OOTS #1097 - The Discussion Thread

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Odin is aware of so many things that the Order isn't, that it is kind of presumptuous for them to be discussing his motives.

[137beth]

Ah, Odin being a tricksy, future seeing god. of course. To him, this is all going just as keikaku.

Hm.... I'm curious. What instances in the past has Durkon been important to the Order of the Stick? Because I've a feeling that there are probably a lot of situations where if Durkon wasn't there that things would turn out quite differently and thus make the sure wouldn't get this to be saved....even if we didn't notice it before...

Spoiler: On the Origin of the PCs

Show

Well, he was the one who convinced Roy to found an adventuring party, and the one who convinced Roy not to disband the Order prematurely.

[Sir_Norbert]

Heh. I made that point about Odin having ulterior motives in the discussion thread for the previous strip. Certainly didn't expect it to be addressed in-comic.

[Gift Jeraff]

Spoiler: On the Origin of the PCs

Show

Well, he was the one who convinced Roy to found an adventuring party, and the one who convinced Roy not to disband the Order prematurely.

Plus if it weren't for Durkon, they would've either killed Miko, died fighting her, or escaped her and miss out on the whole main quest.

[Reboot]

...I feel like a number of people are getting Odin (Somewhat mysterious deity that has barely even been referenced in the comic) confused with Thor. (Who is, in fact, the drunken buffoon that keeps getting referenced.)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

[Mr.Sandman]

Thinking on it, wasn't Odin the one who was cool with Banjo joining the pantheon way back when? Perhaps the whole thing with Hel is him needing more powerful gods some time around now for some reason?

[KarlMarx]

I am no expert, but there are some greek/roman myths about prophecies fullfilling themselves. (Think oedipus, who killed his father and married his mother as foretold) There also is the story about a she-wolf raising two human brothers. Like you said, Romulus and Remus.

However I cannot remember a story with both elements present. Maybe an authors oversight.

edit:clarified that the brothers were those roman twins.

Here's the legend, or at least the basics of it (if anyone can check my accuracy that'd be great):

Spoiler: Legend of Romulus and Remus

Show

The Romans believed that they were descended from a band of Trojans, who, led by Aeneas, fled to Italy following the destruction of their city at the hands of the Greeks. Aeneas' descendants founded the city of Alba Longa in Latium, and were its hereditary kings until Numitor was overthrown by his brother Amilius. It was foretold that Numitor's descendants would avenge this deed, so Amilius forced Numitor's daughter Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin, who took vows of chastity, the breaking of which was punished by death. However, Rhea Silvia became pregnant by the god Mars, an important enough event that killing her and preventing the birth of her children would be a greater crime against the Gods than her breaking her oath in the first place. Thus, she gave birth to the twins Romulus and Remus, who Amilius ordered to be abandoned in the river Tiber, leaving their fate to the Gods but assuming they would drown. However, the she-wolf Lupa rescued and nursed them until they were discovered by the sheperd Faustulus and his wife Acca Laurentia. They grew up to kill Amilius and restore Numitor to the throne, thus fulfilling the above prophesy, before founding a city on the banks of the Tiber where they had been saved by Lupa. After a dispute inspired over whether to found the city on the Aventine or Palatine hill (the specifics of which vary in ancient sources, either involving the twins disagreeing over how to interpret an augury or Romulus mocking Remus' wall) Romulus slew Remus either by murder or in a duel and named the city after himself, in Latin Roma (of which Romulus is the Latin masculine diminutive) or, in English, Rome.

[dtilque]

Pretty nice of the crows to hire ravens. Unkindness Inc. really failed in the marketing....

Crow and raven are just two terms used to refer to various species of the genus Corvus. There's no cladistic distinction between the two terms. Generally, the larger species are called ravens and the smaller ones are called crows, but it's not too uncommon for the same bird or species to be called by both terms. In other words, there's no real distinction between the two.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm still putting the blame for this one on Hurak. No matter what Odin did, the prophecy would have come true to pass, and I trust Odin's judgement in dealing with prophecy far more than I trust Hurak's.

[The_Weirdo]

Pretty nice of the crows to hire ravens. Unkindness Inc. really failed in the marketing....

I'm Brazilian. Let's be honest here, it's pretty awesome that I could make even that pun.

[factotum]

I'm still putting the blame for this one on Hurak. No matter what Odin did, the prophecy would have come true to pass, and I trust Odin's judgement in dealing with prophecy far more than I trust Hurak's.

But the point being made in the comic is that Odin gave this prophecy to his cleric knowing exactly what Hurak would do when he heard it--thus he intended for Durkon to get kicked out into the snow, then later be vampirised and return to dwarven lands as Hel's high priest. The question is, why would Odin want to do that?

[The_Weirdo]

Crow and raven are just two terms used to refer to various species of the genus Corvus. There's no cladistic distinction between the two terms. Generally, the larger species are called ravens and the smaller ones are called crows, but it's not too uncommon for the same bird or species to be called by both terms. In other words, there's no real distinction between the two.

Or this. At any rate, nevermore will I refrain from using the correct terms. You hear me? NEVERMORE!

[Zyzzyva]

Here's the legend, or at least the basics of it (if anyone can check my accuracy that'd be great):

Spoiler: Legend of Romulus and Remus

Show

The Romans believed that they were descended from a band of Trojans, who, led by Aeneas, fled to Italy following the destruction of their city at the hands of the Greeks. Aeneas' descendants founded the city of Alba Longa in Latium, and were its hereditary kings until Numitor was overthrown by his brother Amilius. It was foretold that Numitor's descendants would avenge this deed, so Amilius forced Numitor's daughter Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin, who took vows of chastity, the breaking of which was punished by death. However, Rhea Silvia became pregnant by the god Mars, an important enough event that killing her and preventing the birth of her children would be a greater crime against the Gods than her breaking her oath in the first place. Thus, she gave birth to the twins Romulus and Remus, who Amilius ordered to be abandoned in the river Tiber, leaving their fate to the Gods but assuming they would drown. However, the she-wolf Lupa rescued and nursed them until they were discovered by the sheperd Faustulus and his wife Acca Laurentia. They grew up to kill Amilius and restore Numitor to the throne, thus fulfilling the above prophesy, before founding a city on the banks of the Tiber where they had been saved by Lupa. After a dispute inspired over whether to found the city on the Aventine or Palatine hill (the specifics of which vary in ancient sources, either involving the twins disagreeing over how to interpret an augury or Romulus mocking Remus' wall) Romulus slew Remus either by murder or in a duel and named the city after himself, in Latin Roma (of which Romulus is the Latin masculine diminutive) or, in English, Rome.

That's what I was thinking too - and thanks very much for the greater detail than I was aware of - but the prophesy per-se doesn't involve the she-wolf, does it? That's what I kept getting hung up on.

[Jasdoif]

Crow and raven are just two terms used to refer to various species of the genus Corvus. There's no cladistic distinction between the two terms. Generally, the larger species are called ravens and the smaller ones are called crows, but it's not too uncommon for the same bird or species to be called by both terms. In other words, there's no real distinction between the two.

Sure there is: The collective noun for crows is "murder", the collective noun for ravens is "unkindness", intentional comedic use of "murder" for its various definitions doesn't work as well with "unkindness", and "unkindness" as a collective noun is almost weirder than a sapient banana. Almost.

[dtilque]

Sure there is: The collective noun for crows is "murder", the collective noun for ravens is "unkindness", intentional comedic use of "murder" for its various definitions doesn't work as well with "unkindness", and "unkindness" as a collective noun is almost weirder than a sapient banana. Almost.

Just don't murder me for being a pedant. That would be the unkindest cut of all.

[georgie_leech]

Just don't murder me for being a pedant. That would be the unkindest cut of all.

*slow clap*

[Lombard]

lol my brain went straight here

https://youtu.be/30MPYuRr-W4

[The_Weirdo]

Just don't murder me for being a pedant. That would be the unkindest cut of all.

[Castamir]

It's a reference to Sleipnir, the eight-legged horse, Loki's son and Odin's mount (as well as nephew).

Long story:
The gods wanted a defensive wall around Valhalla. Having inadequate engineering skills themselves, they seeked a master builder. The only one said to be adequate for the job was a giant; the guy refused any cash payment or anything else than Freya's hand in marriage. The gods wanted to refuse but Loki persuaded them to swindle the giant, demanding him to do the job alone, within a year. The giant negotiated to be allowed his horse as a help, the gods (again with Loki's advice) agreed.

But it turned out the horse was no mere animal -- the stallion could talk, think, and load stone onto a cart in the distant quarry by himself. Thus, the giant could just build while the stallion took care of bringing the material. When the year was close, it looked as if the giant will finish the job on time.

Obviously, the gods got mightily pissed at Loki. Loki then shapeshifted into a beautiful mare and went to seduce the horse. Successfully -- the giant had to bring material himself, failing to get the job on time. He suspected wrongdoing, and argued with the gods -- at which time a certain drunken racist buffoon came back from a giant-murdering trip, noticed the quarrel, and HAMMERTIME!

Everyone was happy, except for Loki who for some reason couldn't shapeshift back. A healer god diagnosed him as pregnant, the fetus blocked him from shifting from a female horse to a male humanoid. Apparently Loki took the forced pregnancy badly, and drank booze/did drugs/whatever so the foal was born eight-legged.

[The MunchKING]

However I cannot remember a story with both elements present. Maybe an authors oversight.

Possibly a Riordian's series reference? Elan has been genre aware enough to make fourth wall references before both subtle and un.

The later books in the series had the Primal She-Wolf doing the hero-raising thing, and loads of prophecies, some of which she had a part in. I don't remember how many were the classic self-fulfilling type, but that's where my mind went to upon reflection.

[Jasdoif]

Just don't murder me for being a pedant. That would be the unkindest cut of all.

Don't worry about feathers being ruffled (or bloodied?), this conversation is kind of for the birds anyway.

[The MunchKING]

Since when is OOTS Odin *not* a senile buffoon? Are we meant to think he's pulling a Shojo for some weird reason?

He's a GOD. When there's not something of Cosmic Importance on his mind he probably just enjoys goofing off. Who would he really be fooling by playing around when there's no overt threats?

...I feel like a number of people are getting Odin (Somewhat mysterious deity that has barely even been referenced in the comic) confused with Thor. (Who is, in fact, the drunken buffoon that keeps getting referenced.)

I mean he said he liked puppets and dogs. Did he even do anything else prior to the Godsmoot on camera?

[martianmister]

Long story:
The gods wanted a defensive wall around Valhalla. Having inadequate engineering skills themselves, they seeked a master builder. The only one said to be adequate for the job was a giant; the guy refused any cash payment or anything else than Freya's hand in marriage. The gods wanted to refuse but Loki persuaded them to swindle the giant, demanding him to do the job alone, within a year. The giant negotiated to be allowed his horse as a help, the gods (again with Loki's advice) agreed.

But it turned out the horse was no mere animal -- the stallion could talk, think, and load stone onto a cart in the distant quarry by himself. Thus, the giant could just build while the stallion took care of bringing the material. When the year was close, it looked as if the giant will finish the job on time.

Obviously, the gods got mightily pissed at Loki. Loki then shapeshifted into a beautiful mare and went to seduce the horse. Successfully -- the giant had to bring material himself, failing to get the job on time. He suspected wrongdoing, and argued with the gods -- at which time a certain drunken racist buffoon came back from a giant-murdering trip, noticed the quarrel, and HAMMERTIME!

Everyone was happy, except for Loki who for some reason couldn't shapeshift back. A healer god diagnosed him as pregnant, the fetus blocked him from shifting from a female horse to a male humanoid. Apparently Loki took the forced pregnancy badly, and drank booze/did drugs/whatever so the foal was born eight-legged.

Moral of the story: Don't build expensive walls.

[alwaysbebatman]

Apparently Loki took the forced pregnancy badly, and drank booze/did drugs/whatever so the foal was born eight-legged.

I heard/knew this story before this but the fetal alcohol syndrome is a twist I hadn't heard before...

[Dilvish]

*Raven answers the phone*
"Hello, Murder Inc., how can we help you?"
"..."
"No, sir, we don't do that kind of service."
"..."
"True, but not that kind of murder."
"..."
"Don't worry, common mistake. Thank you very much for your call."
*Raven hangs up*

:) :) Thank you.

[Ironsmith]

So, another angle to all of this... Odin is a Neutral Good character in the Dungeons & Dragons cosmos, and arguably one in Norse mythology, so is it possible he put out the prophecy, at least in part, as a matter of transparency?

[Boring McReader]

But the point being made in the comic is that Odin gave this prophecy to his cleric knowing exactly what Hurak would do when he heard it--thus he intended for Durkon to get kicked out into the snow, then later be vampirised and return to dwarven lands as Hel's high priest. The question is, why would Odin want to do that?

To set the Order of the Stick in motion to save the world. They had to go through many ordeals before they lost Durkon to a vampire. They'll overcome this one and go on to save the world. Maybe. Durkon's murderous rampage as a vampire is not the final act.

Or the world was doomed anyway, and like any good viking, Odin wanted to see a spectacular heroic battle before it ended.

[Cuvalwen]

Long story:
The gods wanted a defensive wall around Valhalla. Having inadequate engineering skills themselves, they seeked a master builder. The only one said to be adequate for the job was a giant; the guy refused any cash payment or anything else than Freya's hand in marriage. The gods wanted to refuse but Loki persuaded them to swindle the giant, demanding him to do the job alone, within a year. The giant negotiated to be allowed his horse as a help, the gods (again with Loki's advice) agreed.

But it turned out the horse was no mere animal -- the stallion could talk, think, and load stone onto a cart in the distant quarry by himself. Thus, the giant could just build while the stallion took care of bringing the material. When the year was close, it looked as if the giant will finish the job on time.

Obviously, the gods got mightily pissed at Loki. Loki then shapeshifted into a beautiful mare and went to seduce the horse. Successfully -- the giant had to bring material himself, failing to get the job on time. He suspected wrongdoing, and argued with the gods -- at which time a certain drunken racist buffoon came back from a giant-murdering trip, noticed the quarrel, and HAMMERTIME!

Everyone was happy, except for Loki who for some reason couldn't shapeshift back. A healer god diagnosed him as pregnant, the fetus blocked him from shifting from a female horse to a male humanoid. Apparently Loki took the forced pregnancy badly, and drank booze/did drugs/whatever so the foal was born eight-legged.

I love the reference to Slepnir! Mpreg is not at all a modern invention. (It's in the Mabinogian as well.) I can't place the she-wolf reference though- I believe Fenric was male? Is Elan being Wrong Genre-Savvy?

[JumboWheat01]

Looks like the Belkster is lining up for a "Smite me, o mighty smiter!"

[Psychronia]

As it turns out, someone who was described by an evil spirit as "the equivalent of a support beam" is a rather crucial part of the group

Good support characters and support beams alike are like breathable air. You don't tend to notice them or their complexities, but everything tends to collapse into a suffocating darkness without them.

It seems that the general consensus is that Odin's ulterior motive was likely getting Durkon on Roy's team. Whatever is going down here, Odin judged that it would be a worthwhile price in exchange for the help Durkon's either going to give or has already given. Heck, it might even be something as mundane as giving the Order a chance for some more battles so that they're more leveled and better equipped for the final confrontation at the last gate.

Odin is a manipulative chessmaster that makes sacrifices for the greater good, but no one seems to doubt that the greater good is what he's after.

EDIT: Also, I'm gonna start referring to Blackore exclusively as "Beer Dude" now. Belkar and Elan get the best lines.

I wonder what Beer Dude actually told Durkon's mother and family all these years?