4th edition!

[TSGames]

Suddenly, and for no raisin! DnD 3.5 is not as interesting to me. Meh. Kind of like Melee, it just isn't as interesting now that Brawl is almost here.

[OverdrivePrime]

“The D&D game table is basically the place where you can play D&D 24/7. It’s the kitchen table on the internet,” explained Slavicsek. “It lets you do everything you can do on the kitchen table—roll the dice, lay out your battle map, lay out your dry erase marker map, lay out your dungeon tiles, lay out your virtual miniatures,” and it will let players use voice chat through the company Vivox to communicate directly through the game table just like if they were all in the same room.

“What we really like about this is that with a lot of groups, after college the group breaks up, never to see each other again. Well now you can call each other and log into D&D Insider and play on the D&D game table. And suddenly your groups that have been gone for 10 years can get back together and play with each other.” According to Slavicsek, all of this will be free to D&D Insider subscribers, but also available to nonsubscribers for a nominal fee.

Even if everything else about 4th edition is horrible, they've got me and my money with the virtual game table. The people I want to game with aren't just a short bike ride across the neighborhood anymore. They're in different states and different countries. I've been waiting for a practical development like this since the end of college.

[horseboy]

Well, I was interested until I read this. Wow, if that's their idea of play testing.... A +2 AOE to saves not good? Wipe out a BBEG and his minions while running on 1/2 power and still not sweating? choosing NOT to do an encounter when it's their job to test encounters? Oh yeah, it's going to be every bit as broken as 3.X.



And what's up with the 1/2 tyranid 1/2beholder?

[Chris_Chandler]

Okay -

I've been reading along for a bit, and there have been a number of people making some fine points. When I play D&D, it's 3.5, SRD, and I include my own houserules. Many of those houserules have come all the way through with me, since I started playing (that'd be '83-'84). I say that to point out that the game is similar enough throughout iterations that threads run through. Of course, absolutely, there are specific things (skills, a reversal of the basic mechanic allowing for an open-ended roll, etc.) that make 3.5 it's own game, but the point is that D&D is D&D whether or not you're playing a "fighting man", deciding to try out an UA Cavalier, writing out a ThaC0 chart at the bottom of your character sheet, deciding between playing an alienst or a warlock for the extra spells, wondering if keen actually could stack with improved crit, or trying to reach a zen understanding of grappling huge creatures.

I spent... a lot of money from the second 2e came out until skills and powers (combat and tactics FTW). I still have the bulk of it, too, though I just don't use it anymore. I honestly didn't pick up more than the 3.0 "core three" when it came out, because my gaming group was really uninterested (to the point of a falling out with a very "pro" 3rd ed DM). I play 3.5 exclusively now (for D&D), in part because I feel that the d20 system is a superior ruleset. I have a lot inspiration from the older "fluff" in my collection, but I prefer how the game is run with 3.5. I've not spent thousands of dollars on the game, though, because I just plain don't have the cash to purchase things like I used to.

The SRD is a great tool, and it allows me to continue to allow my knowledge of the game to grow, and make sure everyone is on the same page. Yes, I have looked at all the "non core" material (Complete Champion notwithstanding - too new), but I'm not going to make any purchases. Why? I can't afford to. I can play my hobby unfettered via the SRD and my homebrew. I support WOTC in other ways, and make occasional purchases, but, crap, I've got a family, I have bills. If I want a new sourcebook, I wait for my seasonal purchase (like I did with GURPS 4e).

When 4th edition is released, I'll be one of the first to study it. It's my hobby, it's what I enjoy. I want to keep on top of it. I might pick up the starter adventure, and run my gaming group through it. Will I switch immediately? Of course not! I ran 2e games for another 3 years after 3e came out, and had to convice the grognards with whom I play to step into the waters of 3.5. If 4th ed it viable, I'll "upgrade". I did so twice already, so another time is not going to be a problem.

WOTC did well with 3.5, though I'm frustrated with the amount of sprawl that followed, especially with marketing telling us that sprawl was not going to happen. I'm also frustrated that, even though the public has gotten "nope" as an answer for if 4e is even on the drawing board, this announcement is so sudden. Sure, it's all business, but that's not my issue. Business ethics aside, there are plenty of folks who wanted to participate in building the new ruleset. Now, I know the wizards boards, and a few choice products are at the forefront of the "testing" stage for this edition, but what would have been the harm in actually telling folks, "hey, we're in the most basic of planning stages right now, but we're willing to listen to your input, so, let's hear it". Instead we can just hope that the very opinionated folks on the wotc board were even acknowledged, much less used as part of the process.

All that to say, cool, a new edition is a very exciting time, when even the most mundane of design points is interesting and giggled over, but, dangit WOTC, bother to include the folks playing the game in the decision making process.

[Kiero]

meh, some of us aren't made of money :)

And how exactly are you obligated to buy anything? It's not like the books you already have are magically stripped of contents, forcing you to go out and get new books.

[Brianish]

Unfortunately, once it comes out, you have to either oblige them and convert, retool every subsequent release so that it fits back into 3.5, or cease buying new books ever. It wouldn't concern me too much, except that it's going to effect campaign setting releases. It's going to really bug the crap out of me when my Eberron books start bridging two systems.

[Wizzardman]

Blast you, Wizards! Fourth Edition isn't even out yet, and already you've dealt me a fatal blow!

MMO's are bad enough! We don't need you charging a monthly fee for online content, too!

[/rant]

That aside, I think the new stuff on weapon types looks promising. There's already been some variation for different weapons [like bonuses to disarm with flails], but I think additional variety and detail would be quite nice.

I'd just rather not have all the nice Design and Development articles hidden behind the wall of "pay us money."

[Jimmy Discordia]

Even if everything else about 4th edition is horrible, they've got me and my money with the virtual game table. The people I want to game with aren't just a short bike ride across the neighborhood anymore. They're in different states and different countries. I've been waiting for a practical development like this since the end of college.

I concur... I just watched the online demos, and I hate to be a fanboy, but this is pretty sweet. I'm reserving judgment 'til I see the new rules, but I'm feeling more optimistic about 4E now.

[rollfrenzy]

This might even belong on its own thread, but why are people jumping up and down and screaming "MY BOOKS!!! THEY ARE ALL RUINED!!!"?

You will still be able to play them (as has been said). Also, if it's support, there are plenty of online sources for that. and Really if you don't think that theres enough material out for 3.5 already, what more do you need?

I guess I just don't understand.

If you hate the new system, you can use all the books you are worried about and still have just as much fun.

If you like the new system, then it's obviously worth it so make the switch and have fun.

As for WoTC charging for the online stuff. It's all the same, and prolly more material (and will prolly be for less) that you got in dungeon and Dragon magazines.

[Matthew]

I concur... I just watched the online demos, and I hate to be a fanboy, but this is pretty sweet. I'm reserving judgment 'til I see the new rules, but I'm feeling more optimistic about 4E now.

Where can I find these Online Demos? Are you talking about the three excerpts and video or is there something new now?

[Jimmy Discordia]

Where can I find these Online Demos? Are you talking about the three excerpts and video or is there something new now?

No, that's what I meant, the YouTube stuff. Sorry if I got your hopes up about more.

[Matthew]

Nah, just piqued my interest. No problem.

[Machete]

*MAN SQUEEEEEEEEEEEL*

Fighters get weapon abilities depending on different weapons!

Finally a reason other than role-play to use certain weapons I've always thought were cool! I'm looking at you handaxe!

[ImperiousLeader]

With all the references to Saga, I went and flipped through it. Intriguing. If the new system is taking a lot of Saga concepts, than I'd say the class most likely to be cut is the Monk. A lot of the monk's abilities could be converted into Talent trees and stuffed into the Fighter Class. Might even make the Monk playable.

[PlatinumJester]

*MAN SQUEEEEEEEEEEEL*

Fighters get weapon abilities depending on different weapons!

Finally a reason other than role-play to use certain weapons I've always thought were cool! I'm looking at you handaxe!

Wow, Fighters dare I say it actually look...good. The Bastard sword ability better not be Kiai Smite.

[Rob Knotts]

A lot of the monk's abilities could be converted into Talent trees and stuffed into the Fighter Class. Might even make the Monk playable.

If anything that would drastically improve my overall opinion of the Monk as a D&D character type (if not as seperate class). Aside from the whole Western Fantasy debate, the thing that always bugged me the most about the Monk is that it came with own very specific set of combat rules shared by no other core class.

[Matthew]

All we know so far is that one of the abilities of the Sword is 'Rain of Blows', which looks supiciously like the Saga Ability Double Attack(?) where you basically take -5 to Hit and make two Attacks.

[Xian]

Ok, I really have to address the issue of people complaining about the price and having to buy new books and maybe paying a subscription price for the optional online content (and I've seen a whole lot of those). In two words: shut up.

In many more words and in a less abrasive manner, I'm a video gamer as well, so I have no sympathy for financial woes. Let's look at the generalized statistics, shall we?

Video gaming:
Core systems - $180-$600. Additional controllers for multiplayer $30+ each.
Games - $20-$50 each.
Online content - $50-$60/year subscription
Limited backwards compatibility
Unable to create original content (generally speaking)
No cross-platform support
Consoles outdated when new system comes out; break after so many years.

D&D gaming:
Core systems - $35-$105 (or $245). Additional PHBs for easier multiplayer, $35 each.
Adventure modules - Free-$100. From "create your own" to "World's Largest Dungeon"
Online content - personal guesstimation $50-$60/year, no more than $100.
Complete forwards & backwards compatability/cross platform support
Completely open to original content
Systems last forever

Just because a new system is coming out doesn't mean it will be horrible, and if you can't afford it, save up money or keep using your system that is still just as functional, relevant and entertaining as the day you bought it. Hell, people still play 1e rules without any trouble, and converting pre-printed modules to fit your current rule set doesn't take a lot of work.

Now, as for actual content of the books, I'll just shut my mouth. I'm too new to D&D to complain or praise the format of 3.5e rules. I will say, however, that I am so looking forward to the digital tools. I don't have a group I can meet with in person, so I run and play in a lot of PbP games, so this stuff is a godsend for me. Mapping alone has been a royal pain in my ass.

[ImperiousLeader]

I'm hoping that published adventures, and even 3rd party adventures, like Paizo's adventure paths would be brought into the online game. Honestly, the possibility of doing real pen-and-paper style D&D over the computer has me really salivating, given the issues I'm having trying to schedule some games. NWN2 is not what I wanted, this looks like it may be.

[Acco Spoot]

I'm on the fence about this, I mean I'd hardly began on my 3.5 Collection so no loss there, plus if I get in early then I won't be as intimidated by the more hardcore players, this online subscription thing has me a little worried, I have no actual income whatsoever and, I know this sounds kinda petty, but the cover art featured on the Presentation Video made me kinda put off, in comparrison to the 3rd Ed stuff it just seems clinical and a step backwards, but hey, I'm sure the game itself can't be that bad.... surely?

[kingpain]

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

Like 3rd edition right? And then, oops, this didn't work as well, buy 3.5. It isn't a grudge, I enjoyed 3.0, and 3.5 barely changed anything. I've spent way to much on a hobby to start from scratch again. I've played since I was in single digits, phone calls were a dime, pop was a quarted and THAC0 was understood by gamers. For a simple hobby to keep in touch with old friends, I can't warrant buying all over again

(And I didn't convert our 2nd to 3rd. Our group decided that a new edition should have a fresh start)

[Cybren]

I'm not to keen on automatically scaling skills, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Dausuul]

Now, I know the wizards boards, and a few choice products are at the forefront of the "testing" stage for this edition, but what would have been the harm in actually telling folks, "hey, we're in the most basic of planning stages right now, but we're willing to listen to your input, so, let's hear it".

The harm would be that once 4E is announced, 3.5E sales drop precipitously. Who's going to buy a bunch of 3.5E books when they're going to become obsolete soon? WotC has to walk a fine line between "announce too close to the release date, so all the people who just bought 3.5 books are up in arms," and "announce too far ahead of the release date, so we go broke in the interim."

[Pendragonx]

And how exactly are you obligated to buy anything? It's not like the books you already have are magically stripped of contents, forcing you to go out and get new books.

Hehe. I quite agree with you. I was never implying anyone was. I was actually replying to a poster above that post who said something about why people were so opposed to getting Fourth Edition :) Sorry that wasn't clear. I'll need to use the Quotes a little more I guess :)

[Fhaolan]

All that to say, cool, a new edition is a very exciting time, when even the most mundane of design points is interesting and giggled over, but, dangit WOTC, bother to include the folks playing the game in the decision making process.

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

[Sulecrist]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

That'd be sweet.

Cue shocking revelations! BWL is really Monte! Fax is really David Noonan! Giant isn't sick at all, he's just been bathing in development dollars!

In all seriousness, I'm quite optimistic. My three-year campaign's been winding down and the current Age will probably end by RL Christmas--plenty of time for a nice break before the next Age (and edition) begins.

[illathid]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

I'm fairly sure that the Logic Ninja as well some other well respected posters on the Character Optimization board were hired to help look over the Rules Compendium that will be coming out soon. They could have also been used to help work on 4E as well. I forget where I read that however.

[ray53208]

anger. distrust. a gnawing sense that ive got entire shelf loads of useless obsolete books that cost me almost a thousand dollars. a burning churning aprehension that if i want to continue playing with any level of company support ill have to shell out more hard earned money for another version every few years. betrayal may not be too strong of a word.

there are other games and other companies. they will recieve my money.

[horseboy]

anger. distrust. a gnawing sense that ive got entire shelf loads of useless obsolete books that cost me almost a thousand dollars. a burning churning apprehension that if i want to continue playing with any level of company support ill have to shell out more hard earned money for another version every few years. betrayal may not be too strong of a word.

there are other games and other companies. they will recieve my money.

What, you guys really thought D&D would really NEVER change? You thought this would go on perpetually with endless splatbooks? Why are you surprised?

[Umbral_Arcanist]

here is my opinion based off of the five minutes (approx) of reading i did (which i know everyone is dying for):

I've read the tidbits on race and class changes and they sound promising, it seems almost like 3.0/3.5 version 2, which hopefully means the widely praised portions of 3.0/3.5 will stay and the broken/crappy bits will go. hopefully alternate rules/classes will be integrated into core (psionics and warlocks please)

i am optimistic, though i am a consumer w**** (or Companion if you prefer)