
So I ask of you all: Could the priest of Odin be in fact Odin himself? While not directly working against Hel or anybody else and thus not directly breaking any oaths or other limitations to the involvement of the gods, it still may be a way to do things. Zeus usually did that in Greek mythology, if I remember correctly. You may call it 'interference by proxy', perhaps. This, incidentally, would make Durkon the most vital player in this game!
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2017-09-07, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Well, I'm glad at least some people aren't inclined to jump on board "Team Hurak Did Nothing Wrong". For a while it seemed the entire thread there was going to be nothing but defenses of him. I think the fact that he was (understandably) afraid of the prophecy is certainly a mitigating factor in evaluating his behavior, but at the very least it was needlessly cruel to keep Durkon out of the loop. He knew he wasn't doing right by him or by his family, or he wouldn't have had to hope that Thor forgave him someday.
I also admittedly don't see the problem with just keeping Durkon confined to temple grounds, which is where he was sleeping when Hurak came to wake him in Origin. But even if you're determined to wrangle some definition of "home" out of there that makes exile look like the better option, what is the justification for literally throwing him out into the snow with hardly any money and no idea what he'd done wrong to deserve such treatment? And no reassurance that his aging mother would be cared for, just a vague "she means a lot to us" and a plea for forgiveness. Hurak wasn't really treating him like a loyal servant of Thor he had a responsibility towards, he was panicking and treating him like an immediate threat they had to get out the door ASAP. It's kind of understandable to freak out under those circumstances, but it's by no means the right thing to do, and it's certainly not behavior you want out of a leader. Just a smidgen more patience and compassion from Hurak would have gone an enormous way with Durkon, and I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Hurak for failing him. That he simultaneously failed to avert the prophecy is just the icing on top of that failure sundae.
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2017-09-07, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Agreed. Hurak's response, whether predicted by the prophecy or not, was certainly not the right response. Throwing the dwarf that's the subject of a doom prophecy out of the temple without a shred of compassion in regards to him and giving him a lot of reasons to resent the dwarven people, on top of being cruel, was still a stupid thing to do.
And frankly, claiming Hurak had no agency in the prophecy doesn't do much to absolve him. The prophecy worked out the way it did because Hurak behaved the way he did, so even if one wanted to argue that the concept of predestination robbed Hurak of any choice in the matter... not really. Hurak's actions were accounted for, but they were still his actions; Odin's priest passing on the prophecy didn't immediately obligate Hurak into a rigid series of events that led to him deciding to throw Durkon out, he made that decision himself.
EDIT: Also, additional point to this whole discussion... the prophecy actually hasn't come to fruition yet. Durkon's come home, yes, and he's certainly been responsible for the death of at least one named member of the clergy (brother Sandstone) and what looks to be three other clerics (unless one of them got ripped in two or something), but that's still a far cry from "death and destruction on us all". With that in mind, who's to say the prophecy (or the one delivering it, for that matter) was legitimate at all?Last edited by Ironsmith; 2017-09-07 at 03:00 AM.
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2017-09-07, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
well it's a prophecy, so normal logic doesn't apply here and A durkon returning home and B death and destruction needn't necesarily be logically linked
"when this stone falls it will start to rain" could be a prophecy but that doesn't mean that the stone falling does so in a way that gives rain
it could have been so that the next time durkon returned home a giant meteor were to fall on the city, the meteor has nothing to do with durkon except for the prophecy part
I do agree with your analysis though, they're lucky that beyond being just a dwarf durkon was also raised with a massive sense of duty
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2017-09-07, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
For someone like Durkon, the knowledge that he is a walking time bomb would likely cause more suffering to him than believing he was exiled for no reason. He'd spend all his life wondering 'is this it?' every time something vaguely threatening happened, wouldn't allow himself to settle anywhere, would be terrified instead of overjoyed when the oracle told him he would go home 'posthumously, etc.
Note that in comic that is the correct response, see the Oracle for an example. But he knows more about prophesy than any other character in the story.]
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2017-09-07, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Hurak sent Durkon away to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass, so why should Durkon believe he was a walking time bomb because Hurak explained that? Wouldn't he just Lawfully defer to the knowledge of his superior and dutifully go out believing he was making a sacrifice for the good of all?
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2017-09-07, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-09-07, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe "shoot the messenger" was always meant as a recommendation and we were not in the loop?
ungelic is us
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2017-09-07, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread
Well, the high priest of Odin didn't actually need to pass the prophecy along to Hurak, so I suppose he gets the blame for that...although, logically, Durkon was a priest in Hurak's temple, so Hurak is the most logical person to be given this information? I don't see much blame attaching to the HPoO here, to be honest.